Hi, my house's windows gets wet in the inside all the time and sometime, it
forms ice. what can i do to get rid of it?
I have some aluminum windows and some wood.

"glukane" wrote in message
. ..
Hi, my house's windows gets wet in the inside all the time and sometime,
it
forms ice. what can i do to get rid of it?
I have some aluminum windows and some wood.

This is condensation due to relatively high humidity or still air in the
room, and cool temps outside, just as droplets form directly from
surrounding air, on a glass of cold water. Storm windows or double pane
replacement windows will reduce condensation by lessening the temperature
drop across the inner window. Other more frugal measures would be to lower
humidity by increasing air circulation and ventilation inside, through
window-directed fans, open windows, and perhaps, an inside electric
dehumidifier.

"glukane" wrote:

Hi, my house's windows gets wet in the inside all the time...

Get rid of the moisture source.

Nick

Nick says "get rid of the moisture source" well nick you dont need one
to have aluminum single or dual pane to condense, unless you mean get
rid of the house.

m Ransley wrote:

Nick says "get rid of the moisture source" well nick you dont need one
to have aluminum single or dual pane to condense...

I disagree.

Nick

I agree with Nick on this one. Making the house cooler will not help
unless you do it with an air conditioner or dehumidifier to remove some
of the moisture. You want to LOWER the dew point, not raise it.
Getting rid of the moisture source is the best way to lower the dew
point inside the house. Using better windows would also help, by
raising the indoor surface temperature of the windows above the dew
point. You could also put plastic film over the inside or outside of
the windows would also help, as Vaughn & Joseph stated. Raising the
temperature in the house would also help raise the inside surface
temperature of the windows, but that could get quite expensive.

Stretch

In article , "glukane" wrote:
Hi, my house's windows gets wet in the inside all the time and sometime, it
forms ice. what can i do to get rid of it?

Storm windows.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:28:28 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "glukane" wrote:
Hi, my house's windows gets wet in the inside all the time and sometime, it
forms ice. what can i do to get rid of it?

Storm windows.

Or reduce your humidity. Should have 40% or less.

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:11:06 -0500,
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:28:28 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "glukane" wrote:
Hi, my house's windows gets wet in the inside all the time and sometime, it
forms ice. what can i do to get rid of it?

Storm windows.

Or reduce your humidity. Should have 40% or less.

40% or less? Is that guaranteed to prevent condensation?

What's the ideal humidity between 16-21C for comfortable living?

cheers,
Pete.

Pete, the ideal RH for you may be higher than the ideal Relative
Humidity for your windows. It depends on the windows, how cold it is
outside, how warm it is inside, how your house is constructed and the
people who live there. It can't really be answered over the internet.
Most people would prefer 35 to 45% RH. The windows may sweat under
those conditions.

Stretch

We installed an HRV last winter for that same reason, windows so wet that on
very cold days, ice would form.
We had to chisel the ice off the bottom of the patio door in order to open
it on extreme cold day. (Canada)
The HRV works fine and has helped. BUT!!! the humidity is at 36% now and it
is only -7 Celcius outside which isn't very cold and the windows have
condensation at the bottom again.
I think our windows where either or both : very cheap and poorly installed.
"Stretch" wrote in message
oups.com...
Pete, the ideal RH for you may be higher than the ideal Relative
Humidity for your windows. It depends on the windows, how cold it is
outside, how warm it is inside, how your house is constructed and the
people who live there. It can't really be answered over the internet.
Most people would prefer 35 to 45% RH. The windows may sweat under
those conditions.

Stretch

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 10:55:58 +0000, Pete C
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:11:06 -0500,
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:28:28 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "glukane" wrote:
Hi, my house's windows gets wet in the inside all the time and sometime, it
forms ice. what can i do to get rid of it?

Storm windows.

Or reduce your humidity. Should have 40% or less.

40% or less? Is that guaranteed to prevent condensation?

Not guaranteed - but pretty darn close.

What's the ideal humidity between 16-21C for comfortable living?

cheers,
Pete.
see:
http://www.historichomeworks.com/hhw...recontrol.html

where it says:
"Indoor Humidity
The most critical item in preventing moisture damage is to keep indoor
relative humidity at reasonable levels during the heating season.
While exceptionally dry conditions may cause respiratory problems and
shrinking of wood furniture or trim, humidities of 30 to 40 percent
appear to prevent these problems. When indoor humidity exceeds 40
percent during cold weather, moisture problems begin to appear. It is
difficult even with proper vapor retarders to construct a house that
will not have condensation problems when indoor humidity exceeds 40
percent. When a house is retrofitted with insulation without the
benefit of vapor retarders and air leakage control, an even lower
humidity may be required. Persistent condensation on double-glazed
windows is a good indicator that relative humidity is too high and may
cause damage to the exterior finish."

Pete C wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:11:06 -0500,
wrote:


On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:28:28 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


In article , "glukane" wrote:

Hi, my house's windows gets wet in the inside all the time and sometime, it
forms ice. what can i do to get rid of it?

Storm windows.

Or reduce your humidity. Should have 40% or less.


40% or less? Is that guaranteed to prevent condensation?

What's the ideal humidity between 16-21C for comfortable living?

cheers,
Pete.

Look on a humidity meter. Ours says indicates
normal from 50 to 75 percent. Humidity in our
house usually runs between 50 and 65 percent. My
wife complains anytime the humidity drops below 50
percent. And no, our windows don't get wet.

Condensation on the glass means that the glass is
cold. To stop condensation increase the
insulation (add more layers of glass) or increase
air circulation.

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 03:32:53 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:

Pete C wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:11:06 -0500,
wrote:


On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:28:28 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


In article , "glukane" wrote:

Hi, my house's windows gets wet in the inside all the time and sometime, it
forms ice. what can i do to get rid of it?

Storm windows.

Or reduce your humidity. Should have 40% or less.


40% or less? Is that guaranteed to prevent condensation?

What's the ideal humidity between 16-21C for comfortable living?

cheers,
Pete.

Look on a humidity meter. Ours says indicates
normal from 50 to 75 percent. Humidity in our
house usually runs between 50 and 65 percent. My
wife complains anytime the humidity drops below 50
percent. And no, our windows don't get wet.

Condensation on the glass means that the glass is
cold. To stop condensation increase the
insulation (add more layers of glass) or increase
air circulation.


George, how cold does it get where you live? Over 50% humidiy here in
winter will get you mold problems and structural damage.

we've tried it all...fan on ceiling, the fireplace on, the heat registers
are below the window and it's double pane glass.
These windows suck!!!

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
Pete C wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:11:06 -0500,
wrote:


On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:28:28 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:


In article , "glukane"
wrote:

Hi, my house's windows gets wet in the inside all the time and
sometime, it
forms ice. what can i do to get rid of it?

Storm windows.

Or reduce your humidity. Should have 40% or less.


40% or less? Is that guaranteed to prevent condensation?

What's the ideal humidity between 16-21C for comfortable living?

cheers,
Pete.

Look on a humidity meter. Ours says indicates normal from 50 to 75
percent. Humidity in our house usually runs between 50 and 65 percent.
My wife complains anytime the humidity drops below 50 percent. And no,
our windows don't get wet.

Condensation on the glass means that the glass is cold. To stop
condensation increase the insulation (add more layers of glass) or
increase air circulation.

Do you mean they leak, condensation or it is raining inside. New quality
windows would be best.

Turn on your exhaust fans before taking a shower or
cooking on the stove. Let them run for a few minutes
after finishing. There are timers just for this purpose
that can replace your standard wall switches.

Don't boil the kettle so long. Don't hang wet clothes
up in the house to dry. Close the bathroom door when
showering. Get better shower curtains. Put a lid on
your pots when cooking and turn the heat down. Make
sure your dryer is vented outside.

Have your furnace checked for heat exchanger leaks.
Make sure you get or have a working CO sensor or get a
professional in to check for carbon monoxide. It can
kill you or make you very sick and you may never know
why.

If the problem is lasting and serious install a heat
exchanger to ventilate your home or at least a
dehumidifier.

If the basement is really damp try putting a rubber
membrane or mat down on the floor and after a few days
see if it is wet underneath. This can indicate whether
it is seeping through you concrete floor. You may be
built on a swamp or spring.


"glukane" wrote in message
. ..
Hi, my house's windows gets wet in the inside all the
time and sometime, it
forms ice. what can i do to get rid of it?
I have some aluminum windows and some wood.

glukane wrote:
Hi, my house's windows gets wet in the inside all the time and
sometime, it forms ice. what can i do to get rid of it?
I have some aluminum windows and some wood.

You get condensation when something is cooler than the dew point for the
humidity in the room.

You can reduce the amount of moisture in the air in the room.(1)

You can make the surfaces warmer. Generally better insulation, more
layers of glass etc. Can you say new insulated windows or storm windows?

BTW Aluminum frames are the worst. The best Aluminum is bad, most of
them are far worse that that.



(1.) Generally making the room cooler will help (humidity does not equal the
amount of moisture, it is the % of the maximum moisture that air at the
measured temperature can hold.) So if you cool the room and do not raise
the humidity number, the air has less moisture and will have a higher dew
point. Lowering the humidity and keeping the temperature the same will also
work.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
m...
You can make the surfaces warmer. Generally better insulation, more layers
of glass etc. Can you say new insulated windows or storm windows?

Temporary plastic film applied as an inside "storm window" can be a
cheaper, low tech, solution.

Vaughn

Vaughn wrote:
"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
m...
You can make the surfaces warmer. Generally better insulation,
more layers of glass etc. Can you say new insulated windows or
storm windows?

Temporary plastic film applied as an inside "storm window" can be
a cheaper, low tech, solution.

Yes they can and I have used them.


Vaughn

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Of course you disagree nick, what else do you do. So what should he "get
rid of" his showers, cooking, family, plants, pets? No his windows, you
don`t even know if humidity is high, but you say lower it, which I
dought is high since construction I bet is loose with those aluminum
frames, and im sure no tyvek.

"glukane" wrote in message
. ..
Hi, my house's windows gets wet in the inside all the time and sometime,
it
forms ice. what can i do to get rid of it?
I have some aluminum windows and some wood.



As others have pointed out, the problem is that the inside air is cooled
when next to the window and moisture condenses out of the air onto the
glass/frame.

You don't mention whether you have double-pane windows, or whatever.
Condensation can be seen as two possible problems. Either there is too much
moisture in the air so the dew point is pretty high, or the inside surfaces
of the glass/frame are so cold that they are below the dew point for even
relatively dry air.

Older aluminum windows had the later problem because aluminum is an
excellent conductor of heat so the inside part of the frame is quite cold
when it's cold outside. Newer ones have a 'thermal break' between the
inside aluminum parts and the outside ones so the inside aluminum frame
doesn't get as cold. You mention ice formation so it sounds to me like that
is your problem, old aluminum windows with no thermal barrier.

The expensive, long-term fix is to replace the windows with newer designs.

But a cheap fix is to go to your favorite dept. store or DIY home center and
look for DIY window treatment plastic. They make a kit of heat-shrinkable
plastic and double-sided tape. You put tape around the inside frame of the
window, put the plastic over it as tight as you can, then use a hot-air gun
(hair dryer works) to shrink the plastic tight/clear. It forms a second
layer of dead air between the plastic and window to act as a storm window.
Will last a winter and save a bundle, and is *cheap*. Do as many windows as
you can.

daestrom

daestrom wrote:

Condensation can be seen as two possible problems. Either there is too much
moisture in the air so the dew point is pretty high, or the inside surfaces
of the glass/frame are so cold that they are below the dew point for even
relatively dry air.

With no moisture source in the house, indoor and outdoor air would have
the same dew point. Minimal moisture from human activities (about 2 gal
per day for a family of 4) wouldn't change this much, for an average US
(224 cfm) air-leaky house.

Nick

wrote in message
...
daestrom wrote:

Condensation can be seen as two possible problems. Either there is too
much
moisture in the air so the dew point is pretty high, or the inside
surfaces
of the glass/frame are so cold that they are below the dew point for even
relatively dry air.

With no moisture source in the house, indoor and outdoor air would have
the same dew point. Minimal moisture from human activities (about 2 gal
per day for a family of 4) wouldn't change this much, for an average US
(224 cfm) air-leaky house.


OTOH, most folks don't like the air that dry in the winter. Some of us
prefer the RH above 30% or so, on a day like today, warming up outside air
(dewpoint 20F) would mean just 14% RH. If the OP is seeing frost forming
occasionally, then the outside temperature must be going below 30F a fair
amount of time (warmed to 71F that's 21% RH).

And adding storm windows (even the plastic I mentioned) will help reduce
heat loss and drafts.

daestrom

and mold... and sinus infections...and...

"daestrom" wrote in
message
...


And adding storm windows (even the plastic I
mentioned) will help reduce
heat loss and drafts.

daestrom

" Solar Flare" wrote in message
...
and mold... and sinus infections...and...


You and Nick are *both* *ASSUMING* the humidity level is too high. I'm
merely pointing out that another explanation is the humidity is okay and the
inside of his windows, if they are single pane, with aluminum frames is too
cold. Think about it.

daestrom

" Solar Flare" wrote in message
...
and mold... and sinus infections...and...


High humidity *could* be the OP's problem and that would lead to some other
issues.

But high humidity alone would *not* lead to *FROST* on the inside of the
window as the OP has. That can only happen if the inside surface of the
window/frame is really cold (32F). With a really cold frame, even 30% RH
inside will condense/frost on the window (dew point for 70F and 30RH is
about 37F).

Adding storm windows will help to reduce heat loss and stop the inside
frame/glass from getting so cold.

daestrom

Some additional remarks to the topic:

1st the condensating at the windows proves too high air humidity which
condensates at colder parts.

2nd to stop condensating by new airtight windows will cause
condensation at the next cooler parts - the interior sites of the
exterior walls. And then mold will follow. So it would be quite good
to have a forced condensation only at the panes.

3rd rip out the upper rubbers of your windows. The little more fresh
air you will get in maybe is enough to reduce the air humidity
without causing structural damage and mold attack.

4th to insulate the exterior walls by usual thermal lightweight
insulation (fiberglass, polyfoam etc.) will not hinder condensation
there and can not help against energy losses in spite of the
industrial point of view.

We have tested this out by experiment ('Lichtenfelser Experiment',
well known in Germany) and practical comparing of appartment houses
with and without additional thermalinsulation. Reason: Thermal
insulation can not stop IR radiation which causes about 99% of warmth
transport. Look to the figure, it shows the temperature at the
opposite of materials after 10 min IR radiation with a redlight bulb.
Materials from above: fiberglass, styrofoam, foamglass, wood fiber
board, solid brick stone, gypsum card board, solid pinewood:

http://www.konrad-fischer-info.de/Test2.gif

Here you can see no effects of additional thermal insulation of
25-appartments-house 6 (blue line) in 1988 to the heating costs - 1
Million Marks has been spent for nothing!

[img:358ddfe6f7]http://www.konrad-fischer-info.de/7tolbri.gif[/img:358ddfe6f7]

The link gives some info to get rid with too much moisture in the
house:

Mold attack - A
Guide

Good luck!

Konrad

KonradFischer wrote:
Some additional remarks to the topic:

1st the condensating at the windows proves too high air humidity which
condensates at colder parts.

Define too high air humidity (how can it be humidity without air? :-)


2nd to stop condensating by new airtight windows will cause
condensation at the next cooler parts - the interior sites of the
exterior walls.

That would only occur if there was no vapor barrier. That's why vapor
barriers are there.

And then mold will follow. So it would be quite good
to have a forced condensation only at the panes.

An interesting dehumidifier. Would it not only cause mold there????


3rd rip out the upper rubbers of your windows. The little more fresh
air you will get in maybe is enough to reduce the air humidity
without causing structural damage and mold attack.

And you did some measurements on this??


4th to insulate the exterior walls by usual thermal lightweight
insulation (fiberglass, polyfoam etc.) will not hinder condensation
there and can not help against energy losses in spite of the
industrial point of view.

Of course it will not stop condensation, that's why we use a vapor
barrier.


We have tested this out by experiment ('Lichtenfelser Experiment',
well known in Germany) and practical comparing of appartment houses
with and without additional thermalinsulation. Reason: Thermal
insulation can not stop IR radiation which causes about 99% of warmth
transport.

That seems to conflict with my physics classes, of course maybe IR has
changed in the last 35 years.

Look to the figure, it shows the temperature at the
opposite of materials after 10 min IR radiation with a redlight bulb.
Materials from above: fiberglass, styrofoam, foamglass, wood fiber
board, solid brick stone, gypsum card board, solid pinewood:

http://www.konrad-fischer-info.de/Test2.gif

Here you can see no effects of additional thermal insulation of
25-appartments-house 6 (blue line) in 1988 to the heating costs - 1
Million Marks has been spent for nothing!

[img:358ddfe6f7]http://www.konrad-fischer-info.de/7tolbri.gif[/img:358ddfe6f7]

The link gives some info to get rid with too much moisture in the
house:

Mold attack - A
Guide

Good luck!

Konrad

I am not sure where you are coming from, but it seems your theories, if
I understand them, are not exactly main stream and seem to conflict with
most available information on the subject, as well as my personal
observations .

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

KonradFischer wrote:

... rip out the upper rubbers of your windows.

BAD idea.

Thermal insulation can not stop IR radiation...

Consider Kirchoff. It certainly can, unless it is transparent.

Nick

Surprised? But true.

Konrad

1st Define too high air humidity (how can it be humidity without
air? :-)

2nd That would only occur if there was no vapor barrier. That's why
vapor
barriers are there.

3rd An interesting dehumidifier. Would it not only cause mold
there????

4th And you did some measurements on this??

5th Of course it will not stop condensation, that's why we use a
vapor
barrier.

6th That seems to conflict with my physics classes, of course maybe
IR has changed in the last 35 years.

7th I am not sure where you are coming from, but it seems your
theories, if I understand them, are not exactly main stream and seem
to conflict with most available information on the subject, as well
as my personal
observations .

--
Joseph Meehan


Thank you Joseph for your sceptic, humorous and open minded point of
view, which I lika a lot. I'll try to answer, please forgive me my
poor english, I am not a native speaker and from Germany:

1st Too high humidity is shown by condensate - if its condensates, its
too high (for the room and construction behaviour, for the inhabitants
security against mold attack) - if not, it may be ok. I will give no
rates/numbers/ranges, because condensate is the important thing. And
in the material pores humidity can condensate 65% RH because of
hydrogen bonds between pore surface and humidity.

2nd Also the vapor barrier is colder than the room air. So it must
condensate inside the barrier if RH is high enough - and in rooms
with airtight windows, certainly this case occurs often enough.

In addition the barriers can not work for long time in lightweight
constructions. Thus constructions move around whole the year, what
damages the fixing/bonding of the barrier and the barrier by itself
is ageing and will be not the same after some time. You know the
cracks in synthetic materials by ageing - this happens in every
barrier material I know.

I saw such cases often, as I am architect for old buildings since over
20 years, planned the restoration in over 400 projects and have
consulting practise all over Germany.

3rd Maybe. But normal people will dry the condensate daily, and clever
people will have better airing and heating to get rid with condensate
by most simple means. The advantage is that condensate at the single
pane is better than and will hinder riskful condensate in wall, floor
and ceiling. Thats it, isn't it?

4th I don't need measurements, I have experienced it in a lot of
consulted problems from my collegues and mine in Germany. Otherwise I
would not say any word about it, believe it or not.

5th see 2nd

6th Good joke ;-) But what have you learnt about IR radiation,
transmisson and conductivity? 'There are three ways of heat losses,
... etc.' I did learn the same. But what about the rates? Nothing.
And you? If you will know something more of my point of view about
this in the thread in popular writing, please post. I don't want to
give annoying huge posts.

7th Its not main stream, but its real live! My (and my scientific
friends) position is well known in Germany and discussed there since
20 years, also in the most important TV broadcasters. Search only my
first name in Google, you will find me on the first page, look
'Altbau' (Old building)- thats my page under the first 3 worldwide.

I would recommend a visit to the link before next round.

http://www.konrad-fischer-info.de/7SCHIM2.JPG
[img:757e427e90]http://www.konrad-fischer-info.de/7SCHI01.JPG[/img:757e427e90]
Condensate and mold in spite of vapor barrier

Thermal insulation
with no effects than mold attack?

Thanks and best wishes!

Konrad

Dear Nick,

thanks for your very critical post. I will add some remarks and as I
suppose that you have not read my upper post I will repeat some
things (sorry for the audience):

To rip out the rubbers is a very good idea and best practise here in
Germany. We have about 50% of all houses attacked by mold. Nearly All
of them have one detail common: airtight windows. A lot of old houses
had never mold, after changing the old windows against airtight ones,
mold attack follows. The ripped off rubber is THE Remedy. And costs
nothing, done by DIY.

I know the results of Gustav Robert Kirchhoff. You should discuss the
result of this experiment, if you will try to refute me in correct
way:

http://www.konrad-fischer-info.de/Test2.gif

It shows the temperature rising of several insulation boards and solid
materials, all 4 cm thick, after 10minutes infra-red radiation by a
redlight buld. Temperature is measured at the opposite of the boards.
From above: fibreglass, styrofoam, foamglass, solid brick, wood fibre
board, gypsum card board, solid pinewood.

Only the solid materials can really hinder IR radiation. The results
of the leightweighter are awful, don't you think so?

Further details he
Thermal insulation,
airtight windows, damp and mold attack

Best regards

Konrad