Got a letter today from the VP of the Management for our site condos
today. Almost every year we have to patch about 1/2 mile or so of road
from pot holes. The roads are not heavily travelled, and only used by
our sub, and while the pot holes were a nuisance, the road is only 15
mph.

The letter states that the board had conferred with several asphalt
contrators who have concluded that the road was "originally installed
an an incorrect pitch with much of the base comprised of grey wet
clay". The board had decided to tear out a good portion of the road,
and the estimated cost was $225,000. Our dues are to go up from
$75/month to almost $300 from jan to apr, then back down to $80 after
that.

What can be done to stop this? I find it ridiculous that even if there
is an underlying problem, the cost to repair the road this year was
$5500. At that rate, we could repair the road for 41 years for the
cost of replacement. This even assumes that the new road wouldn't even
have to have repairs in that time, which is probably impossible.

Larry Bud wrote:
Got a letter today from the VP of the Management for our site condos
today. Almost every year we have to patch about 1/2 mile or so of
road from pot holes. The roads are not heavily travelled, and only
used by our sub, and while the pot holes were a nuisance, the road is
only 15 mph.

The letter states that the board had conferred with several asphalt
contrators who have concluded that the road was "originally installed
an an incorrect pitch with much of the base comprised of grey wet
clay". The board had decided to tear out a good portion of the road,
and the estimated cost was $225,000. Our dues are to go up from
$75/month to almost $300 from jan to apr, then back down to $80 after
that.

What can be done to stop this? I find it ridiculous that even if
there is an underlying problem, the cost to repair the road this year
was $5500. At that rate, we could repair the road for 41 years for
the cost of replacement. This even assumes that the new road
wouldn't even have to have repairs in that time, which is probably
impossible.

Most likely the contractor is a close relative of a board member.

Check your association's by-laws. Maybe a petition, recall election, or
other remedy for a rogue board is provided. You'll have to have at hand a
copy of the by-laws when you visit your attorney anyway.

"What can be done to stop this? "

Have you been to board meetings to voice your opinion? Have you talked
to the board members and asked them why they believe this is necessary
or how they can cost justify it? There could be more to it than you
think, as boards usually aren't too quick to approve things that cause
a special assessment, if they can help it. If there is a significant
underlying problem, patching will only get you so far. The patched
areas are not as strong as the original pavement and will not last as
long as the original. At some point, you will have so many patchs that
it will have to be addressed. You may be right that it is better to
put it off for awhile, if it is in fact only costing $5500 a year to
patch and it doesn't look like hell.

What do your neighbors think? First thing I would do is find out from
a board member or property manager if a contract has already been
signed. If it has, from a practical standpoint there isn't much you
can probably do to stop it. Virtually every board has the power to
undertake this kind of repair. And unless there is something
underhanded going on, like self dealing, courts are unwilling to get
involved in business decisions, even if a better decision could have
been made. If they haven't signed a contract yet, then I'd get a hold
of the board members, make your opposition known and get neighbors to
the next meeting before a contract is signed.

Larry Bud wrote:
Got a letter today from the VP of the Management for our site condos
today. Almost every year we have to patch about 1/2 mile or so of road
from pot holes. The roads are not heavily travelled, and only used by
our sub, and while the pot holes were a nuisance, the road is only 15
mph.


I agree, sounds like nepitism or similiar.

On 8 Dec 2005 14:32:28 -0800, "Larry Bud"
wrote:

Got a letter today from the VP of the Management for our site condos
today. Almost every year we have to patch about 1/2 mile or so of road
from pot holes. The roads are not heavily travelled, and only used by
our sub, and while the pot holes were a nuisance, the road is only 15
mph.

The letter states that the board had conferred with several asphalt
contrators who have concluded that the road was "originally installed
an an incorrect pitch with much of the base comprised of grey wet
clay". The board had decided to tear out a good portion of the road,
and the estimated cost was $225,000. Our dues are to go up from
$75/month to almost $300 from jan to apr, then back down to $80 after
that.

What can be done to stop this? I find it ridiculous that even if there
is an underlying problem, the cost to repair the road this year was
$5500. At that rate, we could repair the road for 41 years for the
cost of replacement. This even assumes that the new road wouldn't even
have to have repairs in that time, which is probably impossible.

Audit the money trail..... consult the local state statues regarding
your HOA, run for office or otherwise!. A columnist for our local
paper writes about these issues, do you have one? If so contact them.

Normally, HOA dues go up with notice, not malfeasants - /\0-0/\


Oren
"My doctor says I have a malformed public-duty gland
and a natural deficiency in moral fiber, and that I am therefore
excused from saving Universes."

"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
Larry Bud wrote:
Got a letter today from the VP of the Management for our site condos
today. Almost every year we have to patch about 1/2 mile or so of
road from pot holes. The roads are not heavily travelled, and only
used by our sub, and while the pot holes were a nuisance, the road is
only 15 mph.

The letter states that the board had conferred with several asphalt
contrators who have concluded that the road was "originally installed
an an incorrect pitch with much of the base comprised of grey wet
clay". The board had decided to tear out a good portion of the road,
and the estimated cost was $225,000. Our dues are to go up from
$75/month to almost $300 from jan to apr, then back down to $80 after
that.

What can be done to stop this? I find it ridiculous that even if
there is an underlying problem, the cost to repair the road this year
was $5500. At that rate, we could repair the road for 41 years for
the cost of replacement. This even assumes that the new road
wouldn't even have to have repairs in that time, which is probably
impossible.

Most likely the contractor is a close relative of a board member.

Check your association's by-laws. Maybe a petition, recall election, or
other remedy for a rogue board is provided. You'll have to have at hand a
copy of the by-laws when you visit your attorney anyway.


I have seen some of the regs for such a development which forbids legal
action by its members : ( Hope yours is not like that.

"Larry Bud" wrote in message
oups.com...
Got a letter today from the VP of the Management for our site condos
today. Almost every year we have to patch about 1/2 mile or so of road
from pot holes. The roads are not heavily travelled, and only used by
our sub, and while the pot holes were a nuisance, the road is only 15
mph.

The letter states that the board had conferred with several asphalt
contrators who have concluded that the road was "originally installed
an an incorrect pitch with much of the base comprised of grey wet
clay". The board had decided to tear out a good portion of the road,
and the estimated cost was $225,000. Our dues are to go up from
$75/month to almost $300 from jan to apr, then back down to $80 after
that.

What can be done to stop this? I find it ridiculous that even if there
is an underlying problem, the cost to repair the road this year was
$5500. At that rate, we could repair the road for 41 years for the
cost of replacement. This even assumes that the new road wouldn't even
have to have repairs in that time, which is probably impossible.


Other have said something like this. I will try to say it clearer.

You need to check your bylaws. What the board is suggesting comes under the
term capital expenditures. In my HOA the board is authorized to contract for
normal expenditures already approved and to raise the HOA fee IF necessary
to cover those expenses.

Capital expenditures for new projects requires a 75% majority vote of the
entire association or a simple majority where 60% of the members are
attending the meeting. The easiest way to vote against a popular concept is
to not attend. It is real hard for them to bet 60% of the owners in one
place at one time. (BG)

Again it all comes down to what your bylaws say.

Colbyt

"Larry Bud" wrote in message
oups.com...
Got a letter today from the VP of the Management for our site condos
today. Almost every year we have to patch about 1/2 mile or so of road
from pot holes. The roads are not heavily travelled, and only used by
our sub, and while the pot holes were a nuisance, the road is only 15
mph.

The letter states that the board had conferred with several asphalt
contrators who have concluded that the road was "originally installed
an an incorrect pitch with much of the base comprised of grey wet
clay". The board had decided to tear out a good portion of the road,
and the estimated cost was $225,000. Our dues are to go up from
$75/month to almost $300 from jan to apr, then back down to $80 after
that.

What can be done to stop this? I find it ridiculous that even if there
is an underlying problem, the cost to repair the road this year was
$5500. At that rate, we could repair the road for 41 years for the
cost of replacement. This even assumes that the new road wouldn't even
have to have repairs in that time, which is probably impossible.


1-800-TonySoprano

"Larry Bud" wrote in message
oups.com...
Got a letter today from the VP of the Management for our site condos
today. Almost every year we have to patch about 1/2 mile or so of road
from pot holes. The roads are not heavily travelled, and only used by
our sub, and while the pot holes were a nuisance, the road is only 15
mph.

The letter states that the board had conferred with several asphalt
contrators who have concluded that the road was "originally installed
an an incorrect pitch with much of the base comprised of grey wet
clay". The board had decided to tear out a good portion of the road,
and the estimated cost was $225,000. Our dues are to go up from
$75/month to almost $300 from jan to apr, then back down to $80 after
that.

What can be done to stop this? I find it ridiculous that even if there
is an underlying problem, the cost to repair the road this year was
$5500. At that rate, we could repair the road for 41 years for the
cost of replacement. This even assumes that the new road wouldn't even
have to have repairs in that time, which is probably impossible.

It may be that all of the properties in your association are devalued by the
constant problem with potholes. That kind of thing runs off prospective
buyers.

It may be that they would like to deal with the problem this one time and be
done with it.

Anyway, I'd suggest talking with the management association and figuring out
exactly why they want to spend this much of your money. Maybe you'll agree
with their logic - those people are *usually* not out to screw the tenants.
If you don't agree with their logic, maybe you can reason with them. Beyond
that, maybe you have legal recourse. In my old association, you could vote
the board out of office and the bylaws didn't allow a big increase such as
you describe without a passing vote from a quorum of the association.

Good luck getting the right solution.

clipped
What can be done to stop this? I find it ridiculous that even if
there is an underlying problem, the cost to repair the road this year
was $5500. At that rate, we could repair the road for 41 years for
the cost of replacement. This even assumes that the new road
wouldn't even have to have repairs in that time, which is probably
impossible.


Most likely the contractor is a close relative of a board member.

Check your association's by-laws. Maybe a petition, recall election, or
other remedy for a rogue board is provided. You'll have to have at hand a
copy of the by-laws when you visit your attorney anyway.



That is basicly it. Read your documents. If it is a very unpopular
decision, you might be able to recall the board members and elect a new
board. Board has a duty to maintain the property. A possible, but very
doubtful, out is whether this could be considered a "material
alteration" and require consent by a majority of owners and not just
board members. Don't feel too bad .. our monthly assessment is $285
every month. No roads to pave ) Read your state statute HOA.
Florida has separate statutes for condos and for HOA's.

clipped

You need to check your bylaws. What the board is suggesting comes under the
term capital expenditures. In my HOA the board is authorized to contract for
normal expenditures already approved and to raise the HOA fee IF necessary
to cover those expenses.

Capital expenditures for new projects requires a 75% majority vote of the
entire association or a simple majority where 60% of the members are
attending the meeting. The easiest way to vote against a popular concept is
to not attend. It is real hard for them to bet 60% of the owners in one
place at one time. (BG)

Again it all comes down to what your bylaws say.

Colbyt


In Florida, the board has to maintain the property and can vote any size
special assessment. To make a material alteration, it take a majority
of owners. The board can maintain or repair the pool on it's own vote.
But if they want to put a pool where there is none, that is a material
alteration. Board members in Florida can be held personally liable for
failing to maintain. If your board is hearing complaints because autos
are damaged from hitting pot holes, then the repave is likely justified.

On 8 Dec 2005 14:32:28 -0800, "Larry Bud"
wrote:

Got a letter today from the VP of the Management for our site condos
today. Almost every year we have to patch about 1/2 mile or so of road
from pot holes. The roads are not heavily travelled, and only used by
our sub, and while the pot holes were a nuisance, the road is only 15
mph.

The letter states that the board had conferred with several asphalt
contrators who have concluded that the road was "originally installed
an an incorrect pitch with much of the base comprised of grey wet
clay". The board had decided to tear out a good portion of the road,
and the estimated cost was $225,000. Our dues are to go up from
$75/month to almost $300 from jan to apr, then back down to $80 after
that.

What can be done to stop this? I find it ridiculous that even if there
is an underlying problem, the cost to repair the road this year was
$5500. At that rate, we could repair the road for 41 years for the
cost of replacement. This even assumes that the new road wouldn't even
have to have repairs in that time, which is probably impossible.

Sounds idiotic to me, but idiocy is a requirement for many HOAs.
After the board is elected, they get rendition to a foreign country
where special agents teach them to be stupid.

My friend's condo board in NYC tuck pointed a windowless wall, and
then tested it by spraying water on the wall (instead of just waiting
for tit to rain.) Now my friend has pealing paint and wet plaster in
the bedroom that won't dry.

My HOA thinks it has to patch every crack, for legal reasons, even the
ones that no one could actually trip on. But they hire cheap workman
to do the patches.


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 17:54:07 -0600, "Mike Dobony"
wrote:


"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
Larry Bud wrote:
Got a letter today from the VP of the Management for our site condos
today. Almost every year we have to patch about 1/2 mile or so of
road from pot holes. The roads are not heavily travelled, and only
used by our sub, and while the pot holes were a nuisance, the road is
only 15 mph.

The letter states that the board had conferred with several asphalt
contrators who have concluded that the road was "originally installed
an an incorrect pitch with much of the base comprised of grey wet
clay". The board had decided to tear out a good portion of the road,
and the estimated cost was $225,000. Our dues are to go up from
$75/month to almost $300 from jan to apr, then back down to $80 after
that.

What can be done to stop this? I find it ridiculous that even if
there is an underlying problem, the cost to repair the road this year
was $5500. At that rate, we could repair the road for 41 years for
the cost of replacement. This even assumes that the new road
wouldn't even have to have repairs in that time, which is probably
impossible.

Most likely the contractor is a close relative of a board member.

Check your association's by-laws. Maybe a petition, recall election, or
other remedy for a rogue board is provided. You'll have to have at hand a
copy of the by-laws when you visit your attorney anyway.


I have seen some of the regs for such a development which forbids legal
action by its members : ( Hope yours is not like that.

I hope not also.

I actually sued my HOA to get an affirmative injunction to make them
pay the dues on the swimming pool next door.

I couldn't afford an attorney, so I did it myself, based on my 2 years
in law schoo, and the help of the clerks in the Country Clerk's
office.

The other side had an attorney of course paid for by the HOA's
directors and xxx insurance policy.

As badly as I did, you'll do worse without any law school. I did
well in the first round but had major trouble in the second.

Also I had a clause in the bylaws that seemed toimply they had to pay
the dues, and I had evidence they had intentionally miscounted the
votes during the intervening election for board memebers.. You don't
have that.

MY friends in NYC had 2 votes of 9 on their side, and when I left
Sunday afternoon, they were expecting two more board members for
dinner, at which they were going to try to convince htem to stop
water-testing the wall. iirc. With 4 votes, they thought the
president of the condo board was a reasonable guy and he would vote
with them. I have to check what happend.

But I think invitign the board members to dinner, one or two at a
time, would be a good idea. You don't have to advertise these
invitations to other people, but don't hide or lie about them either.
You will be found out.

We own our own streets and would like to give them to the county so
that they would be responsible, but the county won't take them because
there isn't a sufficientyly thick base, iiuc. I don't know if our
periodic resurfacing (black top) is doing anything to increase the
base, or we'll just own them forever. If it were your board they'd
probably want to dig the whole thing up and start all over again. I
can't remember what a total repave cost 10 years ago. It was either 10
thousand or a 100 thousand, Must have been 100. About 5 medium
length blocks with parking on both sides.

Some paving companies just want to sell. Get another opinion from a
reputable company or two.






Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 02:08:53 GMT, Norminn
wrote:

Florida has separate statutes for condos and for HOA's.

Maryland too, although the HOA law is slim and regular corporation
law applies when the HOA law is silent.


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

I also think they are repaving it to help maintain bloated real estate
values in the complex, and Id be OK with it. And this thread is
useless without pics.

All the more reason not to live in a condo or HOA. I'd rather live in
a tree or a cave.-Jitney

According to Larry Bud :

What can be done to stop this? I find it ridiculous that even if there
is an underlying problem, the cost to repair the road this year was
$5500. At that rate, we could repair the road for 41 years for the
cost of replacement. This even assumes that the new road wouldn't even
have to have repairs in that time, which is probably impossible.

Before you go ballistic on them, lawsuits etcetera, _ask_ them why
they think they have to do the $225,000 version.

If the base is bad enough, without fixing is, your yearly
repair costs could easily jump substantially each year as
the road gets progressively worse. The breakeven point might
be a _lot_ less than 41 years.

A poor base can get well beyond a mere $5500 worth of pothole
repair per year. Washouts, road collapse, etc.

HOAs/condo boards have to pay dues too. They're not going to
do something like that without a damn good reason - ie: engineers
telling them that the whole road is sinking.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

clipped

HOAs/condo boards have to pay dues too. They're not going to
do something like that without a damn good reason - ie: engineers
telling them that the whole road is sinking.

The board members I know are penny-wise and pound-foolish. I know
people who rely on any sales person as an expert, rather than
researching issues. I have seen amazing waste with people who quibble
over a bag of fertilizer.

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Larry Bud :

What can be done to stop this? I find it ridiculous that even if there
is an underlying problem, the cost to repair the road this year was
$5500. At that rate, we could repair the road for 41 years for the
cost of replacement. This even assumes that the new road wouldn't even
have to have repairs in that time, which is probably impossible.

Before you go ballistic on them, lawsuits etcetera, _ask_ them why
they think they have to do the $225,000 version.

If the base is bad enough, without fixing is, your yearly
repair costs could easily jump substantially each year as
the road gets progressively worse. The breakeven point might
be a _lot_ less than 41 years.

A poor base can get well beyond a mere $5500 worth of pothole
repair per year. Washouts, road collapse, etc.

HOAs/condo boards have to pay dues too. They're not going to
do something like that without a damn good reason - ie: engineers
telling them that the whole road is sinking.


Ya they may pay dues but some just listen to the management companies.

I sat on a board for 6 months. When I came up with away to stop using $10k a
month for water and a way to reduce the landscaping contract from $7500 a
month to $2300 a month. You would have thought that I was raping their 15
year old daughter on TV.
I solved the problem and moved.

Larry, besides the HOA documents there can be a big impact by state laws.
Since you did not specify the state and did not describe the property,
(condo, coop, or individually owned) all the answers that you have so far
are meaningless.

Charlie

"Larry Bud" wrote in message
oups.com...
Got a letter today from the VP of the Management for our site condos
today. Almost every year we have to patch about 1/2 mile or so of road
from pot holes. The roads are not heavily travelled, and only used by
our sub, and while the pot holes were a nuisance, the road is only 15
mph.

The letter states that the board had conferred with several asphalt
contrators who have concluded that the road was "originally installed
an an incorrect pitch with much of the base comprised of grey wet
clay". The board had decided to tear out a good portion of the road,
and the estimated cost was $225,000. Our dues are to go up from
$75/month to almost $300 from jan to apr, then back down to $80 after
that.

What can be done to stop this? I find it ridiculous that even if there
is an underlying problem, the cost to repair the road this year was
$5500. At that rate, we could repair the road for 41 years for the
cost of replacement. This even assumes that the new road wouldn't even
have to have repairs in that time, which is probably impossible.

"Larry, besides the HOA documents there can be a big impact by state
laws.
Since you did not specify the state and did not describe the property,
(condo, coop, or individually owned) all the answers that you have so
far
are meaningless. "

Not very likely. Do you know of any state where a condo board is
restricted by law from making repairs to the property that they deem
necessary? State law typically calls for things like open meetings,
access to records and the like, but doesn't get involved in what are
business decisions.

wrote:

"Larry, besides the HOA documents there can be a big impact by state
laws.
Since you did not specify the state and did not describe the property,
(condo, coop, or individually owned) all the answers that you have so
far
are meaningless. "

Not very likely. Do you know of any state where a condo board is
restricted by law from making repairs to the property that they deem
necessary? State law typically calls for things like open meetings,
access to records and the like, but doesn't get involved in what are
business decisions.

It can be tricky. There is, I believe, a percent limit on how much a
condo assn. in Florida can raise it's budget, but no limit I know of on
"special assessments". There have been a couple of large HOA's in FL
with major construction defects not discovered for several years and
requiring repairs that approached purchase price of homes. Same builder
has a condo in my area with major construction flaws, discovered much
sooner. About 4 years old, has had tarps and scaffolding all over it
for about the past year. Their condo board president is an attorney )
I hope they take that particular builder to the cleaners and leave
him there, naked.

On 9 Dec 2005 08:52:17 -0800, wrote:

All the more reason not to live in a condo or HOA. I'd rather live in
a tree or a cave.-Jitney

In Maryland, if the builder develops more than x number of caves,
there has to be an HOA. It doesn't have to meet but there has to be
one.

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

In article , SQLit says...


"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Larry Bud :

What can be done to stop this? I find it ridiculous that even if there
is an underlying problem, the cost to repair the road this year was
$5500. At that rate, we could repair the road for 41 years for the
cost of replacement. This even assumes that the new road wouldn't even
have to have repairs in that time, which is probably impossible.

Before you go ballistic on them, lawsuits etcetera, _ask_ them why
they think they have to do the $225,000 version.

If the base is bad enough, without fixing is, your yearly
repair costs could easily jump substantially each year as
the road gets progressively worse. The breakeven point might
be a _lot_ less than 41 years.

A poor base can get well beyond a mere $5500 worth of pothole
repair per year. Washouts, road collapse, etc.

HOAs/condo boards have to pay dues too. They're not going to
do something like that without a damn good reason - ie: engineers
telling them that the whole road is sinking.


Ya they may pay dues but some just listen to the management companies.

I sat on a board for 6 months. When I came up with away to stop using $10k a
month for water and a way to reduce the landscaping contract from $7500 a
month to $2300 a month. You would have thought that I was raping their 15
year old daughter on TV.
I solved the problem and moved.

Lemme guess - rock lawn?

Banty

clipped

Lemme guess - rock lawn?

Banty

Outlawed where I live. Florida's only industries, after Diz world, are
growing grass and killing bugs )

"Larry Bud" writes:
The letter states that the board had conferred with several asphalt
contrators who have concluded that the road was "originally installed
an an incorrect pitch with much of the base comprised of grey wet
clay".
Um... there is one solution I havn't seen mentioned.

Were there specs for the original job? Were they met?
Did they include something about doing the job right?
Is the original contractor judgement proof?

(or was the road preexisting to the development.... didn't sound like
it since you said it was only used by your sub.)

--
be safe.
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")

In article t, Norminn says...

clipped

Lemme guess - rock lawn?

Banty

Outlawed where I live. Florida's only industries, after Diz world, are
growing grass and killing bugs )

OK - so, what, exactly, was the improvement in practice that SQLit proposed to
his HOA board, to save all that landscaping *and* all that water cost, that
caused them to react so horribly?

SQLit?

Banty

Banty wrote:

In article t, Norminn says...

clipped

Lemme guess - rock lawn?

Banty

Outlawed where I live. Florida's only industries, after Diz world, are
growing grass and killing bugs )

OK - so, what, exactly, was the improvement in practice that SQLit proposed to
his HOA board, to save all that landscaping *and* all that water cost, that
caused them to react so horribly?

SQLit?

If I were cynical (who, me? ) I'd assume it was probably the
sweetheart deal w/ the nephew, etc., that wouldn't be renewed that was
the cause of the ruckus, not the solution itself...

In article , Duane Bozarth says...

Banty wrote:

In article t, Norminn says...

clipped

Lemme guess - rock lawn?

Banty

Outlawed where I live. Florida's only industries, after Diz world, are
growing grass and killing bugs )

OK - so, what, exactly, was the improvement in practice that SQLit proposed to
his HOA board, to save all that landscaping *and* all that water cost, that
caused them to react so horribly?

SQLit?

If I were cynical (who, me? ) I'd assume it was probably the
sweetheart deal w/ the nephew, etc., that wouldn't be renewed that was
the cause of the ruckus, not the solution itself...


Possibly. On the other hand, the Proposal That Saves Big Bucks may be that
whole segments of maintenance be blown off for a few years, at least until some
time after the Proposer sells, that taking place before the effects of the
negligence becomes visible. Seen it.

It cuts both ways.

My mental red flag gets raised when the proposal is 1. Unspecified to us, and 2.
Involves *both* landscaping costs and water costs. Unless someone on the board
has cousins both in the water district and the landscaping business??

So I get this "Paul Harvey" what's the "rest of the story" feeling about it. If
I'm left to fill in the details all by myself, my guess is - the proposal
involved some massive negligence of the grounds.

But he can surely post and clarify...

Banty (me, I'm so cynical, I don't believe either "side" of much of anything!)

Charlie Bress wrote:
Larry, besides the HOA documents there can be a big impact by state laws.
Since you did not specify the state and did not describe the property,
(condo, coop, or individually owned) all the answers that you have so far
are meaningless.

I'm in Michigan, and these are site condos.

Philip Lewis wrote:
"Larry Bud" writes:
The letter states that the board had conferred with several asphalt
contrators who have concluded that the road was "originally installed
an an incorrect pitch with much of the base comprised of grey wet
clay".
Um... there is one solution I havn't seen mentioned.

Were there specs for the original job? Were they met?
Did they include something about doing the job right?
Is the original contractor judgement proof?

(or was the road preexisting to the development.... didn't sound like
it since you said it was only used by your sub.)

The road was part of the development.

I learned a few things tonight after making a bunch of calls. Got in
touch with the only board member who opposed this thing:

1) There is nothing in the by-laws that state they have to call a
special assessment meeting for ANY expense if the money for whatever
they want to spend is in the budget for the next year, provided the
budget goes out at least 30 days before the year end. The budget was
sent out on November 30 (how convenient!). What's really scary about
this provision is that the road could have cost 10 million bucks, and
they could try to pass this off to us without any approval of the
co-owners.

2) A contract has NOT been signed, and the board will have to collect a
certain % of money before the contractor will do the work. I don't yet
know what % that is, but I believe it is over 50%. This gives us who
oppose some time to get a petition going.

3) They waited last year to fix the pot holes that formed to try and
sway people into believing the road was really a piece of ****

4) 3 of the board members live on the road that is to be replaced

5) The quote the contractor came up with is not set in stone, as
there's a provision that he can change the quote based on oil prices,
since asphalt cost goes up as oil goes up. The replacement was
supposed to happen in April, which as we all know, the cost of oil
generally goes up in the spring/summer because of travel.

6) The whole idea came about from the President of the association, and
the VP of the management company.

Can someone tell me what relation a management company has to an
association? IOW, what do they do for us?

"Larry Bud" wrote in message
ups.com...

Philip Lewis wrote:
"Larry Bud" writes:
The letter states that the board had conferred with several asphalt
contrators who have concluded that the road was "originally installed
an an incorrect pitch with much of the base comprised of grey wet
clay".
Um... there is one solution I havn't seen mentioned.

Were there specs for the original job? Were they met?
Did they include something about doing the job right?
Is the original contractor judgement proof?

(or was the road preexisting to the development.... didn't sound like
it since you said it was only used by your sub.)

The road was part of the development.

I learned a few things tonight after making a bunch of calls. Got in
touch with the only board member who opposed this thing:

1) There is nothing in the by-laws that state they have to call a
special assessment meeting for ANY expense if the money for whatever
they want to spend is in the budget for the next year, provided the
budget goes out at least 30 days before the year end. The budget was
sent out on November 30 (how convenient!). What's really scary about
this provision is that the road could have cost 10 million bucks, and
they could try to pass this off to us without any approval of the
co-owners.

The November 30 thing isn't necessarily a sign of malfeasance. That was
their deadline and they met it. I'd argue that it would have been good for
the board to have a public discussion of the situation before making such a
significant decision.


2) A contract has NOT been signed, and the board will have to collect a
certain % of money before the contractor will do the work. I don't yet
know what % that is, but I believe it is over 50%. This gives us who
oppose some time to get a petition going.

3) They waited last year to fix the pot holes that formed to try and
sway people into believing the road was really a piece of ****

4) 3 of the board members live on the road that is to be replaced

5) The quote the contractor came up with is not set in stone, as
there's a provision that he can change the quote based on oil prices,
since asphalt cost goes up as oil goes up. The replacement was
supposed to happen in April, which as we all know, the cost of oil
generally goes up in the spring/summer because of travel.

6) The whole idea came about from the President of the association, and
the VP of the management company.

Can someone tell me what relation a management company has to an
association? IOW, what do they do for us?

My experience (several years as a board member in a HOA) was that the
Management company was supposed to bulldog collections issues, monitor legal
issues, report on certain things around the neighborhood (compliance with
covenants, for instance), and offer suggestions to the board since the
management company should have more collective experience than most HOA
boards. In addition, the Management company was supposed to offer a buffer
so PO'd homeowners didn't start fistfights in the street with board members.
Of course, there is a fee associated with this, and it is substantial. In
our association, the Management company did a truly horrible job and we
fired them. If all Management companies were as bad as the one we hired, I
don't think the management company industry would last very long.

"Can someone tell me what relation a management company has to an
association? IOW, what do they do for us? "

The management company works for the association, is hired by the board
and manages the day to day operations of the condo. That includes
collecting maintenance fees, sending out late notices/fines, paying
bills, keeping the books, responding to unit owners requests for info
or maintenance, etc, soliciting bids for work that needs to be done,
recommending vendors/contractors, verifying work being done by
vendors/contractors, periodically inspecting the property and putting
up with a lot of abuse

clipped
My experience (several years as a board member in a HOA) was that the
Management company was supposed to bulldog collections issues, monitor legal
issues, report on certain things around the neighborhood (compliance with
covenants, for instance), and offer suggestions to the board since the
management company should have more collective experience than most HOA
boards. In addition, the Management company was supposed to offer a buffer
so PO'd homeowners didn't start fistfights in the street with board members.
Of course, there is a fee associated with this, and it is substantial. In
our association, the Management company did a truly horrible job and we
fired them. If all Management companies were as bad as the one we hired, I
don't think the management company industry would last very long.

I haven't followed this thread blow by blow, but mgt. companies are
worth every nickel. They can do the really unpleasant stuff, but can't
make board decisions. Can help keep boards out of legal trouble. That
said, the issue in this thread may represent a good decision. In
Florida, boards are legally required to maintain the property. Not
optional, not based on cost. Potholes obviously represent a maintenance
need. At some point it is wise to stop throwing good money after bad
and put down a good road. The total $ is big money, but the owner share
is far from hardship. It gets real tiresome to have folks coming to the
door about maintenance deficits when boards don't do their job. We just
fixed a sagging roof - wood beam rotted entirely through - that was held
up for years with two sections of downspout. Makes for some good jokes
with the contractor crew )

In addition, the Management company was supposed to offer a buffer
so PO'd homeowners didn't start fistfights in the street with board members.
Of course, there is a fee associated with this, and it is substantial. In
our association, the Management company did a truly horrible job and we
fired them. If all Management companies were as bad as the one we hired, I
don't think the management company industry would last very long.

Who was the company?

What did they do so poorly?

clipped

Can someone tell me what relation a management company has to an
association? IOW, what do they do for us?


In FL, it is generally on a contractural basis and condo associations
contract with them for certain functions. Decision making remains with
condo association/board. It can be anything from complete day to day
management, effecting repairs and maintenance per approved contractors,
acting on complaints, rules violations, assessment arrears. Can even
have a licensed condo manager conduct meetings. If the association is
large enough, it is probably the only way to go. We have a small assn,
only 8 units. Full outside mgt. would be cost prohibitive, so mgt.
company pays bills as authorized, keeps books, files taxes, issues some
of the meeting and budget letters. State law requires letters to owners
at certain intervals prior to board meetings and budget votes. State
law also requires that condo assn. maintain financial reserves for
roofs, parking lots and painting, but allows owners to vote down
reserves - the board cannot vote down reserves AFAIK. FL. statutes are
very clear in stating that board members are responsible for maintaining
property and can be held personally responsible for not doing so. FL
statutes don't define maintenance or any standards, and best answer on
the topic is that they maintain according to local building codes.
Local gov. doesn't enforce building code, so it is basic free-for-all.

Larry Bud wrote:
Got a letter today from the VP of the Management for our site condos
today. Almost every year we have to patch about 1/2 mile or so of road
from pot holes. The roads are not heavily travelled, and only used by
our sub, and while the pot holes were a nuisance, the road is only 15
mph.

The letter states that the board had conferred with several asphalt
contrators who have concluded that the road was "originally installed
an an incorrect pitch with much of the base comprised of grey wet
clay". The board had decided to tear out a good portion of the road,
and the estimated cost was $225,000. Our dues are to go up from
$75/month to almost $300 from jan to apr, then back down to $80 after
that.

Just a follow up to this as I get more info:

We have started a petition to 1) oppose the increase, 2) call a
special meeting (we actually need a certain % of signatures to do this
and 3) remove the president of the board. I hit the pavement and
talked to 20 people, 19 of which signed the petition, and 1 who was
some old cranky guy that told me to "go to hell". Kinda funny.

We have found out that the builder had a $500,000 bond for the road.
The sub was built 10 years ago. It was told to many of the people
(at least this is what many residents that I talked to said... the fact
that it came from several independant sources tell me that it's most
likely true) that the bond ran out a few years ago, but now we found
out that it really ran out 6 months ago!

We're trying to figure out who told whom what, and who pushed for the
road just now, instead of 2 or 3 years ago when it could have been
covered by the bond, and what relationship is between the builder and
the management company..... follow the money.

Larry Bud wrote:
Larry Bud wrote:
Got a letter today from the VP of the Management for our site condos
today. Almost every year we have to patch about 1/2 mile or so of road
from pot holes. The roads are not heavily travelled, and only used by
our sub, and while the pot holes were a nuisance, the road is only 15
mph.

The letter states that the board had conferred with several asphalt
contrators who have concluded that the road was "originally installed
an an incorrect pitch with much of the base comprised of grey wet
clay". The board had decided to tear out a good portion of the road,
and the estimated cost was $225,000. Our dues are to go up from
$75/month to almost $300 from jan to apr, then back down to $80 after
that.

Just a follow up to this as I get more info:

We have started a petition to 1) oppose the increase, 2) call a
special meeting (we actually need a certain % of signatures to do this
and 3) remove the president of the board.

Update on this, and advice needed:

Enough people complained for them to only raise dues from $75 to $130.
We still, however, want to call a special meeting.

We have gathered enough sigs to call a special meeting, but the board
and management company has refused. They claim that the petition was
not binding. In addition, one of the board members have told the
others on the board (there are 4 total, there is 1 opening that they
have failed to fill) that he signed the petition. They claim that he's
in conflict of interest (he IS a co-owner), and they've scared him
enough to back down on wanting his name on the peition. He's afraid of
a lawsuit.

What do we do next short of hiring a lawyer (or getting the hell out of
here) when it's clearly spelled out in the by-laws what is required for
a special meeting?

There is election in April, so maybe we just should wait until then and
try to run and get on the board, assuming elections they hold are fair
(I wouldn't put it past them that they aren't).

Some states have rule governing how a Home Owners Association board must
conduct itself.

"Larry Bud" wrote in message
oups.com...

Larry Bud wrote:
Larry Bud wrote:
Got a letter today from the VP of the Management for our site condos
today. Almost every year we have to patch about 1/2 mile or so of
road
from pot holes. The roads are not heavily travelled, and only used by
our sub, and while the pot holes were a nuisance, the road is only 15
mph.

The letter states that the board had conferred with several asphalt
contrators who have concluded that the road was "originally installed
an an incorrect pitch with much of the base comprised of grey wet
clay". The board had decided to tear out a good portion of the road,
and the estimated cost was $225,000. Our dues are to go up from
$75/month to almost $300 from jan to apr, then back down to $80 after
that.

Just a follow up to this as I get more info:

We have started a petition to 1) oppose the increase, 2) call a
special meeting (we actually need a certain % of signatures to do this
and 3) remove the president of the board.

Update on this, and advice needed:

Enough people complained for them to only raise dues from $75 to $130.
We still, however, want to call a special meeting.

We have gathered enough sigs to call a special meeting, but the board
and management company has refused. They claim that the petition was
not binding. In addition, one of the board members have told the
others on the board (there are 4 total, there is 1 opening that they
have failed to fill) that he signed the petition. They claim that he's
in conflict of interest (he IS a co-owner), and they've scared him
enough to back down on wanting his name on the peition. He's afraid of
a lawsuit.

What do we do next short of hiring a lawyer (or getting the hell out of
here) when it's clearly spelled out in the by-laws what is required for
a special meeting?

There is election in April, so maybe we just should wait until then and
try to run and get on the board, assuming elections they hold are fair
(I wouldn't put it past them that they aren't).

clipped
Update on this, and advice needed:

Enough people complained for them to only raise dues from $75 to $130.
We still, however, want to call a special meeting.

We have gathered enough sigs to call a special meeting, but the board
and management company has refused. They claim that the petition was
not binding. In addition, one of the board members have told the
others on the board (there are 4 total, there is 1 opening that they
have failed to fill) that he signed the petition. They claim that he's
in conflict of interest (he IS a co-owner), and they've scared him
enough to back down on wanting his name on the peition. He's afraid of
a lawsuit.

What do we do next short of hiring a lawyer (or getting the hell out of
here) when it's clearly spelled out in the by-laws what is required for
a special meeting?

There is election in April, so maybe we just should wait until then and
try to run and get on the board, assuming elections they hold are fair
(I wouldn't put it past them that they aren't).


First, boards have a LEGAL DUTY (here in Florida, ennyhoo) to maintain
the property and have the authority to pass special assessments to do
so. IF they have acted in good faith and according to statutes and
bylaws, it would be hard to run a legal objection to their action. If
your pothole problem is causing damage to vehicles or lots of
complaints, it sounds as if they have acted judiciously. They are
probably a code violation as well. The amount of increase - $150/month
for six months? - sure isn't beyond reasonable for repairs.

A petition, by itself, likely would not be legally binding. Florida has
separate statutes for HOA's and condominiums. Also has process for
arbitration, but that is generally for administrative wrongs (board has
not complied with statutes or bylaws), not to take issue with a
particular vote.

Having enough signatures to call a special meeting doesn't meet muster
here, as the board still has the authority to vote for maintenance and
repairs, not the association. You may have enough signatures (members
to vote) to recall board members, and a new board could then vote down
the project (unless contracts already signed). In Florida, the members
have to vote if there is a material alteration to the common areas -
like installing a new pool - but repairing existing roads would not seem
to be a material alteration. Read your documents. Members can always
sue here, but in FL the loser pays costs.