I posted a while back that I might have aluminum wiring in the house I
bought last May.
The original post is here http://tinyurl.com/qvdbb ).

Turns out I do have copper clad aluminum wiring throughout the entire
house. The sheathing is marked "Al Cu/clad" either 10/2 or 12/2
attached to a 20 or 15 amp breaker respectively. Since the house was
built in '75 I specifically asked the inspector to check for aluminum
wiring. He told me the house had none. I know, I should have checked
further before completing the sale.

I'm thinking he should have known for two reasons, the sheathing is
marked Cu/clad throughout the basement (unfinished) and the size of the
wires in the panel are 10 and 12 with mostly 15 amp breakers.

So the attorney says I would most likely need two things to seek
damages from the inspector:
1. An estimate to repair/replace the wiring. Should be fairly easy to
get an estimate.
2. An expert to testify as to the unsafe conditions caused by the
wiring.

Number two is where I'm thinking I will have a problem. Aluminum
wiring *IS* a hazard even if installed properly in 1975 by a licensed
electrician using a proper calibrated torque wrench to tighten all
connections. But the CPSC states in it's bulletin,
www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/516.pdf ,
that copper coated aluminum wire is not covered by any of the repair
methods in their bulletin.

So, does anyone know of an 'expert' in NJ that would testify that
Cu/clad aluminum is dangerous or of an attorney in NJ that has
experience in litigating botched home inspections?

"RayV" writes:

I posted a while back that I might have aluminum wiring in the house I
bought last May.
The original post is here http://tinyurl.com/qvdbb ).

Turns out I do have copper clad aluminum wiring throughout the entire
house. The sheathing is marked "Al Cu/clad" either 10/2 or 12/2

At this site:

http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum.htm

I see this:

J. Safety of HOMES Wired WITH COPPER-CLAD ALUMINUM WIRE

Copper-clad aluminum wire has a thin copper outer skin and a core of
aluminum. Therefore it looks like copper, except on close examination
of a cut end. Markings on the cable jacket would include "Al" or
"Aluminum". There is no known history of connection overheating
problems associated with copper-clad aluminum wire. No corrective
actions are required for copper-clad aluminum wire.

RayV wrote:
I posted a while back that I might have aluminum wiring in the house I
bought last May.
The original post is here http://tinyurl.com/qvdbb ).

Turns out I do have copper clad aluminum wiring throughout the entire
house. The sheathing is marked "Al Cu/clad" either 10/2 or 12/2
attached to a 20 or 15 amp breaker respectively. Since the house was
built in '75 I specifically asked the inspector to check for aluminum
wiring. He told me the house had none. I know, I should have checked
further before completing the sale.

I'm thinking he should have known for two reasons, the sheathing is
marked Cu/clad throughout the basement (unfinished) and the size of the
wires in the panel are 10 and 12 with mostly 15 amp breakers.

So the attorney says I would most likely need two things to seek
damages from the inspector:
1. An estimate to repair/replace the wiring. Should be fairly easy to
get an estimate.
2. An expert to testify as to the unsafe conditions caused by the
wiring.

Number two is where I'm thinking I will have a problem. Aluminum
wiring *IS* a hazard even if installed properly in 1975 by a licensed
electrician using a proper calibrated torque wrench to tighten all
connections. But the CPSC states in it's bulletin,
www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/516.pdf ,
that copper coated aluminum wire is not covered by any of the repair
methods in their bulletin.

So, does anyone know of an 'expert' in NJ that would testify that
Cu/clad aluminum is dangerous or of an attorney in NJ that has
experience in litigating botched home inspections?

Hi,
I am not near NJ but I think you're over reacting. Properly installed Al
wires don't cause trouble. My last house had Al wire built in '76.
Until sold it in '94 I did not have any trouble.

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 22:37:32 -0400, Dan Espen
wrote:

"RayV" writes:

I posted a while back that I might have aluminum wiring in the house I
bought last May.
The original post is here http://tinyurl.com/qvdbb ).

Turns out I do have copper clad aluminum wiring throughout the entire
house. The sheathing is marked "Al Cu/clad" either 10/2 or 12/2

I"m not an attorney, just a cynic (who has in the past hired lawyers
on *three* occasions who turned out to be not good at their jobs, even
though one came with a recommendation by someone who for certain did
not lie to me. I guess what he asked the lawyer to do, the lawyer
knew how to do.)

Things to consider that might or might not be fatal:

Does the contract with the inspection company limit your remedies when
they makek a mistake? For example, limit them to return of the
inspection fee? Would this be a valid limitation? I bring this up
because places that develop film limit damages to the cost of the
film, even if something pricelsess, or with a large determinable
price, was photographed with it. There is a difference of course.
The whole purpose of the inspection is to save yourself from something
like this, whereas the purpose of developing is to develop.

More bleow:

At this site:

http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum.htm

I see this:

J. Safety of HOMES Wired WITH COPPER-CLAD ALUMINUM WIRE

Copper-clad aluminum wire has a thin copper outer skin and a core of
aluminum. Therefore it looks like copper, except on close examination
of a cut end. Markings on the cable jacket would include "Al" or
"Aluminum". There is no known history of connection overheating
problems associated with copper-clad aluminum wire. No corrective
actions are required for copper-clad aluminum wire.

Did this suprpise you? Is it known that coppper clad is different
from (better than?) plain aluminum? Well known?

If the inspection company says it said there wasn't aluminum and there
wasn't, only copper clad aluminum, I don't think that will fly. But
if there are no damages, that will be a problem for the pllaintiff.


OP check out alt.legal, which is good. And there is iirc,
alt.legal.moderated.

Don't rely on the bar association referral. I just asked a question
and then got hounded (2 or 3 calls) by a lawyer who wanted the job.
For lack of any other ideas, I hired him and it was a true waste of
money. I said the person wouldn't talk to me, and he said "She'll
talk to me", but she didn't. He sat there through the entire
homeowners meeting charging me, after her first refusal during the
meeting, when I was suggesting to him that he leave. He tried again
at the end and got no further. I got nothing out of the money I paid
him. That's one of the three bad ones. Some lawyers are a lot better.

Let us know how things go.

for peace of mind, sounds like you need to sell or rewire.
every home has room for improvements and upgrades.
Preventing Home Fires: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCIs)
see:
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/afci.html

In article . com, "RayV" wrote:


Number two is where I'm thinking I will have a problem. Aluminum
wiring *IS* a hazard even if installed properly in 1975 by a licensed
electrician using a proper calibrated torque wrench to tighten all
connections.

Yes, indeed, you do have a problem here, because you're starting from a false
premise: properly installed aluminum wiring is *not* a hazard. The dangers of
aluminum wiring result from its being much more difficult than copper to
install properly. Properly installed copper-clad aluminum is even less of a
problem.


So, does anyone know of an 'expert' in NJ that would testify that
Cu/clad aluminum is dangerous or of an attorney in NJ that has
experience in litigating botched home inspections?

I imagine if you look hard enough, you can find an 'expert' who's willing to
testify to *anything* for the right price, even if it isn't true.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"RayV" wrote in message
ups.com...
I posted a while back that I might have aluminum wiring in the house I
bought last May.
The original post is here http://tinyurl.com/qvdbb ).

Turns out I do have copper clad aluminum wiring throughout the entire
house. The sheathing is marked "Al Cu/clad" either 10/2 or 12/2
attached to a 20 or 15 amp breaker respectively. Since the house was
built in '75 I specifically asked the inspector to check for aluminum
wiring. He told me the house had none. I know, I should have checked
further before completing the sale.

I'm thinking he should have known for two reasons, the sheathing is
marked Cu/clad throughout the basement (unfinished) and the size of the
wires in the panel are 10 and 12 with mostly 15 amp breakers.

So the attorney says I would most likely need two things to seek
damages from the inspector:
1. An estimate to repair/replace the wiring. Should be fairly easy to
get an estimate.
2. An expert to testify as to the unsafe conditions caused by the
wiring.

Number two is where I'm thinking I will have a problem. Aluminum
wiring *IS* a hazard even if installed properly in 1975 by a licensed
electrician using a proper calibrated torque wrench to tighten all
connections. But the CPSC states in it's bulletin,
www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/516.pdf ,
that copper coated aluminum wire is not covered by any of the repair
methods in their bulletin.

So, does anyone know of an 'expert' in NJ that would testify that
Cu/clad aluminum is dangerous or of an attorney in NJ that has
experience in litigating botched home inspections?


What damages have you incurred since you bought the house? Have you had any
house fires? Any problems that required you to hire an electrician to fix.
Would you have cancelled the purchase contract if you knew of the aluminum
wiring? Did you ask the previous owner if the house had aluminum wiring?

I think that your only recourse against the inspector is to try to recover
your inspection fee costs and you can do that in small claims court. Send
the inspector a certified letter asking for his fee back based on the faulty
report. You should also report him to the attorney general's office. I
think the home inspectors are licensed by the same board that issues
licenses for professional engineers.

Save your money on expert witnesses and hourly rate attorneys and use it to
make home improvements. Thousands of other people have aluminum wiring in
their homes and are able to get on with their lives.

junk wiring well known to cause fires, requires all SPECIAL switches
and connectors.

theres a home inspections group they invite public questions. I think
the inspector should be on the hook, since the wiring was clearly
marked, plus the original homeowner should of disclosed it, if they
knew....

worse if the current homeowner sells he MUST disclose it and take a big
hit on price.

did the buyer use a lawyer? if he did this is the time to call him

if the buyer used a realtor time to call them

frankly if it were me i would have the home completely rewired

RayV wrote:
I posted a while back that I might have aluminum wiring in the house I
bought last May.
The original post is here http://tinyurl.com/qvdbb ).

Turns out I do have copper clad aluminum wiring throughout the entire
house. The sheathing is marked "Al Cu/clad" either 10/2 or 12/2
attached to a 20 or 15 amp breaker respectively. Since the house was
built in '75 I specifically asked the inspector to check for aluminum
wiring. He told me the house had none. I know, I should have checked
further before completing the sale.

I'm thinking he should have known for two reasons, the sheathing is
marked Cu/clad throughout the basement (unfinished) and the size of the
wires in the panel are 10 and 12 with mostly 15 amp breakers.

So the attorney says I would most likely need two things to seek
damages from the inspector:
1. An estimate to repair/replace the wiring. Should be fairly easy to
get an estimate.
2. An expert to testify as to the unsafe conditions caused by the
wiring.

Number two is where I'm thinking I will have a problem. Aluminum
wiring *IS* a hazard even if installed properly in 1975 by a licensed
electrician using a proper calibrated torque wrench to tighten all
connections. But the CPSC states in it's bulletin,
www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/516.pdf ,
that copper coated aluminum wire is not covered by any of the repair
methods in their bulletin.

So, does anyone know of an 'expert' in NJ that would testify that
Cu/clad aluminum is dangerous or of an attorney in NJ that has
experience in litigating botched home inspection

RayV:

Honestly, I wouldn't worry so much. Have a competent electrician look
over
the system to tell you whether it's safe. A home inspector is not
going to
notice everything. They'll likely notice stuff you won't, but you'll
also notice
stuff they don't, if you take care to look closely. This also annoys
realtors,
which makes it all the more fun to do...

Chances are your house's copper-clad wiring system is safer than a lot
of
solid copper ones in earlier houses. The old wire had purer copper,
which
was nice, and if properly installed it was safe, but it's often got
crumbly and
rodent-eaten insulation. You'll find wires twisted together without
solder or
nuts (just yesterday I found a wire looped around another then bent
over.
This was carrying current for 30 years). You'll find massively
overstuffed
junction boxes, no boxes at fixtures, fraying SE cable, rotten old
Zinsco or
FPE service equipment, 15 amp circuits 'protected' at 30A, rusty BX
cable,
grounds wrapped and soldered around pipes,

Can you sue the home inspector? Legally, maybe. Ethically, I would say
no.
You are obviously fairly knowledgeable about wiring, and recognized the
'Cu/clad' markings. Our home insp. missed stuff, some of which I
caught
later -- but such is life; we can not expect to insure against
everything.
But seriously, I don't think you should worry too much. The big
problem is
the oxidation, and the cladding prevents that. Don't use back-wired
devices,
and keep your screws tight.

Doug said:

"Yes, indeed, you do have a problem here, because you're starting from
a false
premise: properly installed aluminum wiring is *not* a hazard."

Ray replied:

Look through and read the info at this website:
http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/pl2p1.htm
Just continue clicking page forward on each page to get more
information. None of the connections have anti-oxidant applied. None
of the connections are pigtailed with the COPALUM connectors. None of
the connections have the 3M scotchlock wirenuts (purple ideal 65 nuts
are no good). Anyway, *properly* installed aluminum wiring is
installed a lot different now than it was 31 years ago.

My situation is different in that I have copper-clad aluminum which may
or may not be as much of a hazard. It wasn't on the market very long
and the repairs for straight aluminum do not apply.

To me the real issue is that I specifically asked the inspector to
check for aluminum wiring and he specifically stated the house had
copper wiring. It doesn't matter to me that Doug wouldn't mind having
aluminum wiring in his house, I didn't want it in mine. The bottom
line is I would have cancelled the sale if I had known about the wiring.

I think many respondents are missing the OP's questions.
1) Is the wiring safe?
2) What remedies are available for the poor inspection?

I'd guess #2 depends on the answer to #1. I'd also guess that
the cost of litigating this might exceed the cost of rewiring the house.
Cost = Dollars (presumably recoverable if you win) + headache (which
remains, win or lose).

RayV wrote:
I posted a while back that I might have aluminum wiring in the house I
bought last May.
The original post is here http://tinyurl.com/qvdbb ).

Turns out I do have copper clad aluminum wiring throughout the entire
house. The sheathing is marked "Al Cu/clad" either 10/2 or 12/2
attached to a 20 or 15 amp breaker respectively. Since the house was
built in '75 I specifically asked the inspector to check for aluminum
wiring. He told me the house had none. I know, I should have checked
further before completing the sale.

I'm thinking he should have known for two reasons, the sheathing is
marked Cu/clad throughout the basement (unfinished) and the size of the
wires in the panel are 10 and 12 with mostly 15 amp breakers.

So the attorney says I would most likely need two things to seek
damages from the inspector:
1. An estimate to repair/replace the wiring. Should be fairly easy to
get an estimate.
2. An expert to testify as to the unsafe conditions caused by the
wiring.

Number two is where I'm thinking I will have a problem. Aluminum
wiring *IS* a hazard even if installed properly in 1975 by a licensed
electrician using a proper calibrated torque wrench to tighten all
connections. But the CPSC states in it's bulletin,
www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/516.pdf ,
that copper coated aluminum wire is not covered by any of the repair
methods in their bulletin.

So, does anyone know of an 'expert' in NJ that would testify that
Cu/clad aluminum is dangerous or of an attorney in NJ that has
experience in litigating botched home inspections?

you know the homes resale value may be less because of the copper clad
wire, just the fact its off the market is a bad sign,

you know the homes resale value may be less because of the copper clad
wire, just the fact its off the market is a bad sign,

I asked about this at a home inspectors forum. interesting discussion.
http://www.nachi.org/forum/showthrea...1378#post41378

In article .com, "RayV" wrote:
Doug said:

"Yes, indeed, you do have a problem here, because you're starting from
a false
premise: properly installed aluminum wiring is *not* a hazard."

Ray replied:

Look through and read the info at this website:
http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum/pl2p1.htm
Just continue clicking page forward on each page to get more
information. None of the connections have anti-oxidant applied. None
of the connections are pigtailed with the COPALUM connectors. None of
the connections have the 3M scotchlock wirenuts (purple ideal 65 nuts
are no good). Anyway, *properly* installed aluminum wiring is
installed a lot different now than it was 31 years ago.

My situation is different in that I have copper-clad aluminum which may
or may not be as much of a hazard.

It isn't.

It wasn't on the market very long
and the repairs for straight aluminum do not apply.

To me the real issue is that I specifically asked the inspector to
check for aluminum wiring and he specifically stated the house had
copper wiring. It doesn't matter to me that Doug wouldn't mind having
aluminum wiring in his house,

Don't read things I didn't write.

I didn't want it in mine.

And you don't. You have copper-clad aluminum, which is *not* the same thing.

The bottom
line is I would have cancelled the sale if I had known about the wiring.



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On 10 Apr 2006 18:20:23 -0700, "RayV" wrote:

I posted a while back that I might have aluminum wiring in the house I
bought last May.
The original post is here http://tinyurl.com/qvdbb ).

Turns out I do have copper clad aluminum wiring throughout the entire
house. The sheathing is marked "Al Cu/clad" either 10/2 or 12/2
attached to a 20 or 15 amp breaker respectively. Since the house was
built in '75 I specifically asked the inspector to check for aluminum
wiring. He told me the house had none. I know, I should have checked
further before completing the sale.

I'm thinking he should have known for two reasons, the sheathing is
marked Cu/clad throughout the basement (unfinished) and the size of the
wires in the panel are 10 and 12 with mostly 15 amp breakers.

So the attorney says I would most likely need two things to seek
damages from the inspector:
1. An estimate to repair/replace the wiring. Should be fairly easy to
get an estimate.
2. An expert to testify as to the unsafe conditions caused by the
wiring.

Number two is where I'm thinking I will have a problem. Aluminum
wiring *IS* a hazard even if installed properly in 1975 by a licensed
electrician using a proper calibrated torque wrench to tighten all
connections. But the CPSC states in it's bulletin,
www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/516.pdf ,
that copper coated aluminum wire is not covered by any of the repair
methods in their bulletin.

So, does anyone know of an 'expert' in NJ that would testify that
Cu/clad aluminum is dangerous or of an attorney in NJ that has
experience in litigating botched home inspections?

Funny I have a house built in 1993, and I have aluminum wire. 4/0 SE
cable, wonder if I have a lawsuit too.



tom

On 11 Apr 2006 04:18:28 -0700, "
wrote:

junk wiring well known to cause fires, requires all SPECIAL switches
and connectors.

theres a home inspections group they invite public questions. I think
the inspector should be on the hook, since the wiring was clearly
marked, plus the original homeowner should of disclosed it, if they
knew....

worse if the current homeowner sells he MUST disclose it and take a big
hit on price.

I don't understand, aluminim branch circuit wiring must be disclosed
in NJ?


tom


did the buyer use a lawyer? if he did this is the time to call him

if the buyer used a realtor time to call them

frankly if it were me i would have the home completely rewired

Thanks for posting the question. I came across similar discussions on
other inspector forums. It is burning me up that I directly ask this
guy to check for aluminum wiring and he looks in the panel and says "It
is all copper wire". Totally missing the fact that the 15 amp circuits
are 12 gauge and the 20 amps are 10 gauge.

It seems as though these guys are totally untouchable. I did find one
example where one was held liable for missing mold. Probably since
that is the issue de jour on the news.

RayV wrote:
Thanks for posting the question. I came across similar discussions on
other inspector forums. It is burning me up that I directly ask this
guy to check for aluminum wiring and he looks in the panel and says "It
is all copper wire". Totally missing the fact that the 15 amp circuits
are 12 gauge and the 20 amps are 10 gauge.

Ray, you have an opinion based on problems with different wiring -
aluminum wiring. The different wiring had the problem, not the stuff
you have. Your opinion needs changing, not the wire.

It should please you to note that the wiring size is correct for the
copper clad aluminum. It's a sign that the electrician didn't skimp,
and a good omen.

It seems as though these guys are totally untouchable. I did find one
example where one was held liable for missing mold. Probably since
that is the issue de jour on the news.

This, from your original post, is the most telling part of the story:
" I know, I should have checked further before completing the sale.

I'm thinking he should have known for two reasons, the sheathing is
marked Cu/clad throughout the basement (unfinished) and the size of the
wires in the panel are 10 and 12 with mostly 15 amp breakers. "

Since you had major concerns about the wiring, and since it was readily
visible, you're right, you should have checked further. There's
nothing wrong with double checking someone, particularly in the
critical areas of concern. Lesson learned, I hope.

The typical procedure for checking for aluminum wiring is to open up
the electrical panel and an outlet or two. If there's silver visible,
there's aluminum wiring. That's most likely what the inspector did,
and he probably felt he was being thorough.

He didn't miss aluminum wiring, he missed copper clad aluminum which is
entirely different. Could you get your money back in small claims
court? Maybe, maybe not. I do know that ethically it's on
questionable ground as you're trying to lump different wiring with _no_
known problems into the same category as the wiring with _all_ of the
problems. That's sketchy at best.

Like I said at the start, your old opinion was based on a different
material, now, with more education in the matter, you may want to
rethink it. Or, if you're so inclined, you could let your imagination
run away with you, thinking that your house will be the first one on
record to burn down due to copper clad aluminum wiring, and let the
thought eat away at you and ruin your enjoyment of your new home. The
first option is much wiser - rethink the opinion and move on.

R

On 11 Apr 2006 18:08:47 -0700, "RayV" wrote:

Thanks for posting the question. I came across similar discussions on
other inspector forums. It is burning me up that I directly ask this
guy to check for aluminum wiring and he looks in the panel and says "It
is all copper wire". Totally missing the fact that the 15 amp circuits
are 12 gauge and the 20 amps are 10 gauge.

I didn't say so before, but I know how you feel, and I agree. A big
part of life seems to be learning to get past stuff like this.

I"m not good at it, so I try to do as little commerce as possible.

It seems as though these guys are totally untouchable. I did find one
example where one was held liable for missing mold. Probably since
that is the issue de jour on the news.

On 11 Apr 2006 05:37:47 -0700, "RayV" wrote:


To me the real issue is that I specifically asked the inspector to
check for aluminum wiring and he specifically stated the house had
copper wiring. It doesn't matter to me that Doug wouldn't mind having
aluminum wiring in his house, I didn't want it in mine. The bottom
line is I would have cancelled the sale if I had known about the wiring.

I appreciate your situation. If you can't sue for more, sue for what
you paid him, in small claims. If he's a fool he may agree to appear
on a tv court show. People's Court is the best. Judge Judy the worst.
I haven't watched the others.

After DAGS, (a whole lot of them) I have found that the inspectors
waiver would probably not hold up in NJ.

http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/decisi...11-01.opn.html

Now I have to find an attorney...

The bug guy showed me how extensive the damage is in the basement, sill
plate compressed under a few joists and the rim joist is pretty chewed
up. House is in no danger falling down but would easily be found by a
decent inspector.

I'm still too ticked off to let this go right now. Maybe a discussion
with an attorney will convince me to let it go...

You may be right, I may be crazy, but for right now I'll hold on to my
anger to help keep me warm.

Funny I have a house built in 1993, and I have aluminum wire. 4/0 SE
cable, wonder if I have a lawsuit too.

4/0 guage aluminum is service entrance wire, not branch circuit wire.
I think most homes use aluminum service entrance wire because it is
much cheaper than copper.

I also found in NJAC 13:40-15.16, the standards of practice for
inspectors in NJ, that inspectors are required to:

(i) 1. Inspect
ii. Main disconnects, main panel and sub panels, including interior
components of main panel and sub panels;
v. Over-current protection devices and the compatibility of their
ampacity with that of the connected wiring;

(i) 2. Describe (report in writing)
iv. Predominant type of wiring;
vi. Presence of solid conductor aluminum branch circuit wiring.

source:
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/ca/adoption/hiado63.htm

Also, the standards of practice for the American Sociaety of Home
Inspectors requires that inspectors report in writing "on the presence
of solid conductor aluminum branch circuit wiring".
http://www.ashi.org/documents/pdf/standards.pdf
7.1, C, 1

In addition, the Examination Board of Professional Home Inspectors
hanbook indicates that inspectors should be familiar with "Problems
with aluminum wire"
http://www.homeinspectionexam.org/pd...andbookrev.pdf
section II, Task 4, c., 4

Yes, I am obsessing about this but when you pay somebody to do a job,
they should do what they are paid to do. Especially when they are
licensed experts in a particular field.

See my post from earlier today, it shows that inspectors in NJ are
required to report in writing the presence of aluminum wiring in a
house.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...6aa7ebdb2efa94

Small claims might not work because *malpractice* is not eligible for
small claims in NJ. Also the inspector is required to have insurance
so any claim I file will put me up against an attorney from the
insurance company who would bury me in legaleze.

RayV wrote:
See my post from earlier today, it shows that inspectors in NJ are
required to report in writing the presence of aluminum wiring in a
house.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...6aa7ebdb2efa94

Small claims might not work because *malpractice* is not eligible for
small claims in NJ. Also the inspector is required to have insurance
so any claim I file will put me up against an attorney from the
insurance company who would bury me in legaleze.


Just checked the rules for small claims in NJ and I think you are
right. Malpractice suits are prohibited, so I think that route is out.
If you could get it into small claims, I wouldn't worry about the
insurance company sending a lawyer for a possible $3000 case, as it's
not worth their time. More likely they would offer to settle Even if
they did send a lawyer, the judge knows small claims is to give the
little guy a fair shot, so I doubt he'd let a lawyer bury you in
legaleze. But if small claims is out, I don't see any alternative that
makes any sense.

Another possible data point occurred to me. I believe the max you can
hope to recover in any case would be the inspector's fee, plus whatever
a judge would determine is the difference in worth of a house with
copper clad alum vs a house with copper wiring. If you know a real
estate agent, you could see if they have any actual experience in sales
where the inspection uncovered that type wiring, or even full alum
wiring. They could tell you what happened and how much difference it
made in selling price. Even that is probably very hard to determine,
because other factors can be involved. But if you were to pursue this
in any court, that would be evidence you would need to prove damages.
If a realtor tells you it can't be determined or made little
difference, then you know you are gonna have a hard time proving
damages.

I would also check the NJ sellers disclosure law rules at the DCA,
which are pretty strict and what the requirements are for disclosing
alum wiring. You might have a legitimate claim against the seller, if
for example it is required to be disclosed, you can show they knew it
and didn't disclose it. But of course that comes with it's own
problems. You could check with the town for records of electrical
permits pulled and what they show.

On 19 Apr 2006 11:11:09 -0700, "RayV" wrote:

I also found in NJAC 13:40-15.16, the standards of practice for
inspectors in NJ, that inspectors are required to:

(i) 1. Inspect
ii. Main disconnects, main panel and sub panels, including interior
components of main panel and sub panels;
v. Over-current protection devices and the compatibility of their
ampacity with that of the connected wiring;

(i) 2. Describe (report in writing)
iv. Predominant type of wiring;
vi. Presence of solid conductor aluminum branch circuit wiring.

source:
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/ca/adoption/hiado63.htm

Also, the standards of practice for the American Sociaety of Home
Inspectors requires that inspectors report in writing "on the presence
of solid conductor aluminum branch circuit wiring".
http://www.ashi.org/documents/pdf/standards.pdf
7.1, C, 1

In addition, the Examination Board of Professional Home Inspectors
hanbook indicates that inspectors should be familiar with "Problems
with aluminum wire"
http://www.homeinspectionexam.org/pd...andbookrev.pdf
section II, Task 4, c., 4

Yes, I am obsessing about this but when you pay somebody to do a job,
they should do what they are paid to do. Especially when they are
licensed experts in a particular field.


Good information, but keeping score here, wasn't it Copper-clad
Aluminum in you house?

tom

Just guessing here but,

A real estate agent would probably say that it *may* be more difficult
to sell but wouldn't really affect the price. Probably along the lines
of a house with a septic tank or underground oil tank.

I'm thinking of pursuing it for the amount to replace the wiring
throughout the house and corresponding drywall repair and also the
amount of the exterminators fee and replacement of the sill plate and
rim joist. Using the SWAG method I estimate:

Wiring $7,500
Drywall $1,500
Structural $5,000
Lawyer -$13,500

Net $500

Maybe I should just call the guy and ask for my money back...

On 20 Apr 2006 05:53:32 -0700, "RayV" wrote:

Details, details.

Yes it is copper-clad aluminum but the requirements for wire size and
fixtures are the same as for aluminum. An example is in a 20 Amp
circuit you have to use 10 wire so you can't use a *standard*
recepticle or switch because the screws heads are too small to reliably
hold a wire of that size.

If I had regular aluminum wiring without the copper-cladding I would
not be hesitant to seek damages. This copper-clad crap is relatively
rare so almost no info is available about it.


IMHO:

Copper-Clad wire is different from Aluminum wire.

Just like A Rum-and-Coke is not a Coke.

Many manufactures bar using their devices with Aluminum wire, but
clearly state their devices are for CU/CU-AL wire. So, in the
industry, AL is not CU-AL, and you said, you have CU-AL not AL.

But I'm guessing this will not solve itself in the NG, but if you
believe you have real issue, I would file a claim against his O&E
insurance company. You should get that information fairly quickly.
Plus file a complaint against the NJ state licencing board.

later,

tom == former Sue-U state member.