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  #1   Report Post  
dean
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

Like (for example):

When adding a single new circuit.
When installing a generator back-up switch.
Installing a chimney liner.

I mean, I'm all for code and everything, but it is a pain and it is
very slow, and requires a day off to wait for the inspector...

-Dean

  #2   Report Post  
Edwin Pawlowski
 
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Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

"dean" wrote in message
oups.com...
Like (for example):

When adding a single new circuit.
When installing a generator back-up switch.
Installing a chimney liner.

I mean, I'm all for code and everything, but it is a pain and it is
very slow, and requires a day off to wait for the inspector...


I am a strong believer in codes. As long as the work is done properly and
safely, it is my house and no reason to pay for a permit and inspection. It
is an income source for the town. If I was building a house or major
addition, I'd get the permit. My roofer got one when they did their work,
but did an inspector ever come around? No, they just took the money.


  #3   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

On 1 Nov 2005 22:31:32 -0800, "dean" wrote:

Like (for example):

When adding a single new circuit.
When installing a generator back-up switch.
Installing a chimney liner.

I mean, I'm all for code and everything, but it is a pain and it is
very slow, and requires a day off to wait for the inspector...

-Dean


Last place I lived required building permits
for damn near any home improvement.

There was NO inspector.

It was just a rip-off tax on folks
who tried to improve their homes.

rj
  #4   Report Post  
MasterBlaster
 
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Default Do you ever not bother with permits?


"dean" wrote

Like (for example):

When adding a single new circuit.
When installing a generator back-up switch.
Installing a chimney liner.

I mean, I'm all for code and everything, but it is a pain and it is
very slow, and requires a day off to wait for the inspector...


Hell, no. Screw the inspectors. They're just toady boys for the over-priced
contractors that think they know everything. Why, just last week I put in
a chimney liner all by myself, and I didn't need any damn inspector telling
me what's safe and what's not. In fact, I was... Uh, hold on a sec............
Sorry, I gotta go. My doctor just called, and an operating room just became
available at the hospital, so I can get started on my skin grafts now. Just think,
in only three years I'll have a recognizable face again. See ya!!

  #6   Report Post  
wayne
 
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Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

This web site has examples of silly code problems
http://www.sheridanhvac.com/codes.htm



dean wrote:

Like (for example):

When adding a single new circuit.
When installing a generator back-up switch.
Installing a chimney liner.

I mean, I'm all for code and everything, but it is a pain and it is
very slow, and requires a day off to wait for the inspector...

-Dean

  #7   Report Post  
Bill
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

If it is something minor (which would probably irritate the inspector to
come and look at with *me* doing the work), and something I know 100% that I
am doing to code and safely, then no.

But say I am just adding a new electrical switch... Well I used to be an
electrician, so I know what I'm doing and don't cut corners. I *don't* use
whatever wire happens to be in my shed. If I don't have the proper wire, I
go buy it. Same with electrical box, switch, grounding, and everything else
related to the work.

So if I am out of some wiring supplies, I will go spend $20 or $30 to get
the right stuff to add that one electrical switch. But then I'll probably
get a roll of wire and a box of wire nuts which I will use on other
projects.

And I usually ask for permits more than is necessary. I'll ask if I need a
permit for this or that, and sometimes they say that I don't need a permit.

And when I do get a permit for say electrical work, the inspector looks at
some of my work, but not everything. He sees that I am doing things to code
where he looks, and figures everything else is the same - which it is. And
these guys are busy, they don't have time to look at everything (unless they
can see that there are a lot of code violations), so it is really up to me
to be sure all my work is done to code and is safe.

At one time, the inspector lived across the street from me. I was doing some
work on my front porch and went to his office to ask if I needed a permit.
He said don't bother. But basically I had the benefit of having a permit,
because he drove by my house and saw what I was doing every day. So if I did
anything which was not up to code, he would have pointed it out to me with a
quickness. Actually when I was done, he came over and said nice job, and
that I went beyond what code required!

I just installed a woodstove, hearth, and chimney. I had *no* idea what I
was doing before starting this project. So you bet your bippy I got a
permit. But I also read all I could about it and went to ask the inspector
questions a few times before doing the work. So I now know 100% my work was
done properly and is safe. The inspector came out and inspected everything
and said nice job. (Double-checked my work.) And my insurance guy came out
and inspected my work as well. (Triple check!)

So I would say, if you're *not* 100% sure what you are doing is safe and up
to code, then get a permit - even if it is adding just one electrical
switch. And so what if the inspector asks you to re-do some work, well you
have learned something and will know your work is done safely. You will
sleep better at night.


  #8   Report Post  
Art
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

If you go to sell your home and you need a certificate of occupancy for a
finished basement or new room and don't have it, you can lose the deal.


"dean" wrote in message
oups.com...
Like (for example):

When adding a single new circuit.
When installing a generator back-up switch.
Installing a chimney liner.

I mean, I'm all for code and everything, but it is a pain and it is
very slow, and requires a day off to wait for the inspector...

-Dean



  #9   Report Post  
Beachcomber
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 14:59:36 GMT, "Art"
wrote:

If you go to sell your home and you need a certificate of occupancy for a
finished basement or new room and don't have it, you can lose the deal.


"dean" wrote in message
roups.com...
Like (for example):

When adding a single new circuit.
When installing a generator back-up switch.
Installing a chimney liner.

I mean, I'm all for code and everything, but it is a pain and it is
very slow, and requires a day off to wait for the inspector...

-Dean



Some towns near where I live (Gresham, Oregon) require a permit just
to change the porch light fixture. I think that is getting
ridiculous and potentially leads to petty situations where your nosy
neighbors might "turn you in" just for replacing the porch light.

Beachcomber



  #10   Report Post  
SteveB
 
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Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

Yesterday, I saw the new neighbor draining his hot water heater. He had
just bought the house. I went over and asked what was up. He said his hot
water heater went out. He has owned the house for only a month.

He got the house warranty. The installer said that it would cost him $45
service call, and that he needed to replace the supply lines, install
earthquake straps (we live in Las Vegas) and put a catch pan under the new
heater. He also said that it would require a permit, that he would get it,
and that would be $150. Total out of pocket expense not covered by the
warranty: $650. He told the man to get off his property.

He called the insurance agent who called the warranty company. They sent
another installer who did the job for $45 out of pocket expense.

You don't always need a permit. I have done major work on my properties. I
know people with experience who know codes. The work is always done to
code, and I'll be damned if I am going to go and pay to do work on my own
property. And then wait on inspectors.

And don't give me that crap about having to have permits to sell. The man
who sold the house across the street did a lot of the work himself without
permits, did horrible work, and still sold the house. In today's market,
the seller is in the driver's seat.

STeve





  #11   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 07:38:32 -0800, "SteveB"
wrote:

He got the house warranty. The installer said that it would cost him $45
service call, and that he needed to replace the supply lines, install
earthquake straps (we live in Las Vegas) and put a catch pan under the new
heater. He also said that it would require a permit, that he would get it,
and that would be $150. Total out of pocket expense not covered by the
warranty: $650. He told the man to get off his property.


Same here (Las Vegas) and about the same price. I found out the
company was from Kalifornia, operating in Nevada. I kindly explained
the house was built without the "earth quake" strap, etc. He stated it
was "new code", so I sent him packin'.

I bought a new water heater, installed it and was refunded the cost
of the water heater from the house warranty.. no permits.

I do get permits (built stucco patio cover) when it is required by
the home owners association (HOA)... The CCR's required them, plus the
neighbors had to signoff on the "neighborhood impact statement"
(acknowledging I'm building onto the house). If it's inside the house
I don't get permits.


Oren
"My doctor says I have a malformed public-duty gland
and a natural deficiency in moral fiber, and that I am therefore
excused from saving Universes."
  #12   Report Post  
Norminn
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

SteveB wrote:

Yesterday, I saw the new neighbor draining his hot water heater. He had
just bought the house. I went over and asked what was up. He said his hot
water heater went out. He has owned the house for only a month.

He got the house warranty. The installer said that it would cost him $45
service call, and that he needed to replace the supply lines, install
earthquake straps (we live in Las Vegas) and put a catch pan under the new
heater. He also said that it would require a permit, that he would get it,
and that would be $150. Total out of pocket expense not covered by the


Your neighbor might have talked to the "crook of the month". I got
curious, so I did a google search. If I read the permit app right, it
costs $20.85 for a water heater. Link:
http://dsnet.co.clark.nv.us/dsweb/bl...bpermitapp.pdf

warranty: $650. He told the man to get off his property.


Sounds good )

He called the insurance agent who called the warranty company. They sent
another installer who did the job for $45 out of pocket expense.

You don't always need a permit. I have done major work on my properties. I
know people with experience who know codes. The work is always done to
code, and I'll be damned if I am going to go and pay to do work on my own
property. And then wait on inspectors.


Our city has very different license and permit regs depending on whether
it is single fam, multi or to be rented within a year. Seems to allow
more risk by DIYers for themselves, rather than for renters.

And don't give me that crap about having to have permits to sell. The man
who sold the house across the street did a lot of the work himself without
permits, did horrible work, and still sold the house. In today's market,
the seller is in the driver's seat.

STeve


We needed permits for hurricane shutters, AC replacement and water
heater, all of which were obtained by contractors. The only inspection
done was the electrical work on the AC, and there was no delay. The
installation was done by one crew, the electrical hookup by an electrician.

Hubby and I obtained the permit for seawall repairs for our condo,
including new drawings, to save money the contractor would have charged.
On that project, there was a stop-work order when the contractor was
ready to pour concrete for tiebacks (13) because there was water (very
little) in the excavations. The contractor was using hydraulic cement?,
the tide comes up twice a day, and this was end of day. There was no
work the following day and until around 10 am the next when the
inspector returned. The inspector, as it turned out, was the same arse
who ok'd our bad reroof with many shingles improperly nailed. On the
seawall, I had the impression that it was a racial issue, plain and
simple. The contractor had a specialty license and no complaints filed
on it; believe he has retired.
  #13   Report Post  
Norminn
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

clipped


Some towns near where I live (Gresham, Oregon) require a permit just
to change the porch light fixture. I think that is getting
ridiculous and potentially leads to petty situations where your nosy
neighbors might "turn you in" just for replacing the porch light.

Beachcomber



My hubby has a buddy who always volunteers to "help" with repairs, and
who does the most assinine, incompetent and hideous looking work I've
ever seen. His work always requires rework. He put down pavers on
concrete walk, used a level to make sure each was level but didn't tamp
them so they are all at different heights ) Uses spray foam to
remplace rotted studs in a wood partition ) He offered to help tile
our living room and dining room, which almost sent me to the hospital
with palpitations. Even my hubby knew that was a bad idea )
  #14   Report Post  
dean
 
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Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

[OP]

I was concerned that the insurance would not pay up if my house burnt
down, if I didn't have a permit and documentation at the township. The
insurance told me that as long as its done to code and wasn't installed
wrong, the all would be ok. I'm putting in a wood burning central
heating system and chimney liner.

Dean

  #15   Report Post  
lukeo
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

Here is an example for you (a little off-topic but related):

I had an early college job (a long time ago) assisting in the
installation of business telephone systems. This involved running lots
of cable. We had permits to run cable.

We were running cable in a crawlspace above a parking garage that was
underneath the business. An inspector came around and looked at our
cable and said we needed to run plenum cable since this was also an
air space (fair enough). So the job got shut down while a flurry of
phone calls were made.

About an hour later (after we heard the property owner called someone
in the city inspectors office - perhaps even higher up) the problem
went away along with the inspector. Work continued on. Somehow someone
changed the classification of that crawlspace so we could continue on.

Now... who was right? Us or the inspector? Or who pays the taxes?

The moral he Permit or no permit you can still bend the rules if
you know the rule makers.


On 1 Nov 2005 22:31:32 -0800, "dean" wrote:

Like (for example):

When adding a single new circuit.
When installing a generator back-up switch.
Installing a chimney liner.

I mean, I'm all for code and everything, but it is a pain and it is
very slow, and requires a day off to wait for the inspector...

-Dean




  #16   Report Post  
John Willis
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

On 1 Nov 2005 22:31:32 -0800, "dean" scribbled
this interesting note:

Like (for example):

When adding a single new circuit.
When installing a generator back-up switch.
Installing a chimney liner.

I mean, I'm all for code and everything, but it is a pain and it is
very slow, and requires a day off to wait for the inspector...

-Dean


We live in North Texas (the DFW area). One of my parent's rent houses
had a fire in a corner bedroom (16 year old girl, unsupervised,
lighting a candle and then talking on the phone. Match not
extinguished and dropped on bed...) Extensive smoke damage and water
damage. We did our homework. We talked with Building Inspections. We
were told we didn't need any permits. So we gutted the home down to
the studs in the walls, did the work to code, and now the interior of
that home, which was originally built in the 1950s, is now only a few
years old. No permits required, except possibly for the electrical
work, but I'm uncertain about that as we hired that job out.


--
John Willis

(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)
  #17   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 18:47:50 GMT, lukeo wrote:

About an hour later (after we heard the property owner called someone
in the city inspectors office - perhaps even higher up) the problem
went away along with the inspector. Work continued on. Somehow someone
changed the classification of that crawlspace so we could continue on.

Now... who was right? Us or the inspector? Or who pays the taxes?

The moral he Permit or no permit you can still bend the rules if
you know the rule makers.


When a turd hits the fan, the agency will be in denial saying it was
not authorized. After Hurricane Andrew hit Dade County, FL it was
found that inspectors were on the *take* and some went to prosecution.
They bent the rules!

Oren

"My doctor says I have a malformed public-duty gland
and a natural deficiency in moral fiber, and that I am therefore
excused from saving Universes."
  #18   Report Post  
The Real Tom
 
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Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

On 1 Nov 2005 22:31:32 -0800, "dean" wrote:

Like (for example):

When adding a single new circuit.
When installing a generator back-up switch.
Installing a chimney liner.

I mean, I'm all for code and everything, but it is a pain and it is
very slow, and requires a day off to wait for the inspector...

-Dean



I've found many city codes, speaking of electrical here, allow for
licensed personel to perform the work without permits if the project
is 'small'. Usually a dollar amount. Not suggesting you shouldn't
obtain a permit, but I use the local codes in this case as a guildline
for what I want to get permited and not.

But officially, I would always contact your local inspectors for their
advice, they are there to help you.

hth,

tom @ www.CarFleaMarket.com
  #19   Report Post  
Percival P. Cassidy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

On 11/02/05 04:37 pm The Real Tom tossed the following ingredients into
the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

I've found many city codes, speaking of electrical here, allow for
licensed personel to perform the work without permits if the project
is 'small'. Usually a dollar amount. Not suggesting you shouldn't
obtain a permit, but I use the local codes in this case as a guildline
for what I want to get permited and not.

But officially, I would always contact your local inspectors for their
advice, they are there to help you.


Our township code says only that a permit is required if the job will
cost $200 or more; nothing about needing a licensed person for wiring,
plumbing, or anything else. And, yes, I did search the code (on line)
for the word "electric." When we had a basement window enlarged to
comply with current "egress window" standards, I asked the contractor
about a permit, but he said not to bother.

Perce
  #20   Report Post  
George E. Cawthon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

dean wrote:
[OP]

I was concerned that the insurance would not pay up if my house burnt
down, if I didn't have a permit and documentation at the township. The
insurance told me that as long as its done to code and wasn't installed
wrong, the all would be ok. I'm putting in a wood burning central
heating system and chimney liner.

Dean


I'd be less concerned with whether the insurance
company would pay and more concerned with whether
the house might burn down. If you do stuff
correctly, whether it is to code or not, you won't
need insurance to fix it. Correctly has nothing
to do with code. For a stove installation, the
primary concern should be that the closest
surfaces don't get hot, not hot enough to burn,
just not hot, like no more than hand touch warm.
There are a lot of ways to do that and most
probably violate code. The second thing you need
to do is burn the stove correctly and clean the
chimney often.


  #21   Report Post  
yaofeng
 
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Default Do you ever not bother with permits?


dean wrote:
Like (for example):

When adding a single new circuit.
When installing a generator back-up switch.
Installing a chimney liner.

I mean, I'm all for code and everything, but it is a pain and it is
very slow, and requires a day off to wait for the inspector...

-Dean


Do we need permit for the air we breathe? If my town has any say,
it'll say yes.

  #22   Report Post  
Bill
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

"John Willis" wrote in message

...were told we didn't need any permits. So we gutted the home
down to the studs in the walls...


Yes "needing a permit or not" varies in different parts of the country. I
think in some remote areas, there is no building inspection whatsoever.

But it is good to still good do things to code if possible. Building codes
are based on accidents which have happened in the past, and are designed to
protect life and property. And that is *your* life and property they are
designed to protect BTW...


  #23   Report Post  
mm
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:03:40 -0800, wrote:

On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 07:38:32 -0800, "SteveB"
wrote:

He got the house warranty. The installer said that it would cost him $45
service call, and that he needed to replace the supply lines, install
earthquake straps (we live in Las Vegas) and put a catch pan under the new
heater. He also said that it would require a permit, that he would get it,
and that would be $150. Total out of pocket expense not covered by the
warranty: $650. He told the man to get off his property.


Same here (Las Vegas) and about the same price. I found out the
company was from Kalifornia, operating in Nevada. I kindly explained
the house was built without the "earth quake" strap, etc. He stated it
was "new code", so I sent him packin'.

I bought a new water heater, installed it and was refunded the cost
of the water heater from the house warranty.. no permits.

I do get permits (built stucco patio cover) when it is required by
the home owners association (HOA)... The CCR's required them, plus the
neighbors had to signoff on the "neighborhood impact statement"
(acknowledging I'm building onto the house). If it's inside the house
I don't get permits.


What would you do if you were just building a deck, the same size all
the neighbors' new ones are, 12'x12', two feet off the ground, and you
were expanding the basement with a new 12x12 room right under the
deck?

Permit or no?

Oren


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.
  #24   Report Post  
Edwin Pawlowski
 
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Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

"mm" wrote in message
What would you do if you were just building a deck, the same size all
the neighbors' new ones are, 12'x12', two feet off the ground, and you
were expanding the basement with a new 12x12 room right under the
deck?

Permit or no?


Where do you live and how close are the neighbors? Too visible and big
enough project and easy to get caught in most places, but out in the
country, I'd just do it. . I'd go for the permit in town. OTOH, when I
took down my 10 x 12 deck and put up a 12 x 16, no permit. I just figured it
was a repair.



  #25   Report Post  
The Real Tom
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 17:20:27 -0500, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 11/02/05 04:37 pm The Real Tom tossed the following ingredients into
the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

I've found many city codes, speaking of electrical here, allow for
licensed personel to perform the work without permits if the project
is 'small'. Usually a dollar amount. Not suggesting you shouldn't
obtain a permit, but I use the local codes in this case as a guildline
for what I want to get permited and not.

But officially, I would always contact your local inspectors for their
advice, they are there to help you.


Our township code says only that a permit is required if the job will
cost $200 or more; nothing about needing a licensed person for wiring,
plumbing, or anything else. And, yes, I did search the code (on line)
for the word "electric." When we had a basement window enlarged to
comply with current "egress window" standards, I asked the contractor
about a permit, but he said not to bother.

Perce



Well the permit requirements I referred to was a local city, the
little bourgh I live in just required all electrical work be performed
per the accepted NEC.

As for the window resizing, I don't think my little bourgh would
require a permit for that. A little secret I've learned, most permits
might be based on some 'safety' issue, but many towns use it as a mean
to keep track of improvements and raise individual taxes. Oh my I
said it, the secret is out.

Now, anothe thing as a contractor, the permit requirements here have
teh contractor tasked with the responsiblity of obtaining the needed
permits. So, I'm curious why as a home owner you HAD to ask.

later,

tom


  #26   Report Post  
The Real Tom
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

On 2 Nov 2005 17:27:38 -0800, "yaofeng" wrote:


dean wrote:
Like (for example):

When adding a single new circuit.
When installing a generator back-up switch.
Installing a chimney liner.

I mean, I'm all for code and everything, but it is a pain and it is
very slow, and requires a day off to wait for the inspector...

-Dean


Do we need permit for the air we breathe? If my town has any say,
it'll say yes.



Yes. My town has a 'per body' tax. Each adult needs to pay $10 bucks
per year to live and breath in my town.

I've always paid, affraid to find out what happens if you don't.



tom
  #27   Report Post  
Percival P. Cassidy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

On 11/03/05 09:22 am The Real Tom tossed the following ingredients into
the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

Our township code says only that a permit is required if the job will
cost $200 or more; nothing about needing a licensed person for wiring,
plumbing, or anything else. And, yes, I did search the code (on line)
for the word "electric." When we had a basement window enlarged to
comply with current "egress window" standards, I asked the contractor
about a permit, but he said not to bother.


Well the permit requirements I referred to was a local city, the
little bourgh I live in just required all electrical work be performed
per the accepted NEC.

As for the window resizing, I don't think my little bourgh would
require a permit for that. A little secret I've learned, most permits
might be based on some 'safety' issue, but many towns use it as a mean
to keep track of improvements and raise individual taxes. Oh my I
said it, the secret is out.

Now, anothe thing as a contractor, the permit requirements here have
teh contractor tasked with the responsiblity of obtaining the needed
permits. So, I'm curious why as a home owner you HAD to ask.


I didn't know whose responsibility it was to obtain the permit, so I
asked the contractor, thinking that perhaps *I* would have to get it and
that any permit fee might be in addition to the price I had been quoted
for the job.

Perce
  #28   Report Post  
Chris Lewis
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

According to The Real Tom Tom @ www.Love-Calculators.com:
As for the window resizing, I don't think my little bourgh would
require a permit for that. A little secret I've learned, most permits
might be based on some 'safety' issue, but many towns use it as a mean
to keep track of improvements and raise individual taxes. Oh my I
said it, the secret is out.


I used to think it was a combination of safety and taxes. Not as
much anymore.

Watch "Holmes on Homes" sometime[+].

Permits/inspections are primarily a method by which you the homeowner
doesn't get screwed by sloppy/incompetent/unethical contractors.

In most areas, anything more complicated than simple redecorating
needs permits (unless there's specific exemptions for it).

If the contractor says "you don't need a permit to add a new room"
for example, you'd better trust him a lot, because if he screws
up, you're screwed too.

Holmes says "if he says a permit isn't necessary, _run_!".

Holmes periodically has examples where the contractor
said "no permit is needed" (or lie and say "one's on the
way"), they botch the job thoroughly, and when you start
trying to get the contractor to fix it, they report you to
the municipality for not getting a permit.

The definition of chutzpah...

Think of a permit as an insurance policy. It doesn't ALWAYS
protect you, but, especially if you're not familiar with
proper building techniques, it has a very good chance of
catching something wrong before it becomes a major disaster
that costs more to fix than the original job cost in the first
place.

Unethical contractors will obviously prefer you didn't get
a permit, figuring that they won't get caught for poor
workmanship.

It isn't even necessarily unethical ones. Contractors have
their strengths and weaknesses. One that can build a good
house may suck at foundations.

There are times where I understand the work to be done well
enough (especially if I'm doing it myself) that I can
identify a good job, and I don't think I need a permit. But
if it's something I'm not competent enough to inspect it
properly myself, I'll insist on a permit.

[+] Mike Holmes is a Toronto-based contractor who has a TV
show on HGTV and a few other stations. His show is all
about the disasters contractors make, and their consequences.
A fascinating show. We've had our own "Holmes moments"
while renovating our bathroom (plumber practically severed two
adjacent joists to put a drain in, the tub shutoff valves were
hidden behind a "permanent" plywood wall. I'm having to
sister lumber in to reinforce the joists, and the shutoff valves
will be behind a door). The irony being that the plumber
who did the plumbing was building the house for himself...

[Holmes has been responsible for several contractors losing
their licenses and even one or two arrests for out-and-out
fraud.]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
  #29   Report Post  
Banty
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

In article , mm says...

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 08:03:40 -0800, wrote:

On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 07:38:32 -0800, "SteveB"
wrote:

He got the house warranty. The installer said that it would cost him $45
service call, and that he needed to replace the supply lines, install
earthquake straps (we live in Las Vegas) and put a catch pan under the new
heater. He also said that it would require a permit, that he would get it,
and that would be $150. Total out of pocket expense not covered by the
warranty: $650. He told the man to get off his property.


Same here (Las Vegas) and about the same price. I found out the
company was from Kalifornia, operating in Nevada. I kindly explained
the house was built without the "earth quake" strap, etc. He stated it
was "new code", so I sent him packin'.

I bought a new water heater, installed it and was refunded the cost
of the water heater from the house warranty.. no permits.

I do get permits (built stucco patio cover) when it is required by
the home owners association (HOA)... The CCR's required them, plus the
neighbors had to signoff on the "neighborhood impact statement"
(acknowledging I'm building onto the house). If it's inside the house
I don't get permits.


What would you do if you were just building a deck, the same size all
the neighbors' new ones are, 12'x12', two feet off the ground, and you
were expanding the basement with a new 12x12 room right under the
deck?

Permit or no?


It depends on the town, the town rules, and the town established practice.

Seems there is some grey area. In my town, since you're adding a room under the
deck, and building a new deck (even if it's like your neighbors', it's new to
your house), you'd definitely hear from the town if they noticed. You'd want a
COO for the lower-floor room - no? The previous owners of my house had to
scramble to get the three-season porch on my house accounted for when they put
the house on the market - it had been built without permit, should have been.

It seems around here the dividing line is - fix or replace, no permit; add on or
anything significantly structurally changing, permit needed. The grey area
being replacing vs. upgrading.

There was no permit for my foundation repair. Engineer thought it was optional,
contractor didn't think it was needed. But wouldln't you know the town was
re-assessing and the photogs came around in the middle of the excavation! Heh.
No one said anything; my neighbor reported the town came back to take more
pictures after the job was done, that's been the end of it. I'll check with the
town eventually, but I think it was just documented that there was no addition
to account for.

Banty

  #30   Report Post  
John Willis
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:25:29 -0800, "Bill"
scribbled this interesting note:

"John Willis" wrote in message

...were told we didn't need any permits. So we gutted the home
down to the studs in the walls...


Yes "needing a permit or not" varies in different parts of the country. I
think in some remote areas, there is no building inspection whatsoever.

But it is good to still good do things to code if possible. Building codes
are based on accidents which have happened in the past, and are designed to
protect life and property. And that is *your* life and property they are
designed to protect BTW...


Which is why we did exactly that. Rebuild to code. Everything from
sealing up the holes in the top and bottom plates where wires and
pipes go through, to nail guards, to insulation, to the electrical
repairs. All done to code.


--
John Willis

(Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)


  #31   Report Post  
mm
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 11:31:49 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:

"mm" wrote in message
What would you do if you were just building a deck, the same size all
the neighbors' new ones are, 12'x12', two feet off the ground, and you
were expanding the basement with a new 12x12 room right under the
deck?

Permit or no?


Where do you live and how close are the neighbors? Too visible and big


I live in a townhouse at the end of one building that has 8
townhouses, in the near suburbs..

You're saying they might turn me in for the deck alone! Everyone but
me has gotten a new deck, and I don't think they will think of that.

The HOA approved my new deck, although that was before the new
neighbors moved in. But it's the same side as theirs, and I don't see
a problem.

But I'm probably going to have someone pour the basement walls, or at
least I'll have to rent an excavator. Again I think my neighbors mind
their own business, but who knows.

I guess I am going to have the concrete delivered. People will
notice, but because there are so many neighbors, everyone will think
someone else is making sure I have a permit.

The work will be up to code.

enough project and easy to get caught in most places, but out in the
country, I'd just do it. . I'd go for the permit in town. OTOH, when I
took down my 10 x 12 deck and put up a 12 x 16, no permit. I just figured it
was a repair.


That seems fair to me. I'm replacing a 12 x 5 deck. I would go to 12
x16, and have a bigger basement room too, except there would be little
left of my back yard.

The new room is just for storage. There won't be any electricity in
it except for a ceiling light and one receptacle.

I wanted to start building this next spring.



Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.
  #32   Report Post  
Banty
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

In article , mm says...

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 11:31:49 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:

"mm" wrote in message
What would you do if you were just building a deck, the same size all
the neighbors' new ones are, 12'x12', two feet off the ground, and you
were expanding the basement with a new 12x12 room right under the
deck?

Permit or no?


Where do you live and how close are the neighbors? Too visible and big


I live in a townhouse at the end of one building that has 8
townhouses, in the near suburbs..

You're saying they might turn me in for the deck alone! Everyone but
me has gotten a new deck, and I don't think they will think of that.


How do you know they all didn't get permits for their decks?

Really - for this, I'd check with the town. I'm not saying one has to get
permits for everyting (see my other post), but what do you gain by not getting a
permit, especially for that extension you're putting in?


The HOA approved my new deck, although that was before the new
neighbors moved in. But it's the same side as theirs, and I don't see
a problem.

But I'm probably going to have someone pour the basement walls, or at
least I'll have to rent an excavator. Again I think my neighbors mind
their own business, but who knows.


??

It's not a matter of placating evul-meenie neighbors, it's a matter of needing
to document that your *addition* is structurally sound.

Say something happens at the site, or the excavation is really sloppy. The
neighbors complain about that - not to be evul meenies and turn you in - just
that they don't care for the backhoe tearing up a part of their yard, and the
town discovers the work? Can you say "stop work order"?

I'd just get the permit if your municipality requires it. What do you lose?

Banty

  #33   Report Post  
HerHusband
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

perform the work without permits if the project is 'small'.
Usually a dollar amount.


All Electrical work in my area is supposed to be permitted and inspected.
I've always gotten permits for new service installations, but for a simple
outlet addition, minor circuit modification, or "maintenance" (i.e.
replacing a light or outlet), I wouldn't waste my time or theirs. Of
course, I always make sure my work is up to code or better, regardless of
whether I obtain a permit.

As for building permits, our local building department has a web site that
details when a permit is needed:

-----
Any residential non-structural project valued under $1,500 does not require
a building permit. However, mechanical (heating, ventilating) and plumbing
alterations or additions require a permit from the first dollar of value.
Just because a permit may not be needed for your project, there are still
minimum standards of quality which apply. For example, if you replace your
old windows with new double or triple-glazed windows, you will not need a
building permit as long as the value of the project doesn't exceed $1,500
and there are no structural changes to the residence. However, the windows
and installation must still meet energy code requirements for new window
installations. If you are employing a contractor to build your project,
you'll need to include the contractor's charges when determining whether or
not you meet the $1,500 threshold.

Building permits are not required for the construction or alteration of
agricultural buildings. However, mechanical (heating, ventilating) and
plumbing alterations or additions require a permit from the first dollar of
value. To qualify as an agricultural building, the use of the structure
must be limited to storage of feed, agricultural equipment such as
tractors, and the housing of animals. If you park your recreational vehicle
or personal vehicles in the building, it no longer qualifies as an
agricultural building. While permits are not needed for these buildings,
there are still zoning regulations which require a minimum distance from
the building to the property line and other structures. In most cases,
setback standards for agricultural buildings are greater than setbacks for
garages and houses. You should call or visit the county Development
Services Division to obtain setback information prior to starting your
agricultural building project.
-----

  #34   Report Post  
Norminn
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

clipped

The new room is just for storage. There won't be any electricity in
it except for a ceiling light and one receptacle.

I wanted to start building this next spring.



Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.


Do you have a setback requirement in your code? Are you adhering to it?
If you have a HOA, and the concrete truck causes a crack in parking lot
pavement, will anyone get PO'd? Call the code enforcement folks? Make
you fill in your new basement? That is more risk than my cowardly guts
would take on ) At least make sure the kids don't have a party while
you are away and have 100 of their heaviest friends on the deck )
  #35   Report Post  
webmz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

While I am not sure about hot water heaters.
I do know that in Florida, where I reside permits are cheap.
More importantly if a permit is required for something done to your
home & you fail to get the required permit, your insurance company
(home owners,hurricane,etc) can refuse to pay your claims for items
that are not done to code or with required permits.
AND they don't ask you if items were done to code, or ask if you got
required permits ; they log online into the building code dept and can
bring up any & all building repairs done on your property. [ some sort
of agreement between these agencies]
And while permits are a nuisance and cheap here, FL homeowners
insurance is 5 times the national average per square foot, so I'd be
wasting my money to pay 3K for home owners insurance and then not have
it cover something , say something like a wooden fence. [using that as
an example]
Do I personally think you need to have an engineering degree to
construct a wooden fence on your property ? Heck No!!
But Florida home owners insurance is extremely high and are allowed to
dictate all sorts of "reasons" for not covering damages, so they do not
have to pay claims. There are not many companies writing home owners
coverage here, so changing your insurance company isn't an option.
I've lived at my residence for 12 years ; my homeowners insurance in
1993 was $450; currntly it's $3K a year & ironically it doesn't even
cover the complete value of my home, because I can't afford to pay for
more. So $25-$75 for a permit? or next time a hurricane blows over your
$8K wooden fence,it's just too bad?



  #36   Report Post  
The Real Tom
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:08:09 -0000, (Chris
Lewis) wrote:

According to The Real Tom Tom @ www.Love-Calculators.com:
As for the window resizing, I don't think my little bourgh would
require a permit for that. A little secret I've learned, most permits
might be based on some 'safety' issue, but many towns use it as a mean
to keep track of improvements and raise individual taxes. Oh my I
said it, the secret is out.


I used to think it was a combination of safety and taxes. Not as
much anymore.

Watch "Holmes on Homes" sometime[+].


Oh I do, love the show. I'm a strong believer that the line of
defense for a home owner is education.

1. Inspectors are your friend(no seriously). Give one a call and ask
them directly. One might even come out and check out what the work
will involve and give you an educated answer to your questions.

2. Even if a permit is NOT required, only use contractors that are
referred by real customers. Seek suggestions from work, church,
family.

3. USE THE BBB. Example: There is a contractor in a nearby city.
Some inspectors want to get their hands on him, but he always covers
his arse. He tells the home owner to pull the permit to save money.
If the home owner says no, he leaves. If the home owner does, they
have a deal. The contractor does shoddy work(because he subs it out
to unqualified people), and when it comes to inspection time, the home
owner is hit for the violations. Home owners embarrished when they
find out what happened do not legaly fight the contractor, often hire
a real one to come in and finish the work. This 'bad' contractor has
three hits on the BBB, and he finds victims.

4. Once you get a contactor, ask hime for example work and previous
customers referrals.

Now we don't have to beat this dead horse, but the above will usually
protect you from bad work. I've even thought about using escrow
services for really big projects as a fall back. When someone asks
about my work, I am proud to tell them, and after I'm done with a
customer I ask them politely if in the future I can use them as a
referral. But then, I like working and making customers happy, a big
chump.

Oh, so I still sincerely stand by my leaning towards getting a permit
if borderline. Also, some homeowners let me have access to their
properties, so I deal 100% with the inspection and permit process.

hth,

tom

Permits/inspections are primarily a method by which you the homeowner
doesn't get screwed by sloppy/incompetent/unethical contractors.

In most areas, anything more complicated than simple redecorating
needs permits (unless there's specific exemptions for it).

If the contractor says "you don't need a permit to add a new room"
for example, you'd better trust him a lot, because if he screws
up, you're screwed too.

Holmes says "if he says a permit isn't necessary, _run_!".

Holmes periodically has examples where the contractor
said "no permit is needed" (or lie and say "one's on the
way"), they botch the job thoroughly, and when you start
trying to get the contractor to fix it, they report you to
the municipality for not getting a permit.

The definition of chutzpah...

Think of a permit as an insurance policy. It doesn't ALWAYS
protect you, but, especially if you're not familiar with
proper building techniques, it has a very good chance of
catching something wrong before it becomes a major disaster
that costs more to fix than the original job cost in the first
place.

Unethical contractors will obviously prefer you didn't get
a permit, figuring that they won't get caught for poor
workmanship.

It isn't even necessarily unethical ones. Contractors have
their strengths and weaknesses. One that can build a good
house may suck at foundations.

There are times where I understand the work to be done well
enough (especially if I'm doing it myself) that I can
identify a good job, and I don't think I need a permit. But
if it's something I'm not competent enough to inspect it
properly myself, I'll insist on a permit.

[+] Mike Holmes is a Toronto-based contractor who has a TV
show on HGTV and a few other stations. His show is all
about the disasters contractors make, and their consequences.
A fascinating show. We've had our own "Holmes moments"
while renovating our bathroom (plumber practically severed two
adjacent joists to put a drain in, the tub shutoff valves were
hidden behind a "permanent" plywood wall. I'm having to
sister lumber in to reinforce the joists, and the shutoff valves
will be behind a door). The irony being that the plumber
who did the plumbing was building the house for himself...

[Holmes has been responsible for several contractors losing
their licenses and even one or two arrests for out-and-out
fraud.]


  #37   Report Post  
Edwin Pawlowski
 
Posts: n/a
Default Do you ever not bother with permits?

"mm" wrote in message

You're saying they might turn me in for the deck alone! Everyone but
me has gotten a new deck, and I don't think they will think of that.


All it takes is one prick that you ****ed of by parking too close to his car
or starting your lawn mower too early one day. Never underestimate the
wrath of a neighbor who's lawn your dog crapped on.




That seems fair to me. I'm replacing a 12 x 5 deck. I would go to 12
x16, and have a bigger basement room too, except there would be little
left of my back yard.


Where is that room in conjunction wiht the neighbor? If he is sitting in
his yard, is ot going to block his view? Shade his garden? In a townhouse
situation, that can really PO the neighbor.



The new room is just for storage. There won't be any electricity in
it except for a ceiling light and one receptacle.


One light or a 200A panel and lots of equipment. The inspector will still
nab you if you are turned in.

The situation you describe sure begs for someone to rat you out. too much
going on, too big a project to hide. It will take more than a $20 handshake
to fix.


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