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Powered crimping tool equivalent to COPALUM tool
Thanks to everyone who's responded to my last question about aluminum
wiring. I thought I'd investigate the option of using a hydrolic pressing or crimping tool to add copper pigtails onto the aluminum wires. Apparently that's how aluminum wire connections are made by the utility companies. I know there's a tool available and certified for residental wiring, called COPALUM, unfortunately the company who offers this tool has very strict rules and regulations, etc. regarding who can use it, etc. ... making it quite expensive to actually use, not to mention that no one in Canada is actually certified at the moment to use this tool. However, electrical utilities obvioulsy have tools that they use also for such things. Hence I'm wondering if anyone could help me dig up some information on other powered crimping tools that can be used to attach copper to aluminum wire. Thanks, Harry |
Harry Muscle wrote:
...using a hydrolic pressing or crimping tool ... That would be "hydraulic"... I've notice this pretty consistently and it grates on my eyes... :) For ordinary household wiring don't think you'll find anything that would be practical. I think what you've found is that the perceived potential liability has essentially prevented the introduction of anything for consumer/end user use. Don't foresee this changing. |
Sorry about the spelling. I thought the word looked a little off ...
should have run spell check I guess :) Thanks, Harry |
There are many crimping tools designed for wiring (not necessarily house
wiring but any) that will work with #12 wire no problem. I have also seen copper sleeves (Ferrules?) for use in crimping wire in the electrical section at HD and other hardware stores. Hydrolic is probably overkill if you are doing only one house (maybe if you are thinking about going into business but....) A simple mechanical ratcheting crimping tool will work fine. The cheaper one that come with the connector kits will not be able to give you enough mechanical advantage and the crimp is too narrow. There are many brands and can be found in the electrical tools section of almost any hardware store probably right next to the copper sleeves. "Duane Bozarth" wrote in message ... Harry Muscle wrote: ...using a hydrolic pressing or crimping tool ... That would be "hydraulic"... I've notice this pretty consistently and it grates on my eyes... :) For ordinary household wiring don't think you'll find anything that would be practical. I think what you've found is that the perceived potential liability has essentially prevented the introduction of anything for consumer/end user use. Don't foresee this changing. |
PipeDown wrote:
There are many crimping tools designed for wiring (not necessarily house wiring but any) that will work with #12 wire no problem. I have also seen copper sleeves (Ferrules?) for use in crimping wire in the electrical section at HD and other hardware stores. Hydrolic is probably overkill if you are doing only one house (maybe if you are thinking about going into business but....) A simple mechanical ratcheting crimping tool will work fine. The cheaper one that come with the connector kits will not be able to give you enough mechanical advantage and the crimp is too narrow. There are many brands and can be found in the electrical tools section of almost any hardware store probably right next to the copper sleeves. You could make a perfectly good crimper out of a cheap pair of bolt cutters by drilling or grinding the right sized hole in the blades. The bigger problem is finding crimp sleeves that are appropriate for joining copper and aluminum. Tin plated might be compatible with both metals, I'm not sure. Bob |
zxcvbob wrote:
.... The bigger problem is finding crimp sleeves that are appropriate for joining copper and aluminum. Tin plated might be compatible with both metals, I'm not sure. That's where I'd think the problem lies, too...and if one is looking for NEC-approved or equivalent as I thought OP was, that could be a problem. I guess NicoPress would be one place one could start looking...we use them on electric fence, but that's not the same thing by any stretch as for residential wiring... |
See
http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/know...2098-8,00.html "Harry Muscle" wrote in message oups.com... Thanks to everyone who's responded to my last question about aluminum wiring. I thought I'd investigate the option of using a hydrolic pressing or crimping tool to add copper pigtails onto the aluminum wires. Apparently that's how aluminum wire connections are made by the utility companies. I know there's a tool available and certified for residental wiring, called COPALUM, unfortunately the company who offers this tool has very strict rules and regulations, etc. regarding who can use it, etc. ... making it quite expensive to actually use, not to mention that no one in Canada is actually certified at the moment to use this tool. However, electrical utilities obvioulsy have tools that they use also for such things. Hence I'm wondering if anyone could help me dig up some information on other powered crimping tools that can be used to attach copper to aluminum wire. Thanks, Harry |
Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical, alt.building.construction,
alt.home.repair, misc.consumers.house From: "barbarow" - Find messages by this author Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:09:50 GMT Local: Wed, Aug 10 2005 3:09 pm Subject: Powered crimping tool equivalent to COPALUM tool See http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/know...cle/0,16417,56... ***** Thanks. I know about those, however, even though they are UL approved the CPSC has apparently shown in tests that they do in fact fail under normal conditions ... hence they do not approve of them. Therefore I was hoping to find a solution that both testing agencies approve of ... the only one I'm aware of is the COPALUM tool. They don't seem to have as negative a view of CO/ALR approved devices (even though they do say that they also have failed in tests). But since not everything is available as CO/ALR compatible you're back to having to use pigtails, at least for some things. Harry |
Harry Muscle wrote:
Newsgroups: alt.engineering.electrical, alt.building.construction, alt.home.repair, misc.consumers.house From: "barbarow" - Find messages by this author Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:09:50 GMT Local: Wed, Aug 10 2005 3:09 pm Subject: Powered crimping tool equivalent to COPALUM tool See http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/know...cle/0,16417,56... ***** Thanks. I know about those, however, even though they are UL approved the CPSC has apparently shown in tests that they do in fact fail under normal conditions ... hence they do not approve of them. Therefore I was hoping to find a solution that both testing agencies approve of ... the only one I'm aware of is the COPALUM tool. They don't seem to have as negative a view of CO/ALR approved devices (even though they do say that they also have failed in tests). But since not everything is available as CO/ALR compatible you're back to having to use pigtails, at least for some things. Harry As I say, I'd start w/ Nicopress. www.nicopress.com |
According to PipeDown :
There are many crimping tools designed for wiring (not necessarily house wiring but any) that will work with #12 wire no problem. I have also seen copper sleeves (Ferrules?) for use in crimping wire in the electrical section at HD and other hardware stores. There are indeed _many_ crimping tools and sleeves. But few of them are UL/CSA/NEC/CEC approved for work on AC power wiring. And secondly, _none_ of them (except the COPALUM device _with_ the hydraulic crimper) are approved for connecting aluminum wire to copper. So, telling people to just wander into the automotive section, and use whatever they find there on their AC power wiring (whether Aluminum or not) is a very bad idea. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
"Harry Muscle" wrote in message oups.com... Thanks to everyone who's responded to my last question about aluminum wiring. I thought I'd investigate the option of using a hydrolic pressing or crimping tool to add copper pigtails onto the aluminum wires. Apparently that's how aluminum wire connections are made by the utility companies. I know there's a tool available and certified for residental wiring, called COPALUM, unfortunately the company who offers this tool has very strict rules and regulations, etc. regarding who can use it, etc. ... making it quite expensive to actually use, not to mention that no one in Canada is actually certified at the moment to use this tool. However, electrical utilities obvioulsy have tools that they use also for such things. Hence I'm wondering if anyone could help me dig up some information on other powered crimping tools that can be used to attach copper to aluminum wire. Thanks, Harry ratching crimpers are what I would and do use. The biggest issue is to find a crimp that is AL/CU rated. After much googling I found this http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/prhtml03/03120.html "COPALUM connectors are available from Tyco Electronics under the AMP brand. Consumers can check to see if the COPALUM connector system is available in their area by calling the company at (800) 522-6752. To order a list of authorized electricians in their area, consumers can write to: Tyco Electronics Corp., Attn: Aluminum Wire Repair Program, P.O. Box 3608, Harrisburg, PA 17105-3608. If no authorized electrician is currently located nearby, consumers can have an electrician interested in repairing their home contact the nearest supplier of AMP- brand COPALUM connectors for training and other repair information." Seems no one is going to sell parts,,,, tools yes. Have fun anything that is this "closed" I have serious suspicions about. |
Harry Muscle wrote:
If you use crimp/compression connections the crimper has to be one that the manufacurer says can be used. My experience is that solid wire does not work in a crimp (#14-#10 range) - partly because too much torque can be applied from the wire the crimp connection. Looking at a panduit catalog I didn't see any limitation on solid wire. Make sure crimp connectors are listed for solid wire if that is what you have (small gauge stranded aluminum wire probably does not exist). My suggestion would be to use copper/aluminum rated wire nuts; crimp in small wire sounds like a pain. In general I look for wire nuts with a 'live spring' - the spring deforms over the wires making a tighter connection. In the trivia department, in compression connections on larger wire, the sleeve is compressed so tight there is a cold weld between the sleeve and wire. Bud-- From: "barbarow" - Find messages by this author See http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/know...cle/0,16417,56... (link doesn't work) ***** Thanks. I know about those, however, even though they are UL approved the CPSC has apparently shown in tests that they do in fact fail under normal conditions ... hence they do not approve of them. Therefore I was hoping to find a solution that both testing agencies approve of ... the only one I'm aware of is the COPALUM tool. They don't seem to have as negative a view of CO/ALR approved devices (even though they do say that they also have failed in tests). But since not everything is available as CO/ALR compatible you're back to having to use pigtails, at least for some things. Harry |
Apparently the COPALUM tool I mentioned in the original post does in
fact create a cold weld to the aluminum and copper. Which means the equivalent tool I'm trying to find would also have to be able to create enough pressure to do the same ... am I correct in assuming that that rules out hand operated crimping tools and only leaves powered ones? Thanks, Harry P.S. According to some of the information available on the COPALUM tool, it creates 10,000 pounds of pressure. |
COPALUM is the tool I mentioned in my original post. Unfortunately,
it's virtually impossible for one to get their hands on it ... first off you have to be a licensed electrician, then you need to get certified (apparently only one guy in all of Canada is certified, but he no longer works with this tools and wants nothing to do with it due to the costs associated), then you can finally get the tool, but they only rent it, never sell it ... way to much hassle and cost to go thru. Thanks, Harry |
"Harry Muscle" wrote in message ups.com... Apparently the COPALUM tool I mentioned in the original post does in fact create a cold weld to the aluminum and copper. Which means the equivalent tool I'm trying to find would also have to be able to create enough pressure to do the same ... am I correct in assuming that that rules out hand operated crimping tools and only leaves powered ones? Thanks, Harry P.S. According to some of the information available on the COPALUM tool, it creates 10,000 pounds of pressure. At least it would need to be as big as a pair of bolt cutters if it did exist. Any luck finding approved wire nuts? |
"Harry Muscle" wrote in message ups.com... Apparently the COPALUM tool I mentioned in the original post does in fact create a cold weld to the aluminum and copper. Which means the equivalent tool I'm trying to find would also have to be able to create enough pressure to do the same ... am I correct in assuming that that rules out hand operated crimping tools and only leaves powered ones? Small lugs and connector pin crimping tools, such as those by AMP and Amphenol for signal cables (e.g. 18 AWG and smaller) also create 'coldweld' crimps, using just hand tools. But for anything larger such as 12AWG and larger, I think you'd pretty much have to use something with a lot of mechanical advantage such as hydraulic. daestrom |
the bottom line is that for the type of aluminum wire that is a
problem, there is no real good solution. the tool is indeed never sold (only rented) and only rented to electricians and then only after you take a class and get certified to use the tool (and probably sign a bazillion waivers). there are some wire nuts available that have some antioxidant compound in them but purportedly they are not a good solution either. since you mention canada, i gather you are there and there are no certfiied users there anymore. that should tell you a lot. the aluminum wires now in use are a different alloy than the small gauge wiring that caused some fires a few years back, so the tool used for that particular wiring is probably not appropriate for what you want to use it for. utilities do not use small gauge wire in any case. |
I didn't see your previous post, but if you are joining two dissimilar
metals, be sure to use a joint compound to prevent moisture from touching the connection. If you were to join copper to aluminum with no means of preventing moisture from bridging the joint, corrosion loss will occur over time. This is the accelerated corrosion (loss) of the least noble metal (anode) while protecting the more noble (cathode) metal. Copper, in this example, is the more noble metal. The aluminum will pit to the copper leaving less surface area for contact. The connection could be become loose, noisy, and even allow arcing. These corrosion problems can be prevented by using a joint compound, covering and prevent the bridging of moisture between the metals. The most popular compounds use either zinc oxide or copper particles embedded in silicone grease. As the joint pressure is increased, the embedded particles dig into the metals and form a virgin low resistance junction void of air and its moisture. My electricians use nolox, but I'm sure there are other brands out there that work just as well. just my .02 S. "Harry Muscle" wrote in message oups.com... Thanks to everyone who's responded to my last question about aluminum wiring. I thought I'd investigate the option of using a hydrolic pressing or crimping tool to add copper pigtails onto the aluminum wires. Apparently that's how aluminum wire connections are made by the utility companies. I know there's a tool available and certified for residental wiring, called COPALUM, unfortunately the company who offers this tool has very strict rules and regulations, etc. regarding who can use it, etc. ... making it quite expensive to actually use, not to mention that no one in Canada is actually certified at the moment to use this tool. However, electrical utilities obvioulsy have tools that they use also for such things. Hence I'm wondering if anyone could help me dig up some information on other powered crimping tools that can be used to attach copper to aluminum wire. Thanks, Harry |
Powered crimping tool equivalent to COPALUM tool
replying to SQLit, fish on wrote:
Anytime there is s solution to the problem everyone wants to find a way to circumvent the fix.Aluminum wiring is a problem,cheap homeowners and handymen and Mr.Fix it ate bigger problems when it comes to aluminum wiring.There's a reason why you need to be a licensed electrician and certified in this process.Aluminum wiring because of it's characteristics needs to be handled gingerly with proper syrippers so as not to nick wire which is an altogether different problem than joining 2 dissimilar materials.Anyway would you use a janitor to to perform surgery or terminate high voltage cables .don't think so.I am an electrician certified with Tyco Amp for copalum remediation.I have seen so many botched jobs from homeowners and uneducated electricians when it comes to aluminum remediation using purple twisters and alumicon connectors because of nicked wiresand trying to jam more wires than the allowed by these 2 methods.Wires are burnt and then cut shorter because of previous fix attempt. Get it done right once and hire a qualified electrician.What price do you put on safety? -- posted from http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...ool-21140-.htm |
Powered crimping tool equivalent to COPALUM tool
On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 16:44:01 +0000, fish on
wrote: replying to SQLit, fish on wrote: Anytime there is s solution to the problem everyone wants to find a way to circumvent the fix.Aluminum wiring is a problem,cheap homeowners and handymen and Mr.Fix it ate bigger problems when it comes to aluminum wiring.There's a reason why you need to be a licensed electrician and certified in this process.Aluminum wiring because of it's characteristics needs to be handled gingerly with proper syrippers so as not to nick wire which is an altogether different problem than joining 2 dissimilar materials.Anyway would you use a janitor to to perform surgery or terminate high voltage cables .don't think so.I am an electrician certified with Tyco Amp for copalum remediation.I have seen so many botched jobs from homeowners and uneducated electricians when it comes to aluminum remediation using purple twisters and alumicon connectors because of nicked wiresand trying to jam more wires than the allowed by these 2 methods.Wires are burnt and then cut shorter because of previous fix attempt. Get it done right once and hire a qualified electrician.What price do you put on safety? Nobody has actually found a problem using CoALr devices when properly installed but hype has taken over the whole conversation. Most of the aluminum problems could actually be traced to bad workmanship and the houses that were going to burn down, already have. They are 40-50 years old now. Just about the time when the industry came up with the fixes for aluminum wire, (better alloys and better devices) they stopped using it. I also reject most of the dissimilar arguments too. It is very hard to find a lug that isn't aluminum and we put copper wire in them every day. (No Goo) The issue was coefficient of expansion in a screw binding terminal and they fixed it with a different screw in CoALr device. |
Powered crimping tool equivalent to COPALUM tool
|
Powered crimping tool equivalent to COPALUM tool
On Sun, 01 May 2016 01:15:35 -0400, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:35:47 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 16:44:01 +0000, fish on om wrote: replying to SQLit, fish on wrote: Anytime there is s solution to the problem everyone wants to find a way to circumvent the fix.Aluminum wiring is a problem,cheap homeowners and handymen and Mr.Fix it ate bigger problems when it comes to aluminum wiring.There's a reason why you need to be a licensed electrician and certified in this process.Aluminum wiring because of it's characteristics needs to be handled gingerly with proper syrippers so as not to nick wire which is an altogether different problem than joining 2 dissimilar materials.Anyway would you use a janitor to to perform surgery or terminate high voltage cables .don't think so.I am an electrician certified with Tyco Amp for copalum remediation.I have seen so many botched jobs from homeowners and uneducated electricians when it comes to aluminum remediation using purple twisters and alumicon connectors because of nicked wiresand trying to jam more wires than the allowed by these 2 methods.Wires are burnt and then cut shorter because of previous fix attempt. Get it done right once and hire a qualified electrician.What price do you put on safety? Nobody has actually found a problem using CoALr devices when properly installed but hype has taken over the whole conversation. Most of the aluminum problems could actually be traced to bad workmanship and the houses that were going to burn down, already have. They are 40-50 years old now. Just about the time when the industry came up with the fixes for aluminum wire, (better alloys and better devices) they stopped using it. I also reject most of the dissimilar arguments too. It is very hard to find a lug that isn't aluminum and we put copper wire in them every day. (No Goo) The issue was coefficient of expansion in a screw binding terminal and they fixed it with a different screw in CoALr device. My house is now 43 years old. It was one of the last batch wired with aluminum in Kitchener - Waterloo - using the new improved alloy with standard (not COALR or AL-CU rated) I was changing insurance companies which required an inspection - and some insurance companies will not accept (grandfather) non co-alr devices without copper pigtails, so I changed everything to CO-ALR - then found I needed to install GFCI devices. (and I was replacing the fuse panel with breakers as well) I was able to use GFCI breakers in some circuits, but needed to use GFCI outlets for 4 outlets - and they don't make COALR GFCI outlets so I needed to pigtail them. I used stranded copper and MARR 65 connectors withnoalox paste. There was not a single bad connection in the entire house and my "upgrade" passed 2 inspections. There is actually a calibrated torque scewsriver that is "technically" required to torque all the screws on COALR devices. I assume a MARR 65 is an Ideal 65 (purple wirenut) U/L says they are fine. Some bureaucrat at CPSC wrote a bad report on them and the networks picked it up. I have a regular torque screwdriver with a phillips. I did the same deal on my 1971 house in Md, 40 years ago when the panic started. That was before the Ideal 65 tho. I put goo in 3m's with the live spring. |
Powered crimping tool equivalent to COPALUM tool
On Sun, 01 May 2016 01:27:38 -0400, wrote:
On Sun, 01 May 2016 01:15:35 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:35:47 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 16:44:01 +0000, fish on caedfaa9ed1216d60ef78a6f660f5f85_9605@example. com wrote: replying to SQLit, fish on wrote: Anytime there is s solution to the problem everyone wants to find a way to circumvent the fix.Aluminum wiring is a problem,cheap homeowners and handymen and Mr.Fix it ate bigger problems when it comes to aluminum wiring.There's a reason why you need to be a licensed electrician and certified in this process.Aluminum wiring because of it's characteristics needs to be handled gingerly with proper syrippers so as not to nick wire which is an altogether different problem than joining 2 dissimilar materials.Anyway would you use a janitor to to perform surgery or terminate high voltage cables .don't think so.I am an electrician certified with Tyco Amp for copalum remediation.I have seen so many botched jobs from homeowners and uneducated electricians when it comes to aluminum remediation using purple twisters and alumicon connectors because of nicked wiresand trying to jam more wires than the allowed by these 2 methods.Wires are burnt and then cut shorter because of previous fix attempt. Get it done right once and hire a qualified electrician.What price do you put on safety? Nobody has actually found a problem using CoALr devices when properly installed but hype has taken over the whole conversation. Most of the aluminum problems could actually be traced to bad workmanship and the houses that were going to burn down, already have. They are 40-50 years old now. Just about the time when the industry came up with the fixes for aluminum wire, (better alloys and better devices) they stopped using it. I also reject most of the dissimilar arguments too. It is very hard to find a lug that isn't aluminum and we put copper wire in them every day. (No Goo) The issue was coefficient of expansion in a screw binding terminal and they fixed it with a different screw in CoALr device. My house is now 43 years old. It was one of the last batch wired with aluminum in Kitchener - Waterloo - using the new improved alloy with standard (not COALR or AL-CU rated) I was changing insurance companies which required an inspection - and some insurance companies will not accept (grandfather) non co-alr devices without copper pigtails, so I changed everything to CO-ALR - then found I needed to install GFCI devices. (and I was replacing the fuse panel with breakers as well) I was able to use GFCI breakers in some circuits, but needed to use GFCI outlets for 4 outlets - and they don't make COALR GFCI outlets so I needed to pigtail them. I used stranded copper and MARR 65 connectors withnoalox paste. There was not a single bad connection in the entire house and my "upgrade" passed 2 inspections. There is actually a calibrated torque scewsriver that is "technically" required to torque all the screws on COALR devices. I assume a MARR 65 is an Ideal 65 (purple wirenut) Your assumption would be DEAD WRONG. The Thermoplastic Ideal is NOT approved for use on copper/aluminum connections in Canada any more because THEY are a fire hazard The Marr 85 is a brown phenolic wirenut that won't melt or burn if a connection gets hot. The official desognation is a MARR ACS #65 connector. There is also the Marr ACS #63 connector (slightly smaller) The 65 is good for a minimum of 2 #14 wires and a maximum of 1 #12 + 2 #10 conductors. and good for copper to copper, copper to aluminum, and aluminum to aluminum. The spring is copper finished. They are made by Thomas & Betts / ABB.. They take less space than the "wingy" ideals as well. U/L says they are fine. Some bureaucrat at CPSC wrote a bad report on them and the networks picked it up. I have a regular torque screwdriver with a phillips. I did the same deal on my 1971 house in Md, 40 years ago when the panic started. That was before the Ideal 65 tho. I put goo in 3m's with the live spring. |
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