Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

Vaughn wrote:

After reading lhiggin's description of how to parallel these Hondas,
I wonder if we could easily plug one into a wall socket with a
variac to control the backwards grid meter speed :-)

You first!

I don't own one, but it seems safe enough, with a variac hooked up as
an autotransformer and 2 light bulbs in series. If it syncs, the bulbs
should be dark. Viewed in a fixed font:

--------------sC----B---B-------
| | C wall
| Honda | C socket
| | C
--------------------------------

Moving the variac slider s downwards should make the bulbs light again.
Then short out one bulb, then the other, put a Kill-a-Watt meter into
the Honda socket, and run the exhaust into the 1/2" gas pipe of a $200
upside-down water heater, after removing the thermostat innards.

Nick

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

Try it nick , be the test monkey for 3000$ worth of goods, 1/2 inch
gas line wll restrict the motor to maybe 50% power.

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

m Ransley wrote:

... 1/2 inch gas line wll restrict the motor to maybe 50% power.

Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?

Nick

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

Sure nick call HONDA, and quit posting crap that can ruin a gen, yea
call Honda on that to.

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

m Ransley errs again:

Sure nick call HONDA,

Did that. Not much help.

and quit posting crap that can ruin a gen...

Ah, so you DON'T have any evidence for your article of faith. Just more
smoke out your rear end, as usual. Ever tried thinking when posting? :-)

Small Hondas have small exhaust ports. A 1/2" pipe would probably work.
If it doesn't, removing the muffler and running the exhaust into the 3"
top of a gas water heater should not be a problem. That would make more
efficient counterflow heat exchange.

What's your cogen experience? I did my first system in Doylestown, PA
15 years ago. PECO took a year to approve my permit. It's still running.
Just got a fax inviting Pine Associates, Ltd. to submit a proposal for
a system for the city of Norwalk, CN. They estimate $800K, for 400 Honda
EU2000s and gas water heaters? :-)

http://www.bid.ci.norwalk.ct.us.

Nick

What is this in response to?
 

It sounds interesting, but I didn't see the front end.
I did a google search, but came up with just this.

What is this in response to?
 

Toller wrote:

It sounds interesting, but I didn't see the front end.
I did a google search, but came up with just this.

OK, so you replied to an existing post, didn't quote anything _and_ changed
the subject, and you expect anyone to know what you're talking about?

fwiw, having a newsreader that does real threading, it's related to Honda
EU2000 generators - but since that was the subject of the message you
replied to, you should know that.
--
derek

What is this in response to?
 

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
Toller wrote:

It sounds interesting, but I didn't see the front end.
I did a google search, but came up with just this.

OK, so you replied to an existing post, didn't quote anything _and_
changed
the subject, and you expect anyone to know what you're talking about?

fwiw, having a newsreader that does real threading, it's related to Honda
EU2000 generators - but since that was the subject of the message you
replied to, you should know that.
--
You have a point; those people who don't have the whole thread will find my
post to be nonsense.
But those people couldn't answer my question anyhow.

What is this in response to?
 

"Toller" wrote:


"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
Toller wrote:

It sounds interesting, but I didn't see the front end.
I did a google search, but came up with just this.

OK, so you replied to an existing post, didn't quote anything _and_
changed
the subject, and you expect anyone to know what you're talking about?

fwiw, having a newsreader that does real threading, it's related to Honda
EU2000 generators - but since that was the subject of the message you
replied to, you should know that.
--
You have a point; those people who don't have the whole thread will find my
post to be nonsense.
But those people couldn't answer my question anyhow.

It isn't all about you.

*plonk*

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

Running 1/2" pipe is to small, there is increased resistance with
increased length of exuast, figure 4-7 elbows to pipe it through that
will increase resistance, back pressure and increased head temps come
into play. Increase back pressure and lower hp. The honda is already
choked down so much you can hardly hear it run, lower hp on a 2000w
unit, its already under powered for most users. Just hook up a pipe you
say, what about water collecting at the low point and choking the motor
off, or water dripping back into the cilinder, not good, you can ruin
your motor. There will be water as the vertical rise cools. Just a few
things to consider and why 1/2" won`t work.

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

I looked at an EU200i today. The exhaust port ID is about 0.7" into the
muffler, which attaches with a standard looking flange with two metric
bolts. The pipe out of the muffler is about half that diameter.

It burns 1.08 gallons of gasoline with a fuel value of 123.1K Btu in 4 hours
at the 1600 W rated load, so it makes 6.4 kWh (21.8K Btu) of electricity and
101.3K Btu of heat (another 29.7 kWh), ie 36.1 kWh total, if it replaces
electric resistance heating. So cogen makes economic sense at a gasoline
price of $2/gallon if electricity costs more than 100x$2/36.1 = 5.5 cents/kWh,
in simple terms.

The ground isn't bonded to the neutral, with 60 volts from each pin to
neutral, so a grounded plug into a wall socket would damage the inverter,
so it needs to float or use an external isolation transformer.

Nick

What is this in response to?
 

Don't troll

"Derek Broughton" wrote in
message ...

fwiw, having a newsreader that does real threading,
it's related to Honda
EU2000 generators - but since that was the subject of
the message you
replied to, you should know that.
--
derek

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

m Ransley wrote:

Running 1/2" pipe is to small...

I disagree, but the pipe could easily be larger.

... what about water collecting at the low point

The pipe would go to the top of the water heater, then back down through the
3" vent. Water would condense in the downward path and leave via a pinhole,
but it wouldn't condense on the way up, because of the higher temperature.

Nick

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

In writes:

The ground isn't bonded to the neutral, with 60 volts from each pin to
neutral, so a grounded plug into a wall socket would damage the inverter,
so it needs to float or use an external isolation transformer.

whoa.... are you saying it's a "double hot" outlet?

That would _usually_ be ok, but cancertainly cause problems...

--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

danny burstein wrote:

The ground isn't bonded to the neutral, with 60 volts from each pin to
neutral, so a grounded plug into a wall socket would damage the inverter,
so it needs to float or use an external isolation transformer.

whoa.... are you saying it's a "double hot" outlet?

We might call it that.

Nick

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

wrote in message
...
The ground isn't bonded to the neutral, with 60 volts from each pin to
neutral, so a grounded plug into a wall socket would damage the inverter,
so it needs to float or use an external isolation transformer.

Nonsense. I plug mine into my transfer panal all the time.

Vaughn

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

Vaughn wrote:

The ground isn't bonded to the neutral, with 60 volts from each pin to
neutral, so a grounded plug into a wall socket would damage the inverter,
so it needs to float or use an external isolation transformer.

Nonsense. I plug mine into my transfer panal all the time.

Hmmm. I'll check further. I got this from Maurice Higgins, who put those
homemade parallel cable pictures on the web site. And IIRC, the EU2000
user's manual mentions this...

Then again, PECO's off-peak rate is about 6 cents./kWh, so 5.5 isn't a big
savings. Maybe the gas water heater should be part of a woodstove chimney,
with a draft suction fan at the bottom and 3" galvanized pipe popped into
the flue with the edges unsnapped to lessen liquid creosote corrosion.

Nick

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

Vaughn wrote:

The ground isn't bonded to the neutral, with 60 volts from each pin to
neutral, so a grounded plug into a wall socket would damage the inverter,
so it needs to float or use an external isolation transformer.

Nonsense. I plug mine into my transfer panal all the time.

Hmmm... IIRC, the EU2000 user's manual mentions this...

I stand corrected. The note on page 14 of the on-line user's manual says
the receptacle grounds are connected to the frame, and the wiring diagram
on page 54 shows that, but I couldn't find any warning not to connect the
rectangular pins to the ground, and Vaughn does this, so it seems OK :-)

Nick

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

wrote in message
...
Vaughn wrote:

The ground isn't bonded to the neutral, with 60 volts from each pin to
neutral, so a grounded plug into a wall socket would damage the
inverter,
so it needs to float or use an external isolation transformer.

Nonsense. I plug mine into my transfer panal all the time.

Hmmm... IIRC, the EU2000 user's manual mentions this...

I stand corrected. The note on page 14 of the on-line user's manual says
the receptacle grounds are connected to the frame, and the wiring diagram
on page 54 shows that, but I couldn't find any warning not to connect the
rectangular pins to the ground, and Vaughn does this, so it seems OK :-)

Nick


Best if the neutral and ground are tied together at one location. The
ground is a saftey item. Neutral is designed to carry the current.

House wiring, the ground and neutral are tied together at the entrance
panel. No where else.

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

wrote in message
...

I stand corrected. The note on page 14 of the on-line user's manual says
the receptacle grounds are connected to the frame, and the wiring diagram
on page 54 shows that, but I couldn't find any warning not to connect the
rectangular pins to the ground, and Vaughn does this, so it seems OK :-)

I think there may have been such an issue with the early versions of the
inverter generators. Anyhow, page 18 specifically addresses connecting the
generator to a building electrical system. Basically, it just tells you to use
a transfer panel.

Since the neutral is not connected to the ground internally in the
generator (also P. 18) you may measure virtually anything (or nothing) from
either power terminal to ground if you are using a sensitive meter. To see if
that voltage is "real" (and not just a bit of leakage) use an incandescent test
lamp instead of a meter.

Vaughn



Nick

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

"Vaughn" wrote in
:


wrote in message
...
The ground isn't bonded to the neutral, with 60 volts from each pin
to neutral, so a grounded plug into a wall socket would damage the
inverter, so it needs to float or use an external isolation
transformer.

Nonsense. I plug mine into my transfer panal all the time.

Vaughn





My little Yamaha plugs into my transfer panel also, and lives
to generate another day, those cheap inverters on the other
hand........... Rob

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

"Rob" wrote in message
.. .
My little Yamaha plugs into my transfer panel also, and lives
to generate another day, those cheap inverters on the other
hand...........

Yes, as far as I know Yamaha makes a great inverter generator. You, on the
other hand.......

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

I doubt it. Did you use a 10 megohm input impedance
voltmeter to measure it?

wrote in message
...
danny burstein wrote:

The ground isn't bonded to the neutral, with 60
volts from each pin to
neutral, so a grounded plug into a wall socket
would damage the inverter,
so it needs to float or use an external isolation
transformer.

whoa.... are you saying it's a "double hot" outlet?

We might call it that.

Nick

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

wrote in message
...
Vaughn wrote:

The ground isn't bonded to the neutral, with 60 volts from each pin to
neutral, so a grounded plug into a wall socket would damage the
inverter,
so it needs to float or use an external isolation transformer.

Nonsense. I plug mine into my transfer panal all the time.

Hmmm... IIRC, the EU2000 user's manual mentions this...

I stand corrected. The note on page 14 of the on-line user's manual says
the receptacle grounds are connected to the frame, and the wiring diagram
on page 54 shows that, but I couldn't find any warning not to connect the
rectangular pins to the ground, and Vaughn does this, so it seems OK :-)


For a lot of 'temporary' power sources that are meant to be connected into a
regular utility fed service panel, it is common to leave the 'ground' and
'neutral' separated by the manufacturer. This gives you the most flexible
configuration.

In some code installations, the ground is tied to the service panel ground,
and the neutral tied just to the panel neutral. And then the two are tied
together in the service panel only. This type of connection allows for
three-conductor transfer switch that switches two 'hots' and the neutral
between grid and emergency power source.

If the local power source has the neutral tied to ground at the
generator/inverter, then when connected to the main service panel you have
two ground-neutral ties (one at source, one at panel) and that's generally a
bad thing.

If the local generator/inverter is meant to be the sole source of power,
then it can have neutral and ground tied at the source.

It all varies with whether the inverter feeds the main panel or a sub-panel,
whether it's the sole power source or there's a transfer switch from grid
power, etc...

With an output that is isolated from the ground, it isn't unusual to read
about 1/2 the voltage output between 'hot' and a ground, but the exact
reading depends on the meter and amount of circuitry. It's really just a
form of 'leakage' and not a 'hard' reading.

daestrom

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

Rich256 wrote:

wrote in message

Vaughn wrote:

Nonsense. I plug mine into my transfer panal all the time.

Hmmm... IIRC, the EU2000 user's manual mentions this...

I stand corrected. The note on page 14 of the on-line user's manual says
the receptacle grounds are connected to the frame, and the wiring diagram
on page 54 shows that...

Best if the neutral and ground are tied together at one location. The
ground is a saftey item. Neutral is designed to carry the current.

Maurice Riggins adds:

Well... it's like I said... if you're reading 60V on the neutral line
with respect to ground, would YOU connect neutral to ground? Remember
that the neutral side of the EU output is unfused. Although the EU
manual shows the wiring diagram, it doesn't show you what's in the
inverter. That Vaughn is able to get away with shorting the 60V neutral
to ground, and apparently then getting 120V instead of 60V on the hot
side WRT ground, indicates the output is probably already transformer
coupled in the inverter. I wouldn't have considered that a safe
assumption to make.

Nick

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

wrote in message
...
Rich256 wrote:

Maurice Riggins adds:

Well... it's like I said... if you're reading 60V on the neutral line
with respect to ground, would YOU connect neutral to ground? Remember
that the neutral side of the EU output is unfused. Although the EU
manual shows the wiring diagram, it doesn't show you what's in the
inverter. That Vaughn is able to get away with shorting the 60V neutral
to ground, and apparently then getting 120V instead of 60V on the hot
side WRT ground, indicates the output is probably already transformer
coupled in the inverter. I wouldn't have considered that a safe
assumption to make.

I made no assumptions. I simply took the time to read the manual. As both
I and another poster pointed out, you are reading a leakage voltage because the
ground is not referenced to the hot or neutral. You need to add a load to get a
correct reading.

Vaughn

Honda eu 2000 Generator
 

"Vaughn" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
Rich256 wrote:

Maurice Riggins adds:

Well... it's like I said... if you're reading 60V on the neutral line
with respect to ground, would YOU connect neutral to ground? Remember
that the neutral side of the EU output is unfused. Although the EU
manual shows the wiring diagram, it doesn't show you what's in the
inverter. That Vaughn is able to get away with shorting the 60V neutral
to ground, and apparently then getting 120V instead of 60V on the hot
side WRT ground, indicates the output is probably already transformer
coupled in the inverter. I wouldn't have considered that a safe
assumption to make.

I made no assumptions. I simply took the time to read the manual.
As both
I and another poster pointed out, you are reading a leakage voltage
because the
ground is not referenced to the hot or neutral. You need to add a load to
get a
correct reading.

Vaughn


Correct. Since the ground is attached to the frame that means all the metal
structure around the inverter is tied to that wire.


If a high value resistor were tied between the ground and neutral the
reading to the ground would most likely disappear. Just something to bleed
off the induced voltage. As someone else said they are not tied together in
the generator to avoid a double ground when tied into another system.

It's too cold or I would fire up my generator and see what it reads. This
does bring up an interesting subject in that when an RV is plugged into the
generator the ground is still floating. RVs do not tie their grounds and
return either. Well, not usually. If they do they often can't plug into
many campground systems because the CGs use ground fault detectors. If the
ground and return are tied together some current will flow in both wires
tripping the detector.