Hi,

I don't know what to do first. I want to have a dishwasher.
The problem is when my house was built, I failed to tell the
builder to include a dishwasher space, where I can just install
my dishwasher. My house is now 2 years old and I can't run after
the builder now.

I think I have a rough-in for dishwasher pipe/ or something for
dishawasher to hook-up to. But I don't have an empty space where
I can put my dishwasher. I have to free up one of my kitchen cabinets
and make a hole on the rest of cabinets?

Who should I call about this? plumber? contractor?

"kelly" wrote in message
I think I have a rough-in for dishwasher pipe/ or something for
dishawasher to hook-up to. But I don't have an empty space where
I can put my dishwasher. I have to free up one of my kitchen cabinets
and make a hole on the rest of cabinets?

Who should I call about this? plumber? contractor?

You have to remove a 24" cabinet. Best location is right next to the sink.
A good home handyman can do this.

"kelly" wrote in message ...
Hi,

I don't know what to do first. I want to have a dishwasher.
The problem is when my house was built, I failed to tell the
builder to include a dishwasher space, where I can just install
my dishwasher. My house is now 2 years old and I can't run after
the builder now.

I think I have a rough-in for dishwasher pipe/ or something for
dishawasher to hook-up to. But I don't have an empty space where
I can put my dishwasher. I have to free up one of my kitchen cabinets
and make a hole on the rest of cabinets?

Who should I call about this? plumber? contractor?

I would go with a Contractor, Maybe a Cabinet shop. Get As close as
possible to the sink You can run your water and waste behind the cab.The
water and waste are easy Put a angle stop with outlets on the Hot water. The
waste goes to a air cap on the sink and then to the Disposal.

Two outlets on the hot side

"kelly" wrote in message ...
Hi,

I don't know what to do first. I want to have a dishwasher.
The problem is when my house was built, I failed to tell the
builder to include a dishwasher space, where I can just install
my dishwasher. My house is now 2 years old and I can't run after
the builder now.

I think I have a rough-in for dishwasher pipe/ or something for
dishawasher to hook-up to. But I don't have an empty space where
I can put my dishwasher. I have to free up one of my kitchen cabinets
and make a hole on the rest of cabinets?

Who should I call about this? plumber? contractor?


Wherever you purchase the dishwasher will likely have an installer that they
use.

Chances are very good that the cabinets already have been designed to permit
easy installation of the unit.

Peter H

On Thu 03 Nov 2005 05:46:37p, Sacramento Dave wrote in alt.home.repair:


"kelly" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I don't know what to do first. I want to have a dishwasher.
The problem is when my house was built, I failed to tell the
builder to include a dishwasher space, where I can just install
my dishwasher. My house is now 2 years old and I can't run after
the builder now.

I think I have a rough-in for dishwasher pipe/ or something for
dishawasher to hook-up to. But I don't have an empty space where
I can put my dishwasher. I have to free up one of my kitchen cabinets
and make a hole on the rest of cabinets?

Who should I call about this? plumber? contractor?

I would go with a Contractor, Maybe a Cabinet shop. Get As close as
possible to the sink You can run your water and waste behind the cab.The
water and waste are easy Put a angle stop with outlets on the Hot water.
The waste goes to a air cap on the sink and then to the Disposal.



Not all codes require an air gap at sinktop level.

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
_____________________________________________

A chicken in every pot is a *LOT* of chicken!

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 11:39:28 -0500, kelly wrote:

Hi,

I don't know what to do first. I want to have a dishwasher.
The problem is when my house was built, I failed to tell the
builder to include a dishwasher space, where I can just install
my dishwasher. My house is now 2 years old and I can't run after
the builder now.

Are you sure he didn't leave a space, just one filled with a cabinet?

What is the width of the cabinet next to your sink. It might be the
same as a dishwasher.

You might have to loosen the kitchen counter and lift it up to get the
cabinet out -- I guess you do, I've just never needed to get a cabinet
out. Then slide in the dishwasher and connect it to the water supply
and the drain (probably through the garbage disposal).

If the cabinet next to the sink is not the right width, maybe another
one is. Take that one out, then slide the other cabinets over to fill
up the space, and you'll have an empty space next to the sink.

I think I have a rough-in for dishwasher pipe/ or something for
dishawasher to hook-up to. But I don't have an empty space where
I can put my dishwasher. I have to free up one of my kitchen cabinets
and make a hole on the rest of cabinets?

I don't understand why you need to make a hole in other cabinets.

Who should I call about this? plumber? contractor?


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Sacramento Dave wrote:
"kelly" wrote in message ...

Hi,

I don't know what to do first. I want to have a dishwasher.
The problem is when my house was built, I failed to tell the
builder to include a dishwasher space, where I can just install
my dishwasher. My house is now 2 years old and I can't run after
the builder now.

I think I have a rough-in for dishwasher pipe/ or something for
dishawasher to hook-up to. But I don't have an empty space where
I can put my dishwasher. I have to free up one of my kitchen cabinets
and make a hole on the rest of cabinets?

Who should I call about this? plumber? contractor?


I would go with a Contractor, Maybe a Cabinet shop. Get As close as
possible to the sink You can run your water and waste behind the cab.The
water and waste are easy Put a angle stop with outlets on the Hot water. The
waste goes to a air cap on the sink and then to the Disposal.


I'm curious what is an air cap? My disposal hose
currently and on the previous disposal ran
directly to a fitting on the disposal. I just
finished fixing a sink for another person (leaks,
etc.) and the drain went directly to a fitting on
the sink drain pipe (just below the sinking basket
(not disposal).

Not all codes require an air gap at sinktop level.
Yes, but an air gap is good idea for 3 reasons:
1. It protects the dishwashers from sewage back-flow and contamination
in the drain line

2. It introduces air to the top most level in order to break the water
flow and to prevent siphoning in the drain line after the drain
period.

3. It gives the water somewhere to go if there is a blockage at the
disposer, which helps protect the dishwasher pump.

there are also 18" dishwashers [like DANBY], and portable dishwashers.

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 21:54:49 -0800, Abe wrote:

Not all codes require an air gap at sinktop level.
Yes, but an air gap is good idea for 3 reasons:
1. It protects the dishwashers from sewage back-flow and contamination
in the drain line

2. It introduces air to the top most level in order to break the water
flow and to prevent siphoning in the drain line after the drain
period.

3. It gives the water somewhere to go if there is a blockage at the
disposer, which helps protect the dishwasher pump.

Relevant story: For a while my Kenmore dishwasher wouldn't drain.

All the hoses seemed clear, and somehow I decided the pump was
working.

I was befuddled. I finally found a little chicken bone, the one
that's next to the chicken leg bone, in the air gap. Took it out and
the dishwasher worked fine. I have no idea why.

(This is not a reason not to have an airgap. Just a story about one.)

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 05:04:02 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:

I would go with a Contractor, Maybe a Cabinet shop. Get As close as
possible to the sink You can run your water and waste behind the cab.The
water and waste are easy Put a angle stop with outlets on the Hot water. The
waste goes to a air cap on the sink and then to the Disposal.


I'm curious what is an air cap? My disposal hose
currently and on the previous disposal ran
directly to a fitting on the disposal. I just
finished fixing a sink for another person (leaks,
etc.) and the drain went directly to a fitting on
the sink drain pipe (just below the sinking basket
(not disposal).

I probably made a mistake just now when I called it an airgap.

An air cap is visible at the top of the sink, to the right usually of
the faucet. It appears as a chromer cap and is mounted in the hole
that might otherwise have held the soap bottle or the vegetable
sprayer.

The drain water of the dishwasher goes up there, and then down to the
disposal. It's pumped up there, and uses gravity to get to the
disposal. Like a water fountain bubbler. Since it's not a closed
tube, it can't siphon. I forget what direction the siphoning would go
in, but it has something to do with germs.

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me know if you have posted also.

mm wrote:
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 05:04:02 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:

I would go with a Contractor, Maybe a Cabinet shop. Get As close as
possible to the sink You can run your water and waste behind the cab.The
water and waste are easy Put a angle stop with outlets on the Hot water. The
waste goes to a air cap on the sink and then to the Disposal.



I'm curious what is an air cap? My disposal hose
currently and on the previous disposal ran
directly to a fitting on the disposal. I just
finished fixing a sink for another person (leaks,
etc.) and the drain went directly to a fitting on
the sink drain pipe (just below the sinking basket
(not disposal).


I probably made a mistake just now when I called it an airgap.

An air cap is visible at the top of the sink, to the right usually of
the faucet. It appears as a chromer cap and is mounted in the hole
that might otherwise have held the soap bottle or the vegetable
sprayer.

You are WAY out of my league. I've never seen
such a thing. Heck I've never see a hole that
would hold a soap bottle. I've seen and have a
sprayer (doesn't have anything to do with
vegetables tho, suppose you could use if to spray
vegetable, but most use it to spray plates and
utensils.

The drain water of the dishwasher goes up there, and then down to the
disposal. It's pumped up there, and uses gravity to get to the
disposal. Like a water fountain bubbler. Since it's not a closed
tube, it can't siphon. I forget what direction the siphoning would go
in, but it has something to do with germs.

I can see how that would work, just never seen
one. Dish washers usually suggest that you route
the hose up as high as possible before attaching
to the drain or disposal. That essentially stops
siphoning. Course if you drain is plugged it
could siphon back to the washer if the water got
as high as the maximum height of the hose. But
then, you would have a lot more to worry about
than a few bacteria in your washer, which could
easily be killed by just running the washer anyway.

Ah me, what complicated things people think up.


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
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On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 05:03:50 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:

mm wrote:
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 05:04:02 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:

I would go with a Contractor, Maybe a Cabinet shop. Get As close as
possible to the sink You can run your water and waste behind the cab.The
water and waste are easy Put a angle stop with outlets on the Hot water. The
waste goes to a air cap on the sink and then to the Disposal.



I'm curious what is an air cap? My disposal hose
currently and on the previous disposal ran
directly to a fitting on the disposal. I just
finished fixing a sink for another person (leaks,
etc.) and the drain went directly to a fitting on
the sink drain pipe (just below the sinking basket
(not disposal).


I probably made a mistake just now when I called it an airgap.

An air cap is visible at the top of the sink, to the right usually of
the faucet. It appears as a chromer cap and is mounted in the hole
that might otherwise have held the soap bottle or the vegetable
sprayer.

You are WAY out of my league. I've never seen
such a thing. Heck I've never see a hole that
would hold a soap bottle. I've seen and have a

It's hard to believe I've surpassed someone by knowing about soap
bottles, but I'll settle for anything these days.

sprayer (doesn't have anything to do with
vegetables tho, suppose you could use if to spray
vegetable, but most use it to spray plates and
utensils.

I only use mine to fill things that won't fit under the faucet, but my
recollection is that when these first came out (in the 50's or 60's)
they were called vegetable sprayers. Referring to their use in
washing fresh vegetables.

The drain water of the dishwasher goes up there, and then down to the
disposal. It's pumped up there, and uses gravity to get to the
disposal. Like a water fountain bubbler. Since it's not a closed
tube, it can't siphon. I forget what direction the siphoning would go
in, but it has something to do with germs.

I can see how that would work, just never seen
one. Dish washers usually suggest that you route
the hose up as high as possible before attaching

I've only had two, one when I was 10 and the other when I was 36. I
probably read the owner's manual for the second one, but it's been 22
years. (still works fine and it's 26 years old. The only problem was
the chicken bone I mentioned above. I don't bother much cleaning the
dishes in advance. If they come out dirty, and once in a while they
do, I scrub them in the sink and wash them again.

to the drain or disposal. That essentially stops
siphoning. Course if you drain is plugged it
could siphon back to the washer if the water got
as high as the maximum height of the hose. But
then, you would have a lot more to worry about
than a few bacteria in your washer, which could
easily be killed by just running the washer anyway.

Ah me, what complicated things people think up.

I dont' remember why the anti-siphon is thought to be necessary, but
it was a good reason. Or was that the sprinkler system?

I guess it was that water in a clogged disposal or a clogged trap
would be siphoned back to the dishwasher.

You'e right it could be killed by running the washer, but as long as
the drain is clogged, you can't really do that. So not only would the
drain have a surface several inches below the sink that was
disgusting, but there wouldbe a bigger surface visible in the
dishwasher that was disgusting. Might smell bad after a day or two.

I myself have never had a clogged toilet or a clogged drain (except
for that chicken bone incident, which left nothing disgusting in the
dishwasher, just mildly dirty water) so, like you, it's hard for me
to worry about this.

Plus, I would have liked to have saved that hole for a soap dispenser
or a vegetable sprayer. but when I got the new faucet, the sprayer
mounted in the faucet escutcheon, sort of in place of a bolt. So I
didn't need the hole. (and if the dishwasher hadn't required a hole,
they probably would have bought a sink with no hole. Catch 22.)

And the soap dispenser turned out to be 40 dollars iirc, an exorbitant
price for something that might be hard to refill, when I can use a
plastic bottle on the counter for free.

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"mm" wrote in message

I dont' remember why the anti-siphon is thought to be necessary, but
it was a good reason. Or was that the sprinkler system?


Similar idea.

The DW is to prevent water from a clogged sink or disposal from backing up
into the DW.

Sprinkler systems require a backflow preventor that does a similar function
and prevents water coming back through, possibly bringing lawn chemicals,
getting intothe domestic water systems.

Households rarely have backflow preventors, but they are becoming more
commonplace. Industry has been using them for years where they connect from
city water to industrial use.

The big issue is getting a 24 inch wide, (normal cabinet space), where
you want the dishwasher to go, which usually is on either side of the
sink. You need to inspect what is already there. If it's an existing
cabinet that you can do without, then is can usually be easily removed.
If not, then I would try to identify who supplied/installed the
cabinets and get them to take a look and give you options. You could
also take some pics of what you have and go to the cabinet shop as a
first step.

Of course, a lot of this depends on your skill and how much you can do
yourself. The actual dishwasher install is pretty easy. But it can
get more complicated, and in your case the next challenge may be that
there is no electrical connection available.

mm wrote:
On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 05:03:50 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:

((snipped))

You are WAY out of my league. I've never seen
such a thing. Heck I've never see a hole that
would hold a soap bottle. I've seen and have a


It's hard to believe I've surpassed someone by knowing about soap
bottles, but I'll settle for anything these days.


sprayer (doesn't have anything to do with
vegetables tho, suppose you could use if to spray
vegetable, but most use it to spray plates and
utensils.


I only use mine to fill things that won't fit under the faucet, but my
recollection is that when these first came out (in the 50's or 60's)
they were called vegetable sprayers. Referring to their use in
washing fresh vegetables.


The drain water of the dishwasher goes up there, and then down to the
disposal. It's pumped up there, and uses gravity to get to the
disposal. Like a water fountain bubbler. Since it's not a closed
tube, it can't siphon. I forget what direction the siphoning would go
in, but it has something to do with germs.


I can see how that would work, just never seen
one. Dish washers usually suggest that you route
the hose up as high as possible before attaching


I've only had two, one when I was 10 and the other when I was 36. I
probably read the owner's manual for the second one, but it's been 22
years. (still works fine and it's 26 years old. The only problem was
the chicken bone I mentioned above. I don't bother much cleaning the
dishes in advance. If they come out dirty, and once in a while they
do, I scrub them in the sink and wash them again.


to the drain or disposal. That essentially stops
siphoning. Course if you drain is plugged it
could siphon back to the washer if the water got
as high as the maximum height of the hose. But
then, you would have a lot more to worry about
than a few bacteria in your washer, which could
easily be killed by just running the washer anyway.


Ah me, what complicated things people think up.


I dont' remember why the anti-siphon is thought to be necessary, but
it was a good reason. Or was that the sprinkler system?

((cut))
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Funny thing, today in the plumbing parts at Lowes,
I saw one of your air caps while looking for
another drain part. I'd rather call it an air gap
or a siphon breaker as more descriptive. Still,
most sinks just have holes for the faucets and a
sprayer and I don't see air caps installed in the
store displays.

Wouldn't filling a soap dispensers be a pita
compared to just using a counter bottle? Also,
does a drain that frequently receives dish washing
water clog? That stuff is so caustic that I
would think drains plugging would be very rare.

We've been in our house (new at purchase) 29 years
and we have never had a plugged drain. I can't
remember ever having a plugged drain in any of the
apartments we rented or in my parents houses. We
are probably more careful than many people tho as
we don't put golf balls down the sink or commode.
Heck we hardly ever used the grinder-upper
either since we composted most everything. And at
the slightest hint of slow draining I always do a
draino treatment, mostly in the bathroom sinks due
to hair accumulation.

I think the air cap is in the same league as the
phone company selling insurance for your telephone
wiring in your house. Heck, for $25 I can buy all
the tools and parts I need to replace all of the
wire and it wouldn't take more than an an hour and
a half. one-half hour would be unloading the
closet to get into the crawl space and 1/2 hour
would be for rounding up lights and tools, kicking
the cat out, yelling at the wife, etc. So that
would only leave 1/2 for crawling around the crawl
space. The insurance amount looks like a
pittance, but the likelihood of ever needing to
use it would mean at least a 30 year pay period.

Now the water company wants to insure your pipe
from the meter into the house. Say that gets you
people working on the problem right away, etc.,
etc. In my case it is only a 30 foot line buried
probably 3 feet deep. Base on their monthly cost,
if I paid for that insurance since I bought the
house, I would have paid more than $1500.

I could hire a couple of kids to dig it up for
$200, or maybe just rent a trencher to dig it and
let the kids clean up the trench and widen the
ends of the trench for $100 more. So say $300.
The insurance makes the air cap a piker. No
thanks to all three.

"mm" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 21:54:49 -0800, Abe wrote:

Not all codes require an air gap at sinktop level.
Yes, but an air gap is good idea for 3 reasons:
1. It protects the dishwashers from sewage back-flow and contamination
in the drain line

2. It introduces air to the top most level in order to break the water
flow and to prevent siphoning in the drain line after the drain
period.

3. It gives the water somewhere to go if there is a blockage at the
disposer, which helps protect the dishwasher pump.

Relevant story: For a while my Kenmore dishwasher wouldn't drain.

All the hoses seemed clear, and somehow I decided the pump was
working.

I was befuddled. I finally found a little chicken bone, the one
that's next to the chicken leg bone, in the air gap. Took it out and
the dishwasher worked fine. I have no idea why.

(This is not a reason not to have an airgap. Just a story about one.)

Well, an air gap is a potential source of blockages which will disable the
dishwasher. Instructions that came with our unit suggest that the airgap
device must be able to pass a 3/8 inch ball to MINIMIZE drain line
blockages.

I cleared a drain line blockage for my daughter-in-law by removing the cap
on her airgap unit and removing some fibrous food residue -- so it does
happen, though not very often.

A new dishwasher should provide adequate installation instructions covering
these details. Incidentally, to quote from mine --

"If an air gap is not code required, the drain hose must have a high drain
loop (18" min. above floor level) to prevent back-flow of water into the
dishwasher or water syphoning out during operation. CAUTION: An air gap
MUST BE USED if drain hose is connected to house plumbing lower than 18"
above floor level."

I provided the high loop on mine by hanging a part of the hose over a hook
high in the cabinet under the sink.

SJF

On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 11:28:09 -0800, "SJF" wrote:


I was befuddled. I finally found a little chicken bone, the one
that's next to the chicken leg bone, in the air gap. Took it out and
the dishwasher worked fine. I have no idea why.

(This is not a reason not to have an airgap. Just a story about one.)

Well, an air gap is a potential source of blockages which will disable the
dishwasher. Instructions that came with our unit suggest that the airgap
device must be able to pass a 3/8 inch ball to MINIMIZE drain line

I should have said that I only had the small end of that bone,
substantially less than 3/8th's. Of course maybe something else is
different bettween yours and mine, but it seemed small in comparison
to the whole hole.

blockages.

I cleared a drain line blockage for my daughter-in-law by removing the cap
on her airgap unit and removing some fibrous food residue -- so it does
happen, though not very often.

Yeah, that sounds like what happened to me. next time I'll check the
air gap early in the process.

A new dishwasher should provide adequate installation instructions covering
these details. Incidentally, to quote from mine --

"If an air gap is not code required, the drain hose must have a high drain

So it is called an air gap, not an air cap.

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