window getting wet from inside
 

south eastern ontario
wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:45:13 -0500, "boubou"
wrote:

What is the RH meter?

Relative Humidity meter - also known as Hygrometer
What is FUBAR?
F'd up beyond all repair - a Naval term.
construction: 2X6
With what sheathing/siding/insulation? Built when?

and in Ontario, Canada

Where in Ontario?

wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 09:06:48 -0500, "boubou"
wrote:

even 30 % ??
wrote in message
m...
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:51:51 -0500, "boubou"
wrote:

nope, mirror doesn't fog up. Not too much humidity in the house, then
what?
Seems like the answer lies in the glass behing too cold....some other
windows have better insulant between the two panes of glass.

Argon helps- a LITTLE bit - but thermopane basically is thermopane.
Non-conductive spacer bars help with "edge freezing", but if you are
getting wet window panes and ice, your humidity - WHATEVER it is, is
TOO HIGH.

If at 30% you are getting condensation with thermopane windows, first
thing I would do is check your RH meter.

If it is correct, your windows may, indeed, be FUBAR.

Exactly what kind of windows, in what type of home construction, and
where??????

window getting wet from inside
 

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:47:54 -0500, boubou wrote:
south eastern ontario

Please don't top-post, putting your answer before what you're answering
makes the conversation impossible to follow.

window getting wet from inside
 

oh, sorry...didn't realise.

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:47:54 -0500, boubou wrote:
south eastern ontario

Please don't top-post, putting your answer before what you're answering
makes the conversation impossible to follow.

window getting wet from inside
 

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:52:30 -0500, boubou wrote:
oh, sorry...didn't realise.

Nice.

plonk

window getting wet from inside
 

LOL

Another Master of conversation plonks to get attention
his mommy never gave him.

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:52:30 -0500, boubou
wrote:
oh, sorry...didn't realise.

Nice.

plonk

window getting wet from inside
 

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:11:17 -0500, " Solar Flare"
wrote:

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:52:30 -0500, boubou
wrote:
oh, sorry...didn't realise.

Nice.

plonk

LOL

Another Master of conversation plonks to get attention
his mommy never gave him.

As I recall you were plonking people left and right not so long ago. I
remember you plonking me under at least two of your nyms. Perhaps
memory loss is one of your afflictions eh Gymmy Bob, or should we call
you Mr. Pot? http://tinyurl.com/c7495

Wayne

window getting wet from inside
 

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 23:25:10 GMT, wmbjk wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:11:17 -0500, " Solar Flare"

Another Master of conversation plonks to get attention
his mommy never gave him.

As I recall you were plonking people left and right not so long ago. I
remember you plonking me under at least two of your nyms. Perhaps
memory loss is one of your afflictions eh Gymmy Bob, or should we call
you Mr. Pot? http://tinyurl.com/c7495

Ssssh, he thinks he's not recognizable.

window getting wet from inside
 

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:47:54 -0500, "boubou"
wrote:

south eastern ontario
As in east of Toronto, or West of Toronto?
wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:45:13 -0500, "boubou"
wrote:

What is the RH meter?

Relative Humidity meter - also known as Hygrometer
What is FUBAR?
F'd up beyond all repair - a Naval term.
construction: 2X6
With what sheathing/siding/insulation? Built when?

and in Ontario, Canada

Where in Ontario?

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 09:06:48 -0500, "boubou"
wrote:

even 30 % ??
wrote in message
om...
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:51:51 -0500, "boubou"
wrote:

nope, mirror doesn't fog up. Not too much humidity in the house, then
what?
Seems like the answer lies in the glass behing too cold....some other
windows have better insulant between the two panes of glass.

Argon helps- a LITTLE bit - but thermopane basically is thermopane.
Non-conductive spacer bars help with "edge freezing", but if you are
getting wet window panes and ice, your humidity - WHATEVER it is, is
TOO HIGH.

If at 30% you are getting condensation with thermopane windows, first
thing I would do is check your RH meter.

If it is correct, your windows may, indeed, be FUBAR.

Exactly what kind of windows, in what type of home construction, and
where??????

window getting wet from inside
 

Being that Toronto is just about right in the east/west
middle of Ontario I think you could decipher that one
quite easily.

Would a BASICA programme listing help?

LOL

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:47:54 -0500, "boubou"

wrote:

south eastern ontario
As in east of Toronto, or West of Toronto?

window getting wet from inside
 

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:03:46 -0500, " Solar Flare"
wrote:

Being that Toronto is just about right in the east/west
middle of Ontario I think you could decipher that one
quite easily.

Would a BASICA programme listing help?

LOL

wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:47:54 -0500, "boubou"

wrote:

south eastern ontario
As in east of Toronto, or West of Toronto?

Lots of people devide southern Ontario East West at somewhere between
Woodstock and Kitchener. Others make the devide at Milton.

I consider Kitchener to be Mid-Western Ontario, and from London to
Windsor South Western. Where Eastern (particularly South Eastern)
starts is kinda open to interpretation..

Anyway, if he's out along the St Laurence - between say Ajax and
Kingston, right about now, with a reasonably insulated 2X6
construction (almost by default less than 30 year old) home his
interior RH WILL be over 30% unless he's got his windows open and the
furnace running a lot.Likely over 40.

window getting wet from inside
 

Maybe. I have my humidifier started up and set at 35%
but it can't keep up in the cold weather ans eventually
sinks down to about 25% at the end of the winter.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:03:46 -0500, " Solar Flare"
wrote:

Being that Toronto is just about right in the
east/west
middle of Ontario I think you could decipher that
one
quite easily.

Would a BASICA programme listing help?

LOL

wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:47:54 -0500, "boubou"

wrote:

south eastern ontario
As in east of Toronto, or West of Toronto?

Lots of people devide southern Ontario East West at
somewhere between
Woodstock and Kitchener. Others make the devide at
Milton.

I consider Kitchener to be Mid-Western Ontario, and
from London to
Windsor South Western. Where Eastern (particularly
South Eastern)
starts is kinda open to interpretation..

Anyway, if he's out along the St Laurence - between
say Ajax and
Kingston, right about now, with a reasonably
insulated 2X6
construction (almost by default less than 30 year
old) home his
interior RH WILL be over 30% unless he's got his
windows open and the
furnace running a lot.Likely over 40.

window getting wet from inside
 

eastern ontario as in Kingston.

" Solar Flare" wrote in message
...
Maybe. I have my humidifier started up and set at 35%
but it can't keep up in the cold weather ans eventually
sinks down to about 25% at the end of the winter.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:03:46 -0500, " Solar Flare"
wrote:

Being that Toronto is just about right in the
east/west
middle of Ontario I think you could decipher that
one
quite easily.

Would a BASICA programme listing help?

LOL

wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:47:54 -0500, "boubou"

wrote:

south eastern ontario
As in east of Toronto, or West of Toronto?

Lots of people devide southern Ontario East West at
somewhere between
Woodstock and Kitchener. Others make the devide at
Milton.

I consider Kitchener to be Mid-Western Ontario, and
from London to
Windsor South Western. Where Eastern (particularly
South Eastern)
starts is kinda open to interpretation..

Anyway, if he's out along the St Laurence - between
say Ajax and
Kingston, right about now, with a reasonably
insulated 2X6
construction (almost by default less than 30 year
old) home his
interior RH WILL be over 30% unless he's got his
windows open and the
furnace running a lot.Likely over 40.

window getting wet from inside
 

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:28:06 -0500, "boubou"
wrote:

eastern ontario as in Kingston.

" Solar Flare" wrote in message
...
Maybe. I have my humidifier started up and set at 35%
but it can't keep up in the cold weather ans eventually
sinks down to about 25% at the end of the winter.
I have not had the humidifier running in my house in Waterloo for over
6 years. Have not even got one installed since replacing the furnace 3
years ago. House is standard 2X4 constructed, brick veneer bottom,
aluminum top 2 story built in the late seventies. Current interior RH
is 39-40%. On the coldest, nastiest days my front bay window and
kitchen window (still original aluminum frame dual unit - not
thermopane) occaisionally get a bit damp. Otherwize, my Rehau profile
vinyl framed thermopane side slider windows have never had a problem.

window getting wet from inside
 

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 19:11:37 -0500, "boubou"
wrote:

yea, but if indoor humidity is not the problem then, would it be the
installation of the windows? double pane getting condensation AND ice build
up when really cold
"daestrom" wrote in message
.. .

" Solar Flare" wrote in message
...
and mold... and sinus infections...and...


High humidity *could* be the OP's problem and that would lead to some
other issues.

But high humidity alone would *not* lead to *FROST* on the inside of the
window as the OP has. That can only happen if the inside surface of the
window/frame is really cold (32F). With a really cold frame, even 30% RH
inside will condense/frost on the window (dew point for 70F and 30RH is
about 37F).

Adding storm windows will help to reduce heat loss and stop the inside
frame/glass from getting so cold.

daestrom


No. Installation problems would cause cold air leaks AROUND the
windows, between the window and the wall, and would drastically lower
RH in the house due to infiltration of cold dry air.

window getting wet from inside
 

window getting wet from inside
 

How many kids and how often do you eat inhouse?

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:28:06 -0500, "boubou"

wrote:

eastern ontario as in Kingston.

" Solar Flare" wrote in
message
...
Maybe. I have my humidifier started up and set at
35%
but it can't keep up in the cold weather ans
eventually
sinks down to about 25% at the end of the winter.
I have not had the humidifier running in my house in
Waterloo for over
6 years. Have not even got one installed since
replacing the furnace 3
years ago. House is standard 2X4 constructed, brick
veneer bottom,
aluminum top 2 story built in the late seventies.
Current interior RH
is 39-40%. On the coldest, nastiest days my front bay
window and
kitchen window (still original aluminum frame dual
unit - not
thermopane) occaisionally get a bit damp. Otherwize,
my Rehau profile
vinyl framed thermopane side slider windows have
never had a problem.

window getting wet from inside
 

On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 01:32:50 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 19:11:37 -0500, "boubou"
wrote:


yea, but if indoor humidity is not the problem then, would it be the
installation of the windows? double pane getting condensation AND ice build
up when really cold
"daestrom" wrote in message
.. .

" Solar Flare" wrote in message
...

and mold... and sinus infections...and...


High humidity *could* be the OP's problem and that would lead to some
other issues.

But high humidity alone would *not* lead to *FROST* on the inside of the
window as the OP has. That can only happen if the inside surface of the
window/frame is really cold (32F). With a really cold frame, even 30% RH
inside will condense/frost on the window (dew point for 70F and 30RH is
about 37F).

Adding storm windows will help to reduce heat loss and stop the inside
frame/glass from getting so cold.

daestrom



No. Installation problems would cause cold air leaks AROUND the
windows, between the window and the wall, and would drastically lower
RH in the house due to infiltration of cold dry air.


Huh? That makes no sense and isn't true based on
personal experience. A storm window even if it
fits over just the glass, will increase the
temperature of the inside glass. But, storm
window typically fits just inside the outside trim
or fit on top of the trim. Thus decreasing any
air infiltration between the window and the frame.
Storm windows can easily reduce temperature
fluctuations in a house, especially those with
metal framed windows.


I was not talking about storm windows. The OP had asked if the
(improper) installation of the windows could cause the problem. My
reply was ONLY to that question. Look at the number of before the
messages. My reply, with was to the part with

window getting wet from inside
 

More bottom posting confusion.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 01:32:50 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 19:11:37 -0500, "boubou"

wrote:


yea, but if indoor humidity is not the problem
then, would it be the
installation of the windows? double pane getting
condensation AND ice build
up when really cold
"daestrom"
wrote in message
.. .

" Solar Flare" wrote in
message
...

and mold... and sinus infections...and...


High humidity *could* be the OP's problem and
that would lead to some
other issues.

But high humidity alone would *not* lead to
*FROST* on the inside of the
window as the OP has. That can only happen if
the inside surface of the
window/frame is really cold (32F). With a
really cold frame, even 30% RH
inside will condense/frost on the window (dew
point for 70F and 30RH is
about 37F).

Adding storm windows will help to reduce heat
loss and stop the inside
frame/glass from getting so cold.

daestrom



No. Installation problems would cause cold air
leaks AROUND the
windows, between the window and the wall, and
would drastically lower
RH in the house due to infiltration of cold dry
air.


Huh? That makes no sense and isn't true based on
personal experience. A storm window even if it
fits over just the glass, will increase the
temperature of the inside glass. But, storm
window typically fits just inside the outside trim
or fit on top of the trim. Thus decreasing any
air infiltration between the window and the frame.
Storm windows can easily reduce temperature
fluctuations in a house, especially those with
metal framed windows.


I was not talking about storm windows. The OP had
asked if the
(improper) installation of the windows could cause
the problem. My
reply was ONLY to that question. Look at the number
of before the
messages. My reply, with was to the part with

window getting wet from inside
 

window getting wet from inside
 

Some additional remarks to the topic:

1st the condensating at the windows proves too high air humidity which
condensates at colder parts.

2nd to stop condensating by new airtight windows will cause
condensation at the next cooler parts - the interior sites of the
exterior walls. And then mold will follow. So it would be quite good
to have a forced condensation only at the panes.

3rd rip out the upper rubbers of your windows. The little more fresh
air you will get in maybe is enough to reduce the air humidity
without causing structural damage and mold attack.

4th to insulate the exterior walls by usual thermal lightweight
insulation (fiberglass, polyfoam etc.) will not hinder condensation
there and can not help against energy losses in spite of the
industrial point of view.

We have tested this out by experiment ('Lichtenfelser Experiment',
well known in Germany) and practical comparing of appartment houses
with and without additional thermalinsulation. Reason: Thermal
insulation can not stop IR radiation which causes about 99% of warmth
transport. Look to the figure, it shows the temperature at the
opposite of materials after 10 min IR radiation with a redlight bulb.
Materials from above: fiberglass, styrofoam, foamglass, wood fiber
board, solid brick stone, gypsum card board, solid pinewood:

http://www.konrad-fischer-info.de/Test2.gif

Here you can see no effects of additional thermal insulation of
25-appartments-house 6 (blue line) in 1988 to the heating costs - 1
Million Marks has been spent for nothing!

[img:358ddfe6f7]http://www.konrad-fischer-info.de/7tolbri.gif[/img:358ddfe6f7]

The link gives some info to get rid with too much moisture in the
house:

Mold attack - A
Guide

Good luck!

Konrad

window getting wet from inside
 

Surprised? But true.

Konrad

window getting wet from inside
 

KonradFischer wrote:
Some additional remarks to the topic:

1st the condensating at the windows proves too high air humidity which
condensates at colder parts.

Define too high air humidity (how can it be humidity without air? :-)


2nd to stop condensating by new airtight windows will cause
condensation at the next cooler parts - the interior sites of the
exterior walls.

That would only occur if there was no vapor barrier. That's why vapor
barriers are there.

And then mold will follow. So it would be quite good
to have a forced condensation only at the panes.

An interesting dehumidifier. Would it not only cause mold there????


3rd rip out the upper rubbers of your windows. The little more fresh
air you will get in maybe is enough to reduce the air humidity
without causing structural damage and mold attack.

And you did some measurements on this??


4th to insulate the exterior walls by usual thermal lightweight
insulation (fiberglass, polyfoam etc.) will not hinder condensation
there and can not help against energy losses in spite of the
industrial point of view.

Of course it will not stop condensation, that's why we use a vapor
barrier.


We have tested this out by experiment ('Lichtenfelser Experiment',
well known in Germany) and practical comparing of appartment houses
with and without additional thermalinsulation. Reason: Thermal
insulation can not stop IR radiation which causes about 99% of warmth
transport.

That seems to conflict with my physics classes, of course maybe IR has
changed in the last 35 years.

Look to the figure, it shows the temperature at the
opposite of materials after 10 min IR radiation with a redlight bulb.
Materials from above: fiberglass, styrofoam, foamglass, wood fiber
board, solid brick stone, gypsum card board, solid pinewood:

http://www.konrad-fischer-info.de/Test2.gif

Here you can see no effects of additional thermal insulation of
25-appartments-house 6 (blue line) in 1988 to the heating costs - 1
Million Marks has been spent for nothing!

[img:358ddfe6f7]http://www.konrad-fischer-info.de/7tolbri.gif[/img:358ddfe6f7]

The link gives some info to get rid with too much moisture in the
house:

Mold attack - A
Guide

Good luck!

Konrad

I am not sure where you are coming from, but it seems your theories, if
I understand them, are not exactly main stream and seem to conflict with
most available information on the subject, as well as my personal
observations .

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

window getting wet from inside
 

1st Define too high air humidity (how can it be humidity without
air? :-)

2nd That would only occur if there was no vapor barrier. That's why
vapor
barriers are there.

3rd An interesting dehumidifier. Would it not only cause mold
there????

4th And you did some measurements on this??

5th Of course it will not stop condensation, that's why we use a
vapor
barrier.

6th That seems to conflict with my physics classes, of course maybe
IR has changed in the last 35 years.

7th I am not sure where you are coming from, but it seems your
theories, if I understand them, are not exactly main stream and seem
to conflict with most available information on the subject, as well
as my personal
observations .

--
Joseph Meehan


Thank you Joseph for your sceptic, humorous and open minded point of
view, which I lika a lot. I'll try to answer, please forgive me my
poor english, I am not a native speaker and from Germany:

1st Too high humidity is shown by condensate - if its condensates, its
too high (for the room and construction behaviour, for the inhabitants
security against mold attack) - if not, it may be ok. I will give no
rates/numbers/ranges, because condensate is the important thing. And
in the material pores humidity can condensate 65% RH because of
hydrogen bonds between pore surface and humidity.

2nd Also the vapor barrier is colder than the room air. So it must
condensate inside the barrier if RH is high enough - and in rooms
with airtight windows, certainly this case occurs often enough.

In addition the barriers can not work for long time in lightweight
constructions. Thus constructions move around whole the year, what
damages the fixing/bonding of the barrier and the barrier by itself
is ageing and will be not the same after some time. You know the
cracks in synthetic materials by ageing - this happens in every
barrier material I know.

I saw such cases often, as I am architect for old buildings since over
20 years, planned the restoration in over 400 projects and have
consulting practise all over Germany.

3rd Maybe. But normal people will dry the condensate daily, and clever
people will have better airing and heating to get rid with condensate
by most simple means. The advantage is that condensate at the single
pane is better than and will hinder riskful condensate in wall, floor
and ceiling. Thats it, isn't it?

4th I don't need measurements, I have experienced it in a lot of
consulted problems from my collegues and mine in Germany. Otherwise I
would not say any word about it, believe it or not.

5th see 2nd

6th Good joke ;-) But what have you learnt about IR radiation,
transmisson and conductivity? 'There are three ways of heat losses,
... etc.' I did learn the same. But what about the rates? Nothing.
And you? If you will know something more of my point of view about
this in the thread in popular writing, please post. I don't want to
give annoying huge posts.

7th Its not main stream, but its real live! My (and my scientific
friends) position is well known in Germany and discussed there since
20 years, also in the most important TV broadcasters. Search only my
first name in Google, you will find me on the first page, look
'Altbau' (Old building)- thats my page under the first 3 worldwide.

I would recommend a visit to the link before next round.

http://www.konrad-fischer-info.de/7SCHIM2.JPG
[img:757e427e90]http://www.konrad-fischer-info.de/7SCHI01.JPG[/img:757e427e90]
Condensate and mold in spite of vapor barrier

Thermal insulation
with no effects than mold attack?

Thanks and best wishes!

Konrad

window getting wet from inside
 

KonradFischer wrote:

... rip out the upper rubbers of your windows.

BAD idea.

Thermal insulation can not stop IR radiation...

Consider Kirchoff. It certainly can, unless it is transparent.

Nick

window getting wet from inside
 

Dear Nick,

thanks for your very critical post. I will add some remarks and as I
suppose that you have not read my upper post I will repeat some
things (sorry for the audience):

To rip out the rubbers is a very good idea and best practise here in
Germany. We have about 50% of all houses attacked by mold. Nearly All
of them have one detail common: airtight windows. A lot of old houses
had never mold, after changing the old windows against airtight ones,
mold attack follows. The ripped off rubber is THE Remedy. And costs
nothing, done by DIY.

I know the results of Gustav Robert Kirchhoff. You should discuss the
result of this experiment, if you will try to refute me in correct
way:

http://www.konrad-fischer-info.de/Test2.gif

It shows the temperature rising of several insulation boards and solid
materials, all 4 cm thick, after 10minutes infra-red radiation by a
redlight buld. Temperature is measured at the opposite of the boards.
From above: fibreglass, styrofoam, foamglass, solid brick, wood fibre
board, gypsum card board, solid pinewood.

Only the solid materials can really hinder IR radiation. The results
of the leightweighter are awful, don't you think so?

Further details he
Thermal insulation,
airtight windows, damp and mold attack

Best regards

Konrad