BACKGROUND:
1910 Queen-Ann Victorian in Oil City, PA
Currently has three 100A panels, one for each floor.
I will add one more meter for the basement where I will put an
apartment, but for the sake of this discussion it is not of primary
importance.

OBJECTIVE:
I want the FLEXIBILITY to switch from multi-family to single-family. I
have already devised plans for gas and water. Now I want to do the same
for electrical.

I have the permit(s). I can have the inspector onsite for $55. I
wanted to have a tentative plan in place first.

I called to upgrade my service from 100A to 200A for 1st floor. But
after calculating AMPS for the entire house I do not believe 200A is
enough.
The 1st floor/meter/load center is the one I would like to be able to
use as the source for the ENTIRE house if/when I don't have tenants on
2nd and 3rd floor. or if the new owner wants to make it SINGLE FAMILY.

Yesterday I did a complete breakdown of my amperage requirements based
on a formula in Taunton's Wiring a House.

Floor #1: 119A
-General lighting 1920 sq. ft x 3 = 5760
-Kitchen 3000
-Disposal 900
-Stove 8000
-Dishwasher 1500
-Washer 1500
-Dryer 5000
-Hot Water Heater 4500
Total 30160-10000

AMPS Required
10000 (1st 10,000)
8064 40% of remainder (20160 X 40%)
10500 (heating based on 42' of baseboard heaters 42'x250)
Grand Total: 28564/240V=119A

Floor #2: 93A
Floor #3: 92A
This is approximated.

It seems a little high because I am migrating AWAY from gas to electric
due to predicted/continual price of gas.

It seems to me I will be better upgrading my service (floor #1) to 300A
or 400A. This will allow some room to grow and why do it TWICE?

I currently have 3 meters with a single SE cable coming from the
transformer on the utility pole into a box that houses the 3 meters
with the individual SE cables for each of the 3 100A service panels.

Should I upgrade my service to 400A for first floor to cover all
current/future needs?

How do I interconnect them? I think I need switches inbetween the
meter and service panels but cannot find out how to set this up.

Thanks,
Frank

There are different grounding requirements for a main panel -vs- a subpanel.
So I don't know how you would get around that issue without a permanent
re-wiring job.

Also there is a safety issue. Someone might think power was off to one of
the panels when in fact it could be energized. Back-up generators have a
similar problem, and panels are made for that specific use. Might want to
look at some of those.

Check with your electric company about their being able to provide a 400 amp
service.

I would ask your local inspector what you can and can't do. In my area, I
can go in and ask the inspector questions before I do any work.


"MASTERCHIEF" wrote in message
BACKGROUND:
1910 Queen-Ann Victorian in Oil City, PA
Currently has three 100A panels, one for each floor.
I will add one more meter for the basement where I will put an
apartment, but for the sake of this discussion it is not of primary
importance.

OBJECTIVE:
I want the FLEXIBILITY to switch from multi-family to single-family. I
have already devised plans for gas and water. Now I want to do the same
for electrical.

I have the permit(s). I can have the inspector onsite for $55. I
wanted to have a tentative plan in place first.

I called to upgrade my service from 100A to 200A for 1st floor. But
after calculating AMPS for the entire house I do not believe 200A is
enough.
The 1st floor/meter/load center is the one I would like to be able to
use as the source for the ENTIRE house if/when I don't have tenants on
2nd and 3rd floor. or if the new owner wants to make it SINGLE FAMILY.

Yesterday I did a complete breakdown of my amperage requirements based
on a formula in Taunton's Wiring a House.

Floor #1: 119A
-General lighting 1920 sq. ft x 3 = 5760
-Kitchen 3000
-Disposal 900
-Stove 8000
-Dishwasher 1500
-Washer 1500
-Dryer 5000
-Hot Water Heater 4500
Total 30160-10000

AMPS Required
10000 (1st 10,000)
8064 40% of remainder (20160 X 40%)
10500 (heating based on 42' of baseboard heaters 42'x250)
Grand Total: 28564/240V=119A

Floor #2: 93A
Floor #3: 92A
This is approximated.

It seems a little high because I am migrating AWAY from gas to electric
due to predicted/continual price of gas.

It seems to me I will be better upgrading my service (floor #1) to 300A
or 400A. This will allow some room to grow and why do it TWICE?

I currently have 3 meters with a single SE cable coming from the
transformer on the utility pole into a box that houses the 3 meters
with the individual SE cables for each of the 3 100A service panels.

Should I upgrade my service to 400A for first floor to cover all
current/future needs?

How do I interconnect them? I think I need switches inbetween the
meter and service panels but cannot find out how to set this up.

Thanks,
Frank

I may be wrong but I do not think any electrical codes permit switching of
any kind in metering boxes, nor to I think your local utility would permit
it. It is also unnecessary. To switch from three meters to one or one meter
to three, it is just necessary to add/remove the meters and rewire the
service entrance system accordingly. You will need the conduits and
conductors to feed the 2nd and 3rd floor panels from either the meter box or
the 1st floor panel. You can not feed out of the 1st floor panel back into
the meter box to feed the other floors. Any competent electrician can
arrange a system that will do what you propose and be approved by your
utility but it will not be as simple to change back and forth as just
throwing switches. Your utility has to be involved in switching from one
meter to three meters or the reverse.

I cannot judge your load calculations but a 300 or 400 ampere service with
the necessary facilities to do what you are asking is going to be expensive
enough to consider just leaving the three meters as is.
Don Young
"MASTERCHIEF" wrote in message
ups.com...
BACKGROUND:
1910 Queen-Ann Victorian in Oil City, PA
Currently has three 100A panels, one for each floor.
I will add one more meter for the basement where I will put an
apartment, but for the sake of this discussion it is not of primary
importance.

OBJECTIVE:
I want the FLEXIBILITY to switch from multi-family to single-family. I
have already devised plans for gas and water. Now I want to do the same
for electrical.

I have the permit(s). I can have the inspector onsite for $55. I
wanted to have a tentative plan in place first.

I called to upgrade my service from 100A to 200A for 1st floor. But
after calculating AMPS for the entire house I do not believe 200A is
enough.
The 1st floor/meter/load center is the one I would like to be able to
use as the source for the ENTIRE house if/when I don't have tenants on
2nd and 3rd floor. or if the new owner wants to make it SINGLE FAMILY.

Yesterday I did a complete breakdown of my amperage requirements based
on a formula in Taunton's Wiring a House.

Floor #1: 119A
-General lighting 1920 sq. ft x 3 = 5760
-Kitchen 3000
-Disposal 900
-Stove 8000
-Dishwasher 1500
-Washer 1500
-Dryer 5000
-Hot Water Heater 4500
Total 30160-10000

AMPS Required
10000 (1st 10,000)
8064 40% of remainder (20160 X 40%)
10500 (heating based on 42' of baseboard heaters 42'x250)
Grand Total: 28564/240V=119A

Floor #2: 93A
Floor #3: 92A
This is approximated.

It seems a little high because I am migrating AWAY from gas to electric
due to predicted/continual price of gas.

It seems to me I will be better upgrading my service (floor #1) to 300A
or 400A. This will allow some room to grow and why do it TWICE?

I currently have 3 meters with a single SE cable coming from the
transformer on the utility pole into a box that houses the 3 meters
with the individual SE cables for each of the 3 100A service panels.

Should I upgrade my service to 400A for first floor to cover all
current/future needs?

How do I interconnect them? I think I need switches inbetween the
meter and service panels but cannot find out how to set this up.

Thanks,
Frank

"Don Young" wrote in message
...
I may be wrong but I do not think any electrical codes permit switching of
any kind in metering boxes, nor to I think your local utility would permit
it. It is also unnecessary. To switch from three meters to one or one
meter
to three, it is just necessary to add/remove the meters and rewire the
service entrance system accordingly.

He might be able to do something like put in transfer switches between the
meter and the service panel. But BIG transfer switches aren't exactly
cheap.

It might be cheaper just to arrange the meters and the wiring to the panels
in such a way that he can easily switch which meter the power goes to.
(This, of course, would require temporarily removing the meters but in many
places the electrician can "pull" the meter without much in the way of bad
consequences and then you pay the power company to put it back and seal it.)
Basically, he needs a wiring box before the meters and another after.

Each time he changes his mind about how to service the units, he will need
to call the electrician and the power company.

As I understand things, one can have up to SIX (6) panels for a "regular"
dwelling. For the price of some transfer swtiches he could have the
electrician change the wiring about several times.

With reasonable "diversity" I don't see why a 200 amp drop would not do the
job. He can "mix and match" how many meter boxes are connected on the
load side. I suspect the power company is used to such arrangements:
businesses in "strip malls" often take over or give up adjacent space.

You will need the conduits and
conductors to feed the 2nd and 3rd floor panels from either the meter box
or
the 1st floor panel. You can not feed out of the 1st floor panel back into
the meter box to feed the other floors. Any competent electrician can
arrange a system that will do what you propose and be approved by your
utility but it will not be as simple to change back and forth as just
throwing switches. Your utility has to be involved in switching from one
meter to three meters or the reverse.

I cannot judge your load calculations but a 300 or 400 ampere service with
the necessary facilities to do what you are asking is going to be
expensive
enough to consider just leaving the three meters as is.
Don Young
"MASTERCHIEF" wrote in message
ups.com...
BACKGROUND:
1910 Queen-Ann Victorian in Oil City, PA
Currently has three 100A panels, one for each floor.
I will add one more meter for the basement where I will put an
apartment, but for the sake of this discussion it is not of primary
importance.

OBJECTIVE:
I want the FLEXIBILITY to switch from multi-family to single-family. I
have already devised plans for gas and water. Now I want to do the same
for electrical.

I have the permit(s). I can have the inspector onsite for $55. I
wanted to have a tentative plan in place first.

I called to upgrade my service from 100A to 200A for 1st floor. But
after calculating AMPS for the entire house I do not believe 200A is
enough.
The 1st floor/meter/load center is the one I would like to be able to
use as the source for the ENTIRE house if/when I don't have tenants on
2nd and 3rd floor. or if the new owner wants to make it SINGLE FAMILY.

Yesterday I did a complete breakdown of my amperage requirements based
on a formula in Taunton's Wiring a House.

Floor #1: 119A
-General lighting 1920 sq. ft x 3 = 5760
-Kitchen 3000
-Disposal 900
-Stove 8000
-Dishwasher 1500
-Washer 1500
-Dryer 5000
-Hot Water Heater 4500
Total 30160-10000

AMPS Required
10000 (1st 10,000)
8064 40% of remainder (20160 X 40%)
10500 (heating based on 42' of baseboard heaters 42'x250)
Grand Total: 28564/240V=119A

Floor #2: 93A
Floor #3: 92A
This is approximated.

It seems a little high because I am migrating AWAY from gas to electric
due to predicted/continual price of gas.

It seems to me I will be better upgrading my service (floor #1) to 300A
or 400A. This will allow some room to grow and why do it TWICE?

I currently have 3 meters with a single SE cable coming from the
transformer on the utility pole into a box that houses the 3 meters
with the individual SE cables for each of the 3 100A service panels.

Should I upgrade my service to 400A for first floor to cover all
current/future needs?

How do I interconnect them? I think I need switches inbetween the
meter and service panels but cannot find out how to set this up.

Thanks,
Frank

There are different grounding requirements for a main panel -vs- a
subpanel. So I don't know how you would get around that issue without a
permanent re-wiring job.

Panel require grounds and subpanels require a ground wire back to the panel.
No big deal to disconnect the ground when changing them to subpanels.

Beyond that, the project is way over my head. Seems silly to approach it
without bringing in an electrician who knows what he is doing.

yes, get the biggest service size you can afford.
you know you'll be sorry if you don't supersize it. whether it's the
size of a water main i need for plumbing [my house has a new 1" line
not the 3/4" one every plumber wanted to put in] or the service panel
circuit breaker count [i love spare slots for the future] or the
between-room wall insulation we install that isn't in the building
code.
see also
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/afci.html
regarding arc fault breakers for that older home.
also check requirements for a house meter for the landlord to provide
common area lighting in a multiple dwelling. you may be looking at a
four meter setup in that case.
don't forget the monthly charge for each of these meters.
don't forget wind, solar, and geo-thermal as you dream of connecting
into the grid and the earth for future power changes.

Frank wrote:

It seems to me I will be better upgrading my service (floor #1) to 300A
or 400A. This will allow some room to grow and why do it TWICE?


I currently have 3 meters with a single SE cable coming from the
transformer on the utility pole into a box that houses the 3 meters
with the individual SE cables for each of the 3 100A service panels.


Should I upgrade my service to 400A for first floor to cover all
current/future needs?


How do I interconnect them? I think I need switches inbetween the
meter and service panels but cannot find out how to set this up.

What you propose can be done but can get expensive. IMO, it's not a DIY
project either. One approach would be to build a 300 or 400 amp
service with two 200 amp main panels that would be supplied through one
meter from the power company. The individual feeders to each floor
could then be brought off the main service panels through circuit
breakers and sub-metered with meters purchased by you. I strongly
recommended that you involve your Power Co. Engineering Dept. and local
electrical inspector before doing any work, since they may want it
built their way, especially the grounding.

Most of these suggestions don't sound even remotely legal, in my novice
opinion. In a multi (three) family dwelling, the different families
require separate meters, and those can't just be your jury rigged
meter, they must be real utility company meters connected to the mains,
I think. That rules out any sort of transfer switch at your disposal.
Just imagine trying to sort out a mess when one tennant rearranges
things so that their power is metered by the family downstairs, then no
one can tell who used what. Mutli-family metering is covered pretty
explicitly by code, IIRC.
And no power company would let you put any kind of box or switch
_before_ your meter, else you could easily steal electricity (duh!).

The only sensible suggestion here was to just place your three main
panels and three meters in such a way as to make for easier physical
access later to rewire them to have all three panels feed from a single
meter. Maybe even put conduits and/or wiring between the two extra
panels and the third meter (but don't actually connect any wires in
such a manner), and maybe even install the necessary ground wires for
the alternative setup (but don't connect them either). An electrician
could rewire this in a few minutes for cheap, just disconnecting the
extra meters and grounds.

Besides, are you willing to spend upwards of a few thousand dollars so
that maybe one day you can avoid a few hundred dollars in electrician
costs.

And lastly, 400A is downright obscene for a single family dwelling. Not
just excessive, but obscene.

If 400A is what you need to operate a multi-family it is reasonable.
Most all new homes take a 200A for SINGLE family. Mine is
THREE/MULTI-FAMILY.

I think this will be the easiest way to accomplish my goal:

1. Upgrade #1 to 400A
2. When I want to run #2 and / or #3 off the 400A panel I will shut off
the utility (won't be on anyway if there is no tenant) and remove the
SE cable from the panel.
3. I should then be able to wire it in such a manner to make it a
subpanel of #1. I know code does not require a main breaker, but I
could leave it in there I do believe. My feeder cable will come from
the 400A panel and be wired to a 100A breaker.

This will require some work since I cannot leave an unused wire in
place when I am not using it.
The only big question. When I rewire floors #2 and #3 I will be
running ONE CABLE from the basement to subpanels on the 2nd and 3rd
floors. When I go to single-family it will mean my two main panels (#2
and #3) become subpanels of #1. This means I will have TWO SUBPANELS
in that configuration and I do not know if that will meet code.

Frank

"MASTERCHIEF" wrote in message
ups.com...
BACKGROUND:
1910 Queen-Ann Victorian in Oil City, PA
Currently has three 100A panels, one for each floor.
I will add one more meter for the basement where I will put an
apartment, but for the sake of this discussion it is not of primary
importance.

OBJECTIVE:
I want the FLEXIBILITY to switch from multi-family to single-family. I
have already devised plans for gas and water. Now I want to do the same
for electrical.

I have the permit(s). I can have the inspector onsite for $55. I
wanted to have a tentative plan in place first.

I called to upgrade my service from 100A to 200A for 1st floor. But
after calculating AMPS for the entire house I do not believe 200A is
enough.
The 1st floor/meter/load center is the one I would like to be able to
use as the source for the ENTIRE house if/when I don't have tenants on
2nd and 3rd floor. or if the new owner wants to make it SINGLE FAMILY.

Yesterday I did a complete breakdown of my amperage requirements based
on a formula in Taunton's Wiring a House.

Floor #1: 119A
-General lighting 1920 sq. ft x 3 = 5760
-Kitchen 3000
-Disposal 900
-Stove 8000
-Dishwasher 1500
-Washer 1500
-Dryer 5000
-Hot Water Heater 4500
Total 30160-10000

AMPS Required
10000 (1st 10,000)
8064 40% of remainder (20160 X 40%)
10500 (heating based on 42' of baseboard heaters 42'x250)
Grand Total: 28564/240V=119A

Floor #2: 93A
Floor #3: 92A
This is approximated.

It seems a little high because I am migrating AWAY from gas to electric
due to predicted/continual price of gas.

It seems to me I will be better upgrading my service (floor #1) to 300A
or 400A. This will allow some room to grow and why do it TWICE?

I currently have 3 meters with a single SE cable coming from the
transformer on the utility pole into a box that houses the 3 meters
with the individual SE cables for each of the 3 100A service panels.

Should I upgrade my service to 400A for first floor to cover all
current/future needs?

How do I interconnect them? I think I need switches inbetween the
meter and service panels but cannot find out how to set this up.

Thanks,
Frank


A 400 amp service for a house that is less than 2000 square feet sounds
excessive. Instead of trying to install switches to go back and forth I
suggest a submeter configuration. Install a new 200 amp service (Or 400 amp
if you prefer) with one meter from the power company. Split that up into 3
or 4 submeter feeds to power your subpanels. You would have to purchase the
submeters and bill your tenants for the power that they consumed each month.
You would only pay one bill to the power company and if you decided to make
the house one family again you would not have to make any changes to the
service. You can do the same thing for gas and water also. The downside is
that the submeters can be expensive to purchase. Call an electrical supply
house for a price quote.

I suggest that you consult with an electrical contractor about this. You
should also meet with a representative from the power company and tell him
or her what you are trying to accomplish. They may already have a solution.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv

Don Young wrote:
I may be wrong but I do not think any electrical codes permit switching of
any kind in metering boxes, nor to I think your local utility would permit
it. It is also unnecessary. To switch from three meters to one or one meter
I never planned any tinkering UPSTREAM of the meter, just DOWNSTEAM
which is more or less my domain as long as it is code.

to three, it is just necessary to add/remove the meters and rewire the
service entrance system accordingly. You will need the conduits and
I think I can do it WITHOUT removing meters, just removing the SE cable
which is in essense the same thing. Right?

conductors to feed the 2nd and 3rd floor panels from either the meter box or
the 1st floor panel. You can not feed out of the 1st floor panel back into
the meter box to feed the other floors. Any competent electrician can
No, but I want to use the new 400A (1st floor) service panel to feed
the 2nd and 3rd floor. Noted in this message thread.

arrange a system that will do what you propose and be approved by your
utility but it will not be as simple to change back and forth as just
throwing switches. Your utility has to be involved in switching from one
meter to three meters or the reverse.
Yes, the technology is there, but the bureauacracy supercedes my plans.

I cannot judge your load calculations but a 300 or 400 ampere service with
the necessary facilities to do what you are asking is going to be expensive
enough to consider just leaving the three meters as is.
Don Young
I might...but you don't know if you don't research. Thanks for your
ideas.
Frank

I never planned to do it all myself, but if I had a plan/diagram that
was approved by the elec inspector I would certainly try. I am here
for advice and brain-storming. Thanks for your input. Frank

According to John Grabowski :
A 400 amp service for a house that is less than 2000 square feet sounds
excessive. Instead of trying to install switches to go back and forth I
suggest a submeter configuration. Install a new 200 amp service (Or 400 amp
if you prefer) with one meter from the power company. Split that up into 3
or 4 submeter feeds to power your subpanels. You would have to purchase the
submeters and bill your tenants for the power that they consumed each month.
You would only pay one bill to the power company and if you decided to make
the house one family again you would not have to make any changes to the
service. You can do the same thing for gas and water also. The downside is
that the submeters can be expensive to purchase. Call an electrical supply
house for a price quote.

I suggest that you consult with an electrical contractor about this. You
should also meet with a representative from the power company and tell him
or her what you are trying to accomplish. They may already have a solution.

I suspect that if he calls the power company, he'll find out that if it
went single-family, they'd bill him in such a way that he'd pay the _same_
whether one meter or three.

In other words, "not changing anything" is also an option and may well have
the desired outcome.

Power companies must be used to this sort of things, especially those in
rural areas with large properties with outbuildings and separate meters.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

That sounds like a workable plan to me. That is installing the 400 amp panel
now, then later making the other panels subpanels.

Just be sure you have plenty of breaker slots in your 400 amp panel. I have
a 40 slot 200 amp panel for example.

So in the future, you could have the electric service disconnected and meter
removed from one of the other panels. Then wire that panel into the 400 amp
panel with an appropriate breaker.

Then on the subpanel, you would then need isolated grounds from the
neutrals. This would just be adding a separate grounding bar most likely,
ask the electrician about this. If the subpanel is an old congested panel,
you might need to get a new panel.

Otherwise sounds like a good plan to me.


"MASTERCHIEF" wrote in message

....I think this will be the easiest way to accomplish my goal:

1. Upgrade #1 to 400A
2. When I want to run #2 and / or #3 off the 400A panel I will shut off
the utility (won't be on anyway if there is no tenant) and remove the
SE cable from the panel.
3. I should then be able to wire it in such a manner to make it a
subpanel of #1. I know code does not require a main breaker, but I
could leave it in there I do believe. My feeder cable will come from
the 400A panel and be wired to a 100A breaker.

This will require some work since I cannot leave an unused wire in
place when I am not using it.
The only big question. When I rewire floors #2 and #3 I will be
running ONE CABLE from the basement to subpanels on the 2nd and 3rd
floors. When I go to single-family it will mean my two main panels (#2
and #3) become subpanels of #1. This means I will have TWO SUBPANELS
in that configuration and I do not know if that will meet code.

Frank

John Grabowski wrote:
A 400 amp service for a house that is less than 2000 square feet sounds
excessive. Instead of trying to install switches to go back and forth I
Floor #1 1920 sq. ft
Floor #2 1288 sq. ft
Floor #3 966 sq. ft
suggest a submeter configuration. Install a new 200 amp service (Or 400 amp
if you prefer) with one meter from the power company. Split that up into 3
or 4 submeter feeds to power your subpanels. You would have to purchase the
submeters and bill your tenants for the power that they consumed each month.
You would only pay one bill to the power company and if you decided to make
the house one family again you would not have to make any changes to the
service. You can do the same thing for gas and water also. The downside is
that the submeters can be expensive to purchase. Call an electrical supply
house for a price quote.
WOW! Great idea and most cases it would work, but I am not about to
put the entire house (electric) in my name. I want the tenants to be
responsible and I do not want to get stuck with their bills.
Collecting rent can be had enuf sometimes.

I LIKE THE IDEA THOUGH.

Frank

I suggest that you consult with an electrical contractor about this. You
should also meet with a representative from the power company and tell him
or her what you are trying to accomplish. They may already have a solution.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv

Let me try again on this point: 400A for a single family is excessive.
Very excessive. It is perfectly legal, and reasonable, to have (say) a
200A main panel, with a bunch of breakers feeding part of the house,
and also feeding two 100A subpanels, each also with breakers feeding
other parts of the house. Just because you are feeding two 100A
subpanels does NOT mean that you need to have a 400A main panel.

In multi-family dwelling mode, 200A panel, 100A panel, and 100A panel
on three separate meters should be fine. In single family mode, a 200A
panel on a meter should be plenty, and it can just feed the two 100A
subpanels. You would probably want to feed the 100A subpanels with a
wire and a breaker rated for at least 60A, or maybe even 80A (if you
are expecting some enormous power consumption on one particular floor).
Really, 60A is a hell of a lot of power for an upstairs in a house.
Even a big house.

So my point is: the 100A rating of the subpanel means _nothing_ when it
is being used as a subpanel. The upstream 60A breaker (say) in the main
panel will keep the subpanel from overloading, and it will effectively
turn into a 60A subpanel. And you can still put a zillion amps worth of
breakers in that 60A box if you like, just as you can feed a zillion
subpanels of whatever capacity you like from your single 200A main
panel. The numbers do not need to add up, and normally don't (I have a
100A service, and at least 150A worth of breakers in my main panel).

Of course, you have to make sure you can find a 200A panel with enough
slots, and that can take two 60A or greater breakers in addition to the
rest of the breakers in there.

-Kevin

Then you may be shocked to learn that a lot of the new McMansions
being built around her come with a 600A panel. Talk about excessive...
Personally, I think that 100A per floor is more than enough, even with
electrical baseboard heat.

"kevin" wrote in message
oups.com...
Let me try again on this point: 400A for a single family is excessive.
Very excessive. It is perfectly legal, and reasonable, to have (say) a
200A main panel, with a bunch of breakers feeding part of the house,
and also feeding two 100A subpanels, each also with breakers feeding
other parts of the house. Just because you are feeding two 100A
subpanels does NOT mean that you need to have a 400A main panel.

In multi-family dwelling mode, 200A panel, 100A panel, and 100A panel
on three separate meters should be fine. In single family mode, a 200A
panel on a meter should be plenty, and it can just feed the two 100A
subpanels. You would probably want to feed the 100A subpanels with a
wire and a breaker rated for at least 60A, or maybe even 80A (if you
are expecting some enormous power consumption on one particular floor).
Really, 60A is a hell of a lot of power for an upstairs in a house.
Even a big house.

So my point is: the 100A rating of the subpanel means _nothing_ when it
is being used as a subpanel. The upstream 60A breaker (say) in the main
panel will keep the subpanel from overloading, and it will effectively
turn into a 60A subpanel. And you can still put a zillion amps worth of
breakers in that 60A box if you like, just as you can feed a zillion
subpanels of whatever capacity you like from your single 200A main
panel. The numbers do not need to add up, and normally don't (I have a
100A service, and at least 150A worth of breakers in my main panel).

Of course, you have to make sure you can find a 200A panel with enough
slots, and that can take two 60A or greater breakers in addition to the
rest of the breakers in there.

-Kevin

Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.kevin wrote:
Let me try again on this point: 400A for a single family is excessive.
Very excessive. It is perfectly legal, and reasonable, to have (say) a
200A main panel, with a bunch of breakers feeding part of the house,
and also feeding two 100A subpanels, each also with breakers feeding
other parts of the house. Just because you are feeding two 100A
subpanels does NOT mean that you need to have a 400A main panel.

In multi-family dwelling mode, 200A panel, 100A panel, and 100A panel
on three separate meters should be fine. In single family mode, a 200A
panel on a meter should be plenty, and it can just feed the two 100A
subpanels. You would probably want to feed the 100A subpanels with a
wire and a breaker rated for at least 60A, or maybe even 80A (if you
are expecting some enormous power consumption on one particular floor).
Really, 60A is a hell of a lot of power for an upstairs in a house.
Even a big house.

So my point is: the 100A rating of the subpanel means _nothing_ when it
is being used as a subpanel. The upstream 60A breaker (say) in the main
panel will keep the subpanel from overloading, and it will effectively
turn into a 60A subpanel. And you can still put a zillion amps worth of
breakers in that 60A box if you like, just as you can feed a zillion
subpanels of whatever capacity you like from your single 200A main
panel. The numbers do not need to add up, and normally don't (I have a
100A service, and at least 150A worth of breakers in my main panel).

Of course, you have to make sure you can find a 200A panel with enough
slots, and that can take two 60A or greater breakers in addition to the
rest of the breakers in there.

-Kevin

Kevin
400 amps is only excessive if you don't need that much power. I have
done heavy ups to 400 amperes when the calculation of the present or
future loads warranted it. A blanket statement that 400 amps is
excessive for all single family homes does not withstand knowledgeable
scrutiny.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

"jstp" wrote in message

Then you may be shocked to learn that a lot of the new McMansions
being built around her come with a 600A panel...


Yes, there are some very large "single family homes". Some of these have
elevators. I know of one which has an elevator for cars (limos) in the
garage. Basically there is a large parking garage underground, yet above
ground, it looks like your "typical" 5 car garage.

One such "single family home" has a "staff" of 60 people working there!

And the big shots who own these places are never there. They will be at
their "summer home", or whatever...

Not shocked at all. But it is still obscene and excessive.

Of course, there _are_ situations when a house might reasonably need a
lot of power. Like if you ran a business out of your home (esp one that
required power-hungry machines). But then, I would't call that a home,
but more of a home/business. But if you are just running a huge shop
for fun, I'd say that is excessive too. Not that anyone does or should
care what I think...

-Kevin