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Contract fell thru - need advice
It turns out the contractor we hired to paint our house is unreliable.
He managed to get the primer on and some of the trim. The problem is that the can states that the top coat must be put on within 30 days. Is it absolutely necessary to stick to 30 days time limit? What would happen if it is 1 or 2 weeks over? |
Contract fell thru - need advice
I would be more concerned that the unreliable painter would appear in
a week or two wanting to be paid for the whole job. It's called a mechanic's lien that starts when he does any work on the job. Unless you have a written contract which states that failure to appear constitutes abandonment of the job, you are at risk. Unreliable is a value judgment on your part that will not hold up in court if he sues you for the entire contract price. On 7 Jul 2006 06:28:22 -0700, " wrote: It turns out the contractor we hired to paint our house is unreliable. He managed to get the primer on and some of the trim. The problem is that the can states that the top coat must be put on within 30 days. Is it absolutely necessary to stick to 30 days time limit? What would happen if it is 1 or 2 weeks over? |
Contract fell thru - need advice
wrote in message ups.com... It turns out the contractor we hired to paint our house is unreliable. He managed to get the primer on and some of the trim. The problem is that the can states that the top coat must be put on within 30 days. Is it absolutely necessary to stick to 30 days time limit? What would happen if it is 1 or 2 weeks over? Paint can oxidize over time. The 30 days will vary depending on weather, exposure, how good the bas is, etc. Hard to say, but you can have from 30 to 130 days with no adverse effects. I had a spot that I primed and never got to paint until the following year and it was and still is OK. |
Contract fell thru - need advice
On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 08:37:35 -0500, Thomas Kendrick
wrote: I would be more concerned that the unreliable painter would appear in a week or two wanting to be paid for the whole job. It's called a mechanic's lien that starts when he does any work on the job. Unless you have a written contract which states that failure to appear constitutes abandonment of the job, you are at risk. Unreliable is a value judgment on your part that will not hold up in court if he sues you for the entire contract price. And it goes without saying that if you refuse to pay, he can sell your home and get his money from the proceeds. But the good thing is that he will have to give you the balance - after deducting all the expenses of the sale. On 7 Jul 2006 06:28:22 -0700, " wrote: It turns out the contractor we hired to paint our house is unreliable. He managed to get the primer on and some of the trim. The problem is that the can states that the top coat must be put on within 30 days. Is it absolutely necessary to stick to 30 days time limit? What would happen if it is 1 or 2 weeks over? |
Contract fell thru - need advice
JimL wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 08:37:35 -0500, Thomas Kendrick wrote: I would be more concerned that the unreliable painter would appear in a week or two wanting to be paid for the whole job. It's called a mechanic's lien that starts when he does any work on the job. Unless you have a written contract which states that failure to appear constitutes abandonment of the job, you are at risk. Unreliable is a value judgment on your part that will not hold up in court if he sues you for the entire contract price. And it goes without saying that if you refuse to pay, he can sell your home and get his money from the proceeds. But the good thing is that he will have to give you the balance - after deducting all the expenses of the sale. A lien doesn't give him the right to foreclose, merely to be paid when/if the property is sold. -- dadiOH ____________________________ dadiOH's dandies v3.06... ....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico |
Contract fell thru - need advice
On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 15:10:34 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote: JimL wrote: On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 08:37:35 -0500, Thomas Kendrick wrote: I would be more concerned that the unreliable painter would appear in a week or two wanting to be paid for the whole job. It's called a mechanic's lien that starts when he does any work on the job. Unless you have a written contract which states that failure to appear constitutes abandonment of the job, you are at risk. Unreliable is a value judgment on your part that will not hold up in court if he sues you for the entire contract price. And it goes without saying that if you refuse to pay, he can sell your home and get his money from the proceeds. But the good thing is that he will have to give you the balance - after deducting all the expenses of the sale. A lien doesn't give him the right to foreclose, merely to be paid when/if the property is sold. Wrong again. |
Contract fell thru - need advice
Find out what primer was used and go read a label, some state 6 months.
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Contract fell thru - need advice
On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 10:54:35 -0500, JimL wrote:
A lien doesn't give him the right to foreclose, merely to be paid when/if the property is sold. Wrong again. How's that? In NV we Have Homestead Exemption that explicitly prohibits your home from being sold for debt you owe. A lien is just a cloud on the property and needs to be cleared before sale. Oren |
Contract fell thru - need advice
On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 09:57:45 -0700, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 10:54:35 -0500, JimL wrote: A lien doesn't give him the right to foreclose, merely to be paid when/if the property is sold. Wrong again. How's that? In NV we Have Homestead Exemption that explicitly prohibits your home from being sold for debt you owe. A lien is just a cloud on the property and needs to be cleared before sale. Oren There may be exceptions to what I said in each of the many jurisdictions, but that doesn't change the general rule which is true in most jurisdictions in this country. "MECHANICS LIEN - A claim against real estate made by a contractor, subcontractor, or supplier of building materials who contributed to improvements built on the real estate. A mechanics lien, if enforced, permits the party who filed the claim to force a sale of the real estate to pay the claim. " |
Contract fell thru - need advice
On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:16:54 -0500, JimL wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 09:57:45 -0700, Oren wrote: On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 10:54:35 -0500, JimL wrote: A lien doesn't give him the right to foreclose, merely to be paid when/if the property is sold. Wrong again. How's that? In NV we Have Homestead Exemption that explicitly prohibits your home from being sold for debt you owe. A lien is just a cloud on the property and needs to be cleared before sale. Oren There may be exceptions to what I said in each of the many jurisdictions, but that doesn't change the general rule which is true in most jurisdictions in this country. "MECHANICS LIEN - A claim against real estate made by a contractor, subcontractor, or supplier of building materials who contributed to improvements built on the real estate. A mechanics lien, if enforced, permits the party who filed the claim to force a sale of the real estate to pay the claim. " A contractor will have to stand in line; after mortgage lenders. So if I supply the paint, what is the point except I owe him for labor, right? If everyone owed money today; forced a sale, we would have night court with long lines. A contract breach doesn't turn into foreclosure... promissory note to the bank is another issue. Oren |
Contract fell thru - need advice
On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 12:05:24 -0700, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:16:54 -0500, JimL wrote: On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 09:57:45 -0700, Oren wrote: On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 10:54:35 -0500, JimL wrote: A lien doesn't give him the right to foreclose, merely to be paid when/if the property is sold. Wrong again. How's that? In NV we Have Homestead Exemption that explicitly prohibits your home from being sold for debt you owe. A lien is just a cloud on the property and needs to be cleared before sale. Oren There may be exceptions to what I said in each of the many jurisdictions, but that doesn't change the general rule which is true in most jurisdictions in this country. "MECHANICS LIEN - A claim against real estate made by a contractor, subcontractor, or supplier of building materials who contributed to improvements built on the real estate. A mechanics lien, if enforced, permits the party who filed the claim to force a sale of the real estate to pay the claim. " A contractor will have to stand in line; after mortgage lenders. So if I supply the paint, what is the point except I owe him for labor, right? If everyone owed money today; forced a sale, we would have night court with long lines. A contract breach doesn't turn into foreclosure... promissory note to the bank is another issue. Oren I wish I lived in your world, Oren. You have such an innocent view of things. I'm sure if I took the time, I could find you where some contractor sold a million dollar property to satisfy a $500 bill that the owner ignored. It's old news and old law. Right now, what is hot is the home owners association selling million dollar homes because owners didn't pay a $150 maintenance fee. |
Contract fell thru - need advice
On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:34:34 -0500, JimL wrote:
A contractor will have to stand in line; after mortgage lenders. So if I supply the paint, what is the point except I owe him for labor, right? If everyone owed money today; forced a sale, we would have night court with long lines. A contract breach doesn't turn into foreclosure... promissory note to the bank is another issue. Oren I wish I lived in your world, Oren. You have such an innocent view of things. And a hard head. I'm not taking away from the right of the contractor to do what is lawful in Civil Court. If that's innocent I'm guilty. I'm sure if I took the time, I could find you where some contractor sold a million dollar property to satisfy a $500 bill that the owner ignored. I'm not picking it apart. You said before wrong and then see the exception, okay your guy won. It's old news and old law. Right now, what is hot is the home owners association selling million dollar homes because owners didn't pay a $150 maintenance fee. Our association has been fining a guy in our area for a very long time. The fines, and I guess interest grows each year. It was over the color of the paint in the fascia board. Bottom line - they cannot foreclose, but will have the lien when he tries to sell. The guy will loose in the end. So we have exemptions and some states don't. Oren |
Contract fell thru - need advice
Oren wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 10:54:35 -0500, JimL wrote: A lien doesn't give him the right to foreclose, merely to be paid when/if the property is sold. Wrong again. How's that? In NV we Have Homestead Exemption that explicitly prohibits your home from being sold for debt you owe. A lien is just a cloud on the property and needs to be cleared before sale. We have (almost) the same homestead rule in Texas. The property can, however, be seized and sold for three types of debt: 1. Incurred for the original purchase; 2. Taxes; 3. For improvements to the property. Plus, there are requirements that must be met before the property can even be considered to be a homestead (you have to actually LIVE there, for one). |
Contract fell thru - need advice
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Contract fell thru - need advice
On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:01:03 -0700, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:34:34 -0500, JimL wrote: A contractor will have to stand in line; after mortgage lenders. So if I supply the paint, what is the point except I owe him for labor, right? If everyone owed money today; forced a sale, we would have night court with long lines. A contract breach doesn't turn into foreclosure... promissory note to the bank is another issue. Oren I wish I lived in your world, Oren. You have such an innocent view of things. And a hard head. I'm not taking away from the right of the contractor to do what is lawful in Civil Court. If that's innocent I'm guilty. Even worse, In my state, there is no court action required. The whole thing from beginning to end (sale) can be done without any court being involved.. I'm sure if I took the time, I could find you where some contractor sold a million dollar property to satisfy a $500 bill that the owner ignored. I'm not picking it apart. You said before wrong and then see the exception, okay your guy won. It's old news and old law. Right now, what is hot is the home owners association selling million dollar homes because owners didn't pay a $150 maintenance fee. Our association has been fining a guy in our area for a very long time. The fines, and I guess interest grows each year. It was over the color of the paint in the fascia board. Bottom line - they cannot foreclose, but will have the lien when he tries to sell. The guy will loose in the end. In my state, they have sold many homes causing great surprise and heartache to the owners. The law of the land right now in my state is that they can do that legally. Our state has just added new redemption rights and more notice provisions, but it is still legal to sell at foreclosure for not paying annual association dues. Of course, it also clouds the title..... So we have exemptions and some states don't. Oren |
Contract fell thru - need advice
Norminn wrote: wrote: It turns out the contractor we hired to paint our house is unreliable. He managed to get the primer on and some of the trim. The problem is that the can states that the top coat must be put on within 30 days. Is it absolutely necessary to stick to 30 days time limit? What would happen if it is 1 or 2 weeks over? Have you had contact with him, tried, been given a reason for delay? My unscientific opinion is that a couple of weeks won't hurt. Much longer, and it might get dirty or oxidized a bit. Got a written bid with a time stated for completion? Satisfied with his work otherwise? A lot would depend on issues you have not stated. I don't trust AHR for legal advice, but the paint label is "on your side" - job needs to be completed. Unless he dropped dead, he should have contacted you to explain the delay - good reason for hiring someone else. I'd be tempted to send him a certified letter stating that if the job is not completed by x date (30 days?) another painter will be hired. Inform him that he will only be paid the difference between the original contract and whatever the new painter charges you. Why should you have to pay twice for the same job? If you have a new painter give you an estimate to complete the job there's no way the first painter could recover his entire fee, since he didn't complete the job. At least that's the way it worked in small claims court in NY the one day I observed. I watched case after case where the judge asked if the homeowner had a completion estimate from new contractor, and then the judge gave the original contractor the difference between the new completion estimate and the original contract. In two cases, the original contractor had to pay the homeowner! As always, however, YMMV. Hilary |
Contract fell thru - need advice
On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 15:42:18 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote: Oren wrote: On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 10:54:35 -0500, JimL wrote: A lien doesn't give him the right to foreclose, merely to be paid when/if the property is sold. Wrong again. How's that? In NV we Have Homestead Exemption that explicitly prohibits your home from being sold for debt you owe. A lien is just a cloud on the property and needs to be cleared before sale. We have (almost) the same homestead rule in Texas. The property can, however, be seized and sold for three types of debt: Florida's Homestead Exemption (moons ago) exempted the first 25K from property taxes. 1. Incurred for the original purchase; Promissory Note (s). 2. Taxes; IRS and state... 3. For improvements to the property. Funds not paid to the local boards. like permits.. Plus, there are requirements that must be met before the property can even be considered to be a homestead (you have to actually LIVE there, for one). As I do, never claimed it for rentals. Oren |
Contract fell thru - need advice
On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 15:42:18 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote: Oren wrote: On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 10:54:35 -0500, JimL wrote: A lien doesn't give him the right to foreclose, merely to be paid when/if the property is sold. Wrong again. How's that? In NV we Have Homestead Exemption that explicitly prohibits your home from being sold for debt you owe. A lien is just a cloud on the property and needs to be cleared before sale. We have (almost) the same homestead rule in Texas. The property can, however, be seized and sold for three types of debt: 1. Incurred for the original purchase; 2. Taxes; 3. For improvements to the property. Plus, there are requirements that must be met before the property can even be considered to be a homestead (you have to actually LIVE there, for one). No. You don't have to live there to establish it as your homestead. However, you do, if confronted, have to prove your 'intention' to live there and make it your homestead. Maybe drill a well or lay out stakes for a foundation or some such action on your part. |
Contract fell thru - need advice
JimL ) said...
There may be exceptions to what I said in each of the many jurisdictions, but that doesn't change the general rule which is true in most jurisdictions in this country. "MECHANICS LIEN - A claim against real estate made by a contractor, subcontractor, or supplier of building materials who contributed to improvements built on the real estate. A mechanics lien, if enforced, permits the party who filed the claim to force a sale of the real estate to pay the claim. " Only if there is no other title on the property. If you hold a first mortgage, the lender of that COMES FIRST and they are the only one who can force the sale of the property. A mechanic's lien waits in line, so if the mortgage lender is happy with the situation and is not interested in foreclosing, the contractor can wait until the cows come home. If you ever pay off the mortgage before selling the property, the mortgage is discharged and any other interests move up the queue, possibly putting the the contractor in first position, who could then force a forclosure if you are not paying them. Should you sell the property, all interests must be discharged before the deed can be transferred, so the contractor would have to be paid or somehow made happy enough to discharge the lien before the sale could be completed. If you refuse to do what is necessary to discharge the lien, then the purchaser of the property will have grounds to start an action against you. OBdisclaimer I am not a lawyer, but I sometimes play one on a local talk radio show! ;-) /OBdisclaimer After building my own home, I have had some personal experience in this area. The company I contracted with to install our HVAC automatically filed a lien on the property the day after I signed with them. The contract stipulated that NOTHING was payable until 3 months after completion, when it could be paid in full without interest, or billed through our natural gas bill over 12 years at almost that rate of interest (I wanted to use the first option!). I only found out about this when our construction mortgage was being processed. The initial draw was to pay off and discharge the vendor take back morgtage on the lot. Since the lien was there, the lien would move into first position. I was able to successfully argue with the contractor that they had no right to register the lien until the money became due. To get through the first draw on the construction mortgage, a postponement had to be issued on the lien (I was still arguing about whether the lien should even be there) so that the new lender could move into first position of interest on the property when the original mortgage on the lot was discharged. In the end, as I said, the lien was discharged at the contractor's expense AND they reimbursed me for my lawyer's fees for handling the postponement. -- Calvin Henry-Cotnam "I really think Canada should get over to Iraq as quickly as possible" - Paul Martin - April 30, 2003 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: if replying by email, remove "remove." and ".invalid" -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Contract fell thru - need advice
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Contract fell thru - need advice
dadiOH wrote:
JimL wrote: On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 08:37:35 -0500, Thomas Kendrick wrote: I would be more concerned that the unreliable painter would appear in a week or two wanting to be paid for the whole job. It's called a mechanic's lien that starts when he does any work on the job. Unless you have a written contract which states that failure to appear constitutes abandonment of the job, you are at risk. Unreliable is a value judgment on your part that will not hold up in court if he sues you for the entire contract price. And it goes without saying that if you refuse to pay, he can sell your home and get his money from the proceeds. But the good thing is that he will have to give you the balance - after deducting all the expenses of the sale. A lien doesn't give him the right to foreclose, merely to be paid when/if the property is sold. That varies from state to state and by property type. If you need legal advice go get it from a lawyer. Do not take the word of anyone hear because our advice is worth about what you are paying for it. -- Tom Horne "This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison |
Contract fell thru - need advice
Oren wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 10:54:35 -0500, JimL wrote: A lien doesn't give him the right to foreclose, merely to be paid when/if the property is sold. Wrong again. How's that? In NV we Have Homestead Exemption that explicitly prohibits your home from being sold for debt you owe. A lien is just a cloud on the property and needs to be cleared before sale. Oren Oren Now your closer to correct because you have specified the state under which the law will be applied. You do know that the Nevada law is not identical to the law in the other forty nine states don't you? -- Tom Horne "This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison |
Contract fell thru - need advice
You only got Fu@ked a little, hire someone else to finish the job.
Check out www.MySturdyBuiltGarage.com for a guy that hired a really bad contractor. EVERYONE should read the tips section of this site, PRIOR to hiring a contractor. Good Luck! wrote: It turns out the contractor we hired to paint our house is unreliable. He managed to get the primer on and some of the trim. The problem is that the can states that the top coat must be put on within 30 days. Is it absolutely necessary to stick to 30 days time limit? What would happen if it is 1 or 2 weeks over? |
Contract fell thru - need advice
On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 16:03:52 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
wrote: Oren wrote: On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 10:54:35 -0500, JimL wrote: A lien doesn't give him the right to foreclose, merely to be paid when/if the property is sold. Wrong again. How's that? In NV we Have Homestead Exemption that explicitly prohibits your home from being sold for debt you owe. A lien is just a cloud on the property and needs to be cleared before sale. Oren Oren Now your closer to correct because you have specified the state under which the law will be applied. You do know that the Nevada law is not identical to the law in the other forty nine states don't you? Yes, ever jurisdiction is different. I've lived in four states and never once heard of a person owed money being able to take a person's home (foreclose) without some notice, civil action, etc. I understand a lien, but I do not comprehend a contractor that is owed money being able to jump ahead in line of a mortgage lender that has interest in the property. Foreclosu "The legal process by which an owner's right to a property is terminated, usually due to default. Typically involves a forced sale of the property at public auction, with the proceeds being applied to the mortgage debt. " Lien: "A mechanics' lien claimant can sue to have the real estate sold at auction and recover the debt from the proceeds. Because property with a lien on it cannot be easily sold until the lien is satisfied (paid off), owners have a great incentive to pay their bills." Oren |
Contract fell thru - need advice
On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 21:12:12 GMT, Norminn
wrote: wrote: It turns out the contractor we hired to paint our house is unreliable. He managed to get the primer on and some of the trim. The problem is that the can states that the top coat must be put on within 30 days. Is it absolutely necessary to stick to 30 days time limit? What would happen if it is 1 or 2 weeks over? Have you had contact with him, tried, been given a reason for delay? My unscientific opinion is that a couple of weeks won't hurt. Much longer, and it might get dirty or oxidized a bit. Got a written bid with a time stated for completion? Satisfied with his work otherwise? A lot would depend on issues you have not stated. I don't trust AHR for legal advice, but the paint label is "on your side" - job needs to be completed. Unless he dropped dead, he should have contacted you to explain the delay - good reason for hiring someone else. I wouldn't trust AHR either, including me. But Norminn seems to make a good point. The painter knows or should know what it says on the can, and on the can it says he has to do the next coat within 30 days. You may have come here to hear that you have more than 30 days, but in your dealings with the painter, you should assume the can is right, and that a job of adequate quality can't be done unless he finishes that next coat on time. A suggestion I have never tried (In fact I hate and avoid doing business with anyone, so this is only theoretical, but it seems to make sense): If he wants two more weeks or a month, and if you're willing to do that, because he does a good job, etc, get an addendum to your contract for the extension with those terms that Thomas mentioned "Unless you have a written contract which states that failure to appear constitutes abandonment of the job, you are at risk. Unreliable is a value judgment on your part that will not hold up in court if he sues you for the entire contract price." That is, unless Thomas is off the mark get a deadline, so that when he doesn't show up the next time, you're totally free to hire someone else***. Maybe you can agree on how much is owing at this stage if he doesn't do anything more. (Maybe he did a lot of scraping and a one whole coat, and only one coat remains, in which case more than half would be owed now.) It seems to me, as the 30 day limit approaches, you have the upper hand in negotiating an addendum. Don't agree to pay more money, for example. If you want more work done, put that in a separate contract (with a deadline for starting and finishing.) ***BTW, afaik "unreliable" is subject to debate. He'll say the weather interfered, that you had no deadline, that the 30 days is put there to speed homeowners and is the most strict standard, but that in this climate with this weather, one has at least 60 days, and you had no agreement with him that he would paint every day, and he was coming back, and that his wife's sister/father died and they had to go to the funeral and make arrangements for her children. |
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