I am planning an attic mold cleanup-- Conventional wisdom is to use
bleach and water, but when I google it... I get a lot of hits saying
that it is a myth that Bleach kills mold.

The EPA brochure does little to clear it up.

Anyone with any real-world experience or other good info.

Jack wrote:
I am planning an attic mold cleanup-- Conventional wisdom is to use
bleach and water, but when I google it... I get a lot of hits saying
that it is a myth that Bleach kills mold.

The EPA brochure does little to clear it up.

Anyone with any real-world experience or other good info.


I can say for certain it turns it a perly white As for wether or not
its dead, I couldn't say. I don't see why bleach would kill mold, its
not that harsh of a chemical. Perhaps thats why we like to use it.



--
Respectfully,


CL Gilbert

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door() into
the sheepfold{}, but climbeth up some other *way, the same is a thief
and a robber."

GnuPG Key Fingerprint:
82A6 8893 C2A1 F64E A9AD 19AE 55B2 4CD7 80D2 0A2D

Bleach may kill what it comes in contact with but much of the mold is inside
the wood and once the bleach dries, it is no longer effective. Using enough
bleach to saturate the wood may harm and certainly could change the color of
the wood itself. Fungacides continue to work after the liquid carrier has
dried.



"CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert" wrote in message
...
Jack wrote:
I am planning an attic mold cleanup-- Conventional wisdom is to use
bleach and water, but when I google it... I get a lot of hits saying
that it is a myth that Bleach kills mold.

The EPA brochure does little to clear it up.

Anyone with any real-world experience or other good info.


I can say for certain it turns it a perly white As for wether or not
its dead, I couldn't say. I don't see why bleach would kill mold, its not
that harsh of a chemical. Perhaps thats why we like to use it.



--
Respectfully,


CL Gilbert

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door() into
the sheepfold{}, but climbeth up some other *way, the same is a thief and
a robber."

GnuPG Key Fingerprint:
82A6 8893 C2A1 F64E A9AD 19AE 55B2 4CD7 80D2 0A2D

I discussed this subject with a PhD Molecular Biologist who assured me
that bleach does kill mold. Treat it with a watered down solution
(don't remember the ratio). Let it dry. Do it again. Let it dry. Do
it a third time.

Of course, the mold is there because it's damp. Treating the symptoms
without fixing the cause won't help.


-rev



Jack wrote:
I am planning an attic mold cleanup-- Conventional wisdom is to use
bleach and water, but when I google it... I get a lot of hits saying
that it is a myth that Bleach kills mold.

The EPA brochure does little to clear it up.

Anyone with any real-world experience or other good info.

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:57:37 -0500, "CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert"
wrote:

Jack wrote:
I am planning an attic mold cleanup-- Conventional wisdom is to use
bleach and water, but when I google it... I get a lot of hits saying
that it is a myth that Bleach kills mold.

The EPA brochure does little to clear it up.

Anyone with any real-world experience or other good info.


I can say for certain it turns it a perly white As for wether or not

It didn't turn my mold white at all. But I'm almost sure it killed
it. After using bleach twice, I realized I would have to paint again
if I wanted to make it white.

its dead, I couldn't say. I don't see why bleach would kill mold, its
not that harsh of a chemical.

Alcohol is not that harsh either, but it kills germs.

Perhaps thats why we like to use it.


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

The Reverend Natural Light wrote:
I discussed this subject with a PhD Molecular Biologist who assured me
that bleach does kill mold. Treat it with a watered down solution
(don't remember the ratio). Let it dry. Do it again. Let it dry. Do
it a third time.

Of course, the mold is there because it's damp. Treating the symptoms
without fixing the cause won't help.


-rev



Jack wrote:
I am planning an attic mold cleanup-- Conventional wisdom is to use
bleach and water, but when I google it... I get a lot of hits saying
that it is a myth that Bleach kills mold.

The EPA brochure does little to clear it up.

Anyone with any real-world experience or other good info.

I had some black mold spots on bare wood in my attic.

Sprayed 50% water 50% bleach directly on it.

I did nothing else, no brushing no wiping nothing.

I corrected the source of the moisture that casued the problem.

The mold disappeared and has not returned.

Mark

"mm" wrote in message
I don't see why bleach would kill mold, its
not that harsh of a chemical.

Alcohol is not that harsh either, but it kills germs.

Not nearly as well as bleach from what I've read.

Bob

Jack, 11/30/2005,4:58:09 PM, wrote:

I am planning an attic mold cleanup-- Conventional wisdom is to use
bleach and water, but when I google it... I get a lot of hits saying
that it is a myth that Bleach kills mold.

The EPA brochure does little to clear it up.

Anyone with any real-world experience or other good info.

I just returned from Mississippi where the houses are damaged by the
storm surge from Hurricane Katrina. What I saw down there was that the
walls and insulation had been removed to air out the studs. The
residents told me they spray bleach/water solution and wait 2-3 weeks
for the mold to die. The houses we worked on did not have mold in the
wall studs. I did see houses where mold was still visible but that was
because no work had been down yet to them.

--
"Golf is like an 18-year-old girl with big boobs. You know it's wrong
but you can't keep away from her." -- Val Doonican

depends on what kind of alcohol and how dilute.

I doubt a bottle of vodka would do much and 70% Isopropyl would be better
but Straight Methanol or 198 proof Ethanol (or denatured ethanol) would work
pretty good. Notice how doctors use similar before giving you a shot.

Alcohol is not advised as it may deteriorate the plastic or synthetic parts.
Alcohol diluted by a tub of water would probably be ineffective alltogether.
Try brewing a batch of bathtub gin.

These tubs have been around a long time. I'm sure if there were a real
health risk, it would have destroyed that market by now.

Bleach works well diluted in water at almost any concentration (you can
smell) it will kill microorganisms.




"Bob" wrote in message
...

"mm" wrote in message
I don't see why bleach would kill mold, its
not that harsh of a chemical.

Alcohol is not that harsh either, but it kills germs.

Not nearly as well as bleach from what I've read.

Bob

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:18:29 -0800, "Bob"
wrote:


"mm" wrote in message
I don't see why bleach would kill mold, its
not that harsh of a chemical.

Alcohol is not that harsh either, but it kills germs.

Not nearly as well as bleach from what I've read.

That would just make stronger my point about bleach.

Although when the nurse gives me a shot, she's never wiped my arm with
bleach.


Bob



Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

On 01 Dec 2005 01:35:51 GMT, "badgolferman"
wrote:

Jack, 11/30/2005,4:58:09 PM, wrote:

I am planning an attic mold cleanup-- Conventional wisdom is to use
bleach and water, but when I google it... I get a lot of hits saying
that it is a myth that Bleach kills mold.

The EPA brochure does little to clear it up.

Anyone with any real-world experience or other good info.

I just returned from Mississippi where the houses are damaged by the
storm surge from Hurricane Katrina. What I saw down there was that the
walls and insulation had been removed to air out the studs. The
residents told me they spray bleach/water solution and wait 2-3 weeks
for the mold to die. The houses we worked on did not have mold in the
wall studs. I did see houses where mold was still visible but that was
because no work had been down yet to them.

And I have experience also with moss, on my fence. The picket fence
is 25 years old and some parts get very little sun. A lot of that
part has moss growing on the rails. I sprayed with the recommended
concentration of bleach, and it didn't do much. So I sprayed
strraight bleach, and it killed the moss. Bleached the wood too I
think -- something turned it white. I waited too long, and these
parts will have to be replaced, but I figure it bought me 2 to 4 extra
years.


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

"mm" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:18:29 -0800, "Bob"

wrote:


"mm" wrote in message
I don't see why bleach would kill mold, its not that
harsh of a chemical.
Alcohol is not that harsh either, but it kills germs.
Not nearly as well as bleach from what I've read.

That would just make stronger my point about bleach.
Although when the nurse gives me a shot, she's never wiped
my arm with
bleach.

And you are probably glad she didn't. It is pretty caustic,
and it stinks. Many people would have reactions to it I
would guess. When I donate blood, they use iodine. Every
such agent has its uses. Bleach just happens to be more
available, and cheaper than many others. Alcohol probably
does a sufficient job of cleaning injection sites. It
disolves oils well. It then evaporates quickly so it doesn't
enter your body.

A friend of mine some years ago was a med-tech. She told me
that her lab did their own tests of a number of "steralizing
agents", and she was surprised how poorly the alcohol did in
the tests.

Bob

CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert wrote:
Jack wrote:

I am planning an attic mold cleanup-- Conventional wisdom is to use
bleach and water, but when I google it... I get a lot of hits saying
that it is a myth that Bleach kills mold.

The EPA brochure does little to clear it up.

Anyone with any real-world experience or other good info.


I can say for certain it turns it a perly white As for wether or not
its dead, I couldn't say. I don't see why bleach would kill mold, its
not that harsh of a chemical. Perhaps thats why we like to use it.




I suggest that you thoroughly wash your hands in
concentrated bleach and then say it isn't harsh.
That soapy slimy feeling is your skin dissolving.

Jack wrote:
I am planning an attic mold cleanup-- Conventional wisdom is to use
bleach and water, but when I google it... I get a lot of hits saying
that it is a myth that Bleach kills mold.

The EPA brochure does little to clear it up.

Anyone with any real-world experience or other good info.


I don't know about the use in an attic, but bleach
is a standard disinfectant (meaning it kills
stuff) used in laboratories. Standard bleach is
5-6 percent Sodium hypochlorite. The killing
power varies with the strength and the time in
contact. Straight out of the bottle takes contact
of less than a minute, diluted with 1/5 with water
you need a contact of about 15 minutes to kill all
microorganisms. I'm not sure how long the stuff
would remain liquid if you spray it in the attic,
but it wouldn't be very long, so I would spray
undiluted stuff.

Bob wrote:
"mm" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:18:29 -0800, "Bob"



wrote:


"mm" wrote in message

I don't see why bleach would kill mold, its not that

harsh of a chemical.

Alcohol is not that harsh either, but it kills germs.

Not nearly as well as bleach from what I've read.


That would just make stronger my point about bleach.
Although when the nurse gives me a shot, she's never wiped

my arm with

bleach.


And you are probably glad she didn't. It is pretty caustic,
and it stinks. Many people would have reactions to it I
would guess. When I donate blood, they use iodine. Every
such agent has its uses. Bleach just happens to be more
available, and cheaper than many others. Alcohol probably
does a sufficient job of cleaning injection sites. It
disolves oils well. It then evaporates quickly so it doesn't
enter your body.

A friend of mine some years ago was a med-tech. She told me
that her lab did their own tests of a number of "steralizing
agents", and she was surprised how poorly the alcohol did in
the tests.

Bob


How about some real information. Iodine is pretty
harsh. Alcohol is not used for cleaning, it is
used to kill the microorganisms so that you don't
push live organism under the skin when you stick a
needle in. The best concentration of alcohol is
about 70 percent (140 proof), a higher
concentration is less effective. All of this has
been know for decades. Bleach is highly
effective. Why did the lab where the med tech
worked do their own tests? This information is
widely published in all sorts of journals and
pamphlets put out by lab materials sellers.

George E. Cawthon wrote:

sniphe
best concentration of alcohol is about 70 percent (140 proof), a higher
concentration is less effective. snip

Curiosity question: why is higher concentration less effective?

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Bleach does kill mold, by removing its Oxygen. Common bleach is 97-98%
water therefore I dont dilute. If I dilute I notice I must often double
treat an area of concrete I do every year. If conditions are not
remedied mold comes back , because its airborn and everywhere. Bleach
penetrates wood just like any other treatment but looses its efectivness
when it evaporates.

try the cdc pages at:
http://www.cdc.gov/mold/cleanup.htm
and the simple poster pdf at :
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/disasters/pdf/...id-of-mold.pdf

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:31:26 -0800, "Bob"
wrote:


"mm" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:18:29 -0800, "Bob"

wrote:


"mm" wrote in message
I don't see why bleach would kill mold, its not that
harsh of a chemical.
Alcohol is not that harsh either, but it kills germs.
Not nearly as well as bleach from what I've read.

That would just make stronger my point about bleach.
Although when the nurse gives me a shot, she's never wiped
my arm with
bleach.

And you are probably glad she didn't. It is pretty caustic,
and it stinks. Many people would have reactions to it I
would guess. When I donate blood, they use iodine. Every
such agent has its uses. Bleach just happens to be more
available, and cheaper than many others. Alcohol probably
does a sufficient job of cleaning injection sites. It
disolves oils well. It then evaporates quickly so it doesn't
enter your body.

A friend of mine some years ago was a med-tech. She told me
that her lab did their own tests of a number of "steralizing
agents", and she was surprised how poorly the alcohol did in
the tests.

I never claimed to know all the ins and outs of alcohol or bleach. I
raised alcohol because it's a not a harsh chemical and yet it is
strong enough to kill germs. Similarly, bleach is not disqualified
from being able to kill mold *just because* it is not harsh. Like you
just said, "Every such agent has its uses." Others have posted
convincingly that bleach *does* kill mold. So that's good enough for
me..

But since bleach has come up, I'll mention that I noticed that Clorox
Bleach as currently sold here, has no chloriine in it. I think it has
another halogen instead. I was surprised. Then I noticed that Clorox
is spelled without an H.

I though that maybe chlorine had been banned because of safety
reasons, but I checked other bleaches and at least one had chlorine in
it. So why is this?

I suspect I'm overly influenced into thinking chlorine is important
because of the common term "chlorine bleach", but why is there more
than one kind now and does either one have any advantages over
another?


Bob


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

But since bleach has come up, I'll mention that I noticed that Clorox
Bleach as currently sold here, has no chloriine in it. I think it has
another halogen instead. I was surprised. Then I noticed that Clorox
is spelled without an H.

I though that maybe chlorine had been banned because of safety
reasons, but I checked other bleaches and at least one had chlorine in
it. So why is this?

I suspect I'm overly influenced into thinking chlorine is important
because of the common term "chlorine bleach", but why is there more
than one kind now and does either one have any advantages over
another?

There have always been bleaching agents other than chlorine.
Including fermented urine for bleaching leather, where I'm
pretty sure the active agent in ammonia.

Laundry bleaches now include things other than chlorine
ostensibly because chlorine is hard on cloth and dyes,
and they've found whitening/brightening agents that work
better with less fading and damage to the cloth.

I'm pretty sure that clorox still sells a chlorine-bleach
too, you just have to check the label to make sure which
you're getting. Non-chlorine bleaches should not be used
to shock your well....

In article , NOPSAMmm2005
@bigfoot.com says...

I though that maybe chlorine had been banned because of safety
reasons, but I checked other bleaches and at least one had chlorine in
it. So why is this?

I suspect I'm overly influenced into thinking chlorine is important
because of the common term "chlorine bleach", but why is there more
than one kind now and does either one have any advantages over
another?


You can find the active ingredients of many common bleaches at the
National Institutes of Health,

http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov...sehold/search?
tbl=type&queryx=Bleach&prodcat=all

Looking over the list, Clorox makes quite a few bleaches that aren't
chlorine bleach, but still quite a few standard sodium hypochlorite
bleaches as well.

Non-chlorine bleaches are marketed as being "color safe," they won't
fade many dyes that are susceptible to chlorine bleaches. They can
also be safer for some fabrics that react badly to chlorine bleach.
More recently, non-chlorine bleaches have also been marketed for
environmental concerns.


--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

In article 0cxjf.110669$qk4.56231@bgtnsc05-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net, says...

I don't know about the use in an attic, but bleach
is a standard disinfectant (meaning it kills
stuff) used in laboratories. Standard bleach is
5-6 percent Sodium hypochlorite. The killing
power varies with the strength and the time in
contact. Straight out of the bottle takes contact
of less than a minute, diluted with 1/5 with water
you need a contact of about 15 minutes to kill all
microorganisms. I'm not sure how long the stuff
would remain liquid if you spray it in the attic,
but it wouldn't be very long, so I would spray
undiluted stuff.

Probably should be obvious, but if you're going to spray undiluted
bleach in a confined space, you don't really want to bleach the
inside of your lungs by breathing bleach mist. Wear a suitable
respirator.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Infrared Photography Gallery:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/ir.html

Bleaches, more than one, are suggested in woodworking forums for
question/answer dialogues. Oxalic acid bleaches out the black stain
when iron residue meets the tannins in oak and other woods, household
bleach is suggested for minor bleaching to obtain a lighter tone of
raw wood and swimming pool bleach is suggested for a more dramatic
change in raw wood. Right tool for the right job.

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 10:23:13 -0500, mm
wrote:

I suspect I'm overly influenced into thinking chlorine is important
because of the common term "chlorine bleach", but why is there more
than one kind now and does either one have any advantages over
another?

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:09:52 -0800, Joshua Putnam
wrote:


Looking over the list, Clorox makes quite a few bleaches that aren't
chlorine bleach, but still quite a few standard sodium hypochlorite
bleaches as well.

Sadly for me, I wasn't as complete as I should have been.

Non-chlorine bleaches are marketed as being "color safe," they won't

This wasn't marked color-safe, and is sold in the standard bottle
which used to sell Clorox chlorine bleach.

It almost certainly isn't color safe, because in place of chlorine is
another similar element, for a compound something like sodium
hypofluorite. It's the exchange of chlorine for a similar but still
different element that suprised me.

fade many dyes that are susceptible to chlorine bleaches. They can
also be safer for some fabrics that react badly to chlorine bleach.
More recently, non-chlorine bleaches have also been marketed for
environmental concerns.



Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

CJT wrote:
George E. Cawthon wrote:

sniphe

best concentration of alcohol is about 70 percent (140 proof), a
higher concentration is less effective. snip


Curiosity question: why is higher concentration less effective?

To really understand you have to know the
structure of microorganisms and what the alcohol
does. Here is the simple answer. Higher
concentrations cause the the cell walls of
bacteria to become impenetrable stopping entry of
the alcohol and dessication of the cell.

mm wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:31:26 -0800, "Bob"
wrote:


"mm" wrote in message
. ..

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:18:29 -0800, "Bob"



wrote:


"mm" wrote in message

I don't see why bleach would kill mold, its not that

harsh of a chemical.

Alcohol is not that harsh either, but it kills germs.

Not nearly as well as bleach from what I've read.

That would just make stronger my point about bleach.
Although when the nurse gives me a shot, she's never wiped

my arm with

bleach.

And you are probably glad she didn't. It is pretty caustic,
and it stinks. Many people would have reactions to it I
would guess. When I donate blood, they use iodine. Every
such agent has its uses. Bleach just happens to be more
available, and cheaper than many others. Alcohol probably
does a sufficient job of cleaning injection sites. It
disolves oils well. It then evaporates quickly so it doesn't
enter your body.

A friend of mine some years ago was a med-tech. She told me
that her lab did their own tests of a number of "steralizing
agents", and she was surprised how poorly the alcohol did in
the tests.


I never claimed to know all the ins and outs of alcohol or bleach. I
raised alcohol because it's a not a harsh chemical and yet it is
strong enough to kill germs. Similarly, bleach is not disqualified
from being able to kill mold *just because* it is not harsh. Like you
just said, "Every such agent has its uses." Others have posted
convincingly that bleach *does* kill mold. So that's good enough for
me..

But since bleach has come up, I'll mention that I noticed that Clorox
Bleach as currently sold here, has no chloriine in it. I think it has
another halogen instead. I was surprised. Then I noticed that Clorox
is spelled without an H.

I though that maybe chlorine had been banned because of safety
reasons, but I checked other bleaches and at least one had chlorine in
it. So why is this?

I suspect I'm overly influenced into thinking chlorine is important
because of the common term "chlorine bleach", but why is there more
than one kind now and does either one have any advantages over
another?



Bob



Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

Maybe you are confused because there are so many
different products, e.g., no splash, regular, non
chlorine, etc. I think I saw at least 7 different
formulations all called Chlorox.

Regular bleach is what everyone is talking about,
not some substitute that is intended to make
colors brighter. Regular bleach is Sodium
hypochlorite which ruins cottons by turning them
yellow. So there are other "bleaches" that
contain other substances including enzymes for
special purposes.

If you are smart enough to know the word "halogen"
then you should be smart enough to know what
chlorine bleach is. There may be some products
with bromine or iodine, but I wouldn't want to use
them on my clothes. And certainly, none have
fluorine in them.

Way to confuse the issue, but may serves a
purpose. Lot of things will lighten colors but
they are not called bleach The only kind of
bleach that is used to kill microorganisms is
chlorine bleach. Just to confuse the issue, lots
of other things including alcohol and other
substances, e.g. betadine, are used to kill
microorganism but they aren't bleaches.
Until only the past few years, laundry bleach or
justs bleach commonly meant a solution of sodium
hypochorite.

nospambob wrote:
Bleaches, more than one, are suggested in woodworking forums for
question/answer dialogues. Oxalic acid bleaches out the black stain
when iron residue meets the tannins in oak and other woods, household
bleach is suggested for minor bleaching to obtain a lighter tone of
raw wood and swimming pool bleach is suggested for a more dramatic
change in raw wood. Right tool for the right job.

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 10:23:13 -0500, mm
wrote:


I suspect I'm overly influenced into thinking chlorine is important
because of the common term "chlorine bleach", but why is there more
than one kind now and does either one have any advantages over
another?

mm wrote:
On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:09:52 -0800, Joshua Putnam
wrote:


Looking over the list, Clorox makes quite a few bleaches that aren't
chlorine bleach, but still quite a few standard sodium hypochlorite
bleaches as well.


Sadly for me, I wasn't as complete as I should have been.

Non-chlorine bleaches are marketed as being "color safe," they won't


This wasn't marked color-safe, and is sold in the standard bottle
which used to sell Clorox chlorine bleach.

It almost certainly isn't color safe, because in place of chlorine is
another similar element, for a compound something like sodium
hypofluorite. It's the exchange of chlorine for a similar but still
different element that suprised me.

Bull ****. I think this is all a troll. No one
would substitute sodium hypofluorite for sodium
hypochlorite. Not sure that sodium hypofluorite
exist under normal conditions.

In article 6UMjf.113001$qk4.70918@bgtnsc05-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net, says...

If you are smart enough to know the word "halogen"
then you should be smart enough to know what
chlorine bleach is. There may be some products
with bromine or iodine, but I wouldn't want to use
them on my clothes. And certainly, none have
fluorine in them.

Actually, "Whink" rust stain remover, usually found either in the
laundry aisle or in the bathroom cleaners section, is hydrofluoric
acid in a plastic squeeze bottle. Strong enough concentration to
etch many porcelain fixtures, but it does remove rust stains quite
well. Just avoid those nasty HF burns....

(And people say bleach would be hard on your skin ;-)

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Infrared Photography Books List:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/irbooks.html

Joshua Putnam wrote:
In article 6UMjf.113001$qk4.70918@bgtnsc05-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net, says...


If you are smart enough to know the word "halogen"
then you should be smart enough to know what
chlorine bleach is. There may be some products
with bromine or iodine, but I wouldn't want to use
them on my clothes. And certainly, none have
fluorine in them.


Actually, "Whink" rust stain remover, usually found either in the
laundry aisle or in the bathroom cleaners section, is hydrofluoric
acid in a plastic squeeze bottle. Strong enough concentration to
etch many porcelain fixtures, but it does remove rust stains quite
well. Just avoid those nasty HF burns....

(And people say bleach would be hard on your skin ;-)


I have never seen that product and couldn't
believe it contain HF, so I googled. That is just
unbelievable that a commercial product like that
contains HF.

I can see how you looked for a product that
contains fluorine from my statement. But, my
statement was directed at bleaches and HF is not a
bleach. I would think that any compound
considered a bleach with fluorine in it would be
highly unstable.

Yep HF would get rid of iron stains, by dissolving
it, but excepting some waxes (which HF used to be
shipped in wax bottles) and plastics, it dissolves
just about everything including what the rust
stain was on and you. This HF must be pretty dilute.

"Jack" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am planning an attic mold cleanup-- Conventional wisdom is to use
bleach and water, but when I google it... I get a lot of hits saying
that it is a myth that Bleach kills mold.

The EPA brochure does little to clear it up.

Anyone with any real-world experience or other good info.


Tim-bor.

Some additional remarks:

I would prefer denaturated alcohol, its cheap and does work well by
penetrating in the deep of the molded material and takes out the
water of it and so dehydrates the mold what kills it. Besides, it is
not harming the user.

But much more important is the question of the reason for mold
growing. Here a lot of mistakes in thinking and doing are usual.
Mostly the room is sealed with airtight windows and a heating system
and technique, which first warms up the air and later the material
(wall, ceiling, ...) and will cool off the exterior walls every
night. So I would recommend putting out the upper rubber of airtight
windows, permanent heating and often this both gets rid with mold
attack. Some further advice I have done in the linked info:

Mold attack - A
Guide

On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 01:43:04 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:

mm wrote:
On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:09:52 -0800, Joshua Putnam
wrote:


Looking over the list, Clorox makes quite a few bleaches that aren't
chlorine bleach, but still quite a few standard sodium hypochlorite
bleaches as well.


Sadly for me, I wasn't as complete as I should have been.

Non-chlorine bleaches are marketed as being "color safe," they won't


This wasn't marked color-safe, and is sold in the standard bottle
which used to sell Clorox chlorine bleach.

It almost certainly isn't color safe, because in place of chlorine is
another similar element, for a compound something like sodium
hypofluorite. It's the exchange of chlorine for a similar but still
different element that suprised me.

Bull ****. I think this is all a troll. No one

It's not a troll and there's no need for your vulgarity.

would substitute sodium hypofluorite for sodium
hypochlorite. Not sure that sodium hypofluorite
exist under normal conditions.

Well I said "something like sodium
hypofluorite ". Since you don't think that is likely, I went
to the basement, but I finished that container of bleach. So I was
going to the grocery anyhow tonight and I looked for bleach.

All of Clorox's regular bleaches** have gone back to using sodium
hypochlorite, but out of the blue I recalled more or all of what my
previous gallon had in it, sodium hyposulfite, or at the very least
some salt of some sulfite.

Before, when I said fluorite, I was only considering halogens. I
looked for info about sodium hyposulfite and Britannica had a short
bit about common sodium compounds, and all it said was" Sodium
thiosulfate (sodium hyposulfite), Na2S2O3, is used by photographers to
fix developed negatives and prints; it acts by dissolving the
unchanged silver salts." In other words, hypo. Another page also
gives no other use for it.

There is also sodium bisulfite, but that seems also to be used as
photographic hypo and nothing else.

There is also sodium sulfide, and one of the "photographic formulas"
for that is called Dassonville T-56 Bleach. The only use of the
word bleach on the whole page, but still related to photography.
OTOH, this was Jack's Photographic and Chemistry Site, so maybe he is
concerned wityh photography.

A page under www.bookrags.com has " Sodium chlorite, hypochlorite,
perborate, and peroxide are used to bleach paper, cotton, and rayon.
Sodium hyposulfite is used in the reduction of certain dyes. Sodium
thiosulfate is used to dissolve unreduced silver salts in photographic
processes. Sodium sulfide is used as a depilatory and in the
manufacture of sulfur dyes." This guy doesn't seem to know that
hyposulfite and thiosulphate are, accoding to Jack's site, the same
thing.

Other sites call hyposulfite a [deliquescent] ["hypo", photography],
I haven't looked up deliquescent.

Any ideas why it was used in Clorox? There was an 800 number on the
Chlorox bottle, but this strikes me as just the sort of thing they
won't know anything about.

I'll try to remember to call on Monday.


**not Clorox 2, for example, which IS called color-safe. I was
talking about "regular bleach", a term they use on the Clorox label.

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

Joshua Putnam wrote:
Actually, "Whink" rust stain remover, usually found either in the
laundry aisle or in the bathroom cleaners section, is hydrofluoric
acid in a plastic squeeze bottle. Strong enough concentration to
etch many porcelain fixtures, but it does remove rust stains quite
well. Just avoid those nasty HF burns....

It's not quite that nice. Google on "hydrofluoric acid amputate" or
"hydrofluoric acid multi organ failure".

--
If John McCain gets the 2008 Republican Presidential nomination,
my vote for President will be a write-in for Jiang Zemin.

Jack wrote:
I am planning an attic mold cleanup-- Conventional wisdom is to use
bleach and water, but when I google it... I get a lot of hits saying
that it is a myth that Bleach kills mold.

The last place I lived (apartment) had windows that leaked incredibly
badly. After a few years there was mold inside the walls, which of
course got washed out and onto our carpet when it rained good. I asked
an amateur mycologist of my acquaintance how to get rid of it, and he
said, "bleach." When I said that's fine for the walls but would discolor
the carpet, he replied, "vinegar." Both worked.

--
If John McCain gets the 2008 Republican Presidential nomination,
my vote for President will be a write-in for Jiang Zemin.

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:57:37 -0500, "CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert"
wrote:

:Jack wrote:
: I am planning an attic mold cleanup-- Conventional wisdom is to use
: bleach and water, but when I google it... I get a lot of hits saying
: that it is a myth that Bleach kills mold.
:
: The EPA brochure does little to clear it up.
:
: Anyone with any real-world experience or other good info.
:
:
:I can say for certain it turns it a perly white As for wether or not
:its dead, I couldn't say. I don't see why bleach would kill mold, its
:not that harsh of a chemical. Perhaps thats why we like to use it.

Undoubtedly, bleach is a very effective fungicide (i.e. it kills mold
DEAD). Of course, like any poison, it depends on the strength you use.
You don't have to and shouldn't use full strength bleach to kill mold.
Even full strength from the bottles they sell, it's around 5% sodium
hypochlorite. For an effective fungicide, use ~25% solution of that -
i.e. 1 part bleach from the bottle, 3 parts water. Now even that's
pretty potent and you could use a weaker solution effectively, is my
opinion.

"Dan_Musicant" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:57:37 -0500, "CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert"
wrote:

:Jack wrote:
: I am planning an attic mold cleanup-- Conventional wisdom is to use
: bleach and water, but when I google it... I get a lot of hits saying
: that it is a myth that Bleach kills mold.
:
: The EPA brochure does little to clear it up.
:
: Anyone with any real-world experience or other good info.
:
:
:I can say for certain it turns it a perly white As for wether or not
:its dead, I couldn't say. I don't see why bleach would kill mold, its
:not that harsh of a chemical. Perhaps thats why we like to use it.


Try cleaning with it full strength, without using gloves. Its a damn
good thing its not very harsh because the burns it gives bare skin aint
very fun


Undoubtedly, bleach is a very effective fungicide (i.e. it kills mold
DEAD). Of course, like any poison, it depends on the strength you use.
You don't have to and shouldn't use full strength bleach to kill mold.
Even full strength from the bottles they sell, it's around 5% sodium
hypochlorite. For an effective fungicide, use ~25% solution of that -
i.e. 1 part bleach from the bottle, 3 parts water. Now even that's
pretty potent and you could use a weaker solution effectively, is my
opinion.

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 15:06:35 GMT, Dan_Musicant
wrote:

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:57:37 -0500, "CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert"
wrote:

:Jack wrote:
: I am planning an attic mold cleanup-- Conventional wisdom is to use
: bleach and water, but when I google it... I get a lot of hits saying
: that it is a myth that Bleach kills mold.
:
: The EPA brochure does little to clear it up.
:
: Anyone with any real-world experience or other good info.
:
:
:I can say for certain it turns it a perly white As for wether or not
:its dead, I couldn't say. I don't see why bleach would kill mold, its
:not that harsh of a chemical. Perhaps thats why we like to use it.

Here's a paragraph from the Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention:

"Clean Mold Growth Off Hard Surfaces

Mold growth on hard surfaces [Examples: floors, stoves, sinks, certain
toys, countertops, flatware, plates, and tools]

Mix 1 cup of bleach in 1 gallon of water.
Wash the item with the bleach mixture.
If the surface of the item is rough, scrub the surface with a stiff
brush.
Rinse the item with clean water.
Dry the item or leave it out to dry. "

For more information see:
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/disasters/mold/protect.asp

In article 2005120909311243658-nobody@verizonnet,
says...
On 2005-12-01 10:23:13 -0500, mm said:


But since bleach has come up, I'll mention that I noticed that Clorox
Bleach as currently sold here, has no chloriine in it.

Yes it does. It's called sodium hypochlorite.

Pure chlorine is a gas at standard temperature and pressure, so you
would need a gas cylinder, not a plastic jug, to contain it.


Guessing they mean Clorox All Fabric Bleach...Triethanolamine, Hydrogen
peroxide and Benzenesulfonic acid, C10-C16-alkyl derivatives are the AI.

Clorox 2 ... Subtilisin (proteolytic enzyme), Sodium perborate
tetrahydrate and Benzenesulfonic acid, C10-C16-alkyl derivatives seem to
be the AI
--
Lar

Oh, if only Noah would of been a bit more wise,
he surely would of swatted those two flies.

to email....get rid of the BUGS

In article 200512090934148930-nobody@verizonnet,
says...
On 2005-12-02 02:57:41 -0500, Joshua Putnam said:



Actually, "Whink" rust stain remover, usually found either in the
laundry aisle or in the bathroom cleaners section, is hydrofluoric acid
in a plastic squeeze bottle

Sorry, pal, I think you're mistaken. HF is some NASTY stuff...it eats
through GLASS.

Sorry, but it really is weak HF in a convenient plastic squeeze
bottle. See for yourself, MSDS on-line at
http://www.whink.com/msdsrr.pdf

Quoting from the MSDS:

Acute Toxicity: Severe eye irritant. Causes serious injury to skin
which may not be immediately painful or visible. Causes respiratory
irritation and is toxic by ingestion.

Chronic Toxicity: May cause bone and joint changes in humans
(Fluorosis).

In all cases, contact a physician immediately. For ingestion, drink
large amounts of water or milk. For eye and skin contact, flush
immediately for 15 minutes with water. Hydrofluoric acid burns
require special treatment which may include Calcium Gluconate
injection to prevent serious injury.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html