Hey all,

Wife and I just bought our first house - living near NYC and being on a
budget sort of limited our options and we had to go with an older
house. It was built in 1923 and according to the inspector has a
steel(?) and wood frame on a block foundation. It's a more or less
square house with a wood main beam going through the center in the
basement (supported by three retrofitted permanent steel posts) and a
brick fireplace and chimney going up from the basement near the back of
the house through the roof.

I unfortunately couldn't be there when the inspection was done, but I
have the inspector's report and talked to him afterwards and he didn't
really mention any major problems that we didn't know about (and have
since had fixed). He did mention in the "structural" area of his
report that the floors slope a bit and that there is some previous
termite damage. He said we might want to get some bracing for the
frame in that area but he didn't sound too worried about it.
Unfortunately, this was several months ago now and I think I
misunderstood which area of the house he was talking about, and I doubt
he remembers at this point. I never thought much of it because he
didn't mark it as one of the "major deficiencies" on the first page of
the report, and the termite infestation was 30 years ago so I figured
any damage that had been done would have manifested itself long ago.

Now, though, having fixed some other problems and thinking we're going
to move on to cosmetic issues, I'm starting to obssess over the fact
that the floor on the second story above the fireplace is about one
inch higher than the floor immediately adjacent to it on all sides, and
the rear window above the stairs (which runs behind the fireplace) is
similarly oddly angled. The bedroom that sits about half above the
fireplace is like a carnival funhouse of strange angles - we haven't
been using this bedroom (half our stuff is still packed away in it) so
it's been a while since I really looked at it and it's starting to get
me spooked. I can deal with it as it is, I just don't want it to
continue getting worse and don't know if it will.

The foundation itself is square and true, as is the first floor of the
house. It's obvious that the rear of the second floor of the house has
settled from the top down, and it's settled around the fireplace. My
question is, how worried should I be about this at this point? And how
big of a repair is it to add bracing to the frame in that area? I have
looked around for any new cracking in the walls and I don't see
anything that's obviously recent - a few cracks since the previous
owners last painted but that looks like it was about ten years ago at
least.

The top of the chimney also leans a bit (it's quite a tall chimney);
the inspector did not note this as a problem in his report so we didn't
even consider it before buying the house. But now I'm wondering if
this is being pulled by one side of the house or if it's simply settled
on itself.

I am trying to decide if it's worth just getting another home
inspection done to confirm that this is not a serious and pressing
problem. I do know that most old houses have some settlement issues
and that you're not going to see completely square angles everywhere.
I'm just hoping this is something we can put off in favor of some other
things we'd like to do first.

Thanks,

Jeff

In article .com,
says...

Hey all,

Wife and I just bought our first house - living near NYC and being on a
budget sort of limited our options and we had to go with an older
house. It was built in 1923 and according to the inspector has a
steel(?) and wood frame on a block foundation. It's a more or less
square house with a wood main beam going through the center in the
basement (supported by three retrofitted permanent steel posts) and a
brick fireplace and chimney going up from the basement near the back of
the house through the roof.

I unfortunately couldn't be there when the inspection was done, but I
have the inspector's report and talked to him afterwards and he didn't
really mention any major problems that we didn't know about (and have
since had fixed). He did mention in the "structural" area of his
report that the floors slope a bit and that there is some previous
termite damage. He said we might want to get some bracing for the
frame in that area but he didn't sound too worried about it.
Unfortunately, this was several months ago now and I think I
misunderstood which area of the house he was talking about, and I doubt
he remembers at this point. I never thought much of it because he
didn't mark it as one of the "major deficiencies" on the first page of
the report, and the termite infestation was 30 years ago so I figured
any damage that had been done would have manifested itself long ago.

Now, though, having fixed some other problems and thinking we're going
to move on to cosmetic issues, I'm starting to obssess over the fact
that the floor on the second story above the fireplace is about one
inch higher than the floor immediately adjacent to it on all sides, and
the rear window above the stairs (which runs behind the fireplace) is
similarly oddly angled. The bedroom that sits about half above the
fireplace is like a carnival funhouse of strange angles - we haven't
been using this bedroom (half our stuff is still packed away in it) so
it's been a while since I really looked at it and it's starting to get
me spooked. I can deal with it as it is, I just don't want it to
continue getting worse and don't know if it will.

The foundation itself is square and true, as is the first floor of the
house. It's obvious that the rear of the second floor of the house has
settled from the top down, and it's settled around the fireplace. My
question is, how worried should I be about this at this point? And how
big of a repair is it to add bracing to the frame in that area? I have
looked around for any new cracking in the walls and I don't see
anything that's obviously recent - a few cracks since the previous
owners last painted but that looks like it was about ten years ago at
least.

The top of the chimney also leans a bit (it's quite a tall chimney);
the inspector did not note this as a problem in his report so we didn't
even consider it before buying the house. But now I'm wondering if
this is being pulled by one side of the house or if it's simply settled
on itself.

I am trying to decide if it's worth just getting another home
inspection done to confirm that this is not a serious and pressing
problem. I do know that most old houses have some settlement issues
and that you're not going to see completely square angles everywhere.
I'm just hoping this is something we can put off in favor of some other
things we'd like to do first.

Another home inspect might do, but what you need is an engineer to take a look
at it. You can discuss things like urgency and come up with a written plan
with him or her.

For what it's worth, in twelve years' of residence I've had done some bracing on
a couple areas of my house (an older addition added before code, and under a
ground floor to assure stability for a tile installation), and it's not
necessarily a big deal. The big deal for me was a foundation issue, which you
dont' seem to have, and I can say that, in the end even with that, I find it's a
matter of dealing with what you need to deal with as you go along, while in
every other respect enjoying the attractive features of your older home. As a
knowledgable friend said - "if it hasn't fallen down yet, it ain't gonna". But
if you're anything like me you want to deal with it for your own enjoyment for
years to come and for resale.

Maybe call the original inspector for a reference. A few hundred bucks, but you
get a plan for action and peace of mind.

Isn't New York a disclosure state? You did know about the termite infestation -
did the owner say anything about the sagging?

Regarding the termite infestation - if damaged wood wasn't replaced since then,
you may want to look into it - the bigger problem (as in most likely) in the
northeast is carpenter ants. They eat wood to set up house, not for
nourishment, but they find termite damaged wood to be great digs to live in.

Banty


--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hey all,

Wife and I just bought our first house - living near NYC and being on a
budget sort of limited our options and we had to go with an older
house. It was built in 1923 and according to the inspector has a
steel(?) and wood frame on a block foundation. It's a more or less
square house with a wood main beam going through the center in the
basement (supported by three retrofitted permanent steel posts) and a
brick fireplace and chimney going up from the basement near the back of
the house through the roof. I unfortunately couldn't be there when the
inspection was done, but I
have the inspector's report and talked to him afterwards and he didn't
really mention any major problems that we didn't know about (and have
since had fixed). He did mention in the "structural" area of his
report that the floors slope a bit and that there is some previous
termite damage. He said we might want to get some bracing for the
frame in that area but he didn't sound too worried about it.
Unfortunately, this was several months ago now and I think I
misunderstood which area of the house he was talking about, and I doubt
he remembers at this point. I never thought much of it because he
didn't mark it as one of the "major deficiencies" on the first page of
the report, and the termite infestation was 30 years ago so I figured
any damage that had been done would have manifested itself long ago.
Now, though, having fixed some other problems and thinking we're going
to move on to cosmetic issues, I'm starting to obssess over the fact
that the floor on the second story above the fireplace is about one
inch higher than the floor immediately adjacent to it on all sides, and
the rear window above the stairs (which runs behind the fireplace) is
similarly oddly angled. The bedroom that sits about half above the
fireplace is like a carnival funhouse of strange angles - we haven't
been using this bedroom (half our stuff is still packed away in it) so
it's been a while since I really looked at it and it's starting to get
me spooked. I can deal with it as it is, I just don't want it to
continue getting worse and don't know if it will.
The foundation itself is square and true, as is the first floor of the
house. It's obvious that the rear of the second floor of the house has
settled from the top down, and it's settled around the fireplace. My
question is, how worried should I be about this at this point? And how
big of a repair is it to add bracing to the frame in that area? I have
looked around for any new cracking in the walls and I don't see
anything that's obviously recent - a few cracks since the previous
owners last painted but that looks like it was about ten years ago at
least. The top of the chimney also leans a bit (it's quite a tall
chimney);
the inspector did not note this as a problem in his report so we didn't
even consider it before buying the house. But now I'm wondering if
this is being pulled by one side of the house or if it's simply settled
on itself. I am trying to decide if it's worth just getting another home
inspection done to confirm that this is not a serious and pressing
problem. I do know that most old houses have some settlement issues
and that you're not going to see completely square angles everywhere.
I'm just hoping this is something we can put off in favor of some other
things we'd like to do first.

The steel piers suggest that earlier termite damage or rot was located in
the original wooden piers, and they then used steel as replacement. At that
time, the first floor may have been releveled. Since first and second floors
can settle differently in the same house, once you shim and jack under the
house to level the main floor, certain irregularities will show upstairs,
which may have had different lean angles from the first floor. There is also
the possibility that the house was moved to that location, onto a new
(level) foundation. This would explain the level and true foundation. Or,
you have some additional termite or rot damage between 1st and 2nd floors,
which has canted your upstairs differentially from the first floor. And
there are many other possibilities. Houses often settle, with the chimney
being more stable, with its own foundation, and if floor joists run into the
chimney, that part of your upstairs could be propped up by the unmoving
chimney, while the house settles around it.
I suggest you find a capable structural engineer familiar with your
neighborhood, paid by the hour for consulting services, have him inspect
both the crawl space and the second floor - you may get some insights that
way. He may also suggest that you remove flooring or ceiling in places where
there are jogs in the upstairs, to inspect the cause of the shifting.

Isn't New York a disclosure state? You did know about the termite infestation -
did the owner say anything about the sagging?

Not specifically, but it's pretty obvious if you look. I noticed it
and it is in the inspector's report, just didn't think much of it at
the time - figured it was just an old house. Now that I'm actually the
owner, though, and now that I can see the pattern of the sagging
(around the fireplace), I've just gotten a little obssessive about it.
Every day now I manage to convince myself that things are a little more
off-kilter than the day before.

I wouldn't blame the previous owners for not telling us about the
settling. I'm not even sure it's related to the termites (as Roger
said, they were probably down below - which is what the old owners told
us). I think it's probably more likely some old water damage, or it
could be regular settling for all I know - this is the first old house
I've owned.

the bigger problem (as in most likely) in the northeast is carpenter ants.

I don't think we've got ants - haven't seen a single bug of any kind
since we moved in. Apparently the pesticide they used for the termites
is now outlawed and it's got a half-life of something like 100 years.
Don't know if that's responsible for the absence of all bugs but with
as many little cracks in the wall and at the seams as there are (and
there are quite a few, it's just that most of them are old and look
like regular settling cracks), I'd have thought I'd have seen some
action of some kind if we do have bugs crawling through our walls.

Anyway, I think I will call an engineer - it's another headache to deal
with and even if he gives us good news I'll probably feel like I just
wasted a few hundred bucks (since he'd be telling us the same thing as
the first inspector did), but at least it'll put my mind at ease for a
while...

Wood frame houses frequently settle as the wood takes up a sag or as warps
are bent out by the weight and by drying out. This can be as much as an inch
in a two story house. In the past a chimney was often used as a support,
being masonry it will not settle like wood and the resulting difference
could explain the second story level problems.

Present building codes do not allow chimneys to be used as support, all wood
has to be kept at least 2 inches away from the chimney masonry.


"Roger" wrote in message
. ..

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hey all,

Wife and I just bought our first house - living near NYC and being on a
budget sort of limited our options and we had to go with an older
house. It was built in 1923 and according to the inspector has a
steel(?) and wood frame on a block foundation. It's a more or less
square house with a wood main beam going through the center in the
basement (supported by three retrofitted permanent steel posts) and a
brick fireplace and chimney going up from the basement near the back of
the house through the roof. I unfortunately couldn't be there when the
inspection was done, but I
have the inspector's report and talked to him afterwards and he didn't
really mention any major problems that we didn't know about (and have
since had fixed). He did mention in the "structural" area of his
report that the floors slope a bit and that there is some previous
termite damage. He said we might want to get some bracing for the
frame in that area but he didn't sound too worried about it.
Unfortunately, this was several months ago now and I think I
misunderstood which area of the house he was talking about, and I doubt
he remembers at this point. I never thought much of it because he
didn't mark it as one of the "major deficiencies" on the first page of
the report, and the termite infestation was 30 years ago so I figured
any damage that had been done would have manifested itself long ago.
Now, though, having fixed some other problems and thinking we're going
to move on to cosmetic issues, I'm starting to obssess over the fact
that the floor on the second story above the fireplace is about one
inch higher than the floor immediately adjacent to it on all sides, and
the rear window above the stairs (which runs behind the fireplace) is
similarly oddly angled. The bedroom that sits about half above the
fireplace is like a carnival funhouse of strange angles - we haven't
been using this bedroom (half our stuff is still packed away in it) so
it's been a while since I really looked at it and it's starting to get
me spooked. I can deal with it as it is, I just don't want it to
continue getting worse and don't know if it will.
The foundation itself is square and true, as is the first floor of the
house. It's obvious that the rear of the second floor of the house has
settled from the top down, and it's settled around the fireplace. My
question is, how worried should I be about this at this point? And how
big of a repair is it to add bracing to the frame in that area? I have
looked around for any new cracking in the walls and I don't see
anything that's obviously recent - a few cracks since the previous
owners last painted but that looks like it was about ten years ago at
least. The top of the chimney also leans a bit (it's quite a tall
chimney);
the inspector did not note this as a problem in his report so we didn't
even consider it before buying the house. But now I'm wondering if
this is being pulled by one side of the house or if it's simply settled
on itself. I am trying to decide if it's worth just getting another home
inspection done to confirm that this is not a serious and pressing
problem. I do know that most old houses have some settlement issues
and that you're not going to see completely square angles everywhere.
I'm just hoping this is something we can put off in favor of some other
things we'd like to do first.

The steel piers suggest that earlier termite damage or rot was located in
the original wooden piers, and they then used steel as replacement. At
that time, the first floor may have been releveled. Since first and second
floors can settle differently in the same house, once you shim and jack
under the house to level the main floor, certain irregularities will show
upstairs, which may have had different lean angles from the first floor.
There is also the possibility that the house was moved to that location,
onto a new (level) foundation. This would explain the level and true
foundation. Or, you have some additional termite or rot damage between 1st
and 2nd floors, which has canted your upstairs differentially from the
first floor. And there are many other possibilities. Houses often settle,
with the chimney being more stable, with its own foundation, and if floor
joists run into the chimney, that part of your upstairs could be propped
up by the unmoving chimney, while the house settles around it.
I suggest you find a capable structural engineer familiar with your
neighborhood, paid by the hour for consulting services, have him inspect
both the crawl space and the second floor - you may get some insights that
way. He may also suggest that you remove flooring or ceiling in places
where there are jogs in the upstairs, to inspect the cause of the
shifting.

Eric Tonks wrote:

Wood frame houses frequently settle as the wood takes up a sag or as warps
are bent out by the weight and by drying out. This can be as much as an inch
in a two story house. In the past a chimney was often used as a support,
being masonry it will not settle like wood and the resulting difference
could explain the second story level problems.

Present building codes do not allow chimneys to be used as support, all wood
has to be kept at least 2 inches away from the chimney masonry.


Yep - chimney supporting the joists is the problem (although I heard
that frost heave caused the chimney to lift - but same effect) and
de-coupling the joists from the chimney and adding any necessary double
joists and/or headers is the solution.

Yep - chimney supporting the joists is the problem (although I heard
that frost heave caused the chimney to lift - but same effect) and
de-coupling the joists from the chimney and adding any necessary double
joists and/or headers is the solution.

Interesting. So the basic problem is not that part of the house is
falling down, but that the other part of the house is being forced to
stay *up*? And the solution is to basically just let the part that's
being held up to settle down? (I was thinking I'd have to do the
opposite - to try to prop up the rest of the house around the chimney
to prevent it sinking further.)

This doesn't sound like it's really a major fix - am I wrong? What
happens when the joists are decoupled from the chimney and that part of
the house suddenly drops 1-2 inches? Or is this done as a slow process
with jacks (similar to straightening a sagging main beam, but in
reverse)?

And if this is really the problem (and it makes sense to me, based on
what I'm seeing), is it really going to matter if I just leave it alone
for a while? It's to the point where I'm sure the previous owners must
have noticed it and contemplated doing something about it at some
point, but they obviously didn't. Is it purely a look-and-feel issue
then?

wrote:

Yep - chimney supporting the joists is the problem (although I heard
that frost heave caused the chimney to lift - but same effect) and
de-coupling the joists from the chimney and adding any necessary double
joists and/or headers is the solution.

Interesting. So the basic problem is not that part of the house is
falling down, but that the other part of the house is being forced to
stay *up*? And the solution is to basically just let the part that's
being held up to settle down? (I was thinking I'd have to do the
opposite - to try to prop up the rest of the house around the chimney
to prevent it sinking further.)

This doesn't sound like it's really a major fix - am I wrong? What
happens when the joists are decoupled from the chimney and that part of
the house suddenly drops 1-2 inches? Or is this done as a slow process
with jacks (similar to straightening a sagging main beam, but in
reverse)?

And if this is really the problem (and it makes sense to me, based on
what I'm seeing), is it really going to matter if I just leave it alone
for a while? It's to the point where I'm sure the previous owners must
have noticed it and contemplated doing something about it at some
point, but they obviously didn't. Is it purely a look-and-feel issue
then?

Assuming you empty the room of furniture - just remove the flooring
around the chimney to see how the joists are connected to it.

All depends on what you find whether you need to support from below - I
didn't have to when I flattened a floor around a chimney - I just cut
away any connected wood and made sure it ended up being framed properly
as one would for a floor opening:

http://www.hometips.com/images/hyhw/structure/116.gif

It still won't perfectly flatten out after the framing has been like
this for many years, but it will be an esthetic improvement - which is
the only reason I did this in a house I was remodeling for resale.

Or just leave it for a while like I did on my other property - that
"while" has been about 28 years so far!