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Posted to alt.home.repair
 
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Default Uneven Tile

Hello,

My contractor has just finished laying Porcelain 20" x 20" tile in our
kitchen and nook area (approximately 320 square feet). Our house is
only 5 years old and the tile was laid on concrete slab. The slab
initially had linoleum on it which was removed before laying the new
Porcelain tile.

The problem was that the tile looked somewhat uneven after it was laid.
After allowing 24 hours to set, we were allowed to walk on it and
could immediately tell by feel that many of the tiles were not level
with adjoining tiles. Using a level across adjoining tiles confirmed
this. I even did a "sliding chair" test where I would try to slide a
chair across the kitchen. The chair would hit the uneven tiles and
stop and tip over. Obviously, this is now a hazard.
As a result, we are having the contractor rip out the entire 320 square
feet and do it again.

It seemed to me that since they were laying tile on 5 year old conrete
slab, this should have been a pretty standard task. Their explanation
for the uneven tile heights was not clear, At first, they seemed to
try and explain it by saying the concrete slab was unlevel, but I told
them that seemed unlikely with a 5 year old slab. Furthermore, I said
they could have leveled it with screed or some kind of leveling
compound fiirst. Then they said that they were trying to match the
tile height with the adjacent room's hardwood floor height by using
extra thinset under the tiles and as a result, some tiles ended up
unlevel with others.

Anyway, they are doing it over again at no cost to me, but my questions
are as follows:
1) Is there any reason to believe that they cannot lay the tile in a
level manner on a concrete
slab that is only 5 years old?
2) The thinset from the initial tile installation has dried for about
72 hours now. Can the tile be removed without damage? And if they can
remove the tile without damage, does that mean they didn't put enough
thinset to begin with?
3)Other than feel and the sliding chair test, is there a better way to
quickly check the floor for uneven tiles?
4) How much uneveness is acceptable? I realize that the tiles cannot
be laser flat with respect to one another, but how much uneveness
should I accept?

Thank you for any information you may provide.

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PipeDown
 
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Default Uneven Tile

Porcelain tile has a pretty consistant thickness so they couldn't use that
as an excuse if it were natural stone, I could understand. The defect you
are describing is called lippage. The problem is not about being level it is
all about being flat.

Sounds like the primary fault is in trying to bring up the level of the
floor by using extra thinset. They should have leveled the floor at the
height they wanted then tiled in two seperate steps. The thick bed of
thinset makes it extremely difficult to make the tiles perfectly level.

You probably won't be able to recover the tile for reuse. Even if they
manage to get them up unbroken, the remaining thinset stuck to the bottom
will make it even harder to maintain a flat floor, the labor to restore each
tile will exceed the replacement cost. Rest assured, they will not make any
money on your job now.




wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello,

My contractor has just finished laying Porcelain 20" x 20" tile in our
kitchen and nook area (approximately 320 square feet). Our house is
only 5 years old and the tile was laid on concrete slab. The slab
initially had linoleum on it which was removed before laying the new
Porcelain tile.

The problem was that the tile looked somewhat uneven after it was laid.
After allowing 24 hours to set, we were allowed to walk on it and
could immediately tell by feel that many of the tiles were not level
with adjoining tiles. Using a level across adjoining tiles confirmed
this. I even did a "sliding chair" test where I would try to slide a
chair across the kitchen. The chair would hit the uneven tiles and
stop and tip over. Obviously, this is now a hazard.
As a result, we are having the contractor rip out the entire 320 square
feet and do it again.

It seemed to me that since they were laying tile on 5 year old conrete
slab, this should have been a pretty standard task. Their explanation
for the uneven tile heights was not clear, At first, they seemed to
try and explain it by saying the concrete slab was unlevel, but I told
them that seemed unlikely with a 5 year old slab. Furthermore, I said
they could have leveled it with screed or some kind of leveling
compound fiirst. Then they said that they were trying to match the
tile height with the adjacent room's hardwood floor height by using
extra thinset under the tiles and as a result, some tiles ended up
unlevel with others.

Anyway, they are doing it over again at no cost to me, but my questions
are as follows:
1) Is there any reason to believe that they cannot lay the tile in a
level manner on a concrete
slab that is only 5 years old?
2) The thinset from the initial tile installation has dried for about
72 hours now. Can the tile be removed without damage? And if they can
remove the tile without damage, does that mean they didn't put enough
thinset to begin with?
3)Other than feel and the sliding chair test, is there a better way to
quickly check the floor for uneven tiles?
4) How much uneveness is acceptable? I realize that the tiles cannot
be laser flat with respect to one another, but how much uneveness
should I accept?

Thank you for any information you may provide.



  #3   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
James \Cubby\ Culbertson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Uneven Tile


wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello,

My contractor has just finished laying Porcelain 20" x 20" tile in our
kitchen and nook area (approximately 320 square feet). Our house is
only 5 years old and the tile was laid on concrete slab. The slab
initially had linoleum on it which was removed before laying the new
Porcelain tile.

The problem was that the tile looked somewhat uneven after it was laid.
After allowing 24 hours to set, we were allowed to walk on it and
could immediately tell by feel that many of the tiles were not level
with adjoining tiles. Using a level across adjoining tiles confirmed
this. I even did a "sliding chair" test where I would try to slide a
chair across the kitchen. The chair would hit the uneven tiles and
stop and tip over. Obviously, this is now a hazard.
As a result, we are having the contractor rip out the entire 320 square
feet and do it again.

It seemed to me that since they were laying tile on 5 year old conrete
slab, this should have been a pretty standard task. Their explanation
for the uneven tile heights was not clear, At first, they seemed to
try and explain it by saying the concrete slab was unlevel, but I told
them that seemed unlikely with a 5 year old slab. Furthermore, I said
they could have leveled it with screed or some kind of leveling
compound fiirst. Then they said that they were trying to match the
tile height with the adjacent room's hardwood floor height by using
extra thinset under the tiles and as a result, some tiles ended up
unlevel with others.

Anyway, they are doing it over again at no cost to me, but my questions
are as follows:
1) Is there any reason to believe that they cannot lay the tile in a
level manner on a concrete
slab that is only 5 years old?
2) The thinset from the initial tile installation has dried for about
72 hours now. Can the tile be removed without damage? And if they can
remove the tile without damage, does that mean they didn't put enough
thinset to begin with?
3)Other than feel and the sliding chair test, is there a better way to
quickly check the floor for uneven tiles?
4) How much uneveness is acceptable? I realize that the tiles cannot
be laser flat with respect to one another, but how much uneveness
should I accept?

Thank you for any information you may provide.


1) Slabs are rarely flat. You're not too concerned with level....you want
flat. It doesn't matter the age, it's all in the finishing when poured.
Chances are, the slab was never really flat anyway but the linoleum masked
that, as does carpet. They should have flattened the concrete first
with a patching or self-levelling compound.
2) Unlikely you'll get the tiles out without breakage unless they really
did a shoddy job of laying them in. At the end of the day, it's their
fault and you shouldn't be paying for "broken" tiles.
3) I use a straightedge when doing flooring to check my work as I go.
Mind you, this is not a level but a straightedge. You can use a level as a
straightedge but not vice versa. You're looking for flat. Obviously if
the floor is way out of wack, then bringing it up to level makes sense.
4) Got me there. I don't know what "acceptable" is. For me, with
ceramic, it's pretty darned flat. With Saltillo, forget about it.....it
ain't gonna happen! With porcelain you should expect it to be pretty
darned flat but I can't give you a more specific answer.
Cheers,
cc


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Posted to alt.home.repair
No
 
Posts: n/a
Default Uneven Tile

PipeDown wrote:
Porcelain tile has a pretty consistant thickness so they couldn't use that
as an excuse if it were natural stone, I could understand. The defect you
are describing is called lippage. The problem is not about being level it is
all about being flat.

Sounds like the primary fault is in trying to bring up the level of the
floor by using extra thinset. They should have leveled the floor at the
height they wanted then tiled in two seperate steps. The thick bed of
thinset makes it extremely difficult to make the tiles perfectly level.

You probably won't be able to recover the tile for reuse. Even if they
manage to get them up unbroken, the remaining thinset stuck to the bottom
will make it even harder to maintain a flat floor, the labor to restore each
tile will exceed the replacement cost. Rest assured, they will not make any
money on your job now.




wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello,

My contractor has just finished laying Porcelain 20" x 20" tile in our
kitchen and nook area (approximately 320 square feet). Our house is
only 5 years old and the tile was laid on concrete slab. The slab
initially had linoleum on it which was removed before laying the new
Porcelain tile.

The problem was that the tile looked somewhat uneven after it was laid.
After allowing 24 hours to set, we were allowed to walk on it and
could immediately tell by feel that many of the tiles were not level
with adjoining tiles. Using a level across adjoining tiles confirmed
this. I even did a "sliding chair" test where I would try to slide a
chair across the kitchen. The chair would hit the uneven tiles and
stop and tip over. Obviously, this is now a hazard.
As a result, we are having the contractor rip out the entire 320 square
feet and do it again.

It seemed to me that since they were laying tile on 5 year old conrete
slab, this should have been a pretty standard task. Their explanation
for the uneven tile heights was not clear, At first, they seemed to
try and explain it by saying the concrete slab was unlevel, but I told
them that seemed unlikely with a 5 year old slab. Furthermore, I said
they could have leveled it with screed or some kind of leveling
compound fiirst. Then they said that they were trying to match the
tile height with the adjacent room's hardwood floor height by using
extra thinset under the tiles and as a result, some tiles ended up
unlevel with others.

Anyway, they are doing it over again at no cost to me, but my questions
are as follows:
1) Is there any reason to believe that they cannot lay the tile in a
level manner on a concrete
slab that is only 5 years old?
2) The thinset from the initial tile installation has dried for about
72 hours now. Can the tile be removed without damage? And if they can
remove the tile without damage, does that mean they didn't put enough
thinset to begin with?
3)Other than feel and the sliding chair test, is there a better way to
quickly check the floor for uneven tiles?
4) How much uneveness is acceptable? I realize that the tiles cannot
be laser flat with respect to one another, but how much uneveness
should I accept?

Thank you for any information you may provide.



Right on - I was surprised when I got to the section of the original
post when it was asked about re-use of original tiles. It never even
occured to me that this would be possible unless they have virtually no
contact with the thinset (not likely)

To the original poster

The age of the concrete floor really has nothing to do with it. If the
original is flat then the new tile floor should be relatively flat. Even
with new tile I would be concerned about making the floor flat now that
it has thinset all over it. I have never had to remove tile from
concrete but I would imagine its a real bitch. How much evenness is
acceptable? That depends on the tile of course. Your tile is pretty
consistent in thickness, I assume, so I would at least expect each tile
to be within 1/16" to 3/32" of the adjacent tile. 20x20 tiles present
their own challenges (I'm in the middle of a project with 12x24 tiles).
I would say get a 2' or 3' straight edge and compare a tile to its
adjacent one. If you use a level ignore the bubble. You are not trying
to make them level, just flat relative to the next one. Since the tile
man is doing the replacement on his dime I suspect he agrees with you
about the un-evenness. I would ask him what he thinks is an acceptable
height difference between tiles.

Also - As I'm sure you know - The grout is not level with the surface of
the tile and you will not have a smooth surface. Your chairs may still
rock and skip across the grout joints. I would add felt bottoms to the
chair legs to ensure you do not scratch the tile plus it makes them
quieter when sliding around.

Good luck - Post some pictures when its done and buy your contractor a
case of beer when finished for making it right. Despite his laborer who
screwed up it seems he is a stand up guy.

Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php
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thetiler
 
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Default Uneven Tile

Mike,
The reponses to your problem so far have been very
good, let me add my two cents...
I agree that the age of the concrete isn't relevant, only
I'd add that it is a benefit to you that the concrete has
cured that long....most settling and movement of a slab
occurs in the first few years, so yours probably won't
crack or shear tile down the road.

The thinset is still "young", and will certainly release the
tiles more easily than normal. They could get very lucky
and the thinset could have bonded to the floor more than
to the porcelain, but even small amounts of thinset on the
tiles will make it very hard to tile the floor evenly. If they
are re-using the tile they'll have to get them very clean.

You ask "if they can remove the tile without damage [thinset
releasing easily I assume you mean], does that mean they
didn't put enough thinset....."
Porcelain requires the highest grade of thinset because it
it much denser than ordinary ceramic tile. If you see
bags of thinset around, read the bag and make sure it says
it can be used for porcelain tile.

You can visually check for uneven tiles by putting your
head low to the floor and look across. Porcelain tiles are
usually calibrated to be very true in size and flatness, so
the lippage should be minor.

I've been in malls or restaurants and said to my friends,
"look how absolutely terrible this tile job is". They'll look
and usually say, "looks good to me".
So....how much unevenness should you accept is hard
to answer. The general rule is can you stub your toe
on it with ordinary shoes or boots. My guess is more than
1/16" is not too professional, with this high quality porcelain
tile.

Bottom line is that the larger the tile, the more challenging
it is to get them flat. Are your requiring a tiny grout joint?
I won't use less than a 3/16" joint on a thinset job. If people
want less than that I tell them to get a marble setter to set
the tiles in a 1" mud bed, and expect to pay double. With
thinset though, you should expect a pretty flat floor.

What I fear for you though is this:
If they didn't do it right the first time....I don't know how they'll
be able do do it right the second time. Maybe your
contractor will come up with a better installer for you.

thetiler



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Richard J Kinch
 
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Default Uneven Tile

3)Other than feel and the sliding chair test, is there a better way to
quickly check the floor for uneven tiles?


(1) Lippage spec. Straightedge anywhere does not exceed some specified
gap.

(2) Do not let this same contractor in your house. Document the failure,
fire him, get the job done right, sue him for the difference in cost.
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RicodJour
 
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Default Uneven Tile

Richard J Kinch wrote:
3)Other than feel and the sliding chair test, is there a better way to
quickly check the floor for uneven tiles?


(1) Lippage spec. Straightedge anywhere does not exceed some specified
gap.

(2) Do not let this same contractor in your house. Document the failure,
fire him, get the job done right, sue him for the difference in cost.


In a thread of reasonable advice, this last part doesn't fit. The
contractor is willing to make it right, so what's the problem? Hauling
in the lawyers is guaranteed to make everyone lose except the lawyers.

R

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RicodJour
 
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Default Uneven Tile

wrote:

My contractor has just finished laying Porcelain 20" x 20" tile in our
kitchen and nook area (approximately 320 square feet). Our house is
only 5 years old and the tile was laid on concrete slab. The slab
initially had linoleum on it which was removed before laying the new
Porcelain tile.

The problem was that the tile looked somewhat uneven after it was laid.
After allowing 24 hours to set, we were allowed to walk on it and
could immediately tell by feel that many of the tiles were not level
with adjoining tiles. Using a level across adjoining tiles confirmed
this. I even did a "sliding chair" test where I would try to slide a
chair across the kitchen. The chair would hit the uneven tiles and
stop and tip over. Obviously, this is now a hazard.
As a result, we are having the contractor rip out the entire 320 square
feet and do it again.

It seemed to me that since they were laying tile on 5 year old conrete
slab, this should have been a pretty standard task. Their explanation
for the uneven tile heights was not clear, At first, they seemed to
try and explain it by saying the concrete slab was unlevel, but I told
them that seemed unlikely with a 5 year old slab. Furthermore, I said
they could have leveled it with screed or some kind of leveling
compound fiirst. Then they said that they were trying to match the
tile height with the adjacent room's hardwood floor height by using
extra thinset under the tiles and as a result, some tiles ended up
unlevel with others.


The extra thinset depth should have allowed them to beat down the tile
and get the lippage under control, but there are some issues with the
thickness. How much were they trying to bring up the tile to match the
other floor? If it was more than a pretty small fraction of an inch,
they should have probably gone another route using another
material/method to make up the difference. Thinset is for thin setting
beds.

The height difference between the floor areas could have been made up
by using a self-leveling floor cement and/or using an isolation
membrane such as Ditra
http://www.schluter.com/english/prod...601-index.html
to bring up the floor level.

Part of the problem is the size of the tile you chose. The larger the
tile the less room for error. Any little inclination in the surface
will be magnified, and since there are larger planar surfaces and fewer
joints...well, it's not going to be perfect.

For larger tile and stone installations a thick set (mud job) setting
bed is the preferred way to go. That allows the setter to beat down
the tile/stone into a flat, planar position.

Someone mentioned using a short straight edge to keep the floor planar.
I'd use a longer straight edge of 4' to 6' to insure that you're
dealing with surfaces and not edges.

Many of these things should have been pointed out to you and also
researched by you. The specifications for the job should have been
included in the contract including what amount of lippage is acceptable
and how flat the floor should be within a given distance. Relying on a
contractor to do nice work on something that he may or may not have
experience with, or may or may not meet with your expectations, is iffy
at best. Unless you checked his references for similarly sized tile
installations you took something at face value. That's a guaranteed
losing proposition.

R

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