Hi,
I have recently purchased a new swimming pool heater, installed it next
to the shed in the backyard so naturally had to get electricity to it
from the main panel in the house.
I have a stab-lok panel in the house so I got a 50 amp NC0250cp bracer
that I installed in the house panel then connected the black wire and
the Red wire to each pole of the breaker the white wire to the neutral
of the panes and the Ground to the Ground I am using outdoor 6AWG wire.
I got the wire outside underground and to the shed where I installed a
new panel wired it up by connecting each Black and Reb to each main
connector of the new panel the white to the neutral bar and the ground
to the Ground bar I put in a 15amp single pole breaker for the pool
pump and a 30amp breaker for the pool heater.

with my voltmeter I cam measure 120vac when I go across neutral and
each Black and Red but when I measure across Black and Red I don't get
240vac I find that strange.

when 50amp breaker is on in the house and the 15amp breaker is on in
the shed the pomp works well but I would like to see if the 240 VAC is
ok before I connect up the pool heater.


Can you please help

with my voltmeter I cam measure 120vac when I go across neutral and
each Black and Red but when I measure across Black and Red I don't get
240vac I find that strange.

Whaddya get? At both ends of the run?

If you need to ask this, maybe you shouldn't be doing it yourself?

Richard J Kinch wrote:
with my voltmeter I cam measure 120vac when I go across neutral and
each Black and Red but when I measure across Black and Red I don't
get 240vac I find that strange.

Whaddya get? At both ends of the run?

Also how are you measuring the voltage? Are you using a modern digital
meter?


If you need to ask this, maybe you shouldn't be doing it yourself?

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

do you have 220 service in the house?
if you don't have 220 measurable at the main panel you won't get it in
the shed either.
for 220 you need two 110v hots out of phase, not just any 2 hots from a
110v main panel.
please read faq at:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/

wrote:
Hi,
I have recently purchased a new swimming pool heater, installed it next
to the shed in the backyard so naturally had to get electricity to it
from the main panel in the house.
I have a stab-lok panel in the house so I got a 50 amp NC0250cp bracer
that I installed in the house panel then connected the black wire and
the Red wire to each pole of the breaker the white wire to the neutral
of the panes and the Ground to the Ground I am using outdoor 6AWG wire.
I got the wire outside underground and to the shed where I installed a
new panel wired it up by connecting each Black and Reb to each main
connector of the new panel the white to the neutral bar and the ground
to the Ground bar I put in a 15amp single pole breaker for the pool
pump and a 30amp breaker for the pool heater.

with my voltmeter I cam measure 120vac when I go across neutral and
each Black and Red but when I measure across Black and Red I don't get
240vac I find that strange.

when 50amp breaker is on in the house and the 15amp breaker is on in
the shed the pomp works well but I would like to see if the 240 VAC is
ok before I connect up the pool heater.


Can you please help

wrote in message
oups.com...

with my voltmeter I cam measure 120vac when I go across neutral and
each Black and Red but when I measure across Black and Red I don't get
240vac I find that strange.

If you don't get 240v, what do you get?
If you get 0 v, it may mean your black and red are hooked up to the same
hot.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

John wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

with my voltmeter I cam measure 120vac when I go across neutral and
each Black and Red but when I measure across Black and Red I don't get
240vac I find that strange.

If you don't get 240v, what do you get?
If you get 0 v, it may mean your black and red are hooked up to the same
hot.

That's my guess. Based on the "N" in the breaker number he gives, I'm
guessing it's a "narrow" style not designed for the particular panel he
has and isn't picking up but one side of the main buss bars...

wrote:
....
... new swimming pool heater... had to get electricity to it
from the main panel in the house.
I have a stab-lok panel in the house so I got a 50 amp NC0250cp bracer
that I installed in the house panel ...

See comments elsewhere on the symptoms...

Did you do a load check to verify you have sufficient excess capacity
in this panel to power another 50A subpanel? That's a significant load
and a Stablok panel implies an older service since FPE went under (over
those panels/breakers, basically, btw) quite some time ago you may be
pushing the limits of your current service (no pun intended) by adding
this large of a load from this existing panel.

I'm thinking this project could be worth getting an experienced
electrician to come evaluate the situation and advise you on whether
this is the proper way to get the power to the pool for the above
reason.

As noted, with the limited information, I've provided a guess as to
what could be the possible cause of the symptoms you describe elsewhere
in the thread but think there's a larger issue here that's worth
addressing.

wrote:

Hi,
I have recently purchased a new swimming pool heater, installed it next
to the shed in the backyard so naturally had to get electricity to it
from the main panel in the house.
I have a stab-lok panel in the house so I got a 50 amp NC0250cp bracer
that I installed in the house panel then connected the black wire and
the Red wire to each pole of the breaker the white wire to the neutral
of the panes and the Ground to the Ground I am using outdoor 6AWG wire.
I got the wire outside underground and to the shed where I installed a
new panel wired it up by connecting each Black and Reb to each main
connector of the new panel the white to the neutral bar and the ground
to the Ground bar I put in a 15amp single pole breaker for the pool
pump and a 30amp breaker for the pool heater.

with my voltmeter I cam measure 120vac when I go across neutral and
each Black and Red but when I measure across Black and Red I don't get
240vac I find that strange.

when 50amp breaker is on in the house and the 15amp breaker is on in
the shed the pomp works well but I would like to see if the 240 VAC is
ok before I connect up the pool heater.

Can you please help


Replace the Stab-Loc "incendiary device" a.k.a. panel before you burn
down your house. Then hook up the new heater to a proper two pole
breaker in a proper panel. My preference is for Square D QO panels, but
most anything current would be better that the Stab-Loc waiting to burn
the place down.

Pete C.

Wiring is not a hobby, call a licensed electrical contractor. Sounds
like you have a real "cluster fu@k" going on, especially with the
Stab-lok panel. You are over you head and can easliy burn down your
house or kill yourself and others. The WORSE thing here is (and nobody
picked up on) is this is a swimming pool heater, and you did not
mention electrical bonding of pool related equipment. Trust me I
investigate this stuff for a living.






Pete C. wrote:
wrote:

Hi,
I have recently purchased a new swimming pool heater, installed it next
to the shed in the backyard so naturally had to get electricity to it
from the main panel in the house.
I have a stab-lok panel in the house so I got a 50 amp NC0250cp bracer
that I installed in the house panel then connected the black wire and
the Red wire to each pole of the breaker the white wire to the neutral
of the panes and the Ground to the Ground I am using outdoor 6AWG wire.
I got the wire outside underground and to the shed where I installed a
new panel wired it up by connecting each Black and Reb to each main
connector of the new panel the white to the neutral bar and the ground
to the Ground bar I put in a 15amp single pole breaker for the pool
pump and a 30amp breaker for the pool heater.

with my voltmeter I cam measure 120vac when I go across neutral and
each Black and Red but when I measure across Black and Red I don't get
240vac I find that strange.

when 50amp breaker is on in the house and the 15amp breaker is on in
the shed the pomp works well but I would like to see if the 240 VAC is
ok before I connect up the pool heater.

Can you please help


Replace the Stab-Loc "incendiary device" a.k.a. panel before you burn
down your house. Then hook up the new heater to a proper two pole
breaker in a proper panel. My preference is for Square D QO panels, but
most anything current would be better that the Stab-Loc waiting to burn
the place down.

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:
wrote:

....
Replace the Stab-Loc "incendiary device" a.k.a. panel before you burn
down your house. Then hook up the new heater to a proper two pole
breaker in a proper panel. My preference is for Square D QO panels, but
most anything current would be better that the Stab-Loc waiting to burn
the place down.

Actually, the Eaton-Cutler Hammer retrofit kit is normally the cheaper
way to go. It uses the existing box and simply replaces the "innards".
They have kits to fit virtually any box.

wrote:
Unless her Stab Locc panel is 200 amps she should just replace the
entire thing.

That's what the CH retrofit cabinet does (except for the outer
box)...the cost savings is some on the material but mostly based on the
shorter replacement time/less labor associated with changing out the
components vis a vis ripping the whole box out and replacing it. This,
of course, assumes that one is having it done professionally which is
almost a universal recommendation for anyone who's asking for advice on
usenet...

FPE panels have breakers that dont trip, or never trip again after one
overload.
....

More precisely, FPE Stab-lok panels/breakers have had instances of such
failures at a high enough rate to make replacement a viable
consideration...

The _really_ bad thing in the story from my perspective is that
apparently FPE actually went so far as to have falsified test data and
filings to UL, etc., to get listings approved.

I haven't replaced all the FPE stuff here yet, but will
eventually....which is how I discovered the CH retrofits.

wrote:
....

Even if you could replace a 100 amp guts to a 200 amp the panel wouldnt
have as many slots, a larger neutral bar and may well lack some ground
rods or water meter jumper...

a full upgrade is likely better

If you look at the datasheet for the retrofit kits, you'll see they
include all of the above. The only thing you don't get new and up to
date is the outer box itself.

Therefore, the only limitation is the physical size of the box as to
whether it will fit or not and they make kits for essentially any box.

If it isn't large enough, obviously it has to be replaced. However, OP
indicated there is/was sufficient room in the existing panel for
another circuit which implies it's at least a possible option.

Have done several using these such as the church parsonage at
considerably less expense than the full tearout/replacement.

dpb wrote:
....
...you don't get new ... the outer box itself.


But, there is a new cover plate and all to fit the new breakers so it
looks just like a new one from the outside as well when you're done...

Well older boxes were smaller when compared to today, and she appeared
to be using thin breakers too...

In my case my 100 amp box is JAMMED, for cost isues I have thought
about buying a 200 amp main box, with a extra 100 amp main breaker.

then replace the box but not the service line or meter can, and leave
it 100 amps. then when theres more $ go ahead and replace the remaining
components and install the 200 amp main breaker.

new service panels arent that expensive.

I do wonder with the OPs FPE if the grounding and bonding is current to
todays standards espically critical with that pool...........

dpb wrote:
wrote:
...

new service panels arent that expensive.

I've already pointed out the cost savings aren't so much on the
hardware but in labor and OP in this thread certainly ain't gonna' be
doing this kind of upgrade him/herself...

please address my point...

assuming she has a 100 amp panel, is upgrading a FPE 100 amp a good
idea when adding a new major load of a electrical pool heater?

Theres no use replacing the guts just to find the main breaker trips...

plus the issue of good grounding and bonding with a swimming pool

wrote:
dpb wrote:
wrote:
...

new service panels arent that expensive.

I've already pointed out the cost savings aren't so much on the
hardware but in labor and OP in this thread certainly ain't gonna' be
doing this kind of upgrade him/herself...

please address my point...

assuming she has a 100 amp panel, is upgrading a FPE 100 amp a good
idea when adding a new major load of a electrical pool heater?

....

As I've pointed out repeatedly, assuming the physical size is adequate
(and OP has already indicated there was room available in the existing
panel) one can select a larger main w/ a larger ampacity main as part
of the retrofit kit. In essence, one no longer has an FPE panel at
all.

Whether it would be a fit in the particular application is
indeterminate from here, this asinine subthread started when I simply
pointed out there is a neat way to replace the trouble-prone FPE panels
besides a complete tearout which is potentially cheaper.

If the old box is surface mounted in an unfinished basement, there's no
purpose in a retrofit kit. Assuming it is embedded in a finished area
and does have physical capacity (and a lot of the FPE panels are plenty
large enough, dimensionally and that assumption is as equally
verifiable to be true in this case as that it isn't) the labor savings
in the associated replacement and repair of ancillary finished area can
save a sizable fraction of a replacement labor cost.

wrote:
Good point, around here most panels are surface mount, in garages and
such.

Is OP around there??? Do you know what OP's mount is?

... replace the service drop, meter can ...

Those are external to the panel which is the item under discussion. If
those must be replaced, they have to be done irrespective of the panel
itself so no difference afaics.

As for the "guts" of the panel vis a vis replacing a panel, having the
wire already pulled and in place _is_ a sizable time-saver.

As for rust, if the box is in a place so wet that it's rusty enough to
need replacement, that's yet another problem that is totally unrelated
to subject question and needs to be addressed and selecting either a
new box or a retrofit kit doesn't address that problem/symptom (other
than masking it by putting a new box in a unsuitable location).

wrote:
dpb wrote:
wrote:
Good point, around here most panels are surface mount, in garages and
such.

Is OP around there??? Do you know what OP's mount is?

... replace the service drop, meter can ...

Those are external to the panel which is the item under discussion. If
those must be replaced, they have to be done irrespective of the panel
itself so no difference afaics.

As for the "guts" of the panel vis a vis replacing a panel, having the
wire already pulled and in place _is_ a sizable time-saver.

As for rust, if the box is in a place so wet that it's rusty enough to
need replacement, that's yet another problem that is totally unrelated
to subject question and needs to be addressed and selecting either a
new box or a retrofit kit doesn't address that problem/symptom (other
than masking it by putting a new box in a unsuitable location).

Geez I am having trouble explaining my position.

Someone suggested replacing the guts to save bucks

I asked does the current panel haver the AMP capacity? probably not
adding a 50 amp load

The response was you can use the existing box and upgrade the amp
capacity..

I asked about the service drop meter can and am told thats a seperate
issue.

Well NO ITS REALLY NOT, if the AMP capacity isnt enough upgrading will
require a new service drop meter can etc, at least around here the
panel capacity is matched to the service drop.


at that point using the old box wouldnt save much and a new one is
likely larger physically, my old FBE panel is on the small side, it
needs replaced and when that occurs I will have to remove some
shelving...

I wouldnt replace everything but the outer box, probably doesnt save
much and may cause irritating questions at home resale time, buyers are
very fussy.

Obviously you havent sold a home recently. I did nearly 2 years ago and
ended up getting middle group to reinspect my 8 year old panel. All
because the inspection stickers date and signature had faded. Middle
group inspector thought the home inspector was a idiot. The first buyer
backed out and the 2nd buyer and home inspector put me thru the
wringer a second time, for different issues Home inspector wrote me
up for no GFCI on sump pump in garage, so I installed one and was
rewarded by home inspector #2 writing it up too, saying it should be a
standard outlet. sometimes you cant win

My LAST post on this meaningless subject.............

If the service drop needs replaced I think a entire new panel is a
better choice, but to each his own!

My opinion is based on my own poor choice of upgrading to JUST a 100
amp, not only was FPE a bad choice but the cabinet is too small.....
along with a 100 amp limit.

Honestly if my main were physically larger and 200 AMP I would just
replace the guts.

I am hoping to upgrade this summer..

posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

As my usual safety practice I then shrted this line to make certain it
was dead.

You are as big a dufus in electrical work as plumbing GO AWAY!!!!!
--
Tekkie

dpb posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.


wrote:
...
Sorry for the double post, dear google groups dropped out on the first
attempt and didn't notice it had lost new text when retried...

Geez I am having trouble explaining my position.
Someone suggested replacing the guts to save bucks


dpb don't play with the pig in the mud. You are only getting dirty for no
reason. HallerButt is unsafe and unknowledgeable in at least electrical and
plumbing. Don't take my word for it research his nefarious postings.

Have a happy 4'th!!
--
Tekkie

I have a lifetime of experience and some opinions too.

More importandly I am willing to learn.

A service tech by trade over 30 years repairing machines from copiers
to laminators and lots of other stuff in between, plus a ton of home
repairs and remodeling

On 3 Jul 2006 10:32:30 -0700, "dpb" wrote:


wrote:
Good point, around here most panels are surface mount, in garages and
such.

Is OP around there??? Do you know what OP's mount is?

He's explaining why he said what he did. No thread is just for the
OP. Now's a good time to take his explanation as it was intended.

... replace the service drop, meter can ...

Those are external to the panel which is the item under discussion. If
those must be replaced, they have to be done irrespective of the panel
itself so no difference afaics.

As for the "guts" of the panel vis a vis replacing a panel, having the
wire already pulled and in place _is_ a sizable time-saver.

As for rust, if the box is in a place so wet that it's rusty enough to
need replacement, that's yet another problem that is totally unrelated
to subject question and needs to be addressed and selecting either a
new box or a retrofit kit doesn't address that problem/symptom (other
than masking it by putting a new box in a unsuitable location).

He's still explaining why in many cases in his experience it's worth
replacing the whole box. That's all. The OP should be able to read
and decide if he has a lot of rust or not.

Tekkie® wrote:
posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

As my usual safety practice I then shrted this line to make certain it
was dead.

You are as big a dufus in electrical work as plumbing GO AWAY!!!!!
--
Tekkie

you think it dufus, did you know thats what linemen do, not only do
they check to make sure, they install intentional shorts so a bad
switch throw doesnt kill someone.

meters flake, lights dont work, a short is a short and very
reliable........!!!!!!!!!

NONE of you guys (including myself) are qualified to give advice on an
electrical problem you can not see and troubleshoot IN PERSON. Lets not
forget this guy is working on a pool. The best advice is to start
reading NEC art 680. Best advice is to call a licensed electrical
contractor.





wrote:
Tekkie® wrote:
posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

As my usual safety practice I then shrted this line to make certain it
was dead.

You are as big a dufus in electrical work as plumbing GO AWAY!!!!!
--
Tekkie

you think it dufus, did you know thats what linemen do, not only do
they check to make sure, they install intentional shorts so a bad
switch throw doesnt kill someone.

meters flake, lights dont work, a short is a short and very
reliable........!!!!!!!!!

According to :

I have a stab-lok panel in the house so I got a 50 amp NC0250cp bracer
that I installed in the house panel then connected the black wire and
the Red wire to each pole of the breaker the white wire to the neutral
of the panes and the Ground to the Ground I am using outdoor 6AWG wire.
I got the wire outside underground and to the shed where I installed a
new panel wired it up by connecting each Black and Reb to each main
connector of the new panel the white to the neutral bar and the ground
to the Ground bar I put in a 15amp single pole breaker for the pool
pump and a 30amp breaker for the pool heater.

with my voltmeter I cam measure 120vac when I go across neutral and
each Black and Red but when I measure across Black and Red I don't get
240vac I find that strange.

With at least _some_ STAB-LOK panels, it is possible to insert
a dual breaker so that the two halves of the breaker are on the
_same_ side of the main feed. [The backplane is wired AABBAABB...
instead of ABABAB...., and there are no interlocks to prevent
mis-registration]. If you have both halves of the breaker on the same
side, you'll have the precise symptoms you show.

Pull the breaker and move it _one_ slot (half the breaker width).
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.


Tekkie® wrote:
posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

As my usual safety practice I then shrted this line to make certain it
was dead.

You are as big a dufus in electrical work as plumbing GO AWAY!!!!!
--
Tekkie

you think it dufus, did you know thats what linemen do, not only do
they check to make sure, they install intentional shorts so a bad
switch throw doesnt kill someone.

meters flake, lights dont work, a short is a short and very
reliable........!!!!!!!!!


Heavy Butt wipe, that is not a short; that is a GROUND! Jesus, copier guy....
You are like Stormy - you think you learn but you don't.
--
Tekkie

Heavy Butt wipe, that is not a short; that is a GROUND! Jesus, copier guy...
You are like Stormy - you think you learn but you don't.
--
Tekkie

I have a couple detractors here, so be it

While YOU depend on a meter or test light and might get zapped I try to
avoid that, its not the end of the world just unpleasant and possibly
dangerous.

Incidently MY test to make certain a line was dead, the one that fried
some wiring also alerted me to a bad breaker that would never trip
which lked to my finding out about the FPE panel hazards

The mention of copier guy! Thanks that explains you BAD attitude!

Your from the NASA or shuttle boards, I am NOT a supporter of the
current shuttle program, much has been made of my copier repairman job.
I moved on to other machines, its my own business the change was
definetely a improvement