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#1
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Uneven Tile
Hello,
My contractor has just finished laying Porcelain 20" x 20" tile in our kitchen and nook area (approximately 320 square feet). Our house is only 5 years old and the tile was laid on concrete slab. The slab initially had linoleum on it which was removed before laying the new Porcelain tile. The problem was that the tile looked somewhat uneven after it was laid. After allowing 24 hours to set, we were allowed to walk on it and could immediately tell by feel that many of the tiles were not level with adjoining tiles. Using a level across adjoining tiles confirmed this. I even did a "sliding chair" test where I would try to slide a chair across the kitchen. The chair would hit the uneven tiles and stop and tip over. Obviously, this is now a hazard. As a result, we are having the contractor rip out the entire 320 square feet and do it again. It seemed to me that since they were laying tile on 5 year old conrete slab, this should have been a pretty standard task. Their explanation for the uneven tile heights was not clear, At first, they seemed to try and explain it by saying the concrete slab was unlevel, but I told them that seemed unlikely with a 5 year old slab. Furthermore, I said they could have leveled it with screed or some kind of leveling compound fiirst. Then they said that they were trying to match the tile height with the adjacent room's hardwood floor height by using extra thinset under the tiles and as a result, some tiles ended up unlevel with others. Anyway, they are doing it over again at no cost to me, but my questions are as follows: 1) Is there any reason to believe that they cannot lay the tile in a level manner on a concrete slab that is only 5 years old? 2) The thinset from the initial tile installation has dried for about 72 hours now. Can the tile be removed without damage? And if they can remove the tile without damage, does that mean they didn't put enough thinset to begin with? 3)Other than feel and the sliding chair test, is there a better way to quickly check the floor for uneven tiles? 4) How much uneveness is acceptable? I realize that the tiles cannot be laser flat with respect to one another, but how much uneveness should I accept? Thank you for any information you may provide. |
#2
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Uneven Tile
Porcelain tile has a pretty consistant thickness so they couldn't use that
as an excuse if it were natural stone, I could understand. The defect you are describing is called lippage. The problem is not about being level it is all about being flat. Sounds like the primary fault is in trying to bring up the level of the floor by using extra thinset. They should have leveled the floor at the height they wanted then tiled in two seperate steps. The thick bed of thinset makes it extremely difficult to make the tiles perfectly level. You probably won't be able to recover the tile for reuse. Even if they manage to get them up unbroken, the remaining thinset stuck to the bottom will make it even harder to maintain a flat floor, the labor to restore each tile will exceed the replacement cost. Rest assured, they will not make any money on your job now. wrote in message oups.com... Hello, My contractor has just finished laying Porcelain 20" x 20" tile in our kitchen and nook area (approximately 320 square feet). Our house is only 5 years old and the tile was laid on concrete slab. The slab initially had linoleum on it which was removed before laying the new Porcelain tile. The problem was that the tile looked somewhat uneven after it was laid. After allowing 24 hours to set, we were allowed to walk on it and could immediately tell by feel that many of the tiles were not level with adjoining tiles. Using a level across adjoining tiles confirmed this. I even did a "sliding chair" test where I would try to slide a chair across the kitchen. The chair would hit the uneven tiles and stop and tip over. Obviously, this is now a hazard. As a result, we are having the contractor rip out the entire 320 square feet and do it again. It seemed to me that since they were laying tile on 5 year old conrete slab, this should have been a pretty standard task. Their explanation for the uneven tile heights was not clear, At first, they seemed to try and explain it by saying the concrete slab was unlevel, but I told them that seemed unlikely with a 5 year old slab. Furthermore, I said they could have leveled it with screed or some kind of leveling compound fiirst. Then they said that they were trying to match the tile height with the adjacent room's hardwood floor height by using extra thinset under the tiles and as a result, some tiles ended up unlevel with others. Anyway, they are doing it over again at no cost to me, but my questions are as follows: 1) Is there any reason to believe that they cannot lay the tile in a level manner on a concrete slab that is only 5 years old? 2) The thinset from the initial tile installation has dried for about 72 hours now. Can the tile be removed without damage? And if they can remove the tile without damage, does that mean they didn't put enough thinset to begin with? 3)Other than feel and the sliding chair test, is there a better way to quickly check the floor for uneven tiles? 4) How much uneveness is acceptable? I realize that the tiles cannot be laser flat with respect to one another, but how much uneveness should I accept? Thank you for any information you may provide. |
#3
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Uneven Tile
wrote in message oups.com... Hello, My contractor has just finished laying Porcelain 20" x 20" tile in our kitchen and nook area (approximately 320 square feet). Our house is only 5 years old and the tile was laid on concrete slab. The slab initially had linoleum on it which was removed before laying the new Porcelain tile. The problem was that the tile looked somewhat uneven after it was laid. After allowing 24 hours to set, we were allowed to walk on it and could immediately tell by feel that many of the tiles were not level with adjoining tiles. Using a level across adjoining tiles confirmed this. I even did a "sliding chair" test where I would try to slide a chair across the kitchen. The chair would hit the uneven tiles and stop and tip over. Obviously, this is now a hazard. As a result, we are having the contractor rip out the entire 320 square feet and do it again. It seemed to me that since they were laying tile on 5 year old conrete slab, this should have been a pretty standard task. Their explanation for the uneven tile heights was not clear, At first, they seemed to try and explain it by saying the concrete slab was unlevel, but I told them that seemed unlikely with a 5 year old slab. Furthermore, I said they could have leveled it with screed or some kind of leveling compound fiirst. Then they said that they were trying to match the tile height with the adjacent room's hardwood floor height by using extra thinset under the tiles and as a result, some tiles ended up unlevel with others. Anyway, they are doing it over again at no cost to me, but my questions are as follows: 1) Is there any reason to believe that they cannot lay the tile in a level manner on a concrete slab that is only 5 years old? 2) The thinset from the initial tile installation has dried for about 72 hours now. Can the tile be removed without damage? And if they can remove the tile without damage, does that mean they didn't put enough thinset to begin with? 3)Other than feel and the sliding chair test, is there a better way to quickly check the floor for uneven tiles? 4) How much uneveness is acceptable? I realize that the tiles cannot be laser flat with respect to one another, but how much uneveness should I accept? Thank you for any information you may provide. 1) Slabs are rarely flat. You're not too concerned with level....you want flat. It doesn't matter the age, it's all in the finishing when poured. Chances are, the slab was never really flat anyway but the linoleum masked that, as does carpet. They should have flattened the concrete first with a patching or self-levelling compound. 2) Unlikely you'll get the tiles out without breakage unless they really did a shoddy job of laying them in. At the end of the day, it's their fault and you shouldn't be paying for "broken" tiles. 3) I use a straightedge when doing flooring to check my work as I go. Mind you, this is not a level but a straightedge. You can use a level as a straightedge but not vice versa. You're looking for flat. Obviously if the floor is way out of wack, then bringing it up to level makes sense. 4) Got me there. I don't know what "acceptable" is. For me, with ceramic, it's pretty darned flat. With Saltillo, forget about it.....it ain't gonna happen! With porcelain you should expect it to be pretty darned flat but I can't give you a more specific answer. Cheers, cc |
#4
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Uneven Tile
PipeDown wrote:
Porcelain tile has a pretty consistant thickness so they couldn't use that as an excuse if it were natural stone, I could understand. The defect you are describing is called lippage. The problem is not about being level it is all about being flat. Sounds like the primary fault is in trying to bring up the level of the floor by using extra thinset. They should have leveled the floor at the height they wanted then tiled in two seperate steps. The thick bed of thinset makes it extremely difficult to make the tiles perfectly level. You probably won't be able to recover the tile for reuse. Even if they manage to get them up unbroken, the remaining thinset stuck to the bottom will make it even harder to maintain a flat floor, the labor to restore each tile will exceed the replacement cost. Rest assured, they will not make any money on your job now. wrote in message oups.com... Hello, My contractor has just finished laying Porcelain 20" x 20" tile in our kitchen and nook area (approximately 320 square feet). Our house is only 5 years old and the tile was laid on concrete slab. The slab initially had linoleum on it which was removed before laying the new Porcelain tile. The problem was that the tile looked somewhat uneven after it was laid. After allowing 24 hours to set, we were allowed to walk on it and could immediately tell by feel that many of the tiles were not level with adjoining tiles. Using a level across adjoining tiles confirmed this. I even did a "sliding chair" test where I would try to slide a chair across the kitchen. The chair would hit the uneven tiles and stop and tip over. Obviously, this is now a hazard. As a result, we are having the contractor rip out the entire 320 square feet and do it again. It seemed to me that since they were laying tile on 5 year old conrete slab, this should have been a pretty standard task. Their explanation for the uneven tile heights was not clear, At first, they seemed to try and explain it by saying the concrete slab was unlevel, but I told them that seemed unlikely with a 5 year old slab. Furthermore, I said they could have leveled it with screed or some kind of leveling compound fiirst. Then they said that they were trying to match the tile height with the adjacent room's hardwood floor height by using extra thinset under the tiles and as a result, some tiles ended up unlevel with others. Anyway, they are doing it over again at no cost to me, but my questions are as follows: 1) Is there any reason to believe that they cannot lay the tile in a level manner on a concrete slab that is only 5 years old? 2) The thinset from the initial tile installation has dried for about 72 hours now. Can the tile be removed without damage? And if they can remove the tile without damage, does that mean they didn't put enough thinset to begin with? 3)Other than feel and the sliding chair test, is there a better way to quickly check the floor for uneven tiles? 4) How much uneveness is acceptable? I realize that the tiles cannot be laser flat with respect to one another, but how much uneveness should I accept? Thank you for any information you may provide. Right on - I was surprised when I got to the section of the original post when it was asked about re-use of original tiles. It never even occured to me that this would be possible unless they have virtually no contact with the thinset (not likely) To the original poster The age of the concrete floor really has nothing to do with it. If the original is flat then the new tile floor should be relatively flat. Even with new tile I would be concerned about making the floor flat now that it has thinset all over it. I have never had to remove tile from concrete but I would imagine its a real bitch. How much evenness is acceptable? That depends on the tile of course. Your tile is pretty consistent in thickness, I assume, so I would at least expect each tile to be within 1/16" to 3/32" of the adjacent tile. 20x20 tiles present their own challenges (I'm in the middle of a project with 12x24 tiles). I would say get a 2' or 3' straight edge and compare a tile to its adjacent one. If you use a level ignore the bubble. You are not trying to make them level, just flat relative to the next one. Since the tile man is doing the replacement on his dime I suspect he agrees with you about the un-evenness. I would ask him what he thinks is an acceptable height difference between tiles. Also - As I'm sure you know - The grout is not level with the surface of the tile and you will not have a smooth surface. Your chairs may still rock and skip across the grout joints. I would add felt bottoms to the chair legs to ensure you do not scratch the tile plus it makes them quieter when sliding around. Good luck - Post some pictures when its done and buy your contractor a case of beer when finished for making it right. Despite his laborer who screwed up it seems he is a stand up guy. Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php |
#5
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Uneven Tile
Mike,
The reponses to your problem so far have been very good, let me add my two cents... I agree that the age of the concrete isn't relevant, only I'd add that it is a benefit to you that the concrete has cured that long....most settling and movement of a slab occurs in the first few years, so yours probably won't crack or shear tile down the road. The thinset is still "young", and will certainly release the tiles more easily than normal. They could get very lucky and the thinset could have bonded to the floor more than to the porcelain, but even small amounts of thinset on the tiles will make it very hard to tile the floor evenly. If they are re-using the tile they'll have to get them very clean. You ask "if they can remove the tile without damage [thinset releasing easily I assume you mean], does that mean they didn't put enough thinset....." Porcelain requires the highest grade of thinset because it it much denser than ordinary ceramic tile. If you see bags of thinset around, read the bag and make sure it says it can be used for porcelain tile. You can visually check for uneven tiles by putting your head low to the floor and look across. Porcelain tiles are usually calibrated to be very true in size and flatness, so the lippage should be minor. I've been in malls or restaurants and said to my friends, "look how absolutely terrible this tile job is". They'll look and usually say, "looks good to me". So....how much unevenness should you accept is hard to answer. The general rule is can you stub your toe on it with ordinary shoes or boots. My guess is more than 1/16" is not too professional, with this high quality porcelain tile. Bottom line is that the larger the tile, the more challenging it is to get them flat. Are your requiring a tiny grout joint? I won't use less than a 3/16" joint on a thinset job. If people want less than that I tell them to get a marble setter to set the tiles in a 1" mud bed, and expect to pay double. With thinset though, you should expect a pretty flat floor. What I fear for you though is this: If they didn't do it right the first time....I don't know how they'll be able do do it right the second time. Maybe your contractor will come up with a better installer for you. thetiler |
#6
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Uneven Tile
3)Other than feel and the sliding chair test, is there a better way to
quickly check the floor for uneven tiles? (1) Lippage spec. Straightedge anywhere does not exceed some specified gap. (2) Do not let this same contractor in your house. Document the failure, fire him, get the job done right, sue him for the difference in cost. |
#7
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Uneven Tile
Richard J Kinch wrote:
3)Other than feel and the sliding chair test, is there a better way to quickly check the floor for uneven tiles? (1) Lippage spec. Straightedge anywhere does not exceed some specified gap. (2) Do not let this same contractor in your house. Document the failure, fire him, get the job done right, sue him for the difference in cost. In a thread of reasonable advice, this last part doesn't fit. The contractor is willing to make it right, so what's the problem? Hauling in the lawyers is guaranteed to make everyone lose except the lawyers. R |
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