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Old September 25th 05, 03:01 AM
chester
 
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Default GFCI Circuit protection question-outdoor wiring

OK complicasted question, maybe...

I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated
circuits.

1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It
will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I
simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this
outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this
circuit. Easy enough...

BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric
heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but
maybe I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if
that is GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house
(buried 12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe
in-wall heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the
buried cable does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help
c

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Old September 25th 05, 05:18 AM
RBM
 
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Default

I think you are going about the project wrong. All outlets in the shed need
to be GFCI protected. There are code issues when running multiple circuits
to an out building like disconnects, so probably the most sensible thing to
do is install a thirty or forty amp feeder(10/3G) or (8/3G) and small panel
in the shed



"chester" wrote in message
...
OK complicasted question, maybe...

I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated
circuits.

1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It
will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I
simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this
outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this
circuit. Easy enough...

BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric
heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but maybe
I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if that is
GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house (buried
12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe in-wall
heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the buried cable
does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help
c



  #3   Report Post  
Old September 25th 05, 06:35 PM
chester
 
Posts: n/a
Default

RBM wrote:
I think you are going about the project wrong. All outlets in the shed need
to be GFCI protected. There are code issues when running multiple circuits
to an out building like disconnects, so probably the most sensible thing to
do is install a thirty or forty amp feeder(10/3G) or (8/3G) and small panel
in the shed



"chester" wrote in message
...

OK complicasted question, maybe...

I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated
circuits.

1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It
will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I
simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this
outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this
circuit. Easy enough...

BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric
heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but maybe
I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if that is
GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house (buried
12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe in-wall
heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the buried cable
does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help
c




All outlets in the shed WILL be GFCI protected. They will run off the
GFCI outlet from the house, which will protect the whole circuit downstream.
  #4   Report Post  
Old September 25th 05, 07:27 PM
RBM
 
Posts: n/a
Default

If you decide to connect your heater with a cord and outlet, even 240 volt,
it will require GFCI protection as well
"chester" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:
I think you are going about the project wrong. All outlets in the shed
need to be GFCI protected. There are code issues when running multiple
circuits to an out building like disconnects, so probably the most
sensible thing to do is install a thirty or forty amp feeder(10/3G) or
(8/3G) and small panel in the shed



"chester" wrote in message
...

OK complicasted question, maybe...

I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated
circuits.

1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It
will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I
simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this
outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this
circuit. Easy enough...

BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric
heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but maybe
I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if that is
GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house (buried
12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe in-wall
heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the buried cable
does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help
c




All outlets in the shed WILL be GFCI protected. They will run off the GFCI
outlet from the house, which will protect the whole circuit downstream.



  #5   Report Post  
Old September 25th 05, 09:33 PM
chester
 
Posts: n/a
Default

RBM wrote:
If you decide to connect your heater with a cord and outlet, even 240 volt,
it will require GFCI protection as well


Yeah well, the heater will be hard-wired in, not on an outlet. I dont
think it will sepcificaly require GFCI, but I am not sure. I guess this
issue is that accessory structures may be limited in general to one
breaker off the main panel, which is the problem now, since I want a
240V heater (not 120) and so need either two lines/breakers, or a
sub-panel. I had orignially been considering a subpanel, but was steered
away from that idea by some people. I suppose code could be different
here (in seattle) but I dont really know. Guess I better check on it.

I guess my choices are

-keep it the same and not worry about it (what is the harm in having two
circuits off the main panel?
-change the heater to 120V, deal with smaller heating capacity, and use
the two wires I have already started running (they are not underground)
to one dual 20A circuit
-change the wiring to 10/3 w/g and run a 30A subpanel, wasting the $44 I
spent on 250ft of 12/2 w/g and the time under the house

dunno what sbest





All outlets in the shed WILL be GFCI protected. They will run off the GFCI
outlet from the house, which will protect the whole circuit downstream.






  #6   Report Post  
Old September 25th 05, 10:47 PM
RBM
 
Posts: n/a
Default

If the heater is hard wired, it doesn't need GFCI protection (NEC)
"chester" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:
If you decide to connect your heater with a cord and outlet, even 240
volt, it will require GFCI protection as well


Yeah well, the heater will be hard-wired in, not on an outlet. I dont
think it will sepcificaly require GFCI, but I am not sure. I guess this
issue is that accessory structures may be limited in general to one
breaker off the main panel, which is the problem now, since I want a 240V
heater (not 120) and so need either two lines/breakers, or a sub-panel. I
had orignially been considering a subpanel, but was steered away from that
idea by some people. I suppose code could be different here (in seattle)
but I dont really know. Guess I better check on it.

I guess my choices are

-keep it the same and not worry about it (what is the harm in having two
circuits off the main panel?
-change the heater to 120V, deal with smaller heating capacity, and use
the two wires I have already started running (they are not underground) to
one dual 20A circuit
-change the wiring to 10/3 w/g and run a 30A subpanel, wasting the $44 I
spent on 250ft of 12/2 w/g and the time under the house

dunno what sbest





All outlets in the shed WILL be GFCI protected. They will run off the
GFCI outlet from the house, which will protect the whole circuit
downstream.




  #7   Report Post  
Old September 26th 05, 02:00 AM
SQLit
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"chester" wrote in message
...
OK complicasted question, maybe...

I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated
circuits.

1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It
will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I
simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this
outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this
circuit. Easy enough...


I think that this is a mistake. I run some pretty heavy loads in my garage.
Sharing the circuitry with god only know what else could cause tripping of
the gfci


BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric
heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but
maybe I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if
that is GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house
(buried 12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe
in-wall heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the
buried cable does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help
c


There are several critical pieces of this puzzle that are not included.

What is the distance to the new loads? My calculations say that your new
load (heater) must be less than 145 feet total wire length. Fixed pieces of
equipment are not required to be gfci protected. That does not mean that it
is not a good idea. Any flammable liquids out in the new area?

Other threads seem to indicate that you already bought the wire. Was the
wire UF cable? NM as far as I know is not rated for direct burial.

Not knowing the path of the electrical run and the use of the area. 12
inches could be to shallow. 24 would be fine in all situations.


  #8   Report Post  
Old September 26th 05, 03:01 AM
chester
 
Posts: n/a
Default

SQLit wrote:
"chester" wrote in message
...

OK complicasted question, maybe...

I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated
circuits.

1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It
will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I
simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this
outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this
circuit. Easy enough...



I think that this is a mistake. I run some pretty heavy loads in my garage.
Sharing the circuitry with god only know what else could cause tripping of
the gfci



Well, the circuitry to the shed running the outlets and lighting is to
be a dedicated 20a/120v circuit. the only other outlet outside the shed
on this circuit will be the one outside at the house, which will rarely
be in use for anything.

BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric
heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but
maybe I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if
that is GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house
(buried 12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe
in-wall heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the
buried cable does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help
c



There are several critical pieces of this puzzle that are not included.

What is the distance to the new loads? My calculations say that your new
load (heater) must be less than 145 feet total wire length. Fixed pieces of
equipment are not required to be gfci protected. That does not mean that it
is not a good idea. Any flammable liquids out in the new area?

The distance is about 70-80 feet. Ther ewill be no flammable liquids
kept in the area. finished shed for storage/excercise, TV etc.

Other threads seem to indicate that you already bought the wire. Was the
wire UF cable? NM as far as I know is not rated for direct burial.

The wire I bought was UF cable 12/2 w/g

Not knowing the path of the electrical run and the use of the area. 12
inches could be to shallow. 24 would be fine in all situations.


I am going for 18-24, with PVC conduit.


Thanks for you input/questions. I was concerned with the two separate
circuits, but I found NEC code online, and found there are exceptions to
the rule of one circuit (including multi-branch) to an external
structure. One exception is when different voltages are supplied with
the two lines. This appears to apply to my situation. i feel a whole lot
more comfortable with two circuits, than running one multi-brnach
circuit with a 240V and 120V running off of it.


  #9   Report Post  
Old September 26th 05, 03:34 AM
gk
 
Posts: n/a
Default



The rule is you can only run one circuit or feeder to a second
building. You will either be stuck with a sub panel (ground rods,
disconnect etc) or you could run a 20a 240v (3 wire + ground) circuit
and split it out into 2 multiwire 120v circuuits that also share the
250v load (hold your nose legal) and use GFCI receptacles in the shed.
That will limit you to about 11a per 120v circuit since your heater
pulls 8.3. If you just want a light and some occasional power tool use
that may be fine.
The heater and lights do not need to be GFCI but a direct bury cable
would have to be 24" down. Wire in conduit can be 18".
120v 15 or 20a GFCI protected circuits can be 12" down
Frost heaving might make all this moot anyway. You might need to be
below the frost line. I don't know much about things that happen below
freezing.


I appreciate the input. I admit I didnt know about this rule. You got
me stressd out a bit, so I actually found the NEC online. It doesn't let
you cut and paste, but basically, rule 225.30 states that there is only
to be one feeder or brnach circuit to each structure on a property,
"unless permitted in 225.30(A)though(E). Subsection (D) states that
"Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for different
voltages, frequencies, or pahses or for different uses such as control
of outside lighting from multiple locations."

This would seem to apply to me, since I need 120V and 240V. I feel much
more comfortable using two feeder circuits for my applications than
using a multiwire branch circuit and running 120V and 240V off that same
circuit, as you mentioned (I didnt know this was possible, but I guess
it is always an option). Thanks.
  #10   Report Post  
Old September 26th 05, 04:35 AM
Don Young
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I might be wrong but I do not think your application would permit two
feeders under the different voltages provision since the 120 volts is
derived as one leg of the 240 volts and thereby CAN be provided from one
feeder. Such a provision would apply if you were supplying 480 and 120
volts, where two panels would be required. You might be more comfortable
with two feeders but that is not the normal way it's done. I think the
primary consideration is that in a fire or other emergency it is possible
for emergency personnel to shut off all power to a structure by killing the
feed without having to figure out if there might be others.
Don Young
"chester" wrote in message
...
SQLit wrote:
"chester" wrote in message
...

OK complicasted question, maybe...

I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated
circuits.

1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It
will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I
simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this
outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this
circuit. Easy enough...



I think that this is a mistake. I run some pretty heavy loads in my
garage.
Sharing the circuitry with god only know what else could cause tripping
of
the gfci



Well, the circuitry to the shed running the outlets and lighting is to be
a dedicated 20a/120v circuit. the only other outlet outside the shed on
this circuit will be the one outside at the house, which will rarely be in
use for anything.

BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric
heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but
maybe I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if
that is GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house
(buried 12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe
in-wall heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the
buried cable does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help
c



There are several critical pieces of this puzzle that are not included.

What is the distance to the new loads? My calculations say that your new
load (heater) must be less than 145 feet total wire length. Fixed pieces
of
equipment are not required to be gfci protected. That does not mean that
it
is not a good idea. Any flammable liquids out in the new area?

The distance is about 70-80 feet. Ther ewill be no flammable liquids kept
in the area. finished shed for storage/excercise, TV etc.

Other threads seem to indicate that you already bought the wire. Was the
wire UF cable? NM as far as I know is not rated for direct burial.

The wire I bought was UF cable 12/2 w/g

Not knowing the path of the electrical run and the use of the area. 12
inches could be to shallow. 24 would be fine in all situations.


I am going for 18-24, with PVC conduit.


Thanks for you input/questions. I was concerned with the two separate
circuits, but I found NEC code online, and found there are exceptions to
the rule of one circuit (including multi-branch) to an external structure.
One exception is when different voltages are supplied with the two lines.
This appears to apply to my situation. i feel a whole lot more comfortable
with two circuits, than running one multi-brnach circuit with a 240V and
120V running off of it.




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