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Craig Robison
 
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Default Water Heater Install Question

I have a perfectly good 40 gallon Natural Gas water heater (in the attic) it
sometimes proved to be insufficient with company in town so I did what you
should not do and cranked up the temp to about 145-150 and it seemed to help
although we still ran out during times of heavy use. Now we have a kid on
the way, water is SCALDING HOT and we are going to need more of it anyway.
Long story short I found that it was cheaper to add a second 40 gallon water
heater (plenty of room) than to replace the existing one (I hated the idea
of removing a good water heater, it is only 5 years old). Also, I went
electric instead of gas, mostly because I did not want to cut a hole in the
roof for the vent AND the electric model was cheaper AND I just happened to
have a no-longer-used 10 gauge wire running right to it. Natural gas prices
are sky-rocketing but I still think that a gas water heater is cheaper to
operate than an electric model SO, I plumbed them in series rather than
parallel. That is to say the hot water leaves the gas water heater and goes
into the electric water heater then into the house. In this manner I figure
that the gas heater is still doing most of the heating and the electric one
is more like a storage tank. I have set them both to 125 degrees, the
minimum temperature that the dishwasher manual recommends (to do this I
filled a bucket full from the T&P valve and took the temp right there). My
question, is there anything wrong with having the water flow from one to the
other in this manner? I cannot see why the electric water heater cares what
temperature the inlet water is. For what it is worth the guy at Home Depot
thought it was brilliant, but he aint a plumber, and neither am I...
Any Thoughts?

Craig


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Tony Hwang
 
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Default Water Heater Install Question

Craig Robison wrote:
I have a perfectly good 40 gallon Natural Gas water heater (in the attic) it
sometimes proved to be insufficient with company in town so I did what you
should not do and cranked up the temp to about 145-150 and it seemed to help
although we still ran out during times of heavy use. Now we have a kid on
the way, water is SCALDING HOT and we are going to need more of it anyway.
Long story short I found that it was cheaper to add a second 40 gallon water
heater (plenty of room) than to replace the existing one (I hated the idea
of removing a good water heater, it is only 5 years old). Also, I went
electric instead of gas, mostly because I did not want to cut a hole in the
roof for the vent AND the electric model was cheaper AND I just happened to
have a no-longer-used 10 gauge wire running right to it. Natural gas prices
are sky-rocketing but I still think that a gas water heater is cheaper to
operate than an electric model SO, I plumbed them in series rather than
parallel. That is to say the hot water leaves the gas water heater and goes
into the electric water heater then into the house. In this manner I figure
that the gas heater is still doing most of the heating and the electric one
is more like a storage tank. I have set them both to 125 degrees, the
minimum temperature that the dishwasher manual recommends (to do this I
filled a bucket full from the T&P valve and took the temp right there). My
question, is there anything wrong with having the water flow from one to the
other in this manner? I cannot see why the electric water heater cares what
temperature the inlet water is. For what it is worth the guy at Home Depot
thought it was brilliant, but he aint a plumber, and neither am I...
Any Thoughts?

Craig


Hi,
I always had two gas heater in series. But have no experience with
gas-electric combo. I'd think they'll have different recovery rate.
Tony
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Craig Robison
 
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Default Water Heater Install Question


"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news:OfhCf.453788$ki.271597@pd7tw2no...
Craig Robison wrote:
I have a perfectly good 40 gallon Natural Gas water heater (in the attic)
it sometimes proved to be insufficient with company in town so I did what
you should not do and cranked up the temp to about 145-150 and it seemed
to help although we still ran out during times of heavy use. Now we have
a kid on the way, water is SCALDING HOT and we are going to need more of
it anyway. Long story short I found that it was cheaper to add a second
40 gallon water heater (plenty of room) than to replace the existing one
(I hated the idea of removing a good water heater, it is only 5 years
old). Also, I went electric instead of gas, mostly because I did not
want to cut a hole in the roof for the vent AND the electric model was
cheaper AND I just happened to have a no-longer-used 10 gauge wire
running right to it. Natural gas prices are sky-rocketing but I still
think that a gas water heater is cheaper to operate than an electric
model SO, I plumbed them in series rather than parallel. That is to say
the hot water leaves the gas water heater and goes into the electric
water heater then into the house. In this manner I figure that the gas
heater is still doing most of the heating and the electric one is more
like a storage tank. I have set them both to 125 degrees, the minimum
temperature that the dishwasher manual recommends (to do this I filled a
bucket full from the T&P valve and took the temp right there). My
question, is there anything wrong with having the water flow from one to
the other in this manner? I cannot see why the electric water heater
cares what temperature the inlet water is. For what it is worth the guy
at Home Depot thought it was brilliant, but he aint a plumber, and
neither am I...
Any Thoughts?

Craig


Hi,
I always had two gas heater in series. But have no experience with
gas-electric combo. I'd think they'll have different recovery rate.
Tony


I agree, I suspect that the 3800 watt, single element, el-cheapo electric
water heater recovers pretty slow. Compared to the 30K BTU NG heater...
another reason I put them in series.
Craig


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buffalobill
 
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Default Water Heater Install Question

you will next wind up with a 75 gallon tank if you can get it thru your
doorways like ours we run at 150F, oops you're in the attic.
recheck your 40 gallon gas hot water tank for replacement of the DIP
TUBE if you have rapid temperature drop on the output of your gas hot
water tank.
i would use a drain pan and drain pipe under each tank with a battery
water alarm [$10 home depot] in each pan.

see also for dip tube and other repairs:
http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...hot-water.html

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buffalobill
 
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Energy-Efficient Water Heating
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/.../mytopic=13030



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Bob
 
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Default Water Heater Install Question

The only time you should pipe two water heaters in parallel, is when they
are exactly the same capacity and flow rate. I think you'll find that the
electric water heater is going to cost you a lot more to operate. I also
think that if you turn off the gas supply to the gas water heater, you're
going to be running out of hot water.
Water heaters are rated by their 'recovery rate', or how fast they can raise
the temperature of the water. This is typically a rise of 90 degrees. The
recovery rate of an electric water heater depends on the wattage of the
heating elements. A typical electric water heater with two 4500-watt heating
elements takes about two hours to heat 40 gallons of water. A typical 40
gallon gas water heater takes about one hour to heat 41 gallons of water.


"Craig Robison" wrote in message
. ..
I have a perfectly good 40 gallon Natural Gas water heater (in the attic)

it
sometimes proved to be insufficient with company in town so I did what you
should not do and cranked up the temp to about 145-150 and it seemed to

help
although we still ran out during times of heavy use. Now we have a kid on
the way, water is SCALDING HOT and we are going to need more of it

anyway.
Long story short I found that it was cheaper to add a second 40 gallon

water
heater (plenty of room) than to replace the existing one (I hated the idea
of removing a good water heater, it is only 5 years old). Also, I went
electric instead of gas, mostly because I did not want to cut a hole in

the
roof for the vent AND the electric model was cheaper AND I just happened

to
have a no-longer-used 10 gauge wire running right to it. Natural gas

prices
are sky-rocketing but I still think that a gas water heater is cheaper to
operate than an electric model SO, I plumbed them in series rather than
parallel. That is to say the hot water leaves the gas water heater and

goes
into the electric water heater then into the house. In this manner I

figure
that the gas heater is still doing most of the heating and the electric

one
is more like a storage tank. I have set them both to 125 degrees, the
minimum temperature that the dishwasher manual recommends (to do this I
filled a bucket full from the T&P valve and took the temp right there).

My
question, is there anything wrong with having the water flow from one to

the
other in this manner? I cannot see why the electric water heater cares

what
temperature the inlet water is. For what it is worth the guy at Home

Depot
thought it was brilliant, but he aint a plumber, and neither am I...
Any Thoughts?

Craig




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Joseph Meehan
 
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Default Water Heater Install Question

Craig Robison wrote:
I have a perfectly good 40 gallon Natural Gas water heater (in the
attic) .. I found that it
was cheaper to add a second 40 gallon water heater (plenty of room)
than to replace the existing one .. I plumbed them in
series rather than parallel. ...
I have set them both to 125 degrees, the minimum temperature
that the dishwasher manual recommends .. My question,
is there anything wrong with having the water flow from one to the
other in this manner? ..
Any Thoughts?

Craig


You did hook it up the right way. I might have put the temp of the gas
a little higher than the electric to avoid having the electric kick in under
normal conditions. Putting then in parallel would have been wrong.

I suggest that when the time comes that you are ready to address this
problem, that you consider a more conventional solution. In the long run a
single larger high recovery heater is going to cost you less and require
less maintenance than your current setup.
--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit


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" You did hook it up the right way. I might have put the temp of the
gas
a little higher than the electric to avoid having the electric kick in
under
normal conditions. Putting then in parallel would have been wrong.

I suggest that when the time comes that you are ready to address
this
problem, that you consider a more conventional solution. In the long
run a
single larger high recovery heater is going to cost you less and
require
less maintenance than your current setup.
--
Joseph Meehan "


I second that advice. Two seperate small water heaters are going to
have considerably more heat loss that one larger unit, leading to
higher operating costs. How much did you manage to save by going with
a second smaller unit, instead of just buying a bigger one and selling
the old one? You'd be surprised what you can sell on Ebay!

Also, I'd measure the 125 degree temp at the point of delivery to the
dishwasher and set the heater temp based on that, not right at the
heater.

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Bob
 
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Default Water Heater Install Question

I third that advice. In addition, when cold water enters a water heater,
humidity in the air can condense on the outside of the tank, and cause it to
rust. Water heaters that are too small for the household's needs, will have
to be refilled more frequently, and this can cause excessive condensation.

wrote in message
oups.com...
" You did hook it up the right way. I might have put the temp of the
gas
a little higher than the electric to avoid having the electric kick in
under
normal conditions. Putting then in parallel would have been wrong.

I suggest that when the time comes that you are ready to address
this
problem, that you consider a more conventional solution. In the long
run a
single larger high recovery heater is going to cost you less and
require
less maintenance than your current setup.
--
Joseph Meehan "


I second that advice. Two seperate small water heaters are going to
have considerably more heat loss that one larger unit, leading to
higher operating costs. How much did you manage to save by going with
a second smaller unit, instead of just buying a bigger one and selling
the old one? You'd be surprised what you can sell on Ebay!

Also, I'd measure the 125 degree temp at the point of delivery to the
dishwasher and set the heater temp based on that, not right at the
heater.



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Default Water Heater Install Question

I would have put in an on demand whole house hot water heater.



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He did a GOOD THING!

If capacity is still a issue up the temp of the gas tank back to 150
degrees, then install a tempering valve

Set the valve to 125 or whatever you want. It limits the maximum
temperature going out to faucets to what its set at. So no one can get
scalded.

I nearly installed a tempering valve on my old tank, I was going to
take the dishwashewr water before the valve so dishwasher would get 150
degree water, and everything else 125....

About that time my tank failed so I went with a 60 gallon pro high BTU
tank. That fixed our capacity issues, but cost a fortune and only had a
6 year warranty

Sadly standby losses with 2 tanks will DOUBLE, If I were you I would
add lots of insulation to both!

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Bob
 
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On the bright side, the last time I asked Bradford White, a 6 year and 10
year warranty were made exactly the same. The increased price difference
just reflects the money it costs BW for the extra 4 year replacements. The
only time it pays, is if your water heater breaks within that 4 year period.

wrote in message
oups.com...
He did a GOOD THING!

If capacity is still a issue up the temp of the gas tank back to 150
degrees, then install a tempering valve

Set the valve to 125 or whatever you want. It limits the maximum
temperature going out to faucets to what its set at. So no one can get
scalded.

I nearly installed a tempering valve on my old tank, I was going to
take the dishwashewr water before the valve so dishwasher would get 150
degree water, and everything else 125....

About that time my tank failed so I went with a 60 gallon pro high BTU
tank. That fixed our capacity issues, but cost a fortune and only had a
6 year warranty

Sadly standby losses with 2 tanks will DOUBLE, If I were you I would
add lots of insulation to both!



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Bob
 
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Default Water Heater Install Question

He already greatly increased his energy use by installing an electric water
heater. If he increases it to 150 degrees, it might make the electric water
heater run less, so he could be saving money.

"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
. ..
wrote:
He did a GOOD THING!

If capacity is still a issue up the temp of the gas tank back to 150
degrees, then install a tempering valve ..


That will increase energy use and decrease the life of the heater.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit




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Craig Robison
 
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Default Water Heater Install Question

wrote in message
oups.com...
" You did hook it up the right way. I might have put the temp of the
gas
a little higher than the electric to avoid having the electric kick in
under
normal conditions. Putting then in parallel would have been wrong.

I suggest that when the time comes that you are ready to address
this
problem, that you consider a more conventional solution. In the long
run a
single larger high recovery heater is going to cost you less and
require
less maintenance than your current setup.
--
Joseph Meehan "


I second that advice. Two seperate small water heaters are going to
have considerably more heat loss that one larger unit, leading to
higher operating costs. How much did you manage to save by going with
a second smaller unit, instead of just buying a bigger one and selling
the old one? You'd be surprised what you can sell on Ebay!

Also, I'd measure the 125 degree temp at the point of delivery to the
dishwasher and set the heater temp based on that, not right at the
heater.


The electric water heater was $179. A 60 Gallon gas heater was over $400.
So I figure I saved at least $220. As far as eBay goes, I looked, I MIGHT
have grabbed $50-$75 for the old one. The question then is how long will it
take me to run $220 of electricity through the electric water heater? I'm
guessing a while, and, a 60 Gallon gas heater would have had an increased
operating cost over the 40 gallon I have now. I suppose if you really
wanted to crunch some numbers you might come up with the most cost effective
long-run solution.
Next thought;
Would going from 40 to 60 and then dropping the temp from 150 to 125 really
have increased my capacity that much? It would be 20 more gallons at a
lower temp? Again I suppose you would have to run some numbers..

Craig




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Joseph Meehan
 
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Bob wrote:
He already greatly increased his energy use by installing an electric
water heater. If he increases it to 150 degrees, it might make the
electric water heater run less, so he could be saving money.


I considered that. Since I don't know the cost per therm of each source
I stuck with energy use not cost. You are right however and that should be
considered as well. I hinted at that with my initial comment "I might have
put the temp of the gas a little higher than the electric to avoid having
the electric kick in under normal conditions."


"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
. ..
wrote:
He did a GOOD THING!

If capacity is still a issue up the temp of the gas tank back to
150 degrees, then install a tempering valve ..


That will increase energy use and decrease the life of the
heater.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit


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Joseph Meehan
 
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Craig Robison wrote:
....

The electric water heater was $179. A 60 Gallon gas heater was over
$400. So I figure I saved at least $220. As far as eBay goes, I
looked, I MIGHT have grabbed $50-$75 for the old one. The question
then is how long will it take me to run $220 of electricity through
the electric water heater? I'm guessing a while, and, a 60 Gallon
gas heater would have had an increased operating cost over the 40
gallon I have now. I suppose if you really wanted to crunch some
numbers you might come up with the most cost effective long-run
solution.


That would depend on your local cost structure. I would guess that in
some situations you would recover the investment cost quicker than you
think. In others it might not be worth it.

Next thought;
Would going from 40 to 60 and then dropping the temp from 150 to 125
really have increased my capacity that much? It would be 20 more
gallons at a lower temp? Again I suppose you would have to run some
numbers..


You also need to consider the recovery rate. Not all water heaters can
re-heat water at the same speed. A high recovery 40 may be enough if your
current model does not have a high recovery rate. I would also add that
having one 60 gallon heater will result in far less standby losses than two
40's.



Craig


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit


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" Would going from 40 to 60 and then dropping the temp from 150 to 125
really have increased my capacity that much? It would be 20 more
gallons at a lower temp? Again I suppose you would have to run some
numbers.. "


I did run some numbers. Assuming the incoming cold water is 50
degrees, mixing 150 with it 3:1 gives you the 125 temp. So, a 40
gallon tank of 150 water could be mixed with 13.3 gallons of 50 degree
water to yield 53.3 gallons of 125 water.

So, going to the 60 gives you 60 gallons at 125, vs 53.3 by the mixing
approach. The other factor to consider is the heat loss through the
tank is also proportional to the temp difference. Assuming an ambient
of 55 degrees, with water at 125, you have a delta of 70 deg. At 150,
the delta is now 95, an increase of 36%. So, your gonna lose 35% more
energy through the tank with the higher temp. I think these two
together mean that unless there is some other issue, like space, the
bigger tank is going to be the better solution.

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10.


I would have put in an on demand whole house hot water heater.

I priced them today at Lowes.

The warranty is 10 years, and the price for the larger unit a $1000.00

This is like buying a hybrid car to save $ on gas.

The payback period is forever since the purchase price for both the on
demand tank, and hybrid car is way too much.

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Bob
 
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I don't know of any place where electric is cheaper than natural gas.

"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
. ..
Bob wrote:
He already greatly increased his energy use by installing an electric
water heater. If he increases it to 150 degrees, it might make the
electric water heater run less, so he could be saving money.


I considered that. Since I don't know the cost per therm of each

source
I stuck with energy use not cost. You are right however and that should

be
considered as well. I hinted at that with my initial comment "I might

have
put the temp of the gas a little higher than the electric to avoid having
the electric kick in under normal conditions."


"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
. ..
wrote:
He did a GOOD THING!

If capacity is still a issue up the temp of the gas tank back to
150 degrees, then install a tempering valve ..

That will increase energy use and decrease the life of the
heater.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit






  #21   Report Post  
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Joseph Meehan
 
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Default Water Heater Install Question

Craig Robison wrote:
I have a perfectly good 40 gallon Natural Gas water heater (in the
attic) it sometimes proved to be insufficient with company in town so
I did what you should not do and cranked up the temp to about 145-150
and it seemed to help although we still ran out during times of heavy
use. Now we have a kid on the way, water is SCALDING HOT and we are
going to need more of it anyway. Long story short I found that it
was cheaper to add a second 40 gallon water heater (plenty of room)
than to replace the existing one (I hated the idea of removing a good
water heater, it is only 5 years old). Also, I went electric instead
of gas, mostly because I did not want to cut a hole in the roof for
the vent AND the electric model was cheaper AND I just happened to
have a no-longer-used 10 gauge wire running right to it. Natural gas
prices are sky-rocketing but I still think that a gas water heater is
cheaper to operate than an electric model SO, I plumbed them in
series rather than parallel. That is to say the hot water leaves the
gas water heater and goes into the electric water heater then into
the house. In this manner I figure that the gas heater is still
doing most of the heating and the electric one is more like a storage
tank. I have set them both to 125 degrees, the minimum temperature
that the dishwasher manual recommends (to do this I filled a bucket
full from the T&P valve and took the temp right there). My question,
is there anything wrong with having the water flow from one to the
other in this manner? I cannot see why the electric water heater
cares what temperature the inlet water is. For what it is worth the
guy at Home Depot thought it was brilliant, but he aint a plumber,
and neither am I... Any Thoughts?

Craig


I got to thinking. Since the only time you seem to have a problem is
when you have company from out of town, it may be better to have put the
electric first so most of the time you can have it turned off and you will
not use any electricity and will not have any standby losses (heat loss from
the tank). Then when expecting company you can crank up the electric unit.
You might even set it up to heat just a little to temper the water rather
than heat it so the gas unit can do the real work.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit


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in series that wouldnt work although he could do it by adding some
valves.

although I would leave the tank full of non moving water for a extended
time.

the best thing he can do is monitor his electric bill if it spikes then
try something else

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ooops meant to say dont leave tank full of non moving water for
extended time, baceteria might grow and become a health hazard

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Bob
 
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Sure it would work. Probably not worth the effort, but it would work, and
would even bring the water up to attic temperature before going into the gas
water heater.

wrote in message
oups.com...
in series that wouldnt work although he could do it by adding some
valves.

although I would leave the tank full of non moving water for a extended
time.

the best thing he can do is monitor his electric bill if it spikes then
try something else



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Bob
 
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Not to mention, during long periods of inactivity, hydrogen sulfide gas can
build up inside a water heater. If exposed to an open flame, this gas can
cause an explosion.



wrote in message
oups.com...
ooops meant to say dont leave tank full of non moving water for
extended time, baceteria might grow and become a health hazard





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With the electric tank LAST in series, only turning on the electric
tank during periods of peak use will not work, since the water after
being heated by the gas tank would cool and never be heated in the
electric last tank. espically is they didnt use hot water for a couple
days

if his electric bills spike he could add some valves, during normal use
water would enter electric tank first, and not be heated, going to gas
tank for heating. this way water wouldnt sit stagnant in the electric
tank. //// during peak use he would reverse this by changing valve
position to gas tank first and turning on electric tank. valves are
cheap, with 2 tanks of differing ages I would altering valving to
isolate one tank or the other, that way when one fails as it certinally
will one day he moves some valves and has hot water from the remaining
good tank till the bad one is replaced.

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Craig Robison
 
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wrote in message
ups.com...
With the electric tank LAST in series, only turning on the electric
tank during periods of peak use will not work, since the water after
being heated by the gas tank would cool and never be heated in the
electric last tank. espically is they didnt use hot water for a couple
days

if his electric bills spike he could add some valves, during normal use
water would enter electric tank first, and not be heated, going to gas
tank for heating. this way water wouldnt sit stagnant in the electric
tank. //// during peak use he would reverse this by changing valve
position to gas tank first and turning on electric tank. valves are
cheap, with 2 tanks of differing ages I would altering valving to
isolate one tank or the other, that way when one fails as it certinally
will one day he moves some valves and has hot water from the remaining
good tank till the bad one is replaced.


I certainly could do that. Or I thought I could just use a couple of valves
to bypass the electric water heater all together and take the gas heated
water straight into the house, but, I am concerned about what happens to a
full tank of un-heated water sitting for days. I also thought about putting
in a power-vented gas model in series ahead of my existing model. With it
there is no pilot light so I could put a switch to kill the power to the
heater, no power = no heating, but this idea became somewhat cost
prohibitive and again I would have the problem of water sitting in a tank
un-heated. Would you guys (gals?) mind giving me some feedback on my second
post about the insulation blankets. I really appreciate all the ideas so
far. I do think I will take the advice and raise the temp on the gas heater
a bit in an effort to keep the electric one from running at all.
Craig


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Bob
 
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Default Water Heater Install Question

No matter what you do, be sure to put a drain pan under each of these water
heaters in your attic and pipe the drain down to someplace in the living
space where you will see it right away. It's easier than having to replace
half your ceiling.

"Craig Robison" wrote in message
.. .
wrote in message
ups.com...
With the electric tank LAST in series, only turning on the electric
tank during periods of peak use will not work, since the water after
being heated by the gas tank would cool and never be heated in the
electric last tank. espically is they didnt use hot water for a couple
days

if his electric bills spike he could add some valves, during normal use
water would enter electric tank first, and not be heated, going to gas
tank for heating. this way water wouldnt sit stagnant in the electric
tank. //// during peak use he would reverse this by changing valve
position to gas tank first and turning on electric tank. valves are
cheap, with 2 tanks of differing ages I would altering valving to
isolate one tank or the other, that way when one fails as it certinally
will one day he moves some valves and has hot water from the remaining
good tank till the bad one is replaced.


I certainly could do that. Or I thought I could just use a couple of

valves
to bypass the electric water heater all together and take the gas heated
water straight into the house, but, I am concerned about what happens to a
full tank of un-heated water sitting for days. I also thought about

putting
in a power-vented gas model in series ahead of my existing model. With it
there is no pilot light so I could put a switch to kill the power to the
heater, no power = no heating, but this idea became somewhat cost
prohibitive and again I would have the problem of water sitting in a tank


un-heated. Would you guys (gals?) mind giving me some feedback on my

second
post about the insulation blankets. I really appreciate all the ideas so
far. I do think I will take the advice and raise the temp on the gas

heater
a bit in an effort to keep the electric one from running at all.
Craig






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Default Water Heater Install Question

the more insulation the better! Just DONT block venting or burner
access on the gas heater! or wiring access on the electric

if you can insulate hot water line between and leaving tanks, that will
save a little, and save running water till it gets hot too. insulated
lines are a save save save!!

They have premaid hot water tank insulating blankets. safe convenient
and pretty cheap.

just for the record I wouldnt leave any tank sit with stagnant water
hot or not for a extended time. if were on vacation for a week I make a
habit of running water espically hot but both when we get home, its
cheap and seems a good precaution...

  #32   Report Post  
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Bob
 
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Default Water Heater Install Question

I have seen those blankets cause condensation to remain on the water heater,
thus rusting it out sooner than it should have.

wrote in message
ups.com...
the more insulation the better! Just DONT block venting or burner
access on the gas heater! or wiring access on the electric

if you can insulate hot water line between and leaving tanks, that will
save a little, and save running water till it gets hot too. insulated
lines are a save save save!!

They have premaid hot water tank insulating blankets. safe convenient
and pretty cheap.

just for the record I wouldnt leave any tank sit with stagnant water
hot or not for a extended time. if were on vacation for a week I make a
habit of running water espically hot but both when we get home, its
cheap and seems a good precaution...



  #33   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
Craig Robison
 
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Default Water Heater Install Question

"Bob" wrote in message
...
No matter what you do, be sure to put a drain pan under each of these
water
heaters in your attic and pipe the drain down to someplace in the living
space where you will see it right away. It's easier than having to replace
half your ceiling.



There is a drip pan under each heater. Code requires 6 inches deep (which
they are). The are both connected to a 1" PVC drain line which exits the
attic and dumps the water outside the house should they leak.


  #34   Report Post  
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Craig Robison
 
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Default Water Heater Install Question


wrote in message
ups.com...
the more insulation the better! Just DONT block venting or burner
access on the gas heater! or wiring access on the electric

if you can insulate hot water line between and leaving tanks, that will
save a little, and save running water till it gets hot too. insulated
lines are a save save save!!

They have premaid hot water tank insulating blankets. safe convenient
and pretty cheap.

just for the record I wouldnt leave any tank sit with stagnant water
hot or not for a extended time. if were on vacation for a week I make a
habit of running water espically hot but both when we get home, its
cheap and seems a good precaution...


I already took the liberty of insulating the pipes. To their credit, the
original plumbing was insulated as well, I just had to add to it when I ran
some extra lines to tie the water heaters together. I have seen these
pre-made insulation blankets at Lowes for I believe $14. Lastly I don't
think that leaving a tank of water sit is a good idea either, therefore I
will just try to keep the use of the electric heater to a minimum.
Thanks for the feedback...


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Bob
 
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Default Water Heater Install Question

That's good, but make sure you can see any water from a window you look out
a lot. I've seen people run them into rain gutter and never know they were
leaking until the water heater bursts. Then they say "I guess that's where
all the water on my lawn was coming from."

"Craig Robison" wrote in message
. ..
"Bob" wrote in message
...
No matter what you do, be sure to put a drain pan under each of these
water
heaters in your attic and pipe the drain down to someplace in the living
space where you will see it right away. It's easier than having to

replace
half your ceiling.



There is a drip pan under each heater. Code requires 6 inches deep (which
they are). The are both connected to a 1" PVC drain line which exits the
attic and dumps the water outside the house should they leak.






  #36   Report Post  
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Dan_Musicant
 
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Default Water Heater Install Question

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 04:45:10 GMT, "Craig Robison"
wrote:

:
:"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
:news:OfhCf.453788$ki.271597@pd7tw2no...
: Craig Robison wrote:
: I have a perfectly good 40 gallon Natural Gas water heater (in the attic)
: it sometimes proved to be insufficient with company in town so I did what
: you should not do and cranked up the temp to about 145-150 and it seemed
: to help although we still ran out during times of heavy use. Now we have
: a kid on the way, water is SCALDING HOT and we are going to need more of
: it anyway. Long story short I found that it was cheaper to add a second
: 40 gallon water heater (plenty of room) than to replace the existing one
: (I hated the idea of removing a good water heater, it is only 5 years
: old). Also, I went electric instead of gas, mostly because I did not
: want to cut a hole in the roof for the vent AND the electric model was
: cheaper AND I just happened to have a no-longer-used 10 gauge wire
: running right to it. Natural gas prices are sky-rocketing but I still
: think that a gas water heater is cheaper to operate than an electric
: model SO, I plumbed them in series rather than parallel. That is to say
: the hot water leaves the gas water heater and goes into the electric
: water heater then into the house. In this manner I figure that the gas
: heater is still doing most of the heating and the electric one is more
: like a storage tank. I have set them both to 125 degrees, the minimum
: temperature that the dishwasher manual recommends (to do this I filled a
: bucket full from the T&P valve and took the temp right there). My
: question, is there anything wrong with having the water flow from one to
: the other in this manner? I cannot see why the electric water heater
: cares what temperature the inlet water is. For what it is worth the guy
: at Home Depot thought it was brilliant, but he aint a plumber, and
: neither am I...
: Any Thoughts?
:
: Craig
:
:
: Hi,
: I always had two gas heater in series. But have no experience with
: gas-electric combo. I'd think they'll have different recovery rate.
: Tony
:
:I agree, I suspect that the 3800 watt, single element, el-cheapo electric
:water heater recovers pretty slow. Compared to the 30K BTU NG heater...
:another reason I put them in series.
:Craig
:
What I don't understand is setting them at the same temperature. If you
are going to do that I'd think you'd have the gas one before the
electric one and set the electric one's thermostat a little higher than
the gas. Then the gas one will do most of the work (which is what you
want). IOW, if you want 125 degree water, set the gas one to 110 or 115
and the electric to 125.

Dan
  #37   Report Post  
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Craig Robison
 
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Default Water Heater Install Question


" :
:
: Hi,
: I always had two gas heater in series. But have no experience with
: gas-electric combo. I'd think they'll have different recovery rate.
: Tony
:
:I agree, I suspect that the 3800 watt, single element, el-cheapo electric
:water heater recovers pretty slow. Compared to the 30K BTU NG heater...
:another reason I put them in series.
:Craig
:
What I don't understand is setting them at the same temperature. If you
are going to do that I'd think you'd have the gas one before the
electric one and set the electric one's thermostat a little higher than
the gas. Then the gas one will do most of the work (which is what you
want). IOW, if you want 125 degree water, set the gas one to 110 or 115
and the electric to 125.

Dan


Well, I've been down this road too. In fact for a while I ran the gas
heater (which is the first in the series) at about 115 degrees and the
electric at 120. My thinking was that the gas one would do "most" of the
heating and the electric could kick it up that last 5 degrees. In this
manner the standby heat loss from the gas heater would be as low as possible
because the water is only at about 115. The new heater I suspect has the
better insulation and so I would be wasting less energy keeping it at 120.
But, now I'm not so sure... perhaps it is better to run the gas heater at
say 130 and in so doing try to prevent the electric one from even turning on
under normal loads and only run during times of heavy demand. But that
would increase my standby loss in the gas heater which means it starts
costing more. The question is, (taking into consideration the standby
losses from both water heaters) is it cheaper to run the gas at 115 and let
the electric one raise it to 120 OR is it cheaper to run the gas at 125-130
and try to prevent the electric one from running at all? I realize that
they both will run from time to time as a result of the standby losses...
While I'm thinking about it, is there a way for me to track how much the
electric heater runs? I need like a 240 volt clock that I can hook to the
terminals on the heating element or perhaps some sort of inline meter (much
like the utility company uses). I figure with something like that I can
just "tweak" my settings from weak to weak until I find a combination that
runs the electric heater as seldom as possible.

Craig



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