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  #41   Report Post  
Posted to misc.consumers,alt.home.repair
Sawney Beane
 
Posts: n/a
Default UPS Fraud in Furnace Parts

wrote:

The problem with Sawney's theory that this "mom and pop" internet
vendor is running a scam is this. UPS is not stupid. How many claims
for shipping damage do you think UPS will pay for one shipper before
they either refuse further shipments or call the cops for fraud?
Sure, a vendor could get away with it once in awhile, but it's kind of
hard to believe they could do it enough to make it worthwhile.


Suppose he normally buys them for $24 and sells them for $30.
Suppose he sells five a week, among 150 packages of various items,
each with a $6 markup. That's $900 a week for pay and overhead.
It's $30 from this item and $870 from the 145 other packages.

Suppose somebody at the Norton factory will sell him 50 QC rejects
with hairline cracks for $2 apiece. Suppose he has a sale at $26.
Online shoppers choose him and sales rise to 10 a day. Now the
markup is 10 x 24 x 5 or $1200 per week for that one item. $1170
of it is an increase in his profit.

If the customer thinks it's not the vendor's fault because it was
inspected and well packed, each customer immediately orders a
replacement. This time a good one is sent. That's 50 a week at $6
markup adding another $300. In one week the dealer's profit
increases $1470 from selling 50 rejects.

He shipped 245 packages, of which 50 contained rejects. So well
packaged, perhaps 49 arrive in one piece. Nothing on his website
said they were fragile, and the warning note was tucked out of
sight. The only thing that alerted me was the unexpected FRAGILE
stickers on the package. If it breaks during installation or in
use, the customer will probably blame himself. After all, the
warning said the absence of visible breaks was supposed to prove
there was nothing wrong.

Out of the 50, suppose 3 call UPS. That's about 1% of the volume
the vender shipped that week. The vender increased his profit by
$1470, but will UPS investigate?


What to do is obvious. It's up to the shipper to pursue the claim with
UPS. Send them an email telling them that. And notify the credit card
company that you are disputing the unauthorized charge for the second
item, as well as a refund for the first legitimate transaction because
the item was returned.


The day I received the defective item, I told the vendor I could
buy one locally and I notified UPS. The vendor later asked if I'd
filed a claim. I said yes, but he didn't offer a refund.

So far he has not charged my card for the replacement I had asked
him repeatedly not to send. I suppose UPS has paid him for my
claim, and he finds it more profitable to send me something I don't
want than to refund my payment.
  #42   Report Post  
Posted to misc.consumers,alt.home.repair
Sawney Beane
 
Posts: n/a
Default UPS Fraud in Furnace Parts

wrote:

Well...if the second ignitor is good you now have a spare....in a
couple of years the current ignitor will go bad...maybe sooner if you
didnt get it put back just right.


I'm not about to open that box to see if he decided to send me a
good one this time. I have confidence in the one I am using
because I bought it elsewhere and installed it myself. If I were
curious, I could check the current now and again in a month. I
believe cracking is progressive and would reduce the draw over time.

I worked for the gas company years ago and we had to go out and inspect
gas furnace installations....I remember this one company always had a
lot of trouble with the hot surface ignitors in their furnaces being
broken even before the furnace was put into use. They would be broken
by the rough handling the furnaces received from their installing
personell....dropping the furnaces etc.....


The one I got had apparently come from the factory packed in foam
rubber. I hadn't subjected it to stress or shock.

silicon carbide is fragile.....and the problem with oil from your
fingers is this....it causes the silicon carbide to heat up at a
different rate where the oil is....it makes it not heat evenly and this
puts stress on the fragile material.


Doesn't the heating come from the resistance of the silicon
carbide? Above, Terry gave the link to a manufacturer who says
it's a myth that oil from the skin will harm an ignitor.
  #43   Report Post  
Posted to misc.consumers,alt.home.repair
Edwin Pawlowski
 
Posts: n/a
Default UPS Fraud in Furnace Parts

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message

Suppose somebody at the Norton factory will sell him 50 QC rejects
with hairline cracks for $2 apiece. Suppose he has a sale at $26.
Online shoppers choose him and sales rise to 10 a day. Now the
markup is 10 x 24 x 5 or $1200 per week for that one item. $1170
of it is an increase in his profit.


That is an awful lot of "supposes" on your part. You'd make a better
fiction writher than heater service tech. you should be careful that none
of your fantasies become a libel situation. Norton has lots of money for
lawyers


  #44   Report Post  
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CBHVAC
 
Posts: n/a
Default UPS Fraud in Furnace Parts


"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...
wrote:

The problem with Sawney's theory that this "mom and pop" internet
vendor is running a scam is this. UPS is not stupid. How many claims
for shipping damage do you think UPS will pay for one shipper before
they either refuse further shipments or call the cops for fraud?
Sure, a vendor could get away with it once in awhile, but it's kind of
hard to believe they could do it enough to make it worthwhile.


Suppose he normally buys them for $24 and sells them for $30.
Suppose he sells five a week, among 150 packages of various items,
each with a $6 markup. That's $900 a week for pay and overhead.
It's $30 from this item and $870 from the 145 other packages.

Suppose somebody at the Norton factory will sell him 50 QC rejects
with hairline cracks for $2 apiece. Suppose he has a sale at $26.
Online shoppers choose him and sales rise to 10 a day. Now the
markup is 10 x 24 x 5 or $1200 per week for that one item. $1170
of it is an increase in his profit.



This post, with trace and headers, sent to appropriate folks...



If the customer thinks it's not the vendor's fault because it was
inspected and well packed, each customer immediately orders a
replacement. This time a good one is sent. That's 50 a week at $6
markup adding another $300. In one week the dealer's profit
increases $1470 from selling 50 rejects.

He shipped 245 packages, of which 50 contained rejects. So well
packaged, perhaps 49 arrive in one piece. Nothing on his website
said they were fragile, and the warning note was tucked out of
sight. The only thing that alerted me was the unexpected FRAGILE
stickers on the package. If it breaks during installation or in
use, the customer will probably blame himself. After all, the
warning said the absence of visible breaks was supposed to prove
there was nothing wrong.

Out of the 50, suppose 3 call UPS. That's about 1% of the volume
the vender shipped that week. The vender increased his profit by
$1470, but will UPS investigate?


What to do is obvious. It's up to the shipper to pursue the claim with
UPS. Send them an email telling them that. And notify the credit card
company that you are disputing the unauthorized charge for the second
item, as well as a refund for the first legitimate transaction because
the item was returned.


The day I received the defective item, I told the vendor I could
buy one locally and I notified UPS. The vendor later asked if I'd
filed a claim. I said yes, but he didn't offer a refund.

So far he has not charged my card for the replacement I had asked
him repeatedly not to send. I suppose UPS has paid him for my
claim, and he finds it more profitable to send me something I don't
want than to refund my payment.



  #45   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
Bob
 
Posts: n/a
Default UPS Fraud in Furnace Parts


"Bubba" wrote in message
Why don't you go back to alt.hvac with the rest of the
losers there. You are of no use here, it seems.

Bob


Wanna make me...............Bobby?
Bubba


Ah! the mouth matches the name so well.

Bob



  #46   Report Post  
Posted to misc.consumers,alt.home.repair
 
Posts: n/a
Default UPS Fraud in Furnace Parts

"He shipped 245 packages, of which 50 contained rejects. Out of the
50, suppose 3 call UPS. That's about 1% of the volume
the vender shipped that week. The vender increased his profit by
$1470, but will UPS investigate? "

He ships 50 units that don't work and you expect only 3 will result in
a damage claim to UPS? You whole original post was centered on this
being a UPS scam, based on the shipment being labled fragile and that
the vendor took other steps to strongly suggest these items could be
easily damaged in shipping. For that scam to work, UPS must pay off on
a shipping claim. And if a vendor sends out 50 defective parts, I
would expect there to be pretty close to 50 claims against UPS or 50
credit card claims against the vendor, not a mere 3 claims. 47
consumers sure as hell aren't going to just eat this. Did you?

  #47   Report Post  
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Sawney Beane
 
Posts: n/a
Default UPS Fraud in Furnace Parts

CBHVAC wrote:

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...
wrote:

The problem with Sawney's theory that this "mom and pop" internet
vendor is running a scam is this. UPS is not stupid. How many claims
for shipping damage do you think UPS will pay for one shipper before
they either refuse further shipments or call the cops for fraud?
Sure, a vendor could get away with it once in awhile, but it's kind of
hard to believe they could do it enough to make it worthwhile.


Suppose he normally buys them for $24 and sells them for $30.
Suppose he sells five a week, among 150 packages of various items,
each with a $6 markup. That's $900 a week for pay and overhead.
It's $30 from this item and $870 from the 145 other packages.

Suppose somebody at the Norton factory will sell him 50 QC rejects
with hairline cracks for $2 apiece. Suppose he has a sale at $26.
Online shoppers choose him and sales rise to 10 a day. Now the
markup is 10 x 24 x 5 or $1200 per week for that one item. $1170
of it is an increase in his profit.


This post, with trace and headers, sent to appropriate folks...

That's great! I've searched the web for a way to contact Norton.

When the ignitor disintegrated in the palm of my hand, I couldn't
believe the dealer's assertion that UPS was at fault. It seemed
most likely that it had come from the factory with cracks. I
wanted to ask Norton if the dealer's printed warning was correct in
saying the manufacturer's QC amounted to the random test firing of ignitors.

The ignitor came in a padded box with another company's name, so I
also wanted to ask which company did the QC. The one I bought
locally came in a box from a third company. When I opened it and
saw it was made by Norton, I felt uneasy. I realized it was unfair
to mistrust Norton products without verifying what the dealer had said.

The dealer's warning says his visual inspection proved the ignitor
was free of defects. I think he knows better. I told him I'd
filed the claim against UPS as instructed and bought an ignitor
locally, but he never mentioned a refund, leaving me to expect a
refund from UPS. He sent me another ignitor after I asked him five
times not to send it because I had one.

I can imagine he would sell black-market rejects if he had a
source. It may be downstream from Norton where ignitors are tested
and rejects set aside in their padded boxes. Who would think to
post a guard over junk? What would prevent a vending-machine
servicer, for example, from taking some if he knew who would buy
them?

I received an ignitor with multiple cracks. The dealer blamed UPS
but also said most ignitors reach the consumer without being test
fired. I find it more plausible to believe I received a QC reject.
It implies that I can trust Norton products as long as they come
through honest dealers.

Thanks again for alerting Norton. Until I was nine, I lived within
walking distance of a Norton abrasives plant. A man I respected
worked there.
  #48   Report Post  
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CBHVAC
 
Posts: n/a
Default UPS Fraud in Furnace Parts


"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...
CBHVAC wrote:

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...
wrote:

The problem with Sawney's theory that this "mom and pop" internet
vendor is running a scam is this. UPS is not stupid. How many claims
for shipping damage do you think UPS will pay for one shipper before
they either refuse further shipments or call the cops for fraud?
Sure, a vendor could get away with it once in awhile, but it's kind of
hard to believe they could do it enough to make it worthwhile.

Suppose he normally buys them for $24 and sells them for $30.
Suppose he sells five a week, among 150 packages of various items,
each with a $6 markup. That's $900 a week for pay and overhead.
It's $30 from this item and $870 from the 145 other packages.

Suppose somebody at the Norton factory will sell him 50 QC rejects
with hairline cracks for $2 apiece. Suppose he has a sale at $26.
Online shoppers choose him and sales rise to 10 a day. Now the
markup is 10 x 24 x 5 or $1200 per week for that one item. $1170
of it is an increase in his profit.


This post, with trace and headers, sent to appropriate folks...

That's great! I've searched the web for a way to contact Norton.

When the ignitor disintegrated in the palm of my hand, I couldn't
believe the dealer's assertion that UPS was at fault. It seemed
most likely that it had come from the factory with cracks. I
wanted to ask Norton if the dealer's printed warning was correct in
saying the manufacturer's QC amounted to the random test firing of
ignitors.

The ignitor came in a padded box with another company's name, so I
also wanted to ask which company did the QC. The one I bought
locally came in a box from a third company. When I opened it and
saw it was made by Norton, I felt uneasy. I realized it was unfair
to mistrust Norton products without verifying what the dealer had said.

The dealer's warning says his visual inspection proved the ignitor
was free of defects. I think he knows better. I told him I'd
filed the claim against UPS as instructed and bought an ignitor
locally, but he never mentioned a refund, leaving me to expect a
refund from UPS. He sent me another ignitor after I asked him five
times not to send it because I had one.

I can imagine he would sell black-market rejects if he had a
source. It may be downstream from Norton where ignitors are tested
and rejects set aside in their padded boxes. Who would think to
post a guard over junk? What would prevent a vending-machine
servicer, for example, from taking some if he knew who would buy
them?

I received an ignitor with multiple cracks. The dealer blamed UPS
but also said most ignitors reach the consumer without being test
fired. I find it more plausible to believe I received a QC reject.
It implies that I can trust Norton products as long as they come
through honest dealers.

Thanks again for alerting Norton. Until I was nine, I lived within
walking distance of a Norton abrasives plant. A man I respected
worked there.


Your point?

I have one for you....we install upwards of 100 of those a year, for years
now.
I have only gotten ONE bad one out of the box. I installed 4 on one unit
before we found out about the recall on the Robertshaw controller.....
I sell to those that ask...no ones sent one back.
Oil from your hands and fingers DOES cut the life of the ignitor.
Just because you got a part, does not mean you got the full set of training
instructions for handling with it.

You are one person, that needed ONE ignitor..while there are many of us in
here that see those day in and day out and never have an issue..
So..guess what? Sounds to me like the ignitor was fine when it left...and
you thought it would be cute to try to lift it out of the foam that is cut
to fit it in the box by the ignitor itself, or, UPS stepped on the little
box..

Im not defending Norton, but rather, letting you know that just because you
got a bad one, no ones sending bad **** from the factory..if they were, no
one would use them since there ARE replacements out there that are ceramic.


  #49   Report Post  
Posted to misc.consumers,alt.home.repair
Sawney Beane
 
Posts: n/a
Default UPS Fraud in Furnace Parts

wrote:

"He shipped 245 packages, of which 50 contained rejects. Out of the
50, suppose 3 call UPS. That's about 1% of the volume
the vender shipped that week. The vender increased his profit by
$1470, but will UPS investigate? "

He ships 50 units that don't work and you expect only 3 will result in
a damage claim to UPS? You whole original post was centered on this
being a UPS scam, based on the shipment being labled fragile and that
the vendor took other steps to strongly suggest these items could be
easily damaged in shipping. For that scam to work, UPS must pay off on
a shipping claim. And if a vendor sends out 50 defective parts, I
would expect there to be pretty close to 50 claims against UPS or 50
credit card claims against the vendor, not a mere 3 claims. 47
consumers sure as hell aren't going to just eat this. Did you?



I nearly did. It looked perfect coming out of the package. A few
seconds later, I looked in my hand and it was in pieces. I thought
it must have been my fault.

Imagine this. You find this dealer's helpful website after your
HVAC company didn't return your call. When the box arrives, you
are surprised to see several FRAGILE tags because there was no such
indication on the webside. Naturally, you examine the ignitor.

As you install it, you suddenly see that it's broken. Then you
find the warning tucked away where it wasn't visible when you
opened the box. It says the dealer's inspection proved it was not
defective when shipped. This implies that your inspection proved
it was okay when it arrived.

It warns against touching the "gray glass part." It says ignitors
are FRAGILE and the dealer has broken a few himself. In that case,
it must be very delicate, and you assume you broke it by touching
it.

If you saw the warning in time to avoid touching it, the first
indication of trouble may come after the ignitor is installed. It
would take a bomb-disposal expert to install it without the
slightest mechanical shock. If you believe the filament is
extremely delicate, it may appear that the damage occurred during installation.

If not for my particular circumstances, I probably would have paid
for the broken one and a new one.

1. I was "lucky" in that it broke as soon as I picked it up, and I
had been gentle.

2. I had needed a 10x magnifier to find the break in the old one
even though electricity had blown it open and left a white deposit.
I knew my inspection would not have revealed hairline cracks.

3. I had twisted and pried the old filament for several days,
trying to examine the broken ends. I would have been glad to break
it, but it stood up to the abuse. The material was definitely not
glass. It's known for its strength and resistance to thermal
shock. Like a glass coke bottle or a sealed-beam headlamp,it could
be called fragile but not delicate. Picking it up should not have
harmed it.

Otherwise, I would accepted the loss as mine. It's easy for me to
imagine that few customers would have called UPS.
  #50   Report Post  
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Sawney Beane
 
Posts: n/a
Default UPS Fraud in Furnace Parts

CBHVAC wrote:

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...
CBHVAC wrote:

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...
wrote:

The problem with Sawney's theory that this "mom and pop" internet
vendor is running a scam is this. UPS is not stupid. How many claims
for shipping damage do you think UPS will pay for one shipper before
they either refuse further shipments or call the cops for fraud?
Sure, a vendor could get away with it once in awhile, but it's kind of
hard to believe they could do it enough to make it worthwhile.

Suppose he normally buys them for $24 and sells them for $30.
Suppose he sells five a week, among 150 packages of various items,
each with a $6 markup. That's $900 a week for pay and overhead.
It's $30 from this item and $870 from the 145 other packages.

Suppose somebody at the Norton factory will sell him 50 QC rejects
with hairline cracks for $2 apiece. Suppose he has a sale at $26.
Online shoppers choose him and sales rise to 10 a day. Now the
markup is 10 x 24 x 5 or $1200 per week for that one item. $1170
of it is an increase in his profit.

This post, with trace and headers, sent to appropriate folks...

That's great! I've searched the web for a way to contact Norton.

When the ignitor disintegrated in the palm of my hand, I couldn't
believe the dealer's assertion that UPS was at fault. It seemed
most likely that it had come from the factory with cracks. I
wanted to ask Norton if the dealer's printed warning was correct in
saying the manufacturer's QC amounted to the random test firing of
ignitors.

The ignitor came in a padded box with another company's name, so I
also wanted to ask which company did the QC. The one I bought
locally came in a box from a third company. When I opened it and
saw it was made by Norton, I felt uneasy. I realized it was unfair
to mistrust Norton products without verifying what the dealer had said.

The dealer's warning says his visual inspection proved the ignitor
was free of defects. I think he knows better. I told him I'd
filed the claim against UPS as instructed and bought an ignitor
locally, but he never mentioned a refund, leaving me to expect a
refund from UPS. He sent me another ignitor after I asked him five
times not to send it because I had one.

I can imagine he would sell black-market rejects if he had a
source. It may be downstream from Norton where ignitors are tested
and rejects set aside in their padded boxes. Who would think to
post a guard over junk? What would prevent a vending-machine
servicer, for example, from taking some if he knew who would buy
them?

I received an ignitor with multiple cracks. The dealer blamed UPS
but also said most ignitors reach the consumer without being test
fired. I find it more plausible to believe I received a QC reject.
It implies that I can trust Norton products as long as they come
through honest dealers.

Thanks again for alerting Norton. Until I was nine, I lived within
walking distance of a Norton abrasives plant. A man I respected
worked there.


Your point?

I have one for you....we install upwards of 100 of those a year, for years
now.
I have only gotten ONE bad one out of the box. I installed 4 on one unit
before we found out about the recall on the Robertshaw controller.....
I sell to those that ask...no ones sent one back.


So you agree that an ignitor that came through normal channels
probably would not have arrived with three cracks.

Do you agree with my dealer that only a few random ignitors are
tested? I'll bet they're all tested, like light bulbs.

Oil from your hands and fingers DOES cut the life of the ignitor.


Are you familair with the recrystalized silicon carbide ignitors
made by Sealed Unit Products Company? They say that's a myth.

Just because you got a part, does not mean you got the full set of training
instructions for handling with it.


That sounds impressive. Where can I get the full set of training instructions?


You are one person, that needed ONE ignitor..while there are many of us in
here that see those day in and day out and never have an issue..


Exactly!

So..guess what? Sounds to me like the ignitor was fine when it left...and
you thought it would be cute to try to lift it out of the foam that is cut
to fit it in the box by the ignitor itself,


Would picking it up "by the ignitor itself" break it?

It sounds as if your experience with ignitors has been limited, so
let me fill you in. The two I bought, of two brands, didn't have
foam cutouts. Each had a rectangular prism of sponge that fit the
inside of the manufacturer's box. Each sponge was slit so that the
top and bottom could be separated like the pages of a book. The
ignitor lay in the slit. I had noted the FRAGILE labels on the box
and avoided taking chances.


or, UPS stepped on the little
box..


It was double boxed with no evidence of crushing.


Im not defending Norton, but rather, letting you know that just because you
got a bad one, no ones sending bad **** from the factory..if they were, no
one would use them since there ARE replacements out there that are ceramic.


Exactly! I was uneasy when I saw that the second ignitor was also
a Norton, but it wouldn't make sense for a manufacturer to be
haphazard with QC, no matter what the dealer says. I think the
problem is the dealer.


  #51   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
Bubba
 
Posts: n/a
Default UPS Fraud in Furnace Parts

On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:24:58 -0800, "Bob"
wrote:


"Bubba" wrote in message
Why don't you go back to alt.hvac with the rest of the
losers there. You are of no use here, it seems.

Bob


Wanna make me...............Bobby?
Bubba


Ah! the mouth matches the name so well.

Bob


I'll take that as a "No" pussy.
Bubba
  #52   Report Post  
Posted to misc.consumers,alt.home.repair
Edwin Pawlowski
 
Posts: n/a
Default UPS Fraud in Furnace Parts

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
When the ignitor disintegrated in the palm of my hand, I couldn't
believe the dealer's assertion that UPS was at fault. It seemed
most likely that it had come from the factory with cracks. I
wanted to ask Norton if the dealer's printed warning was correct in
saying the manufacturer's QC amounted to the random test firing of
ignitors.




The ignitor came in a padded box with another company's name, so I
also wanted to ask which company did the QC. The one I bought
locally came in a box from a third company. When I opened it and
saw it was made by Norton, I felt uneasy. I realized it was unfair
to mistrust Norton products without verifying what the dealer had said.


Norton is the largest supplier of igniters in the world. They got that way
because of the quality of their parts. They make many millions of them for
every major appliance company. .

St. Gobain-Norton
Powers Street
Milford NH

Why not give them a call?


I can imagine he would sell black-market rejects if he had a
source. It may be downstream from Norton where ignitors are tested
and rejects set aside in their padded boxes. Who would think to
post a guard over junk? What would prevent a vending-machine
servicer, for example, from taking some if he knew who would buy
them?


Companies like Norton take steps to assure that does not happen. They are
smart enough to have a procedure in effect to prevent that. They are a
ISO9000 plant and have a written policy on rejects. I'm sure they will be
glad to review it with you. Please, don't make accusations with no evidence
as you look like a fool grasping at straws and can even leave you open for a
libel suit. I have been in that plant where the igniters are made. It was
100% perfect when shipped to you.


  #53   Report Post  
Posted to misc.consumers,alt.home.repair
CBHVAC
 
Posts: n/a
Default UPS Fraud in Furnace Parts


"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...
CBHVAC wrote:

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...
CBHVAC wrote:

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...
wrote:

The problem with Sawney's theory that this "mom and pop" internet
vendor is running a scam is this. UPS is not stupid. How many
claims
for shipping damage do you think UPS will pay for one shipper
before
they either refuse further shipments or call the cops for fraud?
Sure, a vendor could get away with it once in awhile, but it's kind
of
hard to believe they could do it enough to make it worthwhile.

Suppose he normally buys them for $24 and sells them for $30.
Suppose he sells five a week, among 150 packages of various items,
each with a $6 markup. That's $900 a week for pay and overhead.
It's $30 from this item and $870 from the 145 other packages.

Suppose somebody at the Norton factory will sell him 50 QC rejects
with hairline cracks for $2 apiece. Suppose he has a sale at $26.
Online shoppers choose him and sales rise to 10 a day. Now the
markup is 10 x 24 x 5 or $1200 per week for that one item. $1170
of it is an increase in his profit.

This post, with trace and headers, sent to appropriate folks...

That's great! I've searched the web for a way to contact Norton.

When the ignitor disintegrated in the palm of my hand, I couldn't
believe the dealer's assertion that UPS was at fault. It seemed
most likely that it had come from the factory with cracks. I
wanted to ask Norton if the dealer's printed warning was correct in
saying the manufacturer's QC amounted to the random test firing of
ignitors.

The ignitor came in a padded box with another company's name, so I
also wanted to ask which company did the QC. The one I bought
locally came in a box from a third company. When I opened it and
saw it was made by Norton, I felt uneasy. I realized it was unfair
to mistrust Norton products without verifying what the dealer had said.

The dealer's warning says his visual inspection proved the ignitor
was free of defects. I think he knows better. I told him I'd
filed the claim against UPS as instructed and bought an ignitor
locally, but he never mentioned a refund, leaving me to expect a
refund from UPS. He sent me another ignitor after I asked him five
times not to send it because I had one.

I can imagine he would sell black-market rejects if he had a
source. It may be downstream from Norton where ignitors are tested
and rejects set aside in their padded boxes. Who would think to
post a guard over junk? What would prevent a vending-machine
servicer, for example, from taking some if he knew who would buy
them?

I received an ignitor with multiple cracks. The dealer blamed UPS
but also said most ignitors reach the consumer without being test
fired. I find it more plausible to believe I received a QC reject.
It implies that I can trust Norton products as long as they come
through honest dealers.

Thanks again for alerting Norton. Until I was nine, I lived within
walking distance of a Norton abrasives plant. A man I respected
worked there.


Your point?

I have one for you....we install upwards of 100 of those a year, for
years
now.
I have only gotten ONE bad one out of the box. I installed 4 on one unit
before we found out about the recall on the Robertshaw controller.....
I sell to those that ask...no ones sent one back.


So you agree that an ignitor that came through normal channels
probably would not have arrived with three cracks.


I do not.
I do not agree to that.
Im telling you that nothing is perfect..you got a bad one..damn..move on.


Do you agree with my dealer that only a few random ignitors are
tested? I'll bet they're all tested, like light bulbs.


No..I dont.
It gets tested before it leaves, and you can tell that by the
discolorization on EACH and EVERY new one.


Oil from your hands and fingers DOES cut the life of the ignitor.


Are you familair with the recrystalized silicon carbide ignitors
made by Sealed Unit Products Company? They say that's a myth.


Yea, and are you familiar with how SEs can make a 12X20 duct go in a 5X7
hole?
Marketing...

Just because you got a part, does not mean you got the full set of
training
instructions for handling with it.


That sounds impressive. Where can I get the full set of training
instructions?


Ask your local community college..they aint cheap...



You are one person, that needed ONE ignitor..while there are many of us
in
here that see those day in and day out and never have an issue..


Exactly!


You are correcting yourself here.


So..guess what? Sounds to me like the ignitor was fine when it left...and
you thought it would be cute to try to lift it out of the foam that is
cut
to fit it in the box by the ignitor itself,


Would picking it up "by the ignitor itself" break it?


Yea.
DUH


It sounds as if your experience with ignitors has been limited, so
let me fill you in. The two I bought, of two brands, didn't have
foam cutouts. Each had a rectangular prism of sponge that fit the
inside of the manufacturer's box. Each sponge was slit so that the
top and bottom could be separated like the pages of a book. The
ignitor lay in the slit. I had noted the FRAGILE labels on the box
and avoided taking chances.


Limited...umm..sure. Ok...whatever.
I know what the box looks like skippy. I have a full set of the ones we run
into every time we need one. I normally keep at least 3 of the faster moving
ones on the vans...all of them.
I also keep a few of the ceramic replacments with the metal jacket around
them, and at least two complete HSI control systems on each truck.
Did you notice the little yellow or pink, or white slip of paper in the box
that said, in so many words, not to touch, or handle the carbide tip?


or, UPS stepped on the little
box..


It was double boxed with no evidence of crushing.


Then you just learned how fragile they can be then.,



Im not defending Norton, but rather, letting you know that just because
you
got a bad one, no ones sending bad **** from the factory..if they were,
no
one would use them since there ARE replacements out there that are
ceramic.


Exactly! I was uneasy when I saw that the second ignitor was also
a Norton, but it wouldn't make sense for a manufacturer to be
haphazard with QC, no matter what the dealer says. I think the
problem is the dealer.


Norton, as far as I am concerned, makes the best HSI carbide ignitor there
is.
Of course, after more than a decade of doing this, Ive got such limited
experence, what in hell I know? I just buy a few thousand dollars worth of
HSI units a year.
I dont get it...you think the problems the dealer? AN INTERNET DEALER? A
guy thats prob working out of a tin shack?
Honestly, you prob could have called a local supplier, told them what you
had, and gotten one as cheap, and then, since I dont know what your time is
worth to you, could have saved a couple of hundred at least in time not
having to run around and make noise.
Your posting is confusing at best. Silicon Carbine ignitors, in general, are
outdated, and while I carry more on one truck than you will see in a
lifetime hopefully for you, (meaning, hopefully you never need that many to
replace) its cause some people just dont want to pay the extra for a better
unit. The furnaces that we install now dont even come with them, and havent
had a failure on one now since they switched.


  #54   Report Post  
Posted to misc.consumers,alt.home.repair
CBHVAC
 
Posts: n/a
Default UPS Fraud in Furnace Parts


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...
"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
When the ignitor disintegrated in the palm of my hand, I couldn't
believe the dealer's assertion that UPS was at fault. It seemed
most likely that it had come from the factory with cracks. I
wanted to ask Norton if the dealer's printed warning was correct in
saying the manufacturer's QC amounted to the random test firing of
ignitors.




The ignitor came in a padded box with another company's name, so I
also wanted to ask which company did the QC. The one I bought
locally came in a box from a third company. When I opened it and
saw it was made by Norton, I felt uneasy. I realized it was unfair
to mistrust Norton products without verifying what the dealer had said.


Norton is the largest supplier of igniters in the world. They got that
way because of the quality of their parts. They make many millions of
them for every major appliance company. .

St. Gobain-Norton
Powers Street
Milford NH

Why not give them a call?


I can imagine he would sell black-market rejects if he had a
source. It may be downstream from Norton where ignitors are tested
and rejects set aside in their padded boxes. Who would think to
post a guard over junk? What would prevent a vending-machine
servicer, for example, from taking some if he knew who would buy
them?


Companies like Norton take steps to assure that does not happen. They are
smart enough to have a procedure in effect to prevent that. They are a
ISO9000 plant and have a written policy on rejects. I'm sure they will be
glad to review it with you. Please, don't make accusations with no
evidence as you look like a fool grasping at straws and can even leave you
open for a libel suit. I have been in that plant where the igniters are
made. It was 100% perfect when shipped to you.


Ed...I think hes FOS, cause norton does NOT include a decal or paper that
says, and I quote "not to touch the grey glass"
Nope..does not happen..aint in a box we have...
I belive this fella thinks that carbide ignitors are bulletproof, and dont
have whats called cleavage....maybe he outa look that one up.

Oh...and to the OP...we install I dare say 99% of them, never touch the
ignitor by more than the white ceramic base, it never touches anything once
its out of the package and if a 1st year apprentice can do it, anyone
can..trust me. While some are located in some real suck ass places on
CArrier units in particular, it can be done and the only part that gets to
touch anything, is that base and the set screw..or metal snap tang that
holds it in place..its not that hard..just slow, and easy.
Try putting one in a unit in a 30F crawlspace, with under 20 inches of room
to work.


  #55   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
Bob
 
Posts: n/a
Default UPS Fraud in Furnace Parts


"Bubba" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:24:58 -0800, "Bob"
wrote:


"Bubba" wrote in message
Why don't you go back to alt.hvac with the rest of the
losers there. You are of no use here, it seems.

Bob

Wanna make me...............Bobby?
Bubba


Ah! the mouth matches the name so well.

Bob


I'll take that as a "No" pussy.
Bubba


LOL

Bob

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