Hi

I have a sump pump in a well beneath my floor. Works great and keeps
the basement dry. However I fear that we may get water at the same time
we have a power outage. So I've been looking at battery back-up units.
Most kits that I've found in stores around here have a 12 volt pump
that attaches to the outlet of the existing electric pump. It kicks in
if the water rises in the well above the cut-in level of the AC float.
This DC pump is powered by a deep-cycle battery (not included) that is
kept charged by trickle charger (included).

The kits include the 12 volt pump, a charger, a plastic box to hold the
battery, and a few fittings. The cost here in Canada is between $250
and $380 (I think the more expensive ones have a fancier charging unit
and perhaps the pump delivers more gallons per minute. Isn't that a bit
expensive for what you get? Especially as there is no battery included?

I'm wondering if I could purchase the pump and a trickle charger
separately for considerably less. Someone suggested a marine bilge
pump. Do these pump the volume of the sump pumps - about 20-25 gpm? Is
the trickle charger sold in the kits any different/better than a cheap
trickle charger sold at any hardware/automotive store? The ones in the
kit don't look to be all that elaborate. Also, are all deep-cycle
batteries equal? If they are left on charge continually, will they hold
a full charge for a long time (years)? How often would they have to be
replaced?

Any suggestions or assistance would be appreciated.

Keith

batery will need replaced every 2 to 3 years no matter what you do. by
4 years the batterys capacity will be small., that is run time will get
shorter and shorter.

there are also water powered back up sump pumps if your on city
water.....

batery will need replaced every 2 to 3 years no matter what you do. by
4 years the batterys capacity will be small., that is run time will get
shorter and shorter.

there are also water powered back up sump pumps if your on city
water.....

I saw one of those advertised a long time ago. Do you know how good they
work?

wrote in message
ups.com...
there are also water powered back up sump pumps if your on city
water.....

Keith,

I've gone through two battery-back up systems using battery-powered DC
motors in this house since 1990. I've really never been happy with
their performance, and the deep-cycle marine batteries never seem to
last as long as they should.

Although I know the initial inductive kick of the typical AC sump pump
pulls quite a bit of current, it seems to me the best alternative would
be analagous to a computer UPS. Simply plug the normal sump pump into
the UPS-like device, and once there's a AC power outage, the device's
inverter takes over and feeds the pump with 115VAC.

Personally, I've always thought such a device would be a big seller
throughout the country, but I've never seen such a product. Most
likely, it's due to the overall cost because of the initial turn-on
current requirement, as well as the continuous current use, of most sump
pumps.

Nevertheless, I still think it's a viable idea, and if someone could
come up with an effective design and manufacture it in China, perhaps it
could be brought to market for a reasonable price.

"Don Allen" wrote in message
. com...
Keith,

I've gone through two battery-back up systems using battery-powered DC
motors in this house since 1990. I've really never been happy with
their performance, and the deep-cycle marine batteries never seem to
last as long as they should.

Although I know the initial inductive kick of the typical AC sump pump
pulls quite a bit of current, it seems to me the best alternative would
be analagous to a computer UPS. Simply plug the normal sump pump into
the UPS-like device, and once there's a AC power outage, the device's
inverter takes over and feeds the pump with 115VAC.

Personally, I've always thought such a device would be a big seller
throughout the country, but I've never seen such a product. Most
likely, it's due to the overall cost because of the initial turn-on
current requirement, as well as the continuous current use, of most sump
pumps.

Nevertheless, I still think it's a viable idea, and if someone could
come up with an effective design and manufacture it in China, perhaps it
could be brought to market for a reasonable price.

Do you know how big the UPS would have to be to start a sump pump? Besides,
what is your back up if the pump simply breaks?
Rotten idea.

"Keith" #ca wrote in message
...
Hi

I have a sump pump in a well beneath my floor. Works great and keeps the
basement dry. However I fear that we may get water at the same time we
have a power outage. So I've been looking at battery back-up units. Most
kits that I've found in stores around here have a 12 volt pump that
attaches to the outlet of the existing electric pump. It kicks in if the
water rises in the well above the cut-in level of the AC float. This DC
pump is powered by a deep-cycle battery (not included) that is kept
charged by trickle charger (included).

The kits include the 12 volt pump, a charger, a plastic box to hold the
battery, and a few fittings. The cost here in Canada is between $250 and
$380 (I think the more expensive ones have a fancier charging unit and
perhaps the pump delivers more gallons per minute. Isn't that a bit
expensive for what you get? Especially as there is no battery included?

I'm wondering if I could purchase the pump and a trickle charger
separately for considerably less. Someone suggested a marine bilge pump.
Do these pump the volume of the sump pumps - about 20-25 gpm? Is the
trickle charger sold in the kits any different/better than a cheap trickle
charger sold at any hardware/automotive store? The ones in the kit don't
look to be all that elaborate. Also, are all deep-cycle batteries equal?
If they are left on charge continually, will they hold a full charge for a
long time (years)? How often would they have to be replaced?

If the components are cheaper, and the pump has adequate capacity (I don't
picture bilge pumps handling a 10' head, but then I don't know much about
bilge pumps...) then it ought to work. All you would lose would be the
buzzer and lights that tell you what is going on.

"batery will need replaced every 2 to 3 years no matter what you do. by

4 years the batterys capacity will be small., that is run time will get

shorter and shorter. "

And why is that? Even a car battery lasts 5-7 years. Lead/acid
batteries will last a long time if kept properly charged. The killer
is the number of times they are discharged. Even worse is to discharge
them and leave them that way for an extended period. If used for
emergency stanby, a battery will last a very long time. Just ask the
phone company. They have huge banks sitting there to power the phone
system during a power failure.

"Keith" #ca wrote in message
...
Hi

I have a sump pump in a well beneath my floor. Works great and keeps the
basement dry. However I fear that we may get water at the same time we
have a power outage. So I've been looking at battery back-up units. Most
kits that I've found in stores around here have a 12 volt pump that
attaches to the outlet of the existing electric pump. It kicks in if the
water rises in the well above the cut-in level of the AC float. This DC
pump is powered by a deep-cycle battery (not included) that is kept
charged by trickle charger (included).

The kits include the 12 volt pump, a charger, a plastic box to hold the
battery, and a few fittings. The cost here in Canada is between $250 and
$380 (I think the more expensive ones have a fancier charging unit and
perhaps the pump delivers more gallons per minute. Isn't that a bit
expensive for what you get? Especially as there is no battery included?

I'm wondering if I could purchase the pump and a trickle charger
separately for considerably less. Someone suggested a marine bilge pump.
Do these pump the volume of the sump pumps - about 20-25 gpm? Is the
trickle charger sold in the kits any different/better than a cheap trickle
charger sold at any hardware/automotive store? The ones in the kit don't
look to be all that elaborate. Also, are all deep-cycle batteries equal?
If they are left on charge continually, will they hold a full charge for a
long time (years)? How often would they have to be replaced?

Any suggestions or assistance would be appreciated.

Keith


Battery backups have a limited run time before the battery dies. I don't see
the point. For the price, you mentioned, you can buy a small genset and run
an extension cord.
As mentioned before, if you have city water, a water operated backup works
fine.

wrote:
batery will need replaced every 2 to 3 years no matter what you do. by
4 years the batterys capacity will be small., that is run time will get
shorter and shorter.

there are also water powered back up sump pumps if your on city
water.....

Unfortunately I'm on a well so loose my water pressure when power is cut
to the pump.

Keith

wrote:
"batery will need replaced every 2 to 3 years no matter what you do. by

4 years the batterys capacity will be small., that is run time will get

shorter and shorter. "

And why is that? Even a car battery lasts 5-7 years. Lead/acid
batteries will last a long time if kept properly charged. The killer
is the number of times they are discharged. Even worse is to discharge
them and leave them that way for an extended period. If used for
emergency stanby, a battery will last a very long time. Just ask the
phone company. They have huge banks sitting there to power the phone
system during a power failure.

From full charge to discharge would the pump immediately begin to slow
down (less gpm) or would it maintain its full capacity to pump until the
battery power got to a certain level? What I mean is, if the battery
was 1/2 discharged, would the pump only pump 1/2 the volume of water?

Sorry of these seem like pretty basic questions, unfortunately
electricity is not one of my strong points.

Keith

Don Allen wrote:
Keith,

I've gone through two battery-back up systems using battery-powered DC
motors in this house since 1990. I've really never been happy with
their performance, and the deep-cycle marine batteries never seem to
last as long as they should.

Although I know the initial inductive kick of the typical AC sump pump
pulls quite a bit of current, it seems to me the best alternative would
be analagous to a computer UPS. Simply plug the normal sump pump into
the UPS-like device, and once there's a AC power outage, the device's
inverter takes over and feeds the pump with 115VAC.

Personally, I've always thought such a device would be a big seller
throughout the country, but I've never seen such a product. Most
likely, it's due to the overall cost because of the initial turn-on
current requirement, as well as the continuous current use, of most sump
pumps.

Nevertheless, I still think it's a viable idea, and if someone could
come up with an effective design and manufacture it in China, perhaps it
could be brought to market for a reasonable price.
I thought about a UPS but in searching on the 'net the consensus is that
no reasonably-priced UPS could handle it. The pump would draw too
much and the UPS would be discharged in minutes. From what I've been
able to find on line, any UPS able to sustain the power draw for a
reasonable period of time would cost thousands of $$$. Apparently 12
Volt pumps are much more efficient. The other advantage is that it
would be a backup not only for a power outage but in the case of the
main pump failure as well.

Thanks for replying.

Keith

www.basepump.com or www.Zoeller.com have city water powered backups that
outperform even some AC pumps. Battery are a joke, research how much and
for how long they pump on a new and old battery and the cost of charging
and battery replacement. Best is a gen or a gasoline powered pump if you
have a well and flood

calhoun wrote:
"Keith" #ca wrote in message
...

Hi

I have a sump pump in a well beneath my floor. Works great and keeps the
basement dry. However I fear that we may get water at the same time we
have a power outage. So I've been looking at battery back-up units. Most
kits that I've found in stores around here have a 12 volt pump that
attaches to the outlet of the existing electric pump. It kicks in if the
water rises in the well above the cut-in level of the AC float. This DC
pump is powered by a deep-cycle battery (not included) that is kept
charged by trickle charger (included).

The kits include the 12 volt pump, a charger, a plastic box to hold the
battery, and a few fittings. The cost here in Canada is between $250 and
$380 (I think the more expensive ones have a fancier charging unit and
perhaps the pump delivers more gallons per minute. Isn't that a bit
expensive for what you get? Especially as there is no battery included?

I'm wondering if I could purchase the pump and a trickle charger
separately for considerably less. Someone suggested a marine bilge pump.
Do these pump the volume of the sump pumps - about 20-25 gpm? Is the
trickle charger sold in the kits any different/better than a cheap trickle
charger sold at any hardware/automotive store? The ones in the kit don't
look to be all that elaborate. Also, are all deep-cycle batteries equal?
If they are left on charge continually, will they hold a full charge for a
long time (years)? How often would they have to be replaced?

Any suggestions or assistance would be appreciated.

Keith



Battery backups have a limited run time before the battery dies. I don't see
the point. For the price, you mentioned, you can buy a small genset and run
an extension cord.
As mentioned before, if you have city water, a water operated backup works
fine.


I have a old 1750 watt generator. My concern is that we would loose
power (a rarity here but still about once per year for a few hours on
average)or the main pump failed in the middle of the night or while we
were away from the house. If it happened that the sump was getting
water at the time, the sump would overflow, probably causing major
problems under the sub floor in my basement. I'm hoping a
battery-powered system would be able to take over until I would be able
to get the generator hooked up. They advertise these systems can empty
the average sump well about 1000 times on a single charge at about 20-25
gmp. That should be plenty enough to give me time to make other
arrangements.

I just thought that the cost at around $300 CDN or more seemed excessive
for what you get - a 12 volt pump, a charger, a plastic box (for the
battery) and a few connections. Are 12 volt pumps really that
expensive? I just thought maybe I could save a bit by buying the
components separately. Maybe not. Around here I can only find these
pumps sold in kits.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Keith

You car batterys capacity when its brand new is oversized for its job,
so you cant see its decreasing capacity. but decrease it does slowly
frm the day its manufactured.

battery backups for phone companies used HUGE BANKS of very low
capacity but long lived batteries. with solid lead plates holding
rosettes, would up thin solid lead. I have seen those batteries. last
30 years or more, but a big group would of been needed to start your
car. because heir capacity is so low...

mow take some marine batteries put them on a UPS. 12 volts in 120 out.
sounds great. but check the UPS manufacturers, the batteries used in
these last for just a few years at most. The UPS I use on my tv
satellite system is not quite 3 years old, run everything for a hour
and a half when new, now perhaps 20 minutes... battery is worn out..
costs nearly as much as a like sized brand new UPS I might add there
are tons of FREE UPS available nationwwide, all with bad batteries...

converting the 12 volts to 120 to run whatever isnt efficent, you lose
over 20% in the conversion process, transistor losses etc.

The BEST choice but pricey is a standby generator system. these monitor
the power line and any time theres a minute outage, the generator
starts, and switches over important loads in the home, sump pump,
fridge, furnace, etc and some lights. they use natural gas or propane
for fuel. easily cost 5 grand and up, I would like one some day.

the next best choice is a stand alone generator, 300 bucks and up, to
ru run one critical load at a time. I have 2 of these, a few thousand
watts, for real emergencies.

noisey, need gasoline, its not perfect but thy work. in this choice you
must be home to run it.

of course the best sump pump choice is fuel free. if your sump happens
to be higher than a low spot on your property, install a underground
pipe as a overflow. its always there and requires no real work after
the initial install.

m Ransley wrote:
www.basepump.com or www.Zoeller.com have city water powered backups that
outperform even some AC pumps. Battery are a joke, research how much and
for how long they pump on a new and old battery and the cost of charging
and battery replacement. Best is a gen or a gasoline powered pump if you
have a well and flood

Ref my other posts. I'm not on city water so a power outage would knock
out my well pump and therefore the water pressure needed to power the
auxilliary pump. I have a generator but how would I know there is a
problem before I can hook it up. What if I'm sleeping or away when the
power goes out or if the main pump gives up the ghost? I need something
to fill the gap until I get my generator running.

Keith

In article ,
says...
I saw one of those advertised a long time ago. Do you know how good they
work?

wrote in message
ups.com...
there are also water powered back up sump pumps if your on city
water.....

These are no longer allowed in many places. My city allows them but the
next one over does not. The concern is that it is possible (albeit
unlikely) that the water from the sump could mix with, and contaminate,
the house water supply. Clearly the systems are designed to prevent this
but according to my plumber, there are documented cases of hardware
failures leading to this situation.

If you need a battery backup, invest in a good one, and replace the
battery every two years. Cheap insurance.

Marc

arrangements.

I just thought that the cost at around $300 CDN or more seemed excessive
for what you get - a 12 volt pump, a charger, a plastic box (for the
battery) and a few connections. Are 12 volt pumps really that
expensive? I just thought maybe I could save a bit by buying the
components separately. Maybe not. Around here I can only find these
pumps sold in kits.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Keith

the 300 bucks is a bargain for a 12 volt pump system but remember every
few years you will need a new battery, or find your pump time shrinks
from hours to minutes. it will pump about the same volume to battery
exhaustion.

when looking at pump capacity look at head, how high it has to pump. if
you go this way dont feed the backup pump to the same drain line as the
primary pump.

if the primary pumps check valve fails, you will folld anyway.

incidently a short term flood of the underside of your basement floor
isnt a disaster. its when the water floods your basement and ruins your
stuff that matters

On 27 Jan 2006 17:37:08 -0800, "
wrote:

batery will need replaced every 2 to 3 years no matter what you do. by
4 years the batterys capacity will be small., that is run time will get
shorter and shorter.

there are also water powered back up sump pumps if your on city
water.....

I recently talked to someone that has city water, and it quits during
a power failure.

if the amount of water you get can be handled by a smaller pump like
the general pourpose pump sold at harbor freight that pulls about 200
Watts, a 750 Watt inverter will START and run these pumps. Yes the
pull during start is a lot higher than at run and you need an inverter
that can work through the start. I keep a car battery on a trickle
charger , and a 750 Watt inverter and one of these pumps around for
emergencies... or you can connect the inverter to your car ,,,, and
have a small generator for longer term outages...

Yes I would have to be here, it is not automatic...

Mark

wrote:

the 300 bucks is a bargain for a 12 volt pump system but remember every
few years you will need a new battery, or find your pump time shrinks
from hours to minutes. it will pump about the same volume to battery
exhaustion.

How lucky can I get! I was in to Canadian Tire (CDN automotive/hardware
chain) and they had a 12 volt backup kit on sale (not advertised- reg
$249.95 for $150)! Old stock I think. Says it pumps up to 1200 gph. I
bought it and a deep cycle battery. Have it on the charger now. I'll
put it in next weekend.
when looking at pump capacity look at head, how high it has to pump. if
you go this way dont feed the backup pump to the same drain line as the
primary pump.
I only have to pump about 3 ft up to reach a drain. I'm thinking that
should near maximize its pumping volume capacity.

if the primary pumps check valve fails, you will folld anyway.

incidently a short term flood of the underside of your basement floor
isnt a disaster. its when the water floods your basement and ruins your
stuff that matters

Thanks for your help.

Keith