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My wife and I recently fixed up a house to rent that was previously
owned by a heavy smoker. The entire house _reeked_ of old tobacco when
we bought it. We removed all the wall-to-wall carpet, we screbbed all
walls and ceilings with bio-degradable TSP substitute, primed (with
Kilz) and painted (two coats) all walls, ceiling and trim. The oak
hardwood floors were thoroughly scrubbed. We also had professionals
come in a clean the HVAC ducts, replaced the standard air filter and
are now cleaning the broken electrostatic air cleaner in the HVAC.

However, our new tenants say there's still a stink of tobacco smoke,
and they're concerned enough for their 1-1/2 year old son's asthma that
they're saying they'll have to move out if we can't get rid of the
smell.

We can't go back and re-prime the walls and repaint with something like
B-I-N (which I discovered doing some research in the newsgroup). What
other _reliable_ options do I have for abating the old smokey stench
the tenants say is in the house?

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On 12 Jul 2006 12:56:34 -0700, "Kyle" wrote:

My wife and I recently fixed up a house to rent that was previously
owned by a heavy smoker. The entire house _reeked_ of old tobacco when
we bought it. We removed all the wall-to-wall carpet, we screbbed all
walls and ceilings with bio-degradable TSP substitute, primed (with
Kilz) and painted (two coats) all walls, ceiling and trim. The oak
hardwood floors were thoroughly scrubbed. We also had professionals
come in a clean the HVAC ducts, replaced the standard air filter and
are now cleaning the broken electrostatic air cleaner in the HVAC.

However, our new tenants say there's still a stink of tobacco smoke,
and they're concerned enough for their 1-1/2 year old son's asthma that
they're saying they'll have to move out if we can't get rid of the
smell.

We can't go back and re-prime the walls and repaint with something like
B-I-N (which I discovered doing some research in the newsgroup). What
other _reliable_ options do I have for abating the old smokey stench
the tenants say is in the house?


I would consider a through clean of the frig, freezer, vacuum cleaning
frig coils, defrost, etc. A heavy smoker, over time can have a
freezer with nicotin traces.

Oren


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Kyle wrote:
My wife and I recently fixed up a house to rent that was previously
owned by a heavy smoker. The entire house _reeked_ of old tobacco when
we bought it. We removed all the wall-to-wall carpet, we screbbed all
walls and ceilings with bio-degradable TSP substitute, primed (with
Kilz) and painted (two coats) all walls, ceiling and trim. The oak
hardwood floors were thoroughly scrubbed. We also had professionals
come in a clean the HVAC ducts, replaced the standard air filter and
are now cleaning the broken electrostatic air cleaner in the HVAC.

However, our new tenants say there's still a stink of tobacco smoke,
and they're concerned enough for their 1-1/2 year old son's asthma
that they're saying they'll have to move out if we can't get rid of
the smell.

We can't go back and re-prime the walls and repaint with something
like B-I-N (which I discovered doing some research in the newsgroup).
What other _reliable_ options do I have for abating the old smokey
stench the tenants say is in the house?


Encourage them to move. Sound like trouble-makers to me.


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"Kyle" wrote in message
oups.com...
My wife and I recently fixed up a house to rent that was previously
owned by a heavy smoker. The entire house _reeked_ of old tobacco when
we bought it. We removed all the wall-to-wall carpet, we screbbed all
walls and ceilings with bio-degradable TSP substitute, primed (with
Kilz) and painted (two coats) all walls, ceiling and trim. The oak
hardwood floors were thoroughly scrubbed. We also had professionals
come in a clean the HVAC ducts, replaced the standard air filter and
are now cleaning the broken electrostatic air cleaner in the HVAC.

However, our new tenants say there's still a stink of tobacco smoke,
and they're concerned enough for their 1-1/2 year old son's asthma that
they're saying they'll have to move out if we can't get rid of the
smell.

We can't go back and re-prime the walls and repaint with something like
B-I-N (which I discovered doing some research in the newsgroup). What
other _reliable_ options do I have for abating the old smokey stench
the tenants say is in the house?


Fixing the electrostatic air cleaner migfht help a lot.
They use ozone to remove smoke smell after fires, from what I've read.
If this would help, you could rent an ozone generator and use it in the
house when they go on vacation. There are probably a lot of smoke
pollutants left in the ducts and other inaccessable locations.

Bob


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Default post-painting tobacco smoke abatement

An ozone generator is not recommended for residences or buildings with
people living in them as ozone levels above EPA health limits can be
produced.
http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html



"Bob" wrote in message
. ..

"Kyle" wrote in message
oups.com...
My wife and I recently fixed up a house to rent that was previously
owned by a heavy smoker. The entire house _reeked_ of old tobacco when
we bought it. We removed all the wall-to-wall carpet, we screbbed all
walls and ceilings with bio-degradable TSP substitute, primed (with
Kilz) and painted (two coats) all walls, ceiling and trim. The oak
hardwood floors were thoroughly scrubbed. We also had professionals
come in a clean the HVAC ducts, replaced the standard air filter and
are now cleaning the broken electrostatic air cleaner in the HVAC.

However, our new tenants say there's still a stink of tobacco smoke,
and they're concerned enough for their 1-1/2 year old son's asthma that
they're saying they'll have to move out if we can't get rid of the
smell.

We can't go back and re-prime the walls and repaint with something like
B-I-N (which I discovered doing some research in the newsgroup). What
other _reliable_ options do I have for abating the old smokey stench
the tenants say is in the house?


Fixing the electrostatic air cleaner migfht help a lot.
They use ozone to remove smoke smell after fires, from what I've read.
If this would help, you could rent an ozone generator and use it in the
house when they go on vacation. There are probably a lot of smoke
pollutants left in the ducts and other inaccessable locations.

Bob






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Default post-painting tobacco smoke abatement

On 12 Jul 2006 12:56:34 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "Kyle"
quickly quoth:

My wife and I recently fixed up a house to rent that was previously
owned by a heavy smoker. The entire house _reeked_ of old tobacco when
we bought it. We removed all the wall-to-wall carpet, we screbbed all
walls and ceilings with bio-degradable TSP substitute, primed (with
Kilz) and painted (two coats) all walls, ceiling and trim. The oak
hardwood floors were thoroughly scrubbed. We also had professionals
come in a clean the HVAC ducts, replaced the standard air filter and
are now cleaning the broken electrostatic air cleaner in the HVAC.


Repair the air cleaner NOW! It'll really help if there are odors in
the house.

Where in the house do they smell smoke? Any particular rooms/areas?


However, our new tenants say there's still a stink of tobacco smoke,
and they're concerned enough for their 1-1/2 year old son's asthma that
they're saying they'll have to move out if we can't get rid of the
smell.


Let them move out and continue your smoke abatement without them if
necessary. If they're opaque enough to confuse odor with asthma,
they're not your ideal tenants by any means. When (not if) the kid has
an asthma attack, one of their litigous friends will talk them into a
lawsuit against you, and you'll pay even when you show that you have
done everything right. Nobody needs that.


We can't go back and re-prime the walls and repaint with something like
B-I-N (which I discovered doing some research in the newsgroup). What
other _reliable_ options do I have for abating the old smokey stench
the tenants say is in the house?


Do you smoke? If so, you're out of luck. You'll never smell anything.
If not, does the house smell like smoke? If not, tell them you've
tried everything AND LET THEM MOVE OUT!

When I quit smoking 19 years ago, I got new carpeting and padding,
washed the walls, ceilings, drapes, and inside and outside of the
cupboards and closets. After a few weeks, the smell was gone, and I
have a -picky- nose. I can't stand to go inside a home which has had
smoke damage from a fire even after supposed renovation. Cigarette and
cigar smoke is much less piquant, luckily.

This new house I bought 4 years ago had a heavy smoker in it before
me. It was horrible to walk into. I had a cleaning service come in and
do the walls. They forgot to do the little office off the garage and
it still reeks, but I seldom go in there. Good primer and paint cover
what small amount of odor it has after cleaning.

TIP: Don't forget the closets and small niches, inside the cupboards,
attics, basements, etc. Everything exposed to smoke will smell forever
unless washed and painted. Shellac helps exposed wood if you don't
want paint on it.

One last thing: if there are any openings or crevices into the areas
behind the walls, smoke will have found its way there. Caulk every
tiny opening into the house well. Sash windows hide some of these
cavities.

G'luck!


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Which is why I suggested doing it while they were gone. Q.E.D.

Bob

"Li" wrote in message
...
An ozone generator is not recommended for residences or buildings with
people living in them as ozone levels above EPA health limits can be
produced.
http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html



"Bob" wrote in message
. ..

"Kyle" wrote in message
oups.com...
My wife and I recently fixed up a house to rent that was previously
owned by a heavy smoker. The entire house _reeked_ of old tobacco when
we bought it. We removed all the wall-to-wall carpet, we screbbed all
walls and ceilings with bio-degradable TSP substitute, primed (with
Kilz) and painted (two coats) all walls, ceiling and trim. The oak
hardwood floors were thoroughly scrubbed. We also had professionals
come in a clean the HVAC ducts, replaced the standard air filter and
are now cleaning the broken electrostatic air cleaner in the HVAC.

However, our new tenants say there's still a stink of tobacco smoke,
and they're concerned enough for their 1-1/2 year old son's asthma that
they're saying they'll have to move out if we can't get rid of the
smell.

We can't go back and re-prime the walls and repaint with something like
B-I-N (which I discovered doing some research in the newsgroup). What
other _reliable_ options do I have for abating the old smokey stench
the tenants say is in the house?


Fixing the electrostatic air cleaner migfht help a lot.
They use ozone to remove smoke smell after fires, from what I've read.
If this would help, you could rent an ozone generator and use it in the
house when they go on vacation. There are probably a lot of smoke
pollutants left in the ducts and other inaccessable locations.

Bob






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go back reprime with BIN and repaint. what did you do with the floors?
might seal with outdoor polyurethane.

The smoke odor gets in the wood and even concrete
soon smoking will die out, just as assuredly as it kills people
today...


You might as well fix this and ONLY rent to non smokers. Yoiur NOT
fixing it for the tenant you are investing in your future!

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You now know what all landlords should know, that smoking is highly
destructive to real property.

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Kyle wrote:
My wife and I recently fixed up a house to rent that was previously
owned by a heavy smoker. The entire house _reeked_ of old tobacco when
we bought it. We removed all the wall-to-wall carpet, we screbbed all
walls and ceilings with bio-degradable TSP substitute, primed (with
Kilz) and painted (two coats) all walls, ceiling and trim. The oak
hardwood floors were thoroughly scrubbed. We also had professionals
come in a clean the HVAC ducts, replaced the standard air filter and
are now cleaning the broken electrostatic air cleaner in the HVAC.

However, our new tenants say there's still a stink of tobacco smoke,
and they're concerned enough for their 1-1/2 year old son's asthma that
they're saying they'll have to move out if we can't get rid of the
smell.

We can't go back and re-prime the walls and repaint with something like
B-I-N (which I discovered doing some research in the newsgroup). What
other _reliable_ options do I have for abating the old smokey stench
the tenants say is in the house?


Wow! Lucky you! Where did you find these tenants? After all of that
cleaning, any lingering odor would almost have to be outside the living
space it seems. Perhaps, if it is doable, putting caulk along all of
the baseboards would eliminate the air movement through wall spaces.
Just a thought. Another option, that I wouldn't be very inclined to do
myself, would be to call up a restoration company that cleans up after
fires - tell them what you have done already and see what they have to
offer. A kid with asthma, huh?


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Default post-painting tobacco smoke abatement

the nose knows. ask them where the smell is worse and go from there.

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Norminn wrote:

Wow! Lucky you! Where did you find these tenants?


Fools of a feather flock together.

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Why don't they build a giant ozone generator and use it to stop global
warming?


"Bob" wrote in message
. ..
Which is why I suggested doing it while they were gone. Q.E.D.

Bob

"Li" wrote in message
...
An ozone generator is not recommended for residences or buildings with
people living in them as ozone levels above EPA health limits can be
produced.
http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html



"Bob" wrote in message
. ..

"Kyle" wrote in message
oups.com...
My wife and I recently fixed up a house to rent that was previously
owned by a heavy smoker. The entire house _reeked_ of old tobacco when
we bought it. We removed all the wall-to-wall carpet, we screbbed all
walls and ceilings with bio-degradable TSP substitute, primed (with
Kilz) and painted (two coats) all walls, ceiling and trim. The oak
hardwood floors were thoroughly scrubbed. We also had professionals
come in a clean the HVAC ducts, replaced the standard air filter and
are now cleaning the broken electrostatic air cleaner in the HVAC.

However, our new tenants say there's still a stink of tobacco smoke,
and they're concerned enough for their 1-1/2 year old son's asthma
that
they're saying they'll have to move out if we can't get rid of the
smell.

We can't go back and re-prime the walls and repaint with something
like
B-I-N (which I discovered doing some research in the newsgroup). What
other _reliable_ options do I have for abating the old smokey stench
the tenants say is in the house?


Fixing the electrostatic air cleaner migfht help a lot.
They use ozone to remove smoke smell after fires, from what I've read.
If this would help, you could rent an ozone generator and use it in the
house when they go on vacation. There are probably a lot of smoke
pollutants left in the ducts and other inaccessable locations.

Bob








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Bob wrote:

Why don't they build a giant ozone generator and use it to stop global
warming?


Somebody already did that--it's called "The Sun".


"Bob" wrote in message
. ..
Which is why I suggested doing it while they were gone. Q.E.D.

Bob

"Li" wrote in message
...
An ozone generator is not recommended for residences or buildings with
people living in them as ozone levels above EPA health limits can be
produced.
http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html



"Bob" wrote in message
. ..

"Kyle" wrote in message
oups.com...
My wife and I recently fixed up a house to rent that was previously
owned by a heavy smoker. The entire house _reeked_ of old tobacco
when we bought it. We removed all the wall-to-wall carpet, we
screbbed all walls and ceilings with bio-degradable TSP substitute,
primed (with Kilz) and painted (two coats) all walls, ceiling and
trim. The oak hardwood floors were thoroughly scrubbed. We also had
professionals come in a clean the HVAC ducts, replaced the standard
air filter and are now cleaning the broken electrostatic air cleaner
in the HVAC.

However, our new tenants say there's still a stink of tobacco smoke,
and they're concerned enough for their 1-1/2 year old son's asthma
that
they're saying they'll have to move out if we can't get rid of the
smell.

We can't go back and re-prime the walls and repaint with something
like
B-I-N (which I discovered doing some research in the newsgroup). What
other _reliable_ options do I have for abating the old smokey stench
the tenants say is in the house?


Fixing the electrostatic air cleaner migfht help a lot.
They use ozone to remove smoke smell after fires, from what I've read.
If this would help, you could rent an ozone generator and use it in
the house when they go on vacation. There are probably a lot of smoke
pollutants left in the ducts and other inaccessable locations.

Bob







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to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
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Kyle wrote:
My wife and I recently fixed up a house to rent that was previously
owned by a heavy smoker. The entire house _reeked_ of old tobacco when
we bought it...


Thanks to all who made CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions and observations (yeah,
I'm lookin' at you, Nightcrawler!).

There are three things that may make the tenants seem a little more
reasonable to y'all:
(1) I have what's known as IgA deficiency (I'm lacking antibodies
in places like the lining of my nasal passages) and therefore can sit
in a room with two stinky cat litter boxes and not smell a thing;
therefore my sense of "no, I can't smell anything" is not to be
relied on. While my wife and I worked on the house with the windows
open because of paint fumes and the like and there wasn't really a
chance for the smoke stink to build up while we were there...I will say
when we would get there first thing in the morning, you could smell
that old stink. So the tenants ain't makin' it up.
(2) The lady tenant is a pediatrician and instructor at Johns Hopkins
School of Medicine, so she's got some credibility and is not Ms.
Crackpot McWeirdo who got her medical knowledge from the
conspiracy-theory sites on the Intarwebs.
(3) When reviewing the tenants' application, we spoke with their
previous two landlords, who had only glowing things to say about them
and that they never made frivolous requests.

We pulled the cleaner assembly out of the electrostatic cleaner and it
immediately made a difference. I thought it was excessive, but my wife
bought a pretty pricey air purifier for the tenants.

The hardwood floors were covered with wall-to-wall carpet, so I think
the scrubbing with wood floor cleaner would be sufficient to get
whatever little amount of smoke made it through carpet and padding.
Cracks and crevices we're just going to have to live with, as well as
the exposed joists in the back of the basement and other places where
smoke could have gotten.

My wife called GE (the maker of this particular electrostatic cleaner)
and our best guess is this unit is ~30 years old. We either have to
replace it with another electrostatic cleaner or come up with some way
of scrubbing the tar and nicotine build-up off the filter frame as well
as the inside of the unit. I think I'll also have to find a flat
piece of HEPA filter material which I could fit into the filter frame.

Repainting the house is NOT an option at this point; but perhaps when
the tenants move out at the end of the lease. Replacing the HVAC is
also not an option since it is only 8 years old.



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"Bob" wrote in message
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Why don't they build a giant ozone generator and use it to stop global
warming?


Ozone does nothing for CO2. It can oxidize smoke smells.

Bob


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"Kyle" wrote in message
We pulled the cleaner assembly out of the electrostatic cleaner and it
immediately made a difference. I thought it was excessive, but my wife
bought a pretty pricey air purifier for the tenants.


My wife called GE (the maker of this particular electrostatic cleaner)
and our best guess is this unit is ~30 years old. We either have to
replace it with another electrostatic cleaner or come up with some way
of scrubbing the tar and nicotine build-up off the filter frame as well
as the inside of the unit. I think I'll also have to find a flat
piece of HEPA filter material which I could fit into the filter frame.


Normal cleaning of electrostatic air cleaners is done by running the filters
through the dishwasher. This should get the crud out of it. Does the filter
work properly? It should have a test button which causes a spark zap
if the electronics are good.

Bob


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Bob wrote:
Normal cleaning of electrostatic air cleaners is done by running the filters
through the dishwasher. This should get the crud out of it. Does the filter
work properly? It should have a test button which causes a spark zap
if the electronics are good.


Ah, but Bob, you're assuming this is a NORMAL electrostatic cleaner.
This cleaner was made by GE, who says they haven't made something like
this in a couple decades. My guess is it's been non-functional for at
least 5-10 years. GE provides absolutely ZERO, zilch, nada support for
this unit because they don't make household HVAC cleaners. It took 'em
six hours longer than forever to figure out they even made this unit at
one time. Geniuses, the bunch of 'em, God bless 'em all.

The unit is much larger than a standard air filter assembly, and there
is a metal triple-layer frame. The outer layer on each side hinges open
to accept a layer of some sort of special filter material in addition
to there apparently being a small static charge run through the middle
layer. The previous owner just had what looked like fine fiberglass
mats sandwiched in between the metal layers.

My wife has scrubbed the metal assembly first with Dirtex (which did a
fabulous job getting the tobacco crud off the metal window frames in
the house) and then with hot water and bleach. Then I've cut a larger
piece of HEPA filter material down to sandwich in the assembly.

Next step: an HVAC company we've used in the past and trusted is coming
in to clean the AC coil - they're betting there's a nasty build-up
there, too.

God, this is costing waaay too much. And smokers like drawing this
nasty crud into their lungs because...?

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wrote:
go back reprime with BIN and repaint. what did you do with the floors?
might seal with outdoor polyurethane.


We will possibly do that when these tenants move out - hopefully not
until the end of their lease!

The floors we scrubbed by hand with Murphy's floor cleaner, and they
seem to be OK.

The smoke odor gets in the wood and even concrete


Don't I know it. My father and I did an abatement in my aunt's house
when she quit smoking just before her first fight with breast cancer.
We got it all, and the house was fine...nothing nearly as persistent
and nasty as this. But when the walls are a dingy semi-tan white
rectangles on them from where a wall hanging was for 25 years, you know
you're in for fun.

soon smoking will die out, just as assuredly as it kills people
today...


We can only hope. Not just for the welfare of those of us who can't
handle being around smokers (I have a minor deficiency in my immune
system where I cannot remotely tolerate vegetation smoke such as
tobacco or burning autumn leaves), but for the health and well-being of
those who are killing themselves one drag at a time.

You might as well fix this and ONLY rent to non smokers. Yoiur NOT
fixing it for the tenant you are investing in your future!


Exactly why we bought this house. We're not in it to make money off the
tenants' rent, but to have their rent cover our mortage and expenses of
ownership while we build equity.

And while you cannot legally turn down a tenant who is a smoker, you
can put a clause in the lease that prohibits smoking of any kind inside
the house by either the tenants or visitors.

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"Kyle" wrote in message

And while you cannot legally turn down a tenant who is a smoker, you
can put a clause in the lease that prohibits smoking of any kind inside
the house by either the tenants or visitors.


Is this really true? |I've never heard of laws prohibiting discrimination
against smokers.

Bob




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"Kyle" wrote in message
ups.com...
Bob wrote:
Normal cleaning of electrostatic air cleaners is done by running the filters
through the dishwasher. This should get the crud out of it. Does the filter
work properly? It should have a test button which causes a spark zap
if the electronics are good.


Ah, but Bob, you're assuming this is a NORMAL electrostatic cleaner.
This cleaner was made by GE, who says they haven't made something like
this in a couple decades. My guess is it's been non-functional for at
least 5-10 years. GE provides absolutely ZERO, zilch, nada support for
this unit because they don't make household HVAC cleaners. It took 'em
six hours longer than forever to figure out they even made this unit at
one time. Geniuses, the bunch of 'em, God bless 'em all.

The unit is much larger than a standard air filter assembly, and there
is a metal triple-layer frame. The outer layer on each side hinges open
to accept a layer of some sort of special filter material in addition
to there apparently being a small static charge run through the middle
layer. The previous owner just had what looked like fine fiberglass
mats sandwiched in between the metal layers.

My wife has scrubbed the metal assembly first with Dirtex (which did a
fabulous job getting the tobacco crud off the metal window frames in
the house) and then with hot water and bleach. Then I've cut a larger
piece of HEPA filter material down to sandwich in the assembly.

Next step: an HVAC company we've used in the past and trusted is coming
in to clean the AC coil - they're betting there's a nasty build-up
there, too.

God, this is costing waaay too much. And smokers like drawing this
nasty crud into their lungs because...?


I have an old GE "electronic air cleaner" that functions like, and looks
similar to the commonly seen honeywell units. I assumed that was what
you had. If I were you, I'd get a honeywell or similar unit installed, and
keep your tenants.

Is it possible to get furnace and ducts treated with ozone? It would seem like
this would be a good option in your case.

Bob


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Default post-painting tobacco smoke abatement

I wrote:
And while you cannot legally turn down a tenant who is a smoker, you
can put a clause in the lease that prohibits smoking of any kind inside
the house by either the tenants or visitors.


So Bob asked:
Is this really true? |I've never heard of laws prohibiting discrimination
against smokers.



Not specifically with regards to smokers, but my understanding from
consulting with other landlords is you are not allowed to discriminate
against any _reasonably_qualified_ potential tenant. This includes not
being able to deny a qualified applicant on the basis of their personal
habits, including smoking, unless those habits pose a public health
risk, such as leaving trash in the yard and the like.

Now, if you want to turn down a smoker as a tenant and say that their
being a smoker is the reason, you could make the argument that the
smoker poses a potential hazard to the house and a danger to your
investment - how many house fires were begun last year because of
careless smoking? - but you would be involved in a costly legal process
at that point and someone could still argue that there are ways to
protect yourself in that case.

One possible way of protecting yourself legally and not having to worry
about discrimination claims is to set a different scale for the
security deposit (say, double what it would be for a comparable
non-smoker tenant) on the basis that smokers have a higher probability
of causing damage to the property than non-smokers...smoke permeation
of surfaces, burns in floors/carpets, etc. not to mention the
above-referenced fire hazard. The downside is that you may find a
tenant who's a smoker who's willing to plunk down that super-sized
security deposit and then you're stuck with a tenant you don't really
want and have to deal with the aftereffects.

FWIW...

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