Hi,

I see from prior postings that people think it makes little difference
what brand of a/c you go for, provided the installer is good.

well - I have just gotten quotes for a 2 zone replacement of air
handlers and condensing units (ie 2 new condensers, 2 new air handlers
+ pipework, limited duct adaptation)

The best price I can get for the Carrier systems is $13,586 after all
rebates. For the directly comperable system from Heil I've been quoted
$8600! ($8000 for the Freon version). OK the Carrier is "15.5 SEER" and
the Heil is 14+ SEER, but that doesn't account for the $5K difference!

It can't be just $5K for the brand label? c'mon, someone must have some
independant info on the different value-for-money, reliability, quality
of these various systems? anyone?



(I also got Trane, ?Lennox and York to quote. York (PSE&G) never
showed, Trane dealer promised a quote but never bothered to send it,
ditto for the other guy, so I can't give equivelent prices for their
stuff, despite trying)

It can't be just $5K for the brand label? c'mon, someone must have some
independant info on the different value-for-money, reliability, quality
of these various systems? anyone?

You're dealing with various independent dealers who set their own prices
and make their own estimates. Some of them need work and quote low, some
of them are too busy and quote high, sometimes very high. So there can be
quite a bit of price variance that has *nothing* to do with the quality of
the components or the installation.

A shrewd contractor will never dismiss a request for quote when he is too
busy, he just quotes a price that is high enough to get him interested.
Many people are too lazy, stupid, busy, and/or rich to shop around.

wrote

Hi,

I see from prior postings that people think it makes little difference
what brand of a/c you go for, provided the installer is good.

well - I have just gotten quotes for a 2 zone replacement of air
handlers and condensing units (ie 2 new condensers, 2 new air handlers
+ pipework, limited duct adaptation)

The best price I can get for the Carrier systems is $13,586 after all
rebates. For the directly comperable system from Heil I've been quoted
$8600! ($8000 for the Freon version). OK the Carrier is "15.5 SEER" and
the Heil is 14+ SEER, but that doesn't account for the $5K difference!

It can't be just $5K for the brand label? c'mon, someone must have some
independant info on the different value-for-money, reliability, quality
of these various systems? anyone?

Not questioning your method, but how did you go about contacting the
companies that you did? Did you look in the yellow pages and call a Carrier
dealer, then a Heil dealer, etc? What you need to do is ask friends and
neighbors who they would use and then call them, find out what brand they
carry, and then go from there. Get at least 3 different companies to give
you QUOTES (not estimates). If 2 of them carry the same brand, then it's
easier to compare. You are correct in saying that the installer is more
important than the brand. You can buy the most elite/expensive line out
there and if the installer used poor "methods", it can die a short and
tragic death.

We sell Carrier, American Standard, Rheem, Armstrong, and several other
brands. At one time I would say that some brands are better than others
because of the warranty the mfg offered. Just about all of them are now
offering 5 years parts and 10 years on the compressor. So what's a consumer
to do? Again: Ask your friends and neighbors who they would use and get at
LEAST 3 quotes from 3 different companies.

Can't say anything about the price because different areas demand different
price structures.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi,

I see from prior postings that people think it makes little difference
what brand of a/c you go for, provided the installer is good.

well - I have just gotten quotes for a 2 zone replacement of air
handlers and condensing units (ie 2 new condensers, 2 new air handlers
+ pipework, limited duct adaptation)

The best price I can get for the Carrier systems is $13,586 after all
rebates. For the directly comperable system from Heil I've been quoted
$8600! ($8000 for the Freon version). OK the Carrier is "15.5 SEER" and
the Heil is 14+ SEER, but that doesn't account for the $5K difference!

It can't be just $5K for the brand label? c'mon, someone must have some
independant info on the different value-for-money, reliability, quality
of these various systems? anyone?



(I also got Trane, ?Lennox and York to quote. York (PSE&G) never
showed, Trane dealer promised a quote but never bothered to send it,
ditto for the other guy, so I can't give equivelent prices for their
stuff, despite trying)

This is Turtle.

Now you are learning about Salesmanship.

Carrier is the parent company of Heil and both are being engineered by the same
design group. So Carrier and Heil being the same company, what designs would you
think they would make different. ZERO ! So would you want to pay $5K more for a
different name on the box ?

now forget all this shopping spree but the most inportant thing there is in the
hvac buying business is the Installer must be a good installer or all equipment
it nothing but trash.

TURTLE

"TURTLE" wrote

Carrier is the parent company of Heil and both are being engineered by the
same design group.

In my best Johnny Carson voice

"I did not know that!"


(You sure, turtle?)

My Carrier rep assures me Carrier has nothing to do with Heil, it's
just that Carrier's parent owns both, and many other companies besides.
I just found the Better business report - it has Carrier listed as
"unsatisfactory":

http://search.buffalo.bbb.org/nis/ne...41000057100593

Heil is a brand of International Comfort Products, LLC. They have a
"satisfactory" report from the bbb:

http://data.middletennessee.bbb.org/...html?bid=10623

Then again, Carrier has a far bigger market share, so maybe it is going
to get more complaints just from the volume...

.... still none the wiser.

It seems Turtle is right:
"Carrier Corporation brands include: Carrier, Bryant, Payne, and ICP
brand names Airquest, Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, KeepRite, and
TempStar."

see:http://www.appliancemagazine.com/edi...zone=1&first=1

At the risk of making this a converstion with myself, there's more...

"In the U.S. four compressor manufacturers offer products for use in
residential air
conditioners: Bristol (a division of York), Copeland (a division of
Emerson Electric), Tecumseh, and
Scroll Technologies (a joint venture between Bristol and Carlysle,
which itself is a division of
Carrier). Bristol and Copeland are the dominant firms. Bristol's
product line is limited to
reciprocating compressors, which use pistons to compress the
refrigerant. Reciprocating compressors
have the longest history and have a reputation for reliability.
Copeland offers reciprocating
compressors, but is known more for its line of scroll compressors.
Instead of pistons, scroll
compressors use interlocking helixes to compress the refrigerant in a
continuous action. Tecumseh
and Scroll Technologies are less prominent. Although it offers both
types of compressor, Tecumseh
supplies mainly reciprocating and rotary compressors in smaller air
conditioners and refrigerators.
Scroll Technologies is effectively Bristol's scroll division and is
capable of supplying only scroll
compressors."
(http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings.../chap8_mia.pdf)

The Heil is using the same Copeland compressor.

I just tracked down the "cost" of the carrier units the rep quoted. It
amounts to approx $7500 max
(http://acforsale.com/online/default.php?cPath=30_43_81). That means
they are allowing for $6000 in labor, pipework, and profit. Sounds way
OTT.

"Dr. Hardcrab" wrote in message
news:SiPKe.11553$0d.3324@trnddc02...

"TURTLE" wrote

Carrier is the parent company of Heil and both are being engineered by the
same design group.

In my best Johnny Carson voice

"I did not know that!"


(You sure, turtle?)

This is Turtle.

I could always be wrong about most anything but here is what i've seen lately.
Carrier in my area moved out and just left. I had to now order control boards
and relay boards on Carrier equipment. I talk to the ArcoAire warehouse about
these boards of carrier and this is what he said. I wanted a board for a Carrier
on a gas furnace and he said here let me see the numbers on the board and match
them up on a arcoAire furnace. He plugged in the numbers on the board and it fit
15 different Arcoaire gas furnaces and the number was exactly stated from the
board. i had some other board numbers from Carrier in my pocket book for numbers
and every number that the carrier board was there was the same board that fit
the Arcoaire board. I had about 8 or 10 carrier board numbers and Arcoaire had
all them using them on the equipment. Now any board more than 5+ years old was
different numbers but the same exact board carrier or arcoaire was using.

Then we started going with door switches, safety shut downs,defrost boards and
found Arcoaire had everyone of them that carrier had. The ideal here is the TSH
for a heil gas furnace had a type number on it and the carrier TSH had the same
number on it.

Then the Arcoaire warehouse fellow told me that when he has trouble with a
furnace or equipment to advise him. He calls ICP and Carrier Information Control
Center. If he just gives the part number , sometimes they will ask him what
brand is it , ICP , Bryant, or Carrier.

So when i go to my ArcoAire warehouse to get all my Carrier parts. It just make
me think strange things like they are all engineered the same. Also have you
looked at a Carrier , Bryant, and a Arcoaire condenser lately ?

TURTLE

wrote in message
oups.com...
It seems Turtle is right:
"Carrier Corporation brands include: Carrier, Bryant, Payne, and ICP
brand names Airquest, Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, KeepRite, and
TempStar."

see:http://www.appliancemagazine.com/edi...zone=1&first=1

We used to install Heil. You can still go to houses that have Heil units
installed (20 years ago) and unitl you get right up on it (and read the tag)
you don't know WHAT "brand" it is. Heil made:

Tempstart
Heil
Whirlpool
Sears
Montgomery Wards

Anyone in the business knows which units I'm talking about (those green
"horseshoe" shaped ones.

"Dr. Hardcrab" wrote in message
news:Xh%Ke.6705$0d.348@trnddc03...

wrote in message
oups.com...
It seems Turtle is right:
"Carrier Corporation brands include: Carrier, Bryant, Payne, and ICP
brand names Airquest, Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, KeepRite, and
TempStar."


see:http://www.appliancemagazine.com/edi...&zone=1&first=
1

We used to install Heil. You can still go to houses that have Heil units
installed (20 years ago) and unitl you get right up on it (and read the
tag)
you don't know WHAT "brand" it is. Heil made:

Tempstart
Heil
Whirlpool
Sears
Montgomery Wards

Anyone in the business knows which units I'm talking about (those green
"horseshoe" shaped ones.


Oh yeah, I just changed one of those out. Almost ruptured myself loading
into the truck. I didn't realize how heavy they were.

"HeatMan" wrote in message
...

"Dr. Hardcrab" wrote in message
news:Xh%Ke.6705$0d.348@trnddc03...

wrote in message
oups.com...
It seems Turtle is right:
"Carrier Corporation brands include: Carrier, Bryant, Payne, and ICP
brand names Airquest, Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, KeepRite, and
TempStar."


see:http://www.appliancemagazine.com/edi...&zone=1&first=
1

We used to install Heil. You can still go to houses that have Heil units
installed (20 years ago) and unitl you get right up on it (and read the
tag)
you don't know WHAT "brand" it is. Heil made:

Tempstart
Heil
Whirlpool
Sears
Montgomery Wards

Anyone in the business knows which units I'm talking about (those green
"horseshoe" shaped ones.


Oh yeah, I just changed one of those out. Almost ruptured myself loading
into the truck. I didn't realize how heavy they were.

Awkward as hell too!! They are a lot easier if you leave all of the screws
in it.

How bout those early 80's round (trash can) Carriers that they bolted to the
round cement pad??!!! I carry a sledge hammer just for that reason....

"Dr. Hardcrab" wrote in message
news:YZ3Le.294$Rp5.127@trnddc03...

"HeatMan" wrote in message
...

"Dr. Hardcrab" wrote in message
news:Xh%Ke.6705$0d.348@trnddc03...

wrote in message
oups.com...
It seems Turtle is right:
"Carrier Corporation brands include: Carrier, Bryant, Payne, and ICP
brand names Airquest, Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, KeepRite, and
TempStar."



see:http://www.appliancemagazine.com/edi...&zone=1&first=
1

We used to install Heil. You can still go to houses that have Heil
units
installed (20 years ago) and unitl you get right up on it (and read the
tag)
you don't know WHAT "brand" it is. Heil made:

Tempstart
Heil
Whirlpool
Sears
Montgomery Wards

Anyone in the business knows which units I'm talking about (those green
"horseshoe" shaped ones.


Oh yeah, I just changed one of those out. Almost ruptured myself
loading
into the truck. I didn't realize how heavy they were.

Awkward as hell too!! They are a lot easier if you leave all of the screws
in it.


Uh-huh. Someone there before me replaced the contactor. They didn't put
even one screw back in the cover. I almost fell on my bum when the cover
popped off in my hands.

How bout those early 80's round (trash can) Carriers that they bolted to
the
round cement pad??!!! I carry a sledge hammer just for that reason....

Never had one bolted down. I have a couple of customers that have those
things and they are still running. Inefficient as all get out, but they're
running....

well - I have just gotten quotes for a 2 zone replacement of air
handlers and condensing units (ie 2 new condensers, 2 new air handlers
+ pipework, limited duct adaptation)

The best price I can get for the Carrier systems is $13,586

In 1998, we had 2 Carrier Heat Pumps put in our new house. A 3.5 ton and a
2.5 ton with FK4CN var spd air handlers and full insulated hardduct in a
2800 sf one level home. It cost right around what theyre quoting you now
for your job but yours already has the ductwork.

Thanks, that's a really useful benchmark for me. That works out to
roughly 16K with inflation. My price is after 1700 of rebates - so it's
really 15286. I believe ductwork is expensive, ie I would *guess* it
would account for maybe 1/3 of the job - roughly. That's another
indicator that I'm being overcharged for the Carrier. On the other
hand, I've seen some worrying info on heil:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...e6aed3d3 026e

It sounds like i need to get another couple of dealer's carrier quotes
to see how much I'm being 'overcharged' for the same equipment.