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Proctologically Violated©®
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tinning Flux vs. regular flux for sweating copper

Awl--

I've always used "regular" flux for sweating, but the wife brought home, by
accident, Oatey #95 *tinning flux*, which seems it might actually be a good
idea, perhaps helping solder flow into the joint by "pre-wetting" it a
little.
I also have the Oatey #5 regular solder paste.
Any opinions on which would better facilitate a fairly lengthy plumbing job
I have ahead of me?

Any other tips? For example, is emery better than steel wool for cleaning
joints? Is one solder better than another? etc.
I'll be using a prestolyte-type setup w/ an acetylene B tank, doing mostly
1/2", but also some 3/4, 1", 1.25".
I tend to be liberal w/ threaded adapters, for things like valves, check
valves, and other stuff, as I'm more comfortable w/ the threaded versions of
those, and have actually screwed a few up in the sweating process.

Also, any opinions on joint compound for threaded joints? I don't know if
it's cheap fittings or just me getting old, but I've actually had to use
plumber's string and dope to get rid of stubborn leaks. Someone recommended
RectoSeal, which I bought but have not used yet. Pretty expensive.

TIA.
--
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll


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Posted to alt.home.repair
Paul Franklin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tinning Flux vs. regular flux for sweating copper

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 21:35:50 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Awl--

I've always used "regular" flux for sweating, but the wife brought home, by
accident, Oatey #95 *tinning flux*, which seems it might actually be a good
idea, perhaps helping solder flow into the joint by "pre-wetting" it a
little.
I also have the Oatey #5 regular solder paste.
Any opinions on which would better facilitate a fairly lengthy plumbing job
I have ahead of me?

Any other tips? For example, is emery better than steel wool for cleaning
joints? Is one solder better than another? etc.
I'll be using a prestolyte-type setup w/ an acetylene B tank, doing mostly
1/2", but also some 3/4, 1", 1.25".
I tend to be liberal w/ threaded adapters, for things like valves, check
valves, and other stuff, as I'm more comfortable w/ the threaded versions of
those, and have actually screwed a few up in the sweating process.

Also, any opinions on joint compound for threaded joints? I don't know if
it's cheap fittings or just me getting old, but I've actually had to use
plumber's string and dope to get rid of stubborn leaks. Someone recommended
RectoSeal, which I bought but have not used yet. Pretty expensive.

TIA.


I like the tinning flux...it flashes silver when the joint reaches
temperature so it helps me not overheat the joint. Other than that, I
don't notice much difference.

Personally, I prefer plumber's cloth to steel wool by far. And I
don't try to use a single piece for more than a few joints. It cuts
better when fresh, and it's cheap.

Other tips? Clean, clean, clean. After cleaning the pipe with
plumber's cloth or the fitting with an inside brush, I give it a quick
wipe with a clean rag to remove the grit and loosened grime. Then I
flux imediately. I don't like to leave cleaned pieces sitting around
for a long time before sweating them. I also like to clean the end of
the fitting. I think it helps the solder form a smooth fillet.

If you have a lot of fittings to clean, cut the handle off a fitting
brush and chuck it in a drill.

Take the time to remove the melted flux with a damp rag after the
joints cool. And a piece of scotchbrite pad cleans the joint up nice
after the wet rag.

Rectorseal's good stuff. Since I hate leaks, I use teflon tape AND
rectorseal on threaded joints. Tape first, then the dope. Haven't
had one leak in a very long time with that combo. But if you have a
big job, get over your tendency to go with threaded versions and
adaptors when sweat versions are available. It will save you a lot of
pieces and a lot of joints.

Good luck with your project.

Paul

  #3   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
Proctologically Violated©®
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tinning Flux vs. regular flux for sweating copper

Good advice. Will check out plumber's cloth today.
Esp. like the observation on cleaning the ends of fittings. I might get
real stupid and touch them on a belt sander!
Scotchbrite after sweating??? Beyond my psychological capacity!

I'll try to minimize adapters, to where I think I might change my mind about
something or other later--easier to undo a threaded cap than sweat, etc.
But indeed, straight sweating would save time.

I have put fitting brushes in a drill, but never used them on fittings!!
Another good idea.

Greatly appreciate the input.
--
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Paul Franklin" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 21:35:50 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Awl--

I've always used "regular" flux for sweating, but the wife brought home,
by
accident, Oatey #95 *tinning flux*, which seems it might actually be a
good
idea, perhaps helping solder flow into the joint by "pre-wetting" it a
little.
I also have the Oatey #5 regular solder paste.
Any opinions on which would better facilitate a fairly lengthy plumbing
job
I have ahead of me?

Any other tips? For example, is emery better than steel wool for cleaning
joints? Is one solder better than another? etc.
I'll be using a prestolyte-type setup w/ an acetylene B tank, doing mostly
1/2", but also some 3/4, 1", 1.25".
I tend to be liberal w/ threaded adapters, for things like valves, check
valves, and other stuff, as I'm more comfortable w/ the threaded versions
of
those, and have actually screwed a few up in the sweating process.

Also, any opinions on joint compound for threaded joints? I don't know if
it's cheap fittings or just me getting old, but I've actually had to use
plumber's string and dope to get rid of stubborn leaks. Someone
recommended
RectoSeal, which I bought but have not used yet. Pretty expensive.

TIA.


I like the tinning flux...it flashes silver when the joint reaches
temperature so it helps me not overheat the joint. Other than that, I
don't notice much difference.

Personally, I prefer plumber's cloth to steel wool by far. And I
don't try to use a single piece for more than a few joints. It cuts
better when fresh, and it's cheap.

Other tips? Clean, clean, clean. After cleaning the pipe with
plumber's cloth or the fitting with an inside brush, I give it a quick
wipe with a clean rag to remove the grit and loosened grime. Then I
flux imediately. I don't like to leave cleaned pieces sitting around
for a long time before sweating them. I also like to clean the end of
the fitting. I think it helps the solder form a smooth fillet.

If you have a lot of fittings to clean, cut the handle off a fitting
brush and chuck it in a drill.

Take the time to remove the melted flux with a damp rag after the
joints cool. And a piece of scotchbrite pad cleans the joint up nice
after the wet rag.

Rectorseal's good stuff. Since I hate leaks, I use teflon tape AND
rectorseal on threaded joints. Tape first, then the dope. Haven't
had one leak in a very long time with that combo. But if you have a
big job, get over your tendency to go with threaded versions and
adaptors when sweat versions are available. It will save you a lot of
pieces and a lot of joints.

Good luck with your project.

Paul



  #4   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
EXT
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tinning Flux vs. regular flux for sweating copper

I have bought some wire cleaning brushes with the hexagon screwdriver base
on them so they can fit the screwdriver fittings, etc. Better than trying to
chuck a twisted piece of wire from a cut off handle -- cheaper too.

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...
Good advice. Will check out plumber's cloth today.
Esp. like the observation on cleaning the ends of fittings. I might get
real stupid and touch them on a belt sander!
Scotchbrite after sweating??? Beyond my psychological capacity!

I'll try to minimize adapters, to where I think I might change my mind
about something or other later--easier to undo a threaded cap than sweat,
etc.
But indeed, straight sweating would save time.

I have put fitting brushes in a drill, but never used them on fittings!!
Another good idea.

Greatly appreciate the input.
--
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Paul Franklin" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 21:35:50 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Awl--

I've always used "regular" flux for sweating, but the wife brought home,
by
accident, Oatey #95 *tinning flux*, which seems it might actually be a
good
idea, perhaps helping solder flow into the joint by "pre-wetting" it a
little.
I also have the Oatey #5 regular solder paste.
Any opinions on which would better facilitate a fairly lengthy plumbing
job
I have ahead of me?

Any other tips? For example, is emery better than steel wool for
cleaning
joints? Is one solder better than another? etc.
I'll be using a prestolyte-type setup w/ an acetylene B tank, doing
mostly
1/2", but also some 3/4, 1", 1.25".
I tend to be liberal w/ threaded adapters, for things like valves, check
valves, and other stuff, as I'm more comfortable w/ the threaded versions
of
those, and have actually screwed a few up in the sweating process.

Also, any opinions on joint compound for threaded joints? I don't know
if
it's cheap fittings or just me getting old, but I've actually had to use
plumber's string and dope to get rid of stubborn leaks. Someone
recommended
RectoSeal, which I bought but have not used yet. Pretty expensive.

TIA.


I like the tinning flux...it flashes silver when the joint reaches
temperature so it helps me not overheat the joint. Other than that, I
don't notice much difference.

Personally, I prefer plumber's cloth to steel wool by far. And I
don't try to use a single piece for more than a few joints. It cuts
better when fresh, and it's cheap.

Other tips? Clean, clean, clean. After cleaning the pipe with
plumber's cloth or the fitting with an inside brush, I give it a quick
wipe with a clean rag to remove the grit and loosened grime. Then I
flux imediately. I don't like to leave cleaned pieces sitting around
for a long time before sweating them. I also like to clean the end of
the fitting. I think it helps the solder form a smooth fillet.

If you have a lot of fittings to clean, cut the handle off a fitting
brush and chuck it in a drill.

Take the time to remove the melted flux with a damp rag after the
joints cool. And a piece of scotchbrite pad cleans the joint up nice
after the wet rag.

Rectorseal's good stuff. Since I hate leaks, I use teflon tape AND
rectorseal on threaded joints. Tape first, then the dope. Haven't
had one leak in a very long time with that combo. But if you have a
big job, get over your tendency to go with threaded versions and
adaptors when sweat versions are available. It will save you a lot of
pieces and a lot of joints.

Good luck with your project.

Paul





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Posted to alt.home.repair
Ralph Mowery
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tinning Flux vs. regular flux for sweating copper


"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...
Awl--

I've always used "regular" flux for sweating, but the wife brought home,

by
accident, Oatey #95 *tinning flux*, which seems it might actually be a

good
idea, perhaps helping solder flow into the joint by "pre-wetting" it a
little.
I also have the Oatey #5 regular solder paste.
Any opinions on which would better facilitate a fairly lengthy plumbing

job
I have ahead of me?

Any other tips? For example, is emery better than steel wool for cleaning
joints? Is one solder better than another? etc.
I'll be using a prestolyte-type setup w/ an acetylene B tank, doing mostly
1/2", but also some 3/4, 1", 1.25".
I tend to be liberal w/ threaded adapters, for things like valves, check
valves, and other stuff, as I'm more comfortable w/ the threaded versions

of
those, and have actually screwed a few up in the sweating process.


Use the old 50/50 tin/lead mix instead of the new lead free stuff. Make
sure the pipe and fitting are both clean and bright.





  #6   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
Joey
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tinning Flux vs. regular flux for sweating copper


I agree with Paul totally but he mentioned something you might not know
what he was talking about, I didnt' at first. They make copper
connectors with the solder already in them. Since I'm not a pro I had
much better luck with those type. I added a little bit more solder even
though you probably don't have to, but none of those leaked for me.

J



Paul Franklin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 21:35:50 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:


Awl--

I've always used "regular" flux for sweating, but the wife brought home, by
accident, Oatey #95 *tinning flux*, which seems it might actually be a good
idea, perhaps helping solder flow into the joint by "pre-wetting" it a
little.
I also have the Oatey #5 regular solder paste.
Any opinions on which would better facilitate a fairly lengthy plumbing job
I have ahead of me?

Any other tips? For example, is emery better than steel wool for cleaning
joints? Is one solder better than another? etc.
I'll be using a prestolyte-type setup w/ an acetylene B tank, doing mostly
1/2", but also some 3/4, 1", 1.25".
I tend to be liberal w/ threaded adapters, for things like valves, check
valves, and other stuff, as I'm more comfortable w/ the threaded versions of
those, and have actually screwed a few up in the sweating process.

Also, any opinions on joint compound for threaded joints? I don't know if
it's cheap fittings or just me getting old, but I've actually had to use
plumber's string and dope to get rid of stubborn leaks. Someone recommended
RectoSeal, which I bought but have not used yet. Pretty expensive.

TIA.



I like the tinning flux...it flashes silver when the joint reaches
temperature so it helps me not overheat the joint. Other than that, I
don't notice much difference.

Personally, I prefer plumber's cloth to steel wool by far. And I
don't try to use a single piece for more than a few joints. It cuts
better when fresh, and it's cheap.

Other tips? Clean, clean, clean. After cleaning the pipe with
plumber's cloth or the fitting with an inside brush, I give it a quick
wipe with a clean rag to remove the grit and loosened grime. Then I
flux imediately. I don't like to leave cleaned pieces sitting around
for a long time before sweating them. I also like to clean the end of
the fitting. I think it helps the solder form a smooth fillet.

If you have a lot of fittings to clean, cut the handle off a fitting
brush and chuck it in a drill.

Take the time to remove the melted flux with a damp rag after the
joints cool. And a piece of scotchbrite pad cleans the joint up nice
after the wet rag.

Rectorseal's good stuff. Since I hate leaks, I use teflon tape AND
rectorseal on threaded joints. Tape first, then the dope. Haven't
had one leak in a very long time with that combo. But if you have a
big job, get over your tendency to go with threaded versions and
adaptors when sweat versions are available. It will save you a lot of
pieces and a lot of joints.

Good luck with your project.

Paul

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Posted to alt.home.repair
Keith
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tinning Flux vs. regular flux for sweating copper

On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 23:41:56 +0000, Ralph Mowery wrote:


"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...
Awl--

I've always used "regular" flux for sweating, but the wife brought home,

by
accident, Oatey #95 *tinning flux*, which seems it might actually be a

good
idea, perhaps helping solder flow into the joint by "pre-wetting" it a
little.
I also have the Oatey #5 regular solder paste.
Any opinions on which would better facilitate a fairly lengthy plumbing

job
I have ahead of me?

Any other tips? For example, is emery better than steel wool for cleaning
joints? Is one solder better than another? etc.
I'll be using a prestolyte-type setup w/ an acetylene B tank, doing mostly
1/2", but also some 3/4, 1", 1.25".
I tend to be liberal w/ threaded adapters, for things like valves, check
valves, and other stuff, as I'm more comfortable w/ the threaded versions

of
those, and have actually screwed a few up in the sweating process.


Use the old 50/50 tin/lead mix instead of the new lead free stuff. Make
sure the pipe and fitting are both clean and bright.


Oh, good idea. That way when you sell your house the PC police can force
you to replumb the entire house when you've been found to have
"non-conforming" plumbing. No, I don't think there is anything wrong with
Pb Plumbing, but it's simply not done anymore.

--
Keith
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Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Tinning Flux vs. regular flux for sweating copper

replying to Joey, Thomas wrote:
J_nospam_ls wrote:

I agree with Paul totally but he mentioned something you might not know
what he was talking about, I didnt' at first. They make copper
connectors with the solder already in them. Since I'm not a pro I had
much better luck with those type. I added a little bit more solder even
though you probably don't have to, but none of those leaked for me.
J



I was wondering where to find these copper with solder in them. I've
looked around and can not locate them. Thanks.

--


  #9   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 22,192
Default Tinning Flux vs. regular flux for sweating copper

On Mon, 20 Oct 2014 16:44:02 +0000, Thomas
wrote:

They make copper
connectors with the solder already in them. Since I'm not a pro I had
much better luck with those type. I added a little bit more solder even
though you probably don't have to, but none of those leaked for me.
J



I was wondering where to find these copper with solder in them. I've
looked around and can not locate them. Thanks.


Real plumbers won't use them. A smart DIYer won't either!

They cost way more money, still need cleaned and fluxed. Fit the pipes
the old fashion way.
  #10   Report Post  
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,498
Default

I agree with all the previous advice you received, except the bit about using lead/tin solder on water supply piping. You can use it on drain piping, but stick with lead free on the supply piping connections.

I also agree that for the most part, solder connections are more reliable and easier to work with than threaded connections. The only difficulty with solder is that any water leaking in the pipe will thwart your chances of getting a proper solder joint. But, in that case you can always use a Sharkbite fitting to make the repair until you can get the water leak fixed.

You should also be aware that the purpose of flux in both soldering and brazing is to form a physical barrier between the bare metal and the oxygen in the air. If air gets into the joint you're trying to solder, it will form an oxide film on the surface of the bare copper and that oxide film will prevent the molten solder from bonding to the bare copper metal the way it should. (This is precisely why it's best to flux all your pipe ends and sockets immediately after sanding or brushing them. That oxidation process starts the instant you stop removing the oxide layer from the copper.) So, whenever in doubt about a joint that doesn't seem to be taking solder, you can always apply more flux to the hot joint without harming anything. That ensures the joint is full of flux. It's capillary pressure that sucks the molten solder into the joint and pushes the liquid flux out. Capillary pressure will keep the liquid flux in the joint until the solder melts, and it's that liquid flux that prevent air from contacting the bare copper metal.

The reason why they tell you to clean the flux off the soldered joints is because flux contains a chemical called zinc chloride. Zinc chloride becomes an acid when it gets hot, and it dissolves copper oxide much more aggresively than it does bare copper. Consequently, the zinc oxide cleans the pipe ends and sockets of any copper oxide that wasn't removed by sanding or brushing. The concern is that over a long period of time on a hot water supply pipe, that zinc chloride could attack the copper metal, but it'd take forever for any actual harm to come to the copper piping. Still, it's best to clean the excess flux off after every joint.

You should also be aware that copper supply pipe comes in three wall thicknesses. Type M is approved for residential installations. Type L is required in all commercial buildings, and Type K is required in underground installations like lawn sprinkler systems. You can tell these pipes apart by the writing on them. Type M will have red printing, Type L will have Blue printing and Type K will have green printing (IIRC). For the small difference in cost, I would use Type K for any pipes that come out of the wall (like the pipe that comes out of the wall for water supply to the sinks and toilets). Others would disagree that this is necessary, but I've seen Type M copper pipe go out of round with people fighting to get a fitting onto it, and my feeling is that thicker wall copper pipe would prevent the pipe going out of round when it's hot. If it wuz my house, I'd probably use Type L everywhere, and Type K for any pipes that come out of the wall, but it's just harder to justify using Type L everywhere inside the walls when it's not required by code. And, don't skimp on fastening your piping to the wall studs securely. Nothing is worse than water hammer when you hear your copper piping bouncing around inside the walls when you shut off the water faucet quickly. Fastening the piping securely and frequently to the studs and joists will prevent that water hammer nuisance.

I don't think it's a particularily good idea for you to be soldering with acetylene. You can burn off your solder paste with too hot a flame using acetylene. If you're new to soldering, I'd do all your 1/2 and 3/4 inch piping connections with propane, and use MAPP gas for the 1 inch and larger pipe connections. There's absolutely no need to be soldering copper pipe with acetylene, and I can see how that acetylene could cause you to get bad solder joints because your pipes are too hot for the flux to handle, or even too hot for the copper and cause your copper pipes and fitting to go out of round. Your best bet is to buy ANY soldering torch that mixes the fuel with air in a short tube before igniting the mixture. That kind of torch will give you the hottest flame, and that's conducive to good solder joints that don't leak. For the longest time, TURBOTORCH was a very popular torch with plumbers, but now most plumbers go for the convenience of a torch that also has a peizoelectric sparker in the mixing tube to ignite the fuel air mixture quickly and easily. What's important is that the torch mixes the fuel with air before igniting the mixture because that gives you the hottest flame.

Heat the joint from one side and apply the solder from the other. When the solder melts on the far side, everything closer to the torch flame will be hotter and will suck in molten solder.

And, of course, the most common cause of bad solder joints is water in the piping or that the flame isn't hot enough, but another common cause is that the person doing the work didn't allow a path for the expanding hot air inside the piping to escape except through the joint that was being soldered. So, always keep in mind that the air inside the piping your soldering is going to want to expand, and you need to allow for an escape path for that hot air to excape OTHER than the joint you're trying to solder.


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Posts: 1
Default Tinning Flux vs. regular flux for sweating copper

replying to Paul Franklin, Lauriston wrote:
Rectorseal's good stuff. Since I hate leaks, I use teflon tape AND rectorseal

on threaded joints. Tape first, then the dope. Haven't had one leak in a very
long time with that combo.

I work work with industrial and marine machinery, regularly encounter
substandard NPT threads from assorted countries. When this occurs: Wrap with
teflon tape in an overlapping spiral, but only once, then a coat of teflon
paste sealant. Smooth it with your finger, then another layer of teflon tape.
Avoid the tendency to apply excessive layers of teflon tape, Assuming you do
not want teflon shreds in whatever you are working on, leave one or two
leading threads without any teflon tape. The teflon paste is available in
small tubes at ACE HDWE or for larger tubes go to a Loctite distributor. This
method has also been very successful with PVC threaded NPT fittings for my
home sprinkler system.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...er-105810-.htm


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