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  #1   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed

Rental apartment situation ... no access to circuit breakers. Tested
using Snapit 3 light circuit tester. I found two outlets that had
"hot/neutral reversed" [HNR from here on out].

Now I obviously cannot and would not attempt any repair for perhaps 10
reasons (I have checked out a good 30 postings on the subject).

What I am asking is under what circumsances will I KILL myself. One of
the HNR outlets is next to a good outlet. So if I have a floor lamp
plugged into the good outlet and another lamp plugged into the HNR and
I touch both lamps (presumably in good electrical condition), am I
going to be zapped? The lamps clearly would not have a ground type
plug. Am I less likely to die if both appliances are grounded? One
grounded one not??? I have to assume that if there is any electrical
fault in the lamp (or appliance), then I am going to be in trouble.

I am NOT using the HNR that is next to a good outlet. The one HNR that
is pretty isolated is being used but I presume the only exposure here
is using the vac or any long corded appliance. I also will not use the
HNR with a computer or accessories.

While I will bring this up with the landlord, I do not want to cause
undue alarm.

Wes in NJ

  #2   Report Post  
RBM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed

Typically lamps are not grounded. The "hot" wire should connect to the
tongue in the socket and the neutral connects to the threaded part of the
socket. The likelihood of you getting electrocuted by this is probably
extremely small.
wrote in message
oups.com...
Rental apartment situation ... no access to circuit breakers. Tested
using Snapit 3 light circuit tester. I found two outlets that had
"hot/neutral reversed" [HNR from here on out].

Now I obviously cannot and would not attempt any repair for perhaps 10
reasons (I have checked out a good 30 postings on the subject).

What I am asking is under what circumsances will I KILL myself. One of
the HNR outlets is next to a good outlet. So if I have a floor lamp
plugged into the good outlet and another lamp plugged into the HNR and
I touch both lamps (presumably in good electrical condition), am I
going to be zapped? The lamps clearly would not have a ground type
plug. Am I less likely to die if both appliances are grounded? One
grounded one not??? I have to assume that if there is any electrical
fault in the lamp (or appliance), then I am going to be in trouble.

I am NOT using the HNR that is next to a good outlet. The one HNR that
is pretty isolated is being used but I presume the only exposure here
is using the vac or any long corded appliance. I also will not use the
HNR with a computer or accessories.

While I will bring this up with the landlord, I do not want to cause
undue alarm.

Wes in NJ



  #3   Report Post  
Shaun Eli
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed

Well, it depends upon whether the lamps have polarized plugs. If they
don't, you could actually have the same situation with two
correctly-wired outlets if one lamp is plugged in with the hot and
neutral reversed because the plug is upside-down.

I would guess that IF the lamp's base is grounded you could hurt
yourself in your scenario, but I can't see your lamps.

Shaun Eli
www.BrainChampagne.com
Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for the Smart Mind (sm)

  #4   Report Post  
RBM
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed

FYI: the body of the fixture should not under normal circumstances be
connected to either the hot or the neutral wire





"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...



Typically lamps are not grounded. The "hot" wire should connect to the
tongue in the socket and the neutral connects to the threaded part of the
socket. The likelihood of you getting electrocuted by this is probably
extremely small.
wrote in message
oups.com...
Rental apartment situation ... no access to circuit breakers. Tested
using Snapit 3 light circuit tester. I found two outlets that had
"hot/neutral reversed" [HNR from here on out].

Now I obviously cannot and would not attempt any repair for perhaps 10
reasons (I have checked out a good 30 postings on the subject).

What I am asking is under what circumsances will I KILL myself. One of
the HNR outlets is next to a good outlet. So if I have a floor lamp
plugged into the good outlet and another lamp plugged into the HNR and
I touch both lamps (presumably in good electrical condition), am I
going to be zapped? The lamps clearly would not have a ground type
plug. Am I less likely to die if both appliances are grounded? One
grounded one not??? I have to assume that if there is any electrical
fault in the lamp (or appliance), then I am going to be in trouble.

I am NOT using the HNR that is next to a good outlet. The one HNR that
is pretty isolated is being used but I presume the only exposure here
is using the vac or any long corded appliance. I also will not use the
HNR with a computer or accessories.

While I will bring this up with the landlord, I do not want to cause
undue alarm.

Wes in NJ





  #5   Report Post  
Edwin Pawlowski
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed


wrote in message
....
Rental apartment situation ... no access to circuit breakers.


That is a rather dangerous situation. What if you MUST turn off the
breaker? What if you plug in something and trip the breaker? If you cannot
resolve that situation, consider moving.




  #6   Report Post  
Joseph Meehan
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed

wrote:
Rental apartment situation ... no access to circuit breakers. Tested
using Snapit 3 light circuit tester. I found two outlets that had
"hot/neutral reversed" [HNR from here on out].

Now I obviously cannot and would not attempt any repair for perhaps 10
reasons (I have checked out a good 30 postings on the subject).

What I am asking is under what circumsances will I KILL myself. One
of the HNR outlets is next to a good outlet. So if I have a floor
lamp plugged into the good outlet and another lamp plugged into the
HNR and I touch both lamps (presumably in good electrical condition),
am I going to be zapped? The lamps clearly would not have a ground
type plug. Am I less likely to die if both appliances are grounded?
One grounded one not??? I have to assume that if there is any
electrical fault in the lamp (or appliance), then I am going to be in
trouble.

I am NOT using the HNR that is next to a good outlet. The one HNR
that is pretty isolated is being used but I presume the only exposure
here is using the vac or any long corded appliance. I also will not
use the HNR with a computer or accessories.

While I will bring this up with the landlord, I do not want to cause
undue alarm.

Wes in NJ


It is safe to use any device or lamp that does not have a polarized plug
(one with one prong larger than the other so it will only fit in the outlet
one way). Most devices with polarized plugs are also safe, but it may not
be easy to be sure. I would avoid using any polarized plug device in those
outlets. I would also suggest contacting the owner and having it fixed.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit


  #7   Report Post  
buffalobill
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed

do not connect the hot to one hand, and the neutral or ground to the
other hand, to electrocute your heart muscle. all beginner
electricians keep one hand in their pocket at all times.
instead of living with a shock hazard,
1. go to walmart electrical department and buy 2 portable GFI's. around
$10 each. plug one into an outlet and it will trip before allowing you
to get killed.
2. use one to test all your appliances and outlets for a shock hazard.
handle your questionable lamps to test them this way in both on and off
modes.
3. the landlord won't be too excited if an electrician replaced your
troublesome outlets at your expense.
4, the lamp shock hazard is reduced by the manufacturer when the hot
appears at the center socket terminal to the lightbulb. this is
accomplished when using a polarized plug in a properly wired outlet. a
digital multimeter will allow you to identify the plug's short hot
prong versus the neutral taller prong and correct any miswired lamps.

  #8   Report Post  
Pop
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. ..
:
: wrote in message
: ...
: Rental apartment situation ... no access to circuit breakers.
:
: That is a rather dangerous situation. What if you MUST turn
off the
: breaker? What if you plug in something and trip the breaker?
If you cannot
: resolve that situation, consider moving.
:
:
Yeah, that struck me, too. Completely unacceptable. I'm
wondering if the OP simply doesn't know where the breakers are
and/or is afraid to bother asking.



  #9   Report Post  
Mike Dobony
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
FYI: the body of the fixture should not under normal circumstances be
connected to either the hot or the neutral wire



Key woird here is "normal." What is that? Much of today's stuff is trash.
Do NOT assume that this is the case. Also old equipment can have the
insulation worn out and contacting the body, wires could be frayed and
contact the body, bug bodies between wire and body, etc. Unless checked
out, play it safe and do not use the reversed outlet for anything in
questionable or untested condition. It should not damage any equipment, but
personal safety is in question.




"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...



Typically lamps are not grounded. The "hot" wire should connect to the
tongue in the socket and the neutral connects to the threaded part of

the
socket. The likelihood of you getting electrocuted by this is probably
extremely small.
wrote in message
oups.com...
Rental apartment situation ... no access to circuit breakers. Tested
using Snapit 3 light circuit tester. I found two outlets that had
"hot/neutral reversed" [HNR from here on out].

Now I obviously cannot and would not attempt any repair for perhaps 10
reasons (I have checked out a good 30 postings on the subject).

What I am asking is under what circumsances will I KILL myself. One of
the HNR outlets is next to a good outlet. So if I have a floor lamp
plugged into the good outlet and another lamp plugged into the HNR and
I touch both lamps (presumably in good electrical condition), am I
going to be zapped? The lamps clearly would not have a ground type
plug. Am I less likely to die if both appliances are grounded? One
grounded one not??? I have to assume that if there is any electrical
fault in the lamp (or appliance), then I am going to be in trouble.

I am NOT using the HNR that is next to a good outlet. The one HNR that
is pretty isolated is being used but I presume the only exposure here
is using the vac or any long corded appliance. I also will not use the
HNR with a computer or accessories.

While I will bring this up with the landlord, I do not want to cause
undue alarm.

Wes in NJ







  #10   Report Post  
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed

Sorry I couldn't get back on line as the thread has gone too far. I
thank all for their input. I know the situation has to be dealt with,
but as I originally said, I just wanted to have some backup that it
should be dealt with sooner rather than later.

I should have mentioned that this is a multifamily dwelling with the
live in landlord having access to the circuit breaker, and actually
that is a side issue to my main concern (the HNR outlets). We just
moved in and I have to go with the presumption that the prior tennant
had absolutely no problem with the HNR outlets. I am sure there will
be no problem with the landlord calling in his electrician.

Thanks,
Wes



  #11   Report Post  
Edwin Pawlowski
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed


"Pop" wrote in message :
:
Yeah, that struck me, too. Completely unacceptable. I'm
wondering if the OP simply doesn't know where the breakers are
and/or is afraid to bother asking.


That's possible. I'm just thinking it could be an apartment in a converted
single family and the downstairs tenant has the breaker box. I can
visualize a smoking receptacle and waiting until the landlord comes home
from vacation so you can turn the breaker off.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/


  #12   Report Post  
Edwin Pawlowski
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed


wrote in message
I am sure there will
be no problem with the landlord calling in his electrician.


I'm sure he is just happy to spend $200+ to make a tenant happy.


  #13   Report Post  
Chris Lewis
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed

According to Joseph Meehan :

It is safe to use any device or lamp that does not have a polarized plug
(one with one prong larger than the other so it will only fit in the outlet
one way). Most devices with polarized plugs are also safe, but it may not
be easy to be sure. I would avoid using any polarized plug device in those
outlets. I would also suggest contacting the owner and having it fixed.


There is NO difference between a polarized plug fixture and a non-polarized
plug fixture other than the fact that the plug is polarized.

The only reason that bulb fixtures are polarized, is that a correctly
wired outlet puts the neutral (less hazardous) on the base shell - which
you might come in contact with while changing a bulb.

If the hot is on the base shell (from a reversed outlet), the base is
hot EVEN IF the light switch is off (because the switch switches the
neutral!).

In other words, with a correctly wired outlet (and non-defective fixture),
a polarized receptacle guarantees you can't electrocute yourself from
accidentally touching the base shell of the bulb or fixture, switched on
or not.

As a corrollary, with unpolarized fixtures, or, polarized fixtures
on an hot-neutral reversed outlet, you will want to consider unplugging
the fixture before changing the bulb. It's not necessary on a polarized
fixture on a correctly wired outlet.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
  #14   Report Post  
Joseph Meehan
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed

Chris Lewis wrote:
According to Joseph Meehan :

It is safe to use any device or lamp that does not have a
polarized plug (one with one prong larger than the other so it will
only fit in the outlet one way). Most devices with polarized plugs
are also safe, but it may not be easy to be sure. I would avoid
using any polarized plug device in those outlets. I would also
suggest contacting the owner and having it fixed.


There is NO difference between a polarized plug fixture and a
non-polarized plug fixture other than the fact that the plug is
polarized.


There may be differences in how well guarded electrically live parts may
be, I just would not count on it.

It is always best to be conservative when it comes to electrical
problems.


The only reason that bulb fixtures are polarized, is that a correctly
wired outlet puts the neutral (less hazardous) on the base shell -
which you might come in contact with while changing a bulb.

If the hot is on the base shell (from a reversed outlet), the base is
hot EVEN IF the light switch is off (because the switch switches the
neutral!).

In other words, with a correctly wired outlet (and non-defective
fixture), a polarized receptacle guarantees you can't electrocute
yourself from accidentally touching the base shell of the bulb or
fixture, switched on or not.

As a corrollary, with unpolarized fixtures, or, polarized fixtures
on an hot-neutral reversed outlet, you will want to consider
unplugging the fixture before changing the bulb. It's not necessary
on a polarized fixture on a correctly wired outlet.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit


  #15   Report Post  
Charlie Bress
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
.. .

wrote in message
I am sure there will
be no problem with the landlord calling in his electrician.


I'm sure he is just happy to spend $200+ to make a tenant happy.


Well, Ed, if the guy gets injured or worse and the landlord has to explain
to the insurance company and whatever attorneys get involved he will be a
whole lot unhappier.

He is collecting rent. The premises he is renting should be safe.

Charlie




  #16   Report Post  
z
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed


Joseph Meehan wrote:
Chris Lewis wrote:
According to Joseph Meehan :

It is safe to use any device or lamp that does not have a
polarized plug (one with one prong larger than the other so it will
only fit in the outlet one way). Most devices with polarized plugs
are also safe, but it may not be easy to be sure. I would avoid
using any polarized plug device in those outlets. I would also
suggest contacting the owner and having it fixed.


There is NO difference between a polarized plug fixture and a
non-polarized plug fixture other than the fact that the plug is
polarized.


There may be differences in how well guarded electrically live parts may
be, I just would not count on it.

It is always best to be conservative when it comes to electrical
problems.


The only reason that bulb fixtures are polarized, is that a correctly
wired outlet puts the neutral (less hazardous) on the base shell -
which you might come in contact with while changing a bulb.

If the hot is on the base shell (from a reversed outlet), the base is
hot EVEN IF the light switch is off (because the switch switches the
neutral!).

In other words, with a correctly wired outlet (and non-defective
fixture), a polarized receptacle guarantees you can't electrocute
yourself from accidentally touching the base shell of the bulb or
fixture, switched on or not.

As a corrollary, with unpolarized fixtures, or, polarized fixtures
on an hot-neutral reversed outlet, you will want to consider
unplugging the fixture before changing the bulb. It's not necessary
on a polarized fixture on a correctly wired outlet.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit


Does anyone remember the classical 5 tube AM radio of the 50s, the "all
american 5"? The standard design had the chassis connected to one side
of the AC line, before polarized plugs were common. Directly, no
capacitor or resistor or such. If you were hip, you knew that you could
reduce the AC hum a bit by trying the plug both ways, sometimes when
the chassis was connected to the neutral rather than the hot there
would be an audibly lower hum. Of course, that would keep the chassis
from being electrically hot, too. Just to add to the fun, often the
chassis was attached to the case with screws whose heads were freely
touchable on the underside of the chassis. Oh yeah, those were fun
times.

  #17   Report Post  
z
 
Posts: n/a
Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed


buffalobill wrote:
do not connect the hot to one hand, and the neutral or ground to the
other hand, to electrocute your heart muscle. all beginner
electricians keep one hand in their pocket at all times.
instead of living with a shock hazard,
1. go to walmart electrical department and buy 2 portable GFI's. around
$10 each. plug one into an outlet and it will trip before allowing you
to get killed.
2. use one to test all your appliances and outlets for a shock hazard.
handle your questionable lamps to test them this way in both on and off
modes.
3. the landlord won't be too excited if an electrician replaced your
troublesome outlets at your expense.
4, the lamp shock hazard is reduced by the manufacturer when the hot
appears at the center socket terminal to the lightbulb. this is
accomplished when using a polarized plug in a properly wired outlet. a
digital multimeter will allow you to identify the plug's short hot
prong versus the neutral taller prong and correct any miswired lamps.


In an apartment I rented a while back, I discovered the hard way that
the light fixture under the cabinets, just above the kitchen sink, was
wired with the green pigtail from the built-in grounded outlet attached
to the hot lead. After I picked myself up off the floor and fervently
thanked the Lord my hands hadn't been wet, I investigated and found
that, of course, in order to accomplish this feat the armor of the BX
cable had been pushed back out of the junction box in the basement so
the ground of that whole piece of cable and the outlet could float.
Now, just the wiring error might have been a single piece of idiocy.
But obviously somebody either kept after this when the fuse kept
blowing until they "solved" it, or deliberately set up a death trap.
Having it over the kitchen sink made it particularly effective.

  #18   Report Post  
Phil Munro
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed

z wrote:
Joseph Meehan wrote:

Chris Lewis wrote:

According to Joseph Meehan :

It is safe to use any device or lamp that does not have a
polarized plug (one with one prong larger than the other so it will
only fit in the outlet one way). Most devices with polarized plugs
are also safe, but it may not be easy to be sure. I would avoid
using any polarized plug device in those outlets. I would also
suggest contacting the owner and having it fixed.

There is NO difference between a polarized plug fixture and a
non-polarized plug fixture other than the fact that the plug is
polarized.


There may be differences in how well guarded electrically live parts may
be, I just would not count on it.

It is always best to be conservative when it comes to electrical
problems.


The only reason that bulb fixtures are polarized, is that a correctly
wired outlet puts the neutral (less hazardous) on the base shell -
which you might come in contact with while changing a bulb.

If the hot is on the base shell (from a reversed outlet), the base is
hot EVEN IF the light switch is off (because the switch switches the
neutral!).

In other words, with a correctly wired outlet (and non-defective
fixture), a polarized receptacle guarantees you can't electrocute
yourself from accidentally touching the base shell of the bulb or
fixture, switched on or not.

As a corrollary, with unpolarized fixtures, or, polarized fixtures
on an hot-neutral reversed outlet, you will want to consider
unplugging the fixture before changing the bulb. It's not necessary
on a polarized fixture on a correctly wired outlet.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit


Does anyone remember the classical 5 tube AM radio of the 50s, the "all
american 5"? The standard design had the chassis connected to one side
of the AC line, before polarized plugs were common. Directly, no
capacitor or resistor or such. If you were hip, you knew that you could
reduce the AC hum a bit by trying the plug both ways, sometimes when
the chassis was connected to the neutral rather than the hot there
would be an audibly lower hum. Of course, that would keep the chassis
from being electrically hot, too. Just to add to the fun, often the
chassis was attached to the case with screws whose heads were freely
touchable on the underside of the chassis. Oh yeah, those were fun
times.

My memory of those 5-tube jobs is that the chassis was NOT connected
directly to the line. Rather the line connection as ground was a
floating one, and there was a 0.1 uF capacitor between the true ground
and the chassis ground.
But this was not always the case, and some of the no-xfmr TVs of the
time DID have the AC line connected to the chassis, and the volume and
other controls were metal connected to the same chassis, so if the
plastic knob was pulled off, there would be real danger.
Of course 0.1 uF (or were they larger) also gives a significant
connection, too. --Phil

--
Phil Munro Dept of Electrical & Computer Engin
Youngstown State University
Youngstown, Ohio 44555
  #19   Report Post  
Matt
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed

Give the landlord a reasonable amount of time to make the repairs
needed. 30 days is reasonable.

If they aren't completed by then, call an electrician yourself, and
deduct the bill from the rent.

Make sure you have the electrician write up a detailed report of the
problem and resolution.

  #20   Report Post  
Shaun Eli
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed

When I put GFCI in my kitchen there was one box that had two outlets.
I plugged in a radio and turned off breakers until the radio went off.
Then, just to be sure, I plugged a circuit tester into the outlet.

It was off.

So I removed the first outlet. Then I went to remove the second outlet
and IT WAS LIVE!

Two outlets in the same junction box were on two separate breakers!

It pays to be VERY careful. I never, ever expected that.

Shaun Eli
http://www.BrainChampagne.com
Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for the Smarter Audience (sm)



  #21   Report Post  
z
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed


wrote:
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:20:27 -0400, Phil Munro
wrote:

z wrote:
Joseph Meehan wrote:

Chris Lewis wrote:

According to Joseph Meehan :

It is safe to use any device or lamp that does not have a
polarized plug (one with one prong larger than the other so it will
only fit in the outlet one way). Most devices with polarized plugs
are also safe, but it may not be easy to be sure. I would avoid
using any polarized plug device in those outlets. I would also
suggest contacting the owner and having it fixed.

There is NO difference between a polarized plug fixture and a
non-polarized plug fixture other than the fact that the plug is
polarized.

There may be differences in how well guarded electrically live parts may
be, I just would not count on it.

It is always best to be conservative when it comes to electrical
problems.


The only reason that bulb fixtures are polarized, is that a correctly
wired outlet puts the neutral (less hazardous) on the base shell -
which you might come in contact with while changing a bulb.

If the hot is on the base shell (from a reversed outlet), the base is
hot EVEN IF the light switch is off (because the switch switches the
neutral!).

In other words, with a correctly wired outlet (and non-defective
fixture), a polarized receptacle guarantees you can't electrocute
yourself from accidentally touching the base shell of the bulb or
fixture, switched on or not.

As a corrollary, with unpolarized fixtures, or, polarized fixtures
on an hot-neutral reversed outlet, you will want to consider
unplugging the fixture before changing the bulb. It's not necessary
on a polarized fixture on a correctly wired outlet.
--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Does anyone remember the classical 5 tube AM radio of the 50s, the "all
american 5"? The standard design had the chassis connected to one side
of the AC line, before polarized plugs were common. Directly, no
capacitor or resistor or such. If you were hip, you knew that you could
reduce the AC hum a bit by trying the plug both ways, sometimes when
the chassis was connected to the neutral rather than the hot there
would be an audibly lower hum. Of course, that would keep the chassis
from being electrically hot, too. Just to add to the fun, often the
chassis was attached to the case with screws whose heads were freely
touchable on the underside of the chassis. Oh yeah, those were fun
times.

My memory of those 5-tube jobs is that the chassis was NOT connected
directly to the line. Rather the line connection as ground was a
floating one, and there was a 0.1 uF capacitor between the true ground
and the chassis ground.
But this was not always the case, and some of the no-xfmr TVs of the
time DID have the AC line connected to the chassis, and the volume and
other controls were metal connected to the same chassis, so if the
plastic knob was pulled off, there would be real danger.
Of course 0.1 uF (or were they larger) also gives a significant
connection, too. --Phil



I agree Phil. The All American was the one that didn't have the hot
chassis.


Sheesh. I was being so careful for nuthin.

  #22   Report Post  
z
 
Posts: n/a
Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed


Shaun Eli wrote:
When I put GFCI in my kitchen there was one box that had two outlets.
I plugged in a radio and turned off breakers until the radio went off.
Then, just to be sure, I plugged a circuit tester into the outlet.

It was off.

So I removed the first outlet. Then I went to remove the second outlet
and IT WAS LIVE!

Two outlets in the same junction box were on two separate breakers!

It pays to be VERY careful. I never, ever expected that.

Shaun Eli
http://www.BrainChampagne.com
Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for the Smarter Audience (sm)


Unusual in home use, but quite possible. Most outlets have built in
jumpers between the two outlets which are designed to be easily
severed, leaving separate terminal screws for each. (As of course, you
have discovered). So you can have one outlet dedicated to an air
conditioner or something, and use the other without blowing the
breaker. Not as unusual in laboratories or manufacturing, etc.,
especially old ones where the total number of outlets isn't huge.

  #23   Report Post  
Shaun Eli
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed

Sure, but this was in a kitchen over the counter. No reason I can
think of to have run two separate wires to the same box. And this
house was built in the sixties, before many of the power-hungry
appliances (food processors, microwave ovens) existed.

By the way, when I said two outlets I meant two separate pieces, for a
total of four places to plug things in. It was a double-wide outlet
box.

Shaun Eli
www.BrainChampagne.com
Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for the Smart Mind (sm)

  #24   Report Post  
Duane Bozarth
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed

Shaun Eli wrote:

Sure, but this was in a kitchen over the counter. No reason I can
think of to have run two separate wires to the same box. And this
house was built in the sixties, before many of the power-hungry
appliances (food processors, microwave ovens) existed.

By the way, when I said two outlets I meant two separate pieces, for a
total of four places to plug things in. It was a double-wide outlet
box.


Being in a high-use area such as a kitchen is all the more reason to
have it split...certainly not unheard of even if not "routine". Sounds
like it was probably a custom-built home where the howeowner/designer
actually thought about what they were going to put into the kitchen...
  #25   Report Post  
Goedjn
 
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Default Electric Outlets - Hot and Neutral Reversed



Shaun Eli wrote:
When I put GFCI in my kitchen there was one box that had two outlets.
I plugged in a radio and turned off breakers until the radio went off.
Then, just to be sure, I plugged a circuit tester into the outlet.

It was off.

So I removed the first outlet. Then I went to remove the second outlet
and IT WAS LIVE!

Two outlets in the same junction box were on two separate breakers!

It pays to be VERY careful. I never, ever expected that.

Shaun Eli
http://www.BrainChampagne.com
Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for the Smarter Audience (sm)


Unusual in home use, but quite possible. Most outlets have built in
jumpers between the two outlets which are designed to be easily
severed, leaving separate terminal screws for each. (As of course, you


What you are talking about is a duplex receptacle, with the two
plugs separated. I was under the impression that that arrangement
was REQUIRED, in Canada. But I also think that OP is talking
about a quad-box with the two yokes on different circuts,
in which case I'm guessing what he's actually got is an
Edison circut where the two legs are on separate breakers,
instead of on a duplex. This isn't all THAT uncommon in any
situation where you expect to have a lot of plug-in-devices
with significant power requirments all clustered together.

But when you do that, you're supposed to tie the breakers
together, or use a duplex breaker. Since whoever wired
this didn't do that, it's worth checking whether
they're actually out of phase with each other, because if
they're not, he's overloading the shared nuetral.

--Goedjn


  #26   Report Post  
Pop
 
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"Shaun Eli" wrote in message
oups.com...
: Sure, but this was in a kitchen over the counter. No reason I
can
: think of to have run two separate wires to the same box. And
this
: house was built in the sixties, before many of the power-hungry
: appliances (food processors, microwave ovens) existed.
:
: By the way, when I said two outlets I meant two separate
pieces, for a
: total of four places to plug things in. It was a double-wide
outlet
: box.
:
: Shaun Eli
: www.BrainChampagne.com
: Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for the Smart Mind (sm)
:
Typical in many kitchens. The old refrigerators, freezers,
mixers, hot plates, slow cookers, etc. all use a lot of
electricity, the older the more most of the time. And
electricity was much cheaper back then, so lots of it got used.
Also not unusual in garages & shops. Sometimes the splits
even go to switches or dimmers instead of another breaker. Lots
of reasons to split them up.


  #27   Report Post  
Shaun Eli
 
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To be clear:

Two outlets next to each other, and there's a top and bottom to each,
so four appliances can be plugged in at once.

The fridge is nearby but on its own outlet on the wall, in a location
which was obviously meant for a fridge (I'm the second owner and the
kitchen was original when I moved in).

The kitchen counters have a lot of outlets, more than I've seen in
other houses from the sixties.

I checked every single outlet with a circuit tester before I moved in,
just to make sure that every outlet was wired correctly and was
grounded. They all were, unlike my first apartment.

Shaun Eli
http://www.BrainChampagne.com
Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for the Smarter Audience (sm)

  #28   Report Post  
Duane Bozarth
 
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Shaun Eli wrote:

To be clear:

Two outlets next to each other, and there's a top and bottom to each,
so four appliances can be plugged in at once.

....
The kitchen counters have a lot of outlets, more than I've seen in
other houses from the sixties.


Apparently not a "run of the mill" spec-built house but one built either
w/ the original occupant's needs/wants in mind or, possibly, a "demo"
unit built as the show house of a new development or for the spring
"Show of Homes" week one year.

Would have been a reasonably good "higher-end" (but relatively cheap to
do) feature for the time...microwave would be a good bet for at least
one specific "new-fangled" energy consumer.
  #29   Report Post  
Chris Lewis
 
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According to Goedjn :

What you are talking about is a duplex receptacle, with the two
plugs separated. I was under the impression that that arrangement
was REQUIRED, in Canada.


WAS required. Because of new GFI requirements, and the cost of
dual GFI breakers, Canadian codes now permit 20A counter outlets
much like the US does as an acceptable alternative.

Split receptacles are pretty common in older US homes too.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
  #30   Report Post  
z
 
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Shaun Eli wrote:
Sure, but this was in a kitchen over the counter. No reason I can
think of to have run two separate wires to the same box. And this
house was built in the sixties, before many of the power-hungry
appliances (food processors, microwave ovens) existed.

By the way, when I said two outlets I meant two separate pieces, for a
total of four places to plug things in. It was a double-wide outlet
box.


Ahh. In that case, never mind.

Actually, now in labs the thing is to put in a row of outlets every
foot or two or whatever on the benches, and they alternate circuits
between 2 or 3 breakers, 1 2 3 1 2 3 etc. Sometimes they put little
colored tags on them to simplify tracing the circuits.


Shaun Eli
www.BrainChampagne.com
Brain Champagne: Clever Comedy for the Smart Mind (sm)




  #31   Report Post  
Chris Lewis
 
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According to :

Not really that uncommon above a kitchen counter.


In Canada, where having a box with multiple circuits that aren't
fed by linked breakers is illegal, it isn't that uncommon either.

Sigh.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
  #32   Report Post  
Pop
 
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"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
: According to :
:
: Not really that uncommon above a kitchen counter.
:
: In Canada, where having a box with multiple circuits that
aren't
: fed by linked breakers is illegal, it isn't that uncommon
either.
:
: Sigh.

When your life may hang in the balance, which way would you
"assume" until you'd proven it out? Read the whole thread to
understand.


  #34   Report Post  
hwm54112
 
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Two outlets in the same junction box were on two separate breakers!

It pays to be VERY careful. I never, ever expected that.

Actually, that's the way it should be done or better yet, have the top
of the receptacles on one breaker and the bottom on another. The
reasoning should be obvious as multiple circuits are required in modern
kitchens.

If you started poking around in ceiling boxes, actually any junction
box other than switch type boxes, you'd find numerous circuits.

As to OP. the wiring isn't a problem for all intents and purposes. It
never made a real difference before three prong plugs, did it?


--
hwm54112
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