In late November I hired a guy to shovel my driveway for the 2005-06
winter season. I live southeast of Buffalo, NY so it snows quite a
bit. He first quoted me $250, and then he changed it to $300 when he
saw that my driveway was longer than average. I agreed to pay $300,
and I agreed to give him $150 up front and the balance in January.
Last weekend he showed up unannounced asking for the balance. He
really caught me off guard, and I had company and didn't want to get
into an argument, so I just paid him. Meanwhile, it has snowed a
couple of times since I gave him the first installment and he only
showed up once to shovel my driveway/sidewalk. But since the snow
wasn't too deep, I let it go. I know the snow was deep enough to
shovel because he shoveled the driveway/sidewalk across the street (he
works for them too). Now today he shows up (and we had some lake
effect snow last night) and he wants more money. He says that I have a
really long driveway and I should pay him more money. I tell him very
nicely that I understand he has a business, but that I agreed to pay
$300 and that is all I am willing to pay, and if he feels that it is
not adequate, he can refund the rest of the money I already paid him
and I'll find someone else. He says, let's talk about this again when
I finish your driveway, and then he goes out to shovel. While he's out
there I'm inside steaming because this is the second person who has
done something like this to me (the first was a drywaller who quoted me
one price and then demanded more money after he had done just enough
work in the room to make it impossible for me to scrap the whole job).
But I decided that I wanted to be reasonable, so I decided that I would
agree to pay him more money under two conditions: First, he would do
my driveway so that I can leave the house by 8:00am on weekdays (the
two times he showed up he didn't even get here until after 9) and
second I would pay him the new balance due some time in February. Well
he had a fit. He wanted the money now. He said that my driveway is a
lot of work and he's very trustworthy and it's not like he won't show
up if I pay him now. I said I've already paid you $300 and you've
shoveled my driveway twice. Even if I agree that it's worth more than
$300 for the whole year (and I don't necessarily agree on that) I do
NOT agree that the balance is due NOW. How the heck does he figure I
should pay him another couple hundred dollars NOW???

I have definitely learned my lesson this time. I'm not hiring anyone
to do anything anymore if I have to pay them a deposit up front.
People can really suck sometimes. I don't know if these guys would do
this to me if I had a husband or boyfriend living here with me who
could deal with these kinds of things, but I tend to think not. I can
probably kiss my $300 goodbye. He probably won't show up to shovel
anymore, and I guess that's what I deserve for paying him up front.
The only reason I even trusted this guy was because I watched him LAST
YEAR do the shoveling for the people across the street, and he was very
reliable. But I guess reliability isn't everything.

Lesley

Do it yourself, go buy a plough at wal-mart and do it yourself. Ditto the
drywall.
All you lazy, bellyaching faggot americans really **** me off. Next its "the
Iranians fought back with nukes" or the North Koreans threaten us. Be a man
you POS gaywad.
"Lesley" wrote in message
oups.com...
In late November I hired a guy to shovel my driveway for the 2005-06
winter season. I live southeast of Buffalo, NY so it snows quite a
bit. He first quoted me $250, and then he changed it to $300 when he
saw that my driveway was longer than average. I agreed to pay $300,
and I agreed to give him $150 up front and the balance in January.
Last weekend he showed up unannounced asking for the balance. He
really caught me off guard, and I had company and didn't want to get
into an argument, so I just paid him. Meanwhile, it has snowed a
couple of times since I gave him the first installment and he only
showed up once to shovel my driveway/sidewalk. But since the snow
wasn't too deep, I let it go. I know the snow was deep enough to
shovel because he shoveled the driveway/sidewalk across the street (he
works for them too). Now today he shows up (and we had some lake
effect snow last night) and he wants more money. He says that I have a
really long driveway and I should pay him more money. I tell him very
nicely that I understand he has a business, but that I agreed to pay
$300 and that is all I am willing to pay, and if he feels that it is
not adequate, he can refund the rest of the money I already paid him
and I'll find someone else. He says, let's talk about this again when
I finish your driveway, and then he goes out to shovel. While he's out
there I'm inside steaming because this is the second person who has
done something like this to me (the first was a drywaller who quoted me
one price and then demanded more money after he had done just enough
work in the room to make it impossible for me to scrap the whole job).
But I decided that I wanted to be reasonable, so I decided that I would
agree to pay him more money under two conditions: First, he would do
my driveway so that I can leave the house by 8:00am on weekdays (the
two times he showed up he didn't even get here until after 9) and
second I would pay him the new balance due some time in February. Well
he had a fit. He wanted the money now. He said that my driveway is a
lot of work and he's very trustworthy and it's not like he won't show
up if I pay him now. I said I've already paid you $300 and you've
shoveled my driveway twice. Even if I agree that it's worth more than
$300 for the whole year (and I don't necessarily agree on that) I do
NOT agree that the balance is due NOW. How the heck does he figure I
should pay him another couple hundred dollars NOW???

I have definitely learned my lesson this time. I'm not hiring anyone
to do anything anymore if I have to pay them a deposit up front.
People can really suck sometimes. I don't know if these guys would do
this to me if I had a husband or boyfriend living here with me who
could deal with these kinds of things, but I tend to think not. I can
probably kiss my $300 goodbye. He probably won't show up to shovel
anymore, and I guess that's what I deserve for paying him up front.
The only reason I even trusted this guy was because I watched him LAST
YEAR do the shoveling for the people across the street, and he was very
reliable. But I guess reliability isn't everything.

Lesley

You have a few options:

1) Write it off as "lesson learned" and in the furture get something in
writing with a signature.

2) Tell him you will be reporting him to the city/town officials (some
plaves that won't do you any good), or

3) Have a nice sign ready the next time you have a good snowfall
"advertising his ****-poor services".....


"Lesley" wrote in message
oups.com...
In late November I hired a guy to shovel my driveway for the 2005-06
winter season. I live southeast of Buffalo, NY so it snows quite a
bit. He first quoted me $250, and then he changed it to $300 when he
saw that my driveway was longer than average. I agreed to pay $300,
and I agreed to give him $150 up front and the balance in January.
Last weekend he showed up unannounced asking for the balance. He
really caught me off guard, and I had company and didn't want to get
into an argument, so I just paid him. Meanwhile, it has snowed a
couple of times since I gave him the first installment and he only
showed up once to shovel my driveway/sidewalk. But since the snow
wasn't too deep, I let it go. I know the snow was deep enough to
shovel because he shoveled the driveway/sidewalk across the street (he
works for them too). Now today he shows up (and we had some lake
effect snow last night) and he wants more money. He says that I have a
really long driveway and I should pay him more money. I tell him very
nicely that I understand he has a business, but that I agreed to pay
$300 and that is all I am willing to pay, and if he feels that it is
not adequate, he can refund the rest of the money I already paid him
and I'll find someone else. He says, let's talk about this again when
I finish your driveway, and then he goes out to shovel. While he's out
there I'm inside steaming because this is the second person who has
done something like this to me (the first was a drywaller who quoted me
one price and then demanded more money after he had done just enough
work in the room to make it impossible for me to scrap the whole job).
But I decided that I wanted to be reasonable, so I decided that I would
agree to pay him more money under two conditions: First, he would do
my driveway so that I can leave the house by 8:00am on weekdays (the
two times he showed up he didn't even get here until after 9) and
second I would pay him the new balance due some time in February. Well
he had a fit. He wanted the money now. He said that my driveway is a
lot of work and he's very trustworthy and it's not like he won't show
up if I pay him now. I said I've already paid you $300 and you've
shoveled my driveway twice. Even if I agree that it's worth more than
$300 for the whole year (and I don't necessarily agree on that) I do
NOT agree that the balance is due NOW. How the heck does he figure I
should pay him another couple hundred dollars NOW???

I have definitely learned my lesson this time. I'm not hiring anyone
to do anything anymore if I have to pay them a deposit up front.
People can really suck sometimes. I don't know if these guys would do
this to me if I had a husband or boyfriend living here with me who
could deal with these kinds of things, but I tend to think not. I can
probably kiss my $300 goodbye. He probably won't show up to shovel
anymore, and I guess that's what I deserve for paying him up front.
The only reason I even trusted this guy was because I watched him LAST
YEAR do the shoveling for the people across the street, and he was very
reliable. But I guess reliability isn't everything.

Lesley

Lesley,
I suggest that you do the following:

*Write the man a letter* (do not do this verbally) saying the following:

1. You and I agreed on ______ (date) that you would clear my driveway of
snow throughout this winter for $300. This amount reflects a revision we
agree to after you realized that my driveway was longer than average.

2. We agreed that I would pay you $150 downpayment that i would pay the
remaining $150 in January.

3. This past week (give the date) you then demanded the remaining $150,
several weeks earlier than we agreed. I paid you early.

4. Now you want even more money than the $300.

5. Even though you have failed to clear my driveway of snow several
times (though you did clear the snow from my neighbor's driveway on
these occasions) I did offer to pay you more but only if you would
guarantee to clear my driveway by 8AM. I am under the impression that
you refused to accept this quid-pro-quo modification to our original
agreement.

6. I would like to restate my offer. I am willing to pay you $___ extra
whenever you clear my driveway of snow before 8AM as a "quick response
surcharge". But this additional surcharge will be paid to you on each
such occasion, not as an advance. No further monies will be paid to you
in advance.

7. Please be advised that the next time you fail to clear my driveway of
snow, I will consider you in breach of our original agreement and may
file a claim in small claims court seeking a partial refund of the
monies I paid to you under our agreement, for failure to perform services.


If you agree to this 8AM surcharge, please sign and date below and give
this letter back to me, keeping a copy for your records. If you do not
agree, our original verbal agreement is still in full force and effect.



_______________ _________________________
You name here his name here

date ( ) date( )


Regards
Timo


Lesley wrote:
In late November I hired a guy to shovel my driveway for the 2005-06
winter season. I live southeast of Buffalo, NY so it snows quite a
bit. He first quoted me $250, and then he changed it to $300 when he
saw that my driveway was longer than average. I agreed to pay $300,
and I agreed to give him $150 up front and the balance in January.
Last weekend he showed up unannounced asking for the balance. He
really caught me off guard, and I had company and didn't want to get
into an argument, so I just paid him. Meanwhile, it has snowed a
couple of times since I gave him the first installment and he only
showed up once to shovel my driveway/sidewalk. But since the snow
wasn't too deep, I let it go. I know the snow was deep enough to
shovel because he shoveled the driveway/sidewalk across the street (he
works for them too). Now today he shows up (and we had some lake
effect snow last night) and he wants more money. He says that I have a
really long driveway and I should pay him more money. I tell him very
nicely that I understand he has a business, but that I agreed to pay
$300 and that is all I am willing to pay, and if he feels that it is
not adequate, he can refund the rest of the money I already paid him
and I'll find someone else. He says, let's talk about this again when
I finish your driveway, and then he goes out to shovel. While he's out
there I'm inside steaming because this is the second person who has
done something like this to me (the first was a drywaller who quoted me
one price and then demanded more money after he had done just enough
work in the room to make it impossible for me to scrap the whole job).
But I decided that I wanted to be reasonable, so I decided that I would
agree to pay him more money under two conditions: First, he would do
my driveway so that I can leave the house by 8:00am on weekdays (the
two times he showed up he didn't even get here until after 9) and
second I would pay him the new balance due some time in February. Well
he had a fit. He wanted the money now. He said that my driveway is a
lot of work and he's very trustworthy and it's not like he won't show
up if I pay him now. I said I've already paid you $300 and you've
shoveled my driveway twice. Even if I agree that it's worth more than
$300 for the whole year (and I don't necessarily agree on that) I do
NOT agree that the balance is due NOW. How the heck does he figure I
should pay him another couple hundred dollars NOW???

I have definitely learned my lesson this time. I'm not hiring anyone
to do anything anymore if I have to pay them a deposit up front.
People can really suck sometimes. I don't know if these guys would do
this to me if I had a husband or boyfriend living here with me who
could deal with these kinds of things, but I tend to think not. I can
probably kiss my $300 goodbye. He probably won't show up to shovel
anymore, and I guess that's what I deserve for paying him up front.
The only reason I even trusted this guy was because I watched him LAST
YEAR do the shoveling for the people across the street, and he was very
reliable. But I guess reliability isn't everything.

Lesley

"Lesley" wrote in message
oups.com...
In late November I hired a guy to shovel my driveway for the 2005-06
winter season. I live southeast of Buffalo, NY so it snows quite a
bit. He first quoted me $250, and then he changed it to $300 when he
saw that my driveway was longer than average. I agreed to pay $300,
and I agreed to give him $150 up front and the balance in January.
Last weekend he showed up unannounced asking for the balance. He
really caught me off guard, and I had company and didn't want to get
into an argument, so I just paid him. Meanwhile, it has snowed a
couple of times since I gave him the first installment and he only
showed up once to shovel my driveway/sidewalk. But since the snow
wasn't too deep, I let it go. I know the snow was deep enough to
shovel because he shoveled the driveway/sidewalk across the street (he
works for them too). Now today he shows up (and we had some lake
effect snow last night) and he wants more money. He says that I have a
really long driveway and I should pay him more money. I tell him very
nicely that I understand he has a business, but that I agreed to pay
$300 and that is all I am willing to pay, and if he feels that it is
not adequate, he can refund the rest of the money I already paid him
and I'll find someone else. He says, let's talk about this again when
I finish your driveway, and then he goes out to shovel. While he's out
there I'm inside steaming because this is the second person who has
done something like this to me (the first was a drywaller who quoted me
one price and then demanded more money after he had done just enough
work in the room to make it impossible for me to scrap the whole job).
But I decided that I wanted to be reasonable, so I decided that I would
agree to pay him more money under two conditions: First, he would do
my driveway so that I can leave the house by 8:00am on weekdays (the
two times he showed up he didn't even get here until after 9) and
second I would pay him the new balance due some time in February. Well
he had a fit. He wanted the money now. He said that my driveway is a
lot of work and he's very trustworthy and it's not like he won't show
up if I pay him now. I said I've already paid you $300 and you've
shoveled my driveway twice. Even if I agree that it's worth more than
$300 for the whole year (and I don't necessarily agree on that) I do
NOT agree that the balance is due NOW. How the heck does he figure I
should pay him another couple hundred dollars NOW???

I have definitely learned my lesson this time. I'm not hiring anyone
to do anything anymore if I have to pay them a deposit up front.
People can really suck sometimes. I don't know if these guys would do
this to me if I had a husband or boyfriend living here with me who
could deal with these kinds of things, but I tend to think not. I can
probably kiss my $300 goodbye. He probably won't show up to shovel
anymore, and I guess that's what I deserve for paying him up front.
The only reason I even trusted this guy was because I watched him LAST
YEAR do the shoveling for the people across the street, and he was very
reliable. But I guess reliability isn't everything.

Lesley


Hell, I'll do it for $250. Of course, you have to pay up front. I will e
mail you my snail mail addy where you can send the small denomination bills
in a plain envelope.

I'll get back to you as to when I can work you into my busy schedule.
Probably after snow melt.

Steve

"Lesley" wrote in message
oups.com...
In late November I hired a guy to shovel my driveway for the 2005-06
winter season. I live southeast of Buffalo, NY so it snows quite a
bit. He first quoted me $250, and then he changed it to $300 when he
saw that my driveway was longer than average. I agreed to pay $300,
and I agreed to give him $150 up front and the balance in January.
Last weekend he showed up unannounced asking for the balance. He
really caught me off guard, and I had company and didn't want to get
into an argument, so I just paid him. Meanwhile, it has snowed a
couple of times since I gave him the first installment and he only
showed up once to shovel my driveway/sidewalk. But since the snow
wasn't too deep, I let it go. I know the snow was deep enough to
shovel because he shoveled the driveway/sidewalk across the street (he
works for them too). Now today he shows up (and we had some lake
effect snow last night) and he wants more money. He says that I have a
really long driveway and I should pay him more money. I tell him very
nicely that I understand he has a business, but that I agreed to pay
$300 and that is all I am willing to pay, and if he feels that it is
not adequate, he can refund the rest of the money I already paid him
and I'll find someone else. He says, let's talk about this again when
I finish your driveway, and then he goes out to shovel. While he's out
there I'm inside steaming because this is the second person who has
done something like this to me (the first was a drywaller who quoted me
one price and then demanded more money after he had done just enough
work in the room to make it impossible for me to scrap the whole job).
But I decided that I wanted to be reasonable, so I decided that I would
agree to pay him more money under two conditions: First, he would do
my driveway so that I can leave the house by 8:00am on weekdays (the
two times he showed up he didn't even get here until after 9) and
second I would pay him the new balance due some time in February. Well
he had a fit. He wanted the money now. He said that my driveway is a
lot of work and he's very trustworthy and it's not like he won't show
up if I pay him now. I said I've already paid you $300 and you've
shoveled my driveway twice. Even if I agree that it's worth more than
$300 for the whole year (and I don't necessarily agree on that) I do
NOT agree that the balance is due NOW. How the heck does he figure I
should pay him another couple hundred dollars NOW???

I have definitely learned my lesson this time. I'm not hiring anyone
to do anything anymore if I have to pay them a deposit up front.
People can really suck sometimes. I don't know if these guys would do
this to me if I had a husband or boyfriend living here with me who
could deal with these kinds of things, but I tend to think not. I can
probably kiss my $300 goodbye. He probably won't show up to shovel
anymore, and I guess that's what I deserve for paying him up front.
The only reason I even trusted this guy was because I watched him LAST
YEAR do the shoveling for the people across the street, and he was very
reliable. But I guess reliability isn't everything.

Lesley


Contract, writing, specify breach penalties, small claims court, get a
backbone...

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:43:22 -0500, Timo wrote:

*Write the man a letter* (do not do this verbally) saying the following:

You're even more stupid than the dumb bitch who started this whole thread.
Do you really think the dude is going to sign anything?

--
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 08:00:17 -0800, Lesley wrote:

In late November I hired a guy to shovel my driveway for the 2005-06

You're an ignorant bitch who deserves what you got. Smarten up and buy a
****ing snowblower or something.

--
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951

I am definitely writing it off as a lesson learned. I'm not sure
getting something in writing would have mattered. The drywaller who
pulled the same thing on me last year signed a contract, but that
didn't stop him from demanding more money half-way through the job,
after I'd already paid him more than half in advance per our written
contract.

I'm just not going to pay anything up front anymore!

Lesley

Take trip to your local tavern. I am sure you can find one of the regulars
there who will give him a $50 attitude adjustment. During the adjustment,
have the adjuster remind him that you expect free shoveling for life, or
another adjustment will be given.

Steve

"Dan C" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 08:00:17 -0800, Lesley wrote:

In late November I hired a guy to shovel my driveway for the 2005-06

You're an ignorant bitch who deserves what you got. Smarten up and buy a
****ing snowblower or something.

Shut the **** up and get off mommies computer.

The lady was asking for some help not your juvenile bull****.

Tell your mom I said hi.....

"Lesley" wrote in message
ups.com...
I am definitely writing it off as a lesson learned. I'm not sure
getting something in writing would have mattered. The drywaller who
pulled the same thing on me last year signed a contract, but that
didn't stop him from demanding more money half-way through the job,
after I'd already paid him more than half in advance per our written
contract.

I'm just not going to pay anything up front anymore!

Most contractors require a downpayment before starting a project. Always go
with a reliable one (ask your friends and neighbors). Any contractor that
DOESN'T have some kind of written contract (signed by you and them) should
probably be avoided.

Another thing: Always use a check or a credit card so you have a record of
the transaction.

Maybe try to approach with a non-confrontational attitude and ask him how he
can resolve this problem?? Worth a try....

If he doesn't come back, which is likely to happen, and you want to get
some satisfaction, you can sue him in small claims court. Of course
that will take time, but may make you feel good. There are two
problems:

! - Proving your case

I assume you don't have anything in writing, which is a lessoned
learned. If you live in a state that allows recording of phone
conversations with only one party's consent, you could try to get him
on the phone and record him discussing the deal. You say look, I
paid you x, you agreed to do y, you didn't show up, etc. If he
doesn't deny it, you have pretty good proof. You could also carry a
pocket recorder, again if your state laws allow this. Sometimes jerks
like this will leave a mesg on your answering machine that is good
evidence of what they did. Be sure to save it if he does.

2 - Collecting a judgement

Most of these skunks are judgement proof, so unless you know he has a
real job or assets, collecting will likely be impossible.

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:37:46 +0000, Red Neckerson wrote:

You're an ignorant bitch who deserves what you got. Smarten up and buy a
****ing snowblower or something.

Shut the **** up and get off mommies computer.

Kiss my ass, punk.

The lady was asking for some help not your juvenile bull****.

She wasn't asking for help, she was whining.

Tell your mom I said hi.....

Tell your wife I'm gonna insist on the anal, next time.

--
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951

That made me chuckle! My boss, who is Italian, always tells me that he
has goombas, if I ever need someone taken care of. Maybe I should talk
to him about this. . .

L

Actually, I decided to use this guy because he was doing such a great
job for the people across the street. I guess I should have SPOKEN to
them first instead of just seeing what a good job he was doing and then
ASSuME-ing that it was safe to hire him.

It may be that most contrators require a downpayment, but I just don't
feel comfortable taking the chance anymore. Maybe it's not too bright
to walk away from this with THAT being the lesson learned, but I'm
certain that if I stick with this rule--never paying anyone up front--I
won't be so easily screwed. Since I bought this house I've used five
contractors. The ones that gave me trouble are the two whom I had to
pay up front. Two of the others were great and wouldn't take any money
up front. They both did excellent work and I use them still (for
heating, plumbing, electrical work, carpentry and drywalling). The
fifth one quoted me an exhorbitant price the first time out so I went
with one of the other guys who did great work for half the cost.

By the way, I did try to approach the situation non-confrontationally.
The whole time we were having our conversation about "mo money mo money
mo money" I was being very nice, reasonable, soft-spoken even.
However, he was the one who was getting really ****ed off because I
wouldn't agree to pay him NOW. He ended up turning on his heels and
just walking away from me in the middle of the discussion. I wasn't
going to stand there in my driveway in the freezing cold, so I just
went in the house.

L

He doesn't have to sign. Her letter is a written record of their verbal
agreement. If he doesn't respond, either in a writing of his own or by
signing her agreement, it amounts, pretty much, to his tacit acceptance
of her statement of the terms of that verbal agreement.

It also puts him on notice that she intends to have him live up to the
original agreement.

Most important of all, the letter sets up a possible win-win scenario:
she will pay him some surcharge for reliable and extra-prompt 8AM
service, but not as a lump-sum advance. It's a possible way out, where
she doesn't lose her money and he stands to earn some more money from
this job.

Optimistic maybe, but not stupid.
Timo



Dan C wrote:
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:43:22 -0500, Timo wrote:


*Write the man a letter* (do not do this verbally) saying the following:


You're even more stupid than the dumb bitch who started this whole thread.
Do you really think the dude is going to sign anything?

"Lesley" wrote in message
ups.com...
Actually, I decided to use this guy because he was doing such a great
job for the people across the street. I guess I should have SPOKEN to
them first instead of just seeing what a good job he was doing and then
ASSuME-ing that it was safe to hire him.

It may be that most contrators require a downpayment, but I just don't
feel comfortable taking the chance anymore. Maybe it's not too bright
to walk away from this with THAT being the lesson learned, but I'm
certain that if I stick with this rule--never paying anyone up front--I
won't be so easily screwed. Since I bought this house I've used five
contractors. The ones that gave me trouble are the two whom I had to
pay up front. Two of the others were great and wouldn't take any money
up front. They both did excellent work and I use them still (for
heating, plumbing, electrical work, carpentry and drywalling). The
fifth one quoted me an exhorbitant price the first time out so I went
with one of the other guys who did great work for half the cost.

By the way, I did try to approach the situation non-confrontationally.
The whole time we were having our conversation about "mo money mo money
mo money" I was being very nice, reasonable, soft-spoken even.
However, he was the one who was getting really ****ed off because I
wouldn't agree to pay him NOW. He ended up turning on his heels and
just walking away from me in the middle of the discussion. I wasn't
going to stand there in my driveway in the freezing cold, so I just
went in the house.


I have another idea:

Move to where there is no snow....

;-]

(In a couple of years......)

"Dan C" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:37:46 +0000, Red Neckerson wrote:

You're an ignorant bitch who deserves what you got. Smarten up and buy
a
****ing snowblower or something.

Shut the **** up and get off mommies computer.

Kiss my ass, punk.

The lady was asking for some help not your juvenile bull****.

She wasn't asking for help, she was whining.

Tell your mom I said hi.....

Tell your wife I'm gonna insist on the anal, next time.

Don't have a wife, but I'm sure she wouldn't want you after you've been
doing your Dad.....

"Christian Fox" wrote

You paid HALF up front? Way too much.


As a general rule, 15% of the total contract amount should be more than
enough as a
deposit. The rest of the money should be paid out as the work is
completed.

Try finding a contractor that only wants 15% when something more than labor
is involved......

Lesley wrote:
I am definitely writing it off as a lesson learned. I'm not sure
getting something in writing would have mattered. The drywaller who
pulled the same thing on me last year signed a contract, but that
didn't stop him from demanding more money half-way through the job,
after I'd already paid him more than half in advance per our written
contract.

I'm just not going to pay anything up front anymore!

Lesley

Lesley, people can demand whatever the hell they want, but if the
payment schedule is written into the contract, it doesn't mean jack
****.

Just because they ask for it doesn't mean you should pay it!

Dr. Hardcrab wrote:
"Lesley" wrote in message
ups.com...
Actually, I decided to use this guy because he was doing such a great
job for the people across the street. I guess I should have SPOKEN to
them first instead of just seeing what a good job he was doing and then
ASSuME-ing that it was safe to hire him.

It may be that most contrators require a downpayment, but I just don't
feel comfortable taking the chance anymore. Maybe it's not too bright
to walk away from this with THAT being the lesson learned, but I'm
certain that if I stick with this rule--never paying anyone up front--I
won't be so easily screwed. Since I bought this house I've used five
contractors. The ones that gave me trouble are the two whom I had to
pay up front. Two of the others were great and wouldn't take any money
up front. They both did excellent work and I use them still (for
heating, plumbing, electrical work, carpentry and drywalling). The
fifth one quoted me an exhorbitant price the first time out so I went
with one of the other guys who did great work for half the cost.

By the way, I did try to approach the situation non-confrontationally.
The whole time we were having our conversation about "mo money mo money
mo money" I was being very nice, reasonable, soft-spoken even.
However, he was the one who was getting really ****ed off because I
wouldn't agree to pay him NOW. He ended up turning on his heels and
just walking away from me in the middle of the discussion. I wasn't
going to stand there in my driveway in the freezing cold, so I just
went in the house.


I have another idea:

Move to where there is no snow....


The better idea is to take his ass to small claims.

"Larry Bud" wrote in message
oups.com...

Dr. Hardcrab wrote:
"Lesley" wrote in message
ups.com...
Actually, I decided to use this guy because he was doing such a great
job for the people across the street. I guess I should have SPOKEN to
them first instead of just seeing what a good job he was doing and then
ASSuME-ing that it was safe to hire him.

It may be that most contrators require a downpayment, but I just don't
feel comfortable taking the chance anymore. Maybe it's not too bright
to walk away from this with THAT being the lesson learned, but I'm
certain that if I stick with this rule--never paying anyone up front--I
won't be so easily screwed. Since I bought this house I've used five
contractors. The ones that gave me trouble are the two whom I had to
pay up front. Two of the others were great and wouldn't take any money
up front. They both did excellent work and I use them still (for
heating, plumbing, electrical work, carpentry and drywalling). The
fifth one quoted me an exhorbitant price the first time out so I went
with one of the other guys who did great work for half the cost.

By the way, I did try to approach the situation non-confrontationally.
The whole time we were having our conversation about "mo money mo money
mo money" I was being very nice, reasonable, soft-spoken even.
However, he was the one who was getting really ****ed off because I
wouldn't agree to pay him NOW. He ended up turning on his heels and
just walking away from me in the middle of the discussion. I wasn't
going to stand there in my driveway in the freezing cold, so I just
went in the house.


I have another idea:

Move to where there is no snow....


The better idea is to take his ass to small claims.

Yeah. That'll help defer some of the moving bills....

;-]

As a HVAC contractor in SC, I normally ask for 1/2 down on contract
jobs, and get it. Huwever, I normally provide a 3 to 4 page WRITTEN
proposal that we both sign and date. It spells out what I will do and
what I will not do, the payment terms, my insurance, extra charges for
changes and any discounts for options not taken.

Next time get it in writing and pay by check. Doesn't need to be
typed, but should have his name and address & your name and address.
Small operator like that probably can't handle credit cards.

He sounds like a real jerk. Still send him the letter, return receipt
requested so you have proof of delivery. If he refuses it, you may get
proof of that also. Then go to small claims or magistrate court.
Filing fees are added to the award in many states. If you lose, it
will only cost some time and the fees in most cases. (Check with the
magistrate on that). Worth the try. He may be doing something ilegal
if he has no license or tax certificate. Check your local government
jurisdiction. Some areas allow work without license, some do not.

Good luck.

Stretch

I see this statement made pretty often, but I frankly don't understand it.
I think it's kind of an urban myth
that the customer "should" pay anything up front.
I've been using all the usual subs for 30 years in doing full property
rehabs and development
and I've never had to pay anything up front. In cases of very high material
cost, I have a few times paid for
the material once on my property.
In this area, contractors can cover their risk with property liens.
In terms of reputable contractors, I have never even had one ask for upfront
money.

bill

"Dr. Hardcrab" wrote in message
news:f_Yof.5638$aU4.2567@trnddc06...

Most contractors require a downpayment before starting a project.

why so hostile??
getting a little claustraphobic in that trailer home?


bill


"Dan C" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 08:00:17 -0800, Lesley wrote:

In late November I hired a guy to shovel my driveway for the 2005-06

You're an ignorant bitch who deserves what you got. Smarten up and buy a
****ing snowblower or something.

--
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:05:06 +0000, Red Neckerson wrote:

Tell your mom I said hi.....

Tell your wife I'm gonna insist on the anal, next time.

Don't have a wife, but I'm sure she wouldn't want you after you've been
doing your Dad.....

Oh, that's a great comeback.

FOAD, idiot. Don't bother replying.

--
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951

I hope you got a written contract. Otherwise there is little you can
do other than beat the crap out of the guy. DO NOT give him more
money.

With that said, you really are posting to the wrong newsgroup.
Take this to one of the newsgroups with the word "legal" in the name.

---------------

On 17 Dec 2005 08:00:17 -0800, "Lesley" wrote:

In late November I hired a guy to shovel my driveway for the 2005-06
winter season. I live southeast of Buffalo, NY so it snows quite a
bit. He first quoted me $250, and then he changed it to $300 when he
saw that my driveway was longer than average. I agreed to pay $300,
and I agreed to give him $150 up front and the balance in January.
Last weekend he showed up unannounced asking for the balance. He
really caught me off guard, and I had company and didn't want to get
into an argument, so I just paid him. Meanwhile, it has snowed a
couple of times since I gave him the first installment and he only
showed up once to shovel my driveway/sidewalk. But since the snow
wasn't too deep, I let it go. I know the snow was deep enough to
shovel because he shoveled the driveway/sidewalk across the street (he
works for them too). Now today he shows up (and we had some lake
effect snow last night) and he wants more money. He says that I have a
really long driveway and I should pay him more money. I tell him very
nicely that I understand he has a business, but that I agreed to pay
$300 and that is all I am willing to pay, and if he feels that it is
not adequate, he can refund the rest of the money I already paid him
and I'll find someone else. He says, let's talk about this again when
I finish your driveway, and then he goes out to shovel. While he's out
there I'm inside steaming because this is the second person who has
done something like this to me (the first was a drywaller who quoted me
one price and then demanded more money after he had done just enough
work in the room to make it impossible for me to scrap the whole job).
But I decided that I wanted to be reasonable, so I decided that I would
agree to pay him more money under two conditions: First, he would do
my driveway so that I can leave the house by 8:00am on weekdays (the
two times he showed up he didn't even get here until after 9) and
second I would pay him the new balance due some time in February. Well
he had a fit. He wanted the money now. He said that my driveway is a
lot of work and he's very trustworthy and it's not like he won't show
up if I pay him now. I said I've already paid you $300 and you've
shoveled my driveway twice. Even if I agree that it's worth more than
$300 for the whole year (and I don't necessarily agree on that) I do
NOT agree that the balance is due NOW. How the heck does he figure I
should pay him another couple hundred dollars NOW???

I have definitely learned my lesson this time. I'm not hiring anyone
to do anything anymore if I have to pay them a deposit up front.
People can really suck sometimes. I don't know if these guys would do
this to me if I had a husband or boyfriend living here with me who
could deal with these kinds of things, but I tend to think not. I can
probably kiss my $300 goodbye. He probably won't show up to shovel
anymore, and I guess that's what I deserve for paying him up front.
The only reason I even trusted this guy was because I watched him LAST
YEAR do the shoveling for the people across the street, and he was very
reliable. But I guess reliability isn't everything.

Lesley

Never pay anyone up front if it's in any way possible. Most of these
'people' out there are untrustworthy morons. We had a guy in to lay
laminate flooring a couple of weeks back. He ripped up the carpet, and
started leveling the floor with cement. The last thing we heard of hime was
when he said he'd be back at 9.00AM the next day to lay the floor. The good
thing was, we hadn't paid him a cent - but we were left with a concrete
floor for two weeks.

Actually, just as the 'man' said (the one who called me an ignorant
bitch), I'm pretty much just venting here; wasn't looking for legal
advice because I know there's no way to deal within the legal system
with this kind of guy. I also wanted to hear what people had to say
about paying up front. Some of you say I should expect to do it, some
of you insist it shouldn't be necessary. The two contractors I've used
successfully for a number of jobs only asked for anything up front when
one of them had to buy a chain link gate and a storm door that I asked
him to install. He asked me to pay for those up front, which I happily
did. My other contractor wouldn't even take payment right after he
finished the job--he insisted on sending me a bill and having me pay
the bill!
Still, I understand the concept of paying up front as a good faith
gesture. It's just that I don't seem to be getting any such gestures
back from these guys who insist on getting paid up front.

Probably for every good contractor out there who insists on money up
front, there is one who doesn't. I just have to find those. I don't
mind paying for jobs up front when specific materials are involved, but
when it's just labor (or substantially labor), what about THEM trusting
ME as a gesture of good faith for a change?!?

Best,

Lesley

"Dan C" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:05:06 +0000, Red Neckerson wrote:

Tell your mom I said hi.....

Tell your wife I'm gonna insist on the anal, next time.

Don't have a wife, but I'm sure she wouldn't want you after you've been
doing your Dad.....

Oh, that's a great comeback.

Hey! Your Dad is the one with come on his back.....

"rider89" wrote

I see this statement made pretty often, but I frankly don't understand it.
I think it's kind of an urban myth
that the customer "should" pay anything up front.
I've been using all the usual subs for 30 years in doing full property
rehabs and development
and I've never had to pay anything up front. In cases of very high
material cost, I have a few times paid for
the material once on my property.
In this area, contractors can cover their risk with property liens.
In terms of reputable contractors, I have never even had one ask for
upfront money.
bill

rant on. And not necessarily aimed at you

So you are saying I should get NO money up front, show up at someone's house
with $3500 worth of equipment, install it, get it up and running and then I
am supposed to sit back and wait for the customer to pay me when they feel
like it? I know of VERY FEW companies that will do that.

We write up a proposal/contract (and, yes, with all of the fine print and
legal mumbo-jumbo) that requires a signature and 1/3 down in order to even
ORDER the equipment for the job. Then the balance is to be paid according to
their credit history with us. They may get billed for the balance, they may
have to pay it on the spot, or sometimes we spread the balance out over 12
months (with no interest. Call us crazy, but we do).

I understand what you are saying. There are plenty of unscrupulous
contractors out there that will either take your money and run OR do a
sub-par job and leave you with a mess. But how many deadbeat customers do
you think are out there??!! I should just take money out of MY pocket, buy
the equipment (and install it) and then HOPE that they will pay me back???
It DOES happen. And don't tell me "Well, companies can write that loss off."
Yeah! I got the money and time to get a lawyer and take someone to court.

We are booked up until the 3rd week in January so we are not hurting for
business. If you want a job done (right now), you'll have to wait AND you
will have to pay me 1/3 up front or you can go somewhere else.

rant off



"Dr. Hardcrab" wrote in message
news:f_Yof.5638$aU4.2567@trnddc06...

Most contractors require a downpayment before starting a project.

I understand your position, but all I'm telling you is what has been the
case here.
It may be a difference in community, in that the vendors and customers
know about each other pretty well and in my case (and most other property
guys I know), I have always paid 100% immediately at completion.
I'm talking about projects that are wrapped up within a few days (roofing,
flatwork, footings, siding, windows, hvac).
If you can stay booked up with your conditions and only $3500 worth of
equipment, more power to you.

bill


"Dr. Hardcrab" wrote in message
news:Mxdpf.4087$7f3.1229@trnddc01...

So you are saying I should get NO money up front, show up at someone's
house with $3500 worth of equipment, install it, get it up and running and
then I am supposed to sit back and wait for the customer to pay me when
they feel like it? I know of VERY FEW companies that will do that.


We are booked up until the 3rd week in January so we are not hurting for
business. If you want a job done (right now), you'll have to wait AND you
will have to pay me 1/3 up front or you can go somewhere else.

"Dr. Hardcrab" wrote in message
news:f_Yof.5638$aU4.2567@trnddc06...

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:32:28 GMT, "Dr. Hardcrab"
scribbled this interesting note:


So you are saying I should get NO money up front, show up at someone's house
with $3500 worth of equipment, install it, get it up and running and then I
am supposed to sit back and wait for the customer to pay me when they feel
like it? I know of VERY FEW companies that will do that.


That's the way it works with us and our contractors, as well as for
those we contract to do work for-with one exception: To be Paid Upon
Completion. And there are no exceptions. Thus far, with more than
several decades of experience hiring contractors and being a
contractor, we've never not paid anyone, and we've never had any one
not pay us.

It can and does work that way.


--
John Willis

(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

I need some verification here.

Is this man a contractor or just a snow shoveler?

If this man is a contractor, the OP probably has recourse through agencies
in their own state. My state considers it a felony to contract without a
license, and they actively and vigorously pursue people who violate that
law.

Or, was this person just some rummie who was hired to shovel snow? If that
is the case, agreements are worth the paper they're written on. He said,
she said. Small claims court? Well, did you get it in writing? Did you
get a receipt/cancelled check? If you get a judgement, do you have a bank
account number that they can get it from? You can win a case, but never get
paid.

Sounds like a lesson learned about being stupid with money and hiring
someone to do work.

Paying in advance before the work is done!

I only know one type of workman who charges like that on a regular basis.

Steve

"Lesley" wrote in message
ps.com...
Actually, just as the 'man' said (the one who called me an ignorant
bitch), I'm pretty much just venting here;

You must understand that Dan C is just a boy who is left alone a lot by his
strolling mommy ...

wasn't looking for legal
advice because I know there's no way to deal within the legal system
with this kind of guy.

Legally, you are screwed. You can get a judgement in small claims, but it
is only good for toilet paper and fire starter.

I also wanted to hear what people had to say
about paying up front.

I am mixed up. Is this man a CONTRACTOR? If so, you should have recourse
through your own state's agencies. What he is doing is illegal. In our
state, this would be a felony.

Some of you say I should expect to do it, some
of you insist it shouldn't be necessary.

It's the deal YOU make. If some workman doesn't like your terms, find
another.

The two contractors I've used
successfully for a number of jobs only asked for anything up front when
one of them had to buy a chain link gate and a storm door that I asked
him to install.

See. Every deal and workman is different.

He asked me to pay for those up front, which I happily
did. My other contractor wouldn't even take payment right after he
finished the job--he insisted on sending me a bill and having me pay
the bill!

Now, that man is a real contractor. Invoicing you, having a check from you
as proof of payment.

Still, I understand the concept of paying up front as a good faith
gesture.

No, it's not good faith. It's some slimeball whispering in your ear, "Trust
me."

It's just that I don't seem to be getting any such gestures
back from these guys who insist on getting paid up front.

Probably for every good contractor out there who insists on money up
front, there is one who doesn't. I just have to find those. I don't
mind paying for jobs up front when specific materials are involved, but
when it's just labor (or substantially labor), what about THEM trusting
ME as a gesture of good faith for a change?!?

Best,

Lesley



Ask the men for their licenses, and for their insurance company to mail you
DIRECT a copy of their liability insurance and worker's comp. That will
separate the real contractors from the slimeballs.

You still call these men contractors, and some of them are not. A real
contractor has licenses. He has insurance. He is bonded to finish the job.
A real contractor will whip these out or have their insurance companies mail
you certificates. DO NOT accept any insurance certificate they provide,
only those mailed DIRECTLY to you. Insurance certs are easily created or
copied. All the others are slimeballs who are at the same time are
whispering, "Trust me", and sliding their hand down your pants.

Steve, an ex steel erection contractor in the State of Nevada

I guess I'm a bit lost. He bid to clear your drive and walk for
250/300 for the entire snow season regardless of the number of
storms? If it snowed 10 times, he made decent money assuming he
can do it in less than an hour. At 20 times it doesn't sound good
for him. I've seen pictures of some of your snow storms. I
wouldn't want to try to shovel the snow high enough to get it off
the drive, especially after last week's pile. I just don't
understand anyone agreeing to an unlimited number of snow
shovelings. A set fee per time makes more sense to me.

How do kids make "coke money" now days? I don't happen to live
where snow is an issue anymore.

(top posted for your convenience)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"Lesley" wrote in message
oups.com...
In late November I hired a guy to shovel my driveway for the
2005-06
winter season. I live southeast of Buffalo, NY so it snows
quite a
bit. He first quoted me $250, and then he changed it to $300
when he
saw that my driveway was longer than average. I agreed to pay
$300,
and I agreed to give him $150 up front and the balance in
January.
Last weekend he showed up unannounced asking for the balance.
He
really caught me off guard, and I had company and didn't want to
get
into an argument, so I just paid him. Meanwhile, it has snowed
a
couple of times since I gave him the first installment and he
only
showed up once to shovel my driveway/sidewalk. But since the
snow
wasn't too deep, I let it go. I know the snow was deep enough
to
shovel because he shoveled the driveway/sidewalk across the
street (he
works for them too). Now today he shows up (and we had some
lake
effect snow last night) and he wants more money. He says that I
have a
really long driveway and I should pay him more money. I tell
him very
nicely that I understand he has a business, but that I agreed to
pay
$300 and that is all I am willing to pay, and if he feels that
it is
not adequate, he can refund the rest of the money I already paid
him
and I'll find someone else. He says, let's talk about this
again when
I finish your driveway, and then he goes out to shovel. While
he's out
there I'm inside steaming because this is the second person who
has
done something like this to me (the first was a drywaller who
quoted me
one price and then demanded more money after he had done just
enough
work in the room to make it impossible for me to scrap the whole
job).
But I decided that I wanted to be reasonable, so I decided that
I would
agree to pay him more money under two conditions: First, he
would do
my driveway so that I can leave the house by 8:00am on weekdays
(the
two times he showed up he didn't even get here until after 9)
and
second I would pay him the new balance due some time in
February. Well
he had a fit. He wanted the money now. He said that my
driveway is a
lot of work and he's very trustworthy and it's not like he won't
show
up if I pay him now. I said I've already paid you $300 and
you've
shoveled my driveway twice. Even if I agree that it's worth
more than
$300 for the whole year (and I don't necessarily agree on that)
I do
NOT agree that the balance is due NOW. How the heck does he
figure I
should pay him another couple hundred dollars NOW???

I have definitely learned my lesson this time. I'm not hiring
anyone
to do anything anymore if I have to pay them a deposit up front.
People can really suck sometimes. I don't know if these guys
would do
this to me if I had a husband or boyfriend living here with me
who
could deal with these kinds of things, but I tend to think not.
I can
probably kiss my $300 goodbye. He probably won't show up to
shovel
anymore, and I guess that's what I deserve for paying him up
front.
The only reason I even trusted this guy was because I watched
him LAST
YEAR do the shoveling for the people across the street, and he
was very
reliable. But I guess reliability isn't everything.

Lesley

A prostitute?

Actually, a lot of snow removal contractors do that here. Ever since I
moved here a couple of years ago I have only seen it done this way.
They quote you one amount no matter how much it snows. And, if it
hardly snows at all, you still have paid the same amount.

My driveway is pretty long and narrow. Last year I hired someone with
a plow and I had to pay one amount for the whole year, except that it
became clear right off the bat that his plow was too wide to fit down
my driveway. He would only go halfway and a couple of times he
actually plowed my driveway while my vehicle was in it, so now I had a
pile of snow behind my car and of course lots of snow between the front
of my car and my garage. It was a disaster. I've been looking and
looking for someone with a smaller plow but no one who plows around
here seems to have one. So I decided to go with a guy who shovels
instead of plows. I guess I can't really call him a contractor. He
shovels in the winter and does landscaping in the summer--mowing lawns,
trimming shrubs, does spring and fall yard cleanups, stuff like that.
He also said he does something with concrete in the summer. . .

Anyhoo, I appreciate everyone's input. . .

Lesley

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:58:36 -0600, "DanG" wrote:

How do kids make "coke money" now days?

They might make a deal to shovel snow for a season, take a deposit and
when they find the price of the coke habit has gone up they demand
more money up front. A local "day labor" office can provide "labor"
from ex-cons, etc... and even provide worker's compensation - you pay
the office and they pay the labor (a pay as it snows plan).

I agree with the OP... it prolly would be different it a husband or
boy friend would of made the deal. Not to say the results would have
been any better, though!

Oren

"My doctor says I have a malformed public-duty gland
and a natural deficiency in moral fiber, and that I am therefore
excused from saving Universes."