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-   -   Transfer switch or cutoff switch? (https://www.diybanter.com/home-repair/115279-transfer-switch-cutoff-switch.html)

rh455 July 26th 05 05:34 AM

Transfer switch or cutoff switch?
 

I recently bought a Coleman Powermate Genny. It's 7000 watts, 8750
surge. While I'd love to backfeed my main panel for convience reasons,
I do realize it's illegal and unsafe. I'm considering a double pole 200
amp cutoff switch before the meter. (The main line is buried, comes up
to the meter and exits behind the meter to the main panel inside the
house). The main panel is a Cutler-Hammer 200 amp box. I don't see
where an interlock switch(at the main breaker) is available for my box.
Would a double pole cutoff switch make it safe to backfeed? I have a
120/240 30amp plug on the genny and already have an existing 50amp
socket on the wall for my compressor. Can I backfeed the 30amp line
thru the 50amp socket?
If backfeeding can't be accomplished, I'd consider a manual transfer
switch if I could find the right switch for my application. Most are up
to 7500 watts but I don't know if that will be enough with the surge
capability of my genny.


--
rh455
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SQLit July 26th 05 06:25 AM


"rh455" wrote in message
...

I recently bought a Coleman Powermate Genny. It's 7000 watts, 8750
surge. While I'd love to backfeed my main panel for convience reasons,
I do realize it's illegal and unsafe. I'm considering a double pole 200
amp cutoff switch before the meter. (The main line is buried, comes up
to the meter and exits behind the meter to the main panel inside the
house). The main panel is a Cutler-Hammer 200 amp box. I don't see
where an interlock switch(at the main breaker) is available for my box.
Would a double pole cutoff switch make it safe to backfeed? I have a
120/240 30amp plug on the genny and already have an existing 50amp
socket on the wall for my compressor. Can I backfeed the 30amp line
thru the 50amp socket?
If backfeeding can't be accomplished, I'd consider a manual transfer
switch if I could find the right switch for my application. Most are up
to 7500 watts but I don't know if that will be enough with the surge
capability of my genny.


CH and others offer panels that will do the job for you. Home Depot used to
sell them.
I am unaware of a CH made switch to tie the main and your genny feed
breaker together. Not that they do not make one now I just have never seen
one.

I know what double pole switch is, and that will not solve the problem for
you.
A double pole double throw switch MIGHT. Depending on the installation. I
suggest you consider a 3 pole and not tie the neutrals from the utility and
the genny together.

Back feeding in any form is not a good idea. I doubt strongly that your 50
amp outlet is set up for 4 wires. IF it is 4 wire then...................

All you need is a 60 amp switch. 8750 divided by 240 is 36+ amps.

Best bet is call a pro in your area and have them inspect the situation and
give you pointers on what exactly needs to be done per your local codes and
authorities.




Around July 26th 05 11:59 AM

Check this link out
http://www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm

"rh455" wrote in message
...

I recently bought a Coleman Powermate Genny. It's 7000 watts, 8750
surge. While I'd love to backfeed my main panel for convience reasons,
I do realize it's illegal and unsafe. I'm considering a double pole 200
amp cutoff switch before the meter. (The main line is buried, comes up
to the meter and exits behind the meter to the main panel inside the
house). The main panel is a Cutler-Hammer 200 amp box. I don't see
where an interlock switch(at the main breaker) is available for my box.
Would a double pole cutoff switch make it safe to backfeed? I have a
120/240 30amp plug on the genny and already have an existing 50amp
socket on the wall for my compressor. Can I backfeed the 30amp line
thru the 50amp socket?
If backfeeding can't be accomplished, I'd consider a manual transfer
switch if I could find the right switch for my application. Most are up
to 7500 watts but I don't know if that will be enough with the surge
capability of my genny.


--
rh455
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toller July 26th 05 03:34 PM

Your double pole switch will not be adequate, though it will work. The
requirement is for a switch that will prevent both line and generator to be
connected at the same time. The DPST switch will allow you to do that, but
it will also allow you to forget to do it.
Someone suggested a DPDT switch. That would work if there is an
intermediate position in which neither is connected, or else you have the
same problem. And, unless it is UL listed for that application it still
will not meet code.

You might want to confirm this by emailing the manufacturer, but I don't see
a problem with your generator on a 7500w transfer switch. They have circuit
breakers in them, like what is in your breaker box. Your breakers don't
trip everytime you turn a motor on, does it? So I don't see why the
transfer switch should trip in a comparable situation. But it is easy
enough to check with the manufacturer.

The generlink someone recommended looks like a pretty neat solution; except
installation might be expensive. Just don't forget that you still have only
7000w, even though every circuit in the house is hooked to it!




HorneTD July 26th 05 03:38 PM

rh455 wrote:

I recently bought a Coleman Powermate Genny. It's 7000 watts, 8750
surge. While I'd love to backfeed my main panel for convience reasons,
I do realize it's illegal and unsafe. I'm considering a double pole 200
amp cutoff switch before the meter. (The main line is buried, comes up
to the meter and exits behind the meter to the main panel inside the
house). The main panel is a Cutler-Hammer 200 amp box. I don't see
where an interlock switch(at the main breaker) is available for my box.
Would a double pole cutoff switch make it safe to backfeed? I have a
120/240 30amp plug on the genny and already have an existing 50amp
socket on the wall for my compressor. Can I backfeed the 30amp line
thru the 50amp socket?
If backfeeding can't be accomplished, I'd consider a manual transfer
switch if I could find the right switch for my application. Most are up
to 7500 watts but I don't know if that will be enough with the surge
capability of my genny.



To comply with the US National Electric Code the connection arrangement
for your generator must be immune from human error. That means it must
be impossible to connect the generator to the public power lines even by
accident. Since it is physically possible to connect the generator to
the house with that double pole switch closed it is unlawful to connect
it that way. Additionally double male plugs are known as suicide cords
for a reason. One mistake means that you or a loved one could die. Do
it right or don't do it. The least expensive way to connect a generator
to the entire house would be to install a new SquareD feed through panel
ahead of your existing panel and install the SquareD interlock kit in
it. The cost of the equipment will be Two Hundred Fifty dollars ($250).
You would have to rearrange your existing panel to separate the
neutrals and Equipment Grounding Conductors (EGCs) onto separate buss
bars and isolate the neutral buss from ground. That new panel can be
tied in anywhere between the meter and the existing panel but if you use
an exterior panel you gain a place to supply outdoor equipment, branch
circuits, and feeders. The equipment could include well pumps, air
conditioners, pool equipment, jacuzzis, or fish ponds. The branch
circuits and feeders would be those serving separate buildings or the
loads I just listed. A two hundred ampere transfer switch, on the other
hand, would not give you any of those advantages and would cost $340 for
the indoor version of just the switch itself.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

rh455 July 26th 05 03:47 PM


That's cool. I never knew anything like that existed. I'll call my power
co. to see if it's available here. I'll probably call Generlink to get
more info about the unit. Seems almost too simple. I'm wondering what
the inside of the unit looks like and how it assures not backfeeding
the utility pole.


--
rh455
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Duane Bozarth July 26th 05 04:46 PM

rh455 wrote:

That's cool. I never knew anything like that existed. I'll call my power
co. to see if it's available here. I'll probably call Generlink to get
more info about the unit. Seems almost too simple. I'm wondering what
the inside of the unit looks like and how it assures not backfeeding
the utility pole.


Just sounds like a small semi-auto transfer switch w/ a relay sensing
the generator output to open the line-feed breaker. The site is almost
useless for any real content, but it does say it it is a disconnect
when you close your internal breaker to supply the feed from the genset.

toller July 26th 05 05:30 PM


Additionally double male plugs are known as suicide cords
for a reason. One mistake means that you or a loved one could die.


You can hurt yourself on anything, and suicide cords are easier than many;
but are they really that dangerous?

If you opened your main breaker first, wouldn't it be perfectly safe to plug
into the backfeed outlet first and then into the generator? (yes, I know
that if you forget to open the main breaker it is potentially live...)

And if you foolishly plugged into the generator first it still wouldn't be
all that dangerous. Touching the hot alone would do nothing since the
generator is not grounded (and hopefully the genny has a GFCI anyhow). To
be hurt it would be necessary to touch both hot and neutral. While that
would hurt, unless it was on the chest (a difficult thing to achieve) it
wouldn't be particularly dangerous.

I know 10 people will jump on this and tell me that everyone know they are
really dangerous and I am fool to be questioning it; but HOW are they really
dangerous?



HorneTD July 26th 05 07:20 PM

toller wrote:
Additionally double male plugs are known as suicide cords
for a reason. One mistake means that you or a loved one could die.



You can hurt yourself on anything, and suicide cords are easier than many;
but are they really that dangerous?

If you opened your main breaker first, wouldn't it be perfectly safe to plug
into the backfeed outlet first and then into the generator? (yes, I know
that if you forget to open the main breaker it is potentially live...)

And if you foolishly plugged into the generator first it still wouldn't be
all that dangerous. Touching the hot alone would do nothing since the
generator is not grounded (and hopefully the genny has a GFCI anyhow). To
be hurt it would be necessary to touch both hot and neutral. While that
would hurt, unless it was on the chest (a difficult thing to achieve) it
wouldn't be particularly dangerous.

I know 10 people will jump on this and tell me that everyone know they are
really dangerous and I am fool to be questioning it; but HOW are they really
dangerous?



You are assuming that you are the only one that will try to use it and
that you will never be drunk, over tired, stressed out, or otherwise
impaired when you need it. Can you guarantee that it will never be
hooked up by some helpful neighbor or no it all teenager while you are
at work or out of town?

I have worked in fire and rescue since 1981. In those thirty years I
have attended about five serious electrical injuries. Of the two
electrocutions I can recall one was a cheater cord to bypass the safety
on an appliance during trouble shooting and one was a suicide cord that
was used to re energize wiring rendered dead by an open in the wiring.
As you might have guessed the decedent was a child of five years of age.

The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers is committed to
seeking manslaughter charges against anyone who causes the death of an
outside wireman by back feeding. Feeling Lucky?
--
Tom Horne, Inside Wireman, IBEW#D841733
--
Tom Horne


Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

Doug Miller July 26th 05 09:25 PM

In article , "toller" wrote:

Additionally double male plugs are known as suicide cords
for a reason. One mistake means that you or a loved one could die.


You can hurt yourself on anything, and suicide cords are easier than many;
but are they really that dangerous?

If you opened your main breaker first, wouldn't it be perfectly safe to plug
into the backfeed outlet first and then into the generator? (yes, I know
that if you forget to open the main breaker it is potentially live...)

And if you foolishly plugged into the generator first it still wouldn't be
all that dangerous. Touching the hot alone would do nothing since the
generator is not grounded


Dumbass! Touching the hot alone would give you a shock, potentially a fatal
one, because the generator *is* grounded -- what do you think it's sitting on,
anyway?

(and hopefully the genny has a GFCI anyhow). To
be hurt it would be necessary to touch both hot and neutral. While that
would hurt, unless it was on the chest (a difficult thing to achieve) it
wouldn't be particularly dangerous.


Wrong AGAIN. Will you PLEASE stop giving electrical advice? You're DANGEROUS.

I know 10 people will jump on this and tell me that everyone know they are
really dangerous and I am fool to be questioning it; but HOW are they really
dangerous?


Because you can get a fatal shock if you touch either of the hot prongs.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

rh455 July 27th 05 01:29 AM


Maybe I misunderstood the directions I was given. I was told to turn off
ALL breakers, then the main. Connect the cable to the generator, then
the wall socket. Crank the generator and let it warm up then turn on
only the breakers needed but keeping in mind not to overload the
capacity of the generator. I didn't see the risk of shock while the
main is off and the generator is off. I don't profess to be an
electrician by a long shot. I was thinking that a double or triple pole
master cutoff switch before the meter would make it impossible to
backfeed the utility pole. Is this wrong? I was told that the main
breaker may not have sufficient gap to ensure the electricity won't
"jump" the gap in the main breaker, but a safety cutoff switch has
several inches of clearance between the two.

Tom, I like the idea you have about the Square D box, but it does
seem like a lot of work. I see Square D sells a 200 amp breaker box
with the interlock switch already in it. Would this replace the box I
have now? I almost bought one recently, but didn't know enough about
it. My neighbor has a big master cutoff switch box outside next to the
meter. It's to cutoff power before it gets into the house to the main
breaker. That's where I got the idea. I really don't want a transfer
switch/box but I'm still weighing the pros/cons. I just think it's so
much easier and so much more flexiblity.


--
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John Grabowski July 27th 05 02:07 AM

Check out these interlock kits for Cutler-Hammer Panels:
http://www.interlockkit.com/cuthamr0.html



"rh455" wrote in message
...

I recently bought a Coleman Powermate Genny. It's 7000 watts, 8750
surge. While I'd love to backfeed my main panel for convience reasons,
I do realize it's illegal and unsafe. I'm considering a double pole 200
amp cutoff switch before the meter. (The main line is buried, comes up
to the meter and exits behind the meter to the main panel inside the
house). The main panel is a Cutler-Hammer 200 amp box. I don't see
where an interlock switch(at the main breaker) is available for my box.
Would a double pole cutoff switch make it safe to backfeed? I have a
120/240 30amp plug on the genny and already have an existing 50amp
socket on the wall for my compressor. Can I backfeed the 30amp line
thru the 50amp socket?
If backfeeding can't be accomplished, I'd consider a manual transfer
switch if I could find the right switch for my application. Most are up
to 7500 watts but I don't know if that will be enough with the surge
capability of my genny.


--
rh455
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rh455 July 27th 05 02:27 AM


Excellent info John. I looked high and low and couldn't find an
interlock kit on CH's website. It looks like just a lockout plate and
decals in the kit. Isn't there two breakers in an interlock kit? One
for the utility power and one for the genny? If I do the interlock kit,
will I need another 30amp 240 breaker and wire it to another plug box to
connect the generator to?


--
rh455
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Larry July 27th 05 06:20 AM


"rh455" wrote in message
...

Maybe I misunderstood the directions I was given. I was told to turn off
ALL breakers, then the main. Connect the cable to the generator, then
the wall socket. Crank the generator and let it warm up then turn on
only the breakers needed but keeping in mind not to overload the
capacity of the generator. I didn't see the risk of shock while the
main is off and the generator is off. I don't profess to be an
electrician by a long shot. I was thinking that a double or triple pole
master cutoff switch before the meter would make it impossible to
backfeed the utility pole. Is this wrong? I was told that the main
breaker may not have sufficient gap to ensure the electricity won't
"jump" the gap in the main breaker, but a safety cutoff switch has
several inches of clearance between the two.

I did it that way for 3 power outages, and it worked fine. I actually made
up a checklist and really checked it as done.
Assuming you follow the checklist, the main danger is that the main breaker
could be defective and not really open. Sure, you would probably just stall
the generator as it tries to power your neighborhood, but linemen have been
electrocuted this way, so it is a serious possibility.

And, as Tom points out in his reply to a post just above, you could be doing
it when you are tired or drunk and get it wrong, or somebody else could do
it and screw up. Besides, it is illegal, and supposedly the utility will
check houses with lights on; though I expect that is an urban legend.

I bit the bullet and installed a transfer switch a year ago. I haven't had
an opportunity to really use it (knock on wood...), but I feel better about
it as it is pretty foolproof.



rh455 July 27th 05 03:39 PM


If I install a manual transfer switch, should I get a 50 amp switch to
be safe since most 50amp switches are rated to 12500 watts? Is it
possible to connect a 30 amp plug (on generator) to a 50 amp switch?
Maybe if it's hardwired to the switch?


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C & M July 27th 05 04:18 PM

Knowing nothing I'll add my two pence from that standpoint. I consulted
with a licensed and well experienced electrician. He installed a transfer
switch wich was $500 and his labor, another $400 as I recall and it works on
the alloted circuits as proven by a two day outage last year. It seems to
me that when you choose to energize the entire house on a small generator
you could overload it accidentally. And, as I said, since I don't know
anything about electricity I assume that this could cause a catastrophic
accident. No ones life is worth a savings of any amount of money.

"rh455" wrote in message
...

I recently bought a Coleman Powermate Genny. It's 7000 watts, 8750
surge. While I'd love to backfeed my main panel for convience reasons,
I do realize it's illegal and unsafe. I'm considering a double pole 200
amp cutoff switch before the meter. (The main line is buried, comes up
to the meter and exits behind the meter to the main panel inside the
house). The main panel is a Cutler-Hammer 200 amp box. I don't see
where an interlock switch(at the main breaker) is available for my box.
Would a double pole cutoff switch make it safe to backfeed? I have a
120/240 30amp plug on the genny and already have an existing 50amp
socket on the wall for my compressor. Can I backfeed the 30amp line
thru the 50amp socket?
If backfeeding can't be accomplished, I'd consider a manual transfer
switch if I could find the right switch for my application. Most are up
to 7500 watts but I don't know if that will be enough with the surge
capability of my genny.


--
rh455
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toller July 27th 05 06:47 PM


"C & M" wrote in message
...
Knowing nothing I'll add my two pence from that standpoint. I consulted
with a licensed and well experienced electrician. He installed a transfer
switch wich was $500 and his labor, another $400 as I recall and it works
on
the alloted circuits as proven by a two day outage last year.


There are all kind of switches and difficulties of installation, so the
prices you give might be right for some.
But for normal installation of a 7500w switch, it should be about half of
that. (having just done one...)



rh455 July 27th 05 10:23 PM


I wouldn't be energizing the entire house, only select circuits to get
by. I'm debating the options of transfer switch or a master cutoff
switch which would cut power off before the meter. I'd know for certain
that the utility power is off before I could backfeed. I'm not committed
to either option at the moment, I'm researching before I decide. My
power comes out of the ground up to about 5' to the meter. The power
exits the meter from behind(into the wall) and into a perpendicular
interior wall about 5' to the breaker box. The breaker box is confined
in a narrow spot.(Not much room for a transfer switch). My neighbor's
house has a meter with a master cutoff box next to it with a lever on
it. The power exits the cutoff switch from behind to his breaker box.
To me, that's a positive way to cutoff power from the pole. I have
nothing between the meter and the breaker box but the main breaker. I'm
not opposed to a transfer switch, it's just that it would be difficult
in my situation.

C & M Wrote:
Knowing nothing I'll add my two pence from that standpoint. I
consulted
with a licensed and well experienced electrician. He installed a
transfer
switch wich was $500 and his labor, another $400 as I recall and it
works on
the alloted circuits as proven by a two day outage last year. It seems
to
me that when you choose to energize the entire house on a small
generator
you could overload it accidentally. And, as I said, since I don't
know
anything about electricity I assume that this could cause a
catastrophic
accident. No ones life is worth a savings of any amount of money.

"

--
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[/color]


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Pop July 27th 05 11:22 PM

I can't take this anymore; gotta speak up.

A Transfer Switch, properly installed, automatically
disconnects the wired ckts from the mains, meter,
incoming power, whatever you want to call it, all in
ONE motion, and gives thos ckts to the generator ONLY.

A cutoff switch, though functional enough, is ANOTHER
added action in order to isolate the generator from the
power coming in. First you have to throw the cutoff
switch, then hook up your generator - at LEAST two
steps, easily forgotten/mixed up in an emergency.
With a transfer switch, you can monitor the power
being used with the meter, how much is on which leg,
and even control what can or can't run.
With a cutoff switch, after you get the generator
hooked up and running, then you have to be sure you
turn off several breakers, or go around and make sure
"extra" things aren't running.
With a transfer switch, using it assures you
disconnected from the incoming power by virtue of its
design. A cutoff switch just disconnects the whole
house and that's all.
With a transfer switch, you can still know when
power comes back. Not so with a cutoff switch.

Some codes still require a cutoff switch regardless of
whether you use a transfer switch or not, because they
predate transfer switches for residences.
Yes, I have a transfer switch. Yes, I used it
during the Ice Storm on '98, for 5 days, in fact. No,
I'm not required to have a cutoff switch. My
installation was inspected and passed with flying
colors.
Best to check on local codes.

Just my two cents

Pop


"rh455" wrote in
message ...

I wouldn't be energizing the entire house, only
select circuits to get
by. I'm debating the options of transfer switch or a
master cutoff
switch which would cut power off before the meter.
I'd know for certain
that the utility power is off before I could
backfeed. I'm not committed
to either option at the moment, I'm researching
before I decide. My
power comes out of the ground up to about 5' to the
meter. The power
exits the meter from behind(into the wall) and into a
perpendicular
interior wall about 5' to the breaker box. The
breaker box is confined
in a narrow spot.(Not much room for a transfer
switch). My neighbor's
house has a meter with a master cutoff box next to it
with a lever on
it. The power exits the cutoff switch from behind to
his breaker box.
To me, that's a positive way to cutoff power from the
pole. I have
nothing between the meter and the breaker box but the
main breaker. I'm
not opposed to a transfer switch, it's just that it
would be difficult
in my situation.

C & M Wrote:
Knowing nothing I'll add my two pence from that
standpoint. I
consulted
with a licensed and well experienced electrician.
He installed a
transfer
switch wich was $500 and his labor, another $400 as
I recall and it
works on
the alloted circuits as proven by a two day outage
last year. It seems
to
me that when you choose to energize the entire house
on a small
generator
you could overload it accidentally. And, as I said,
since I don't
know
anything about electricity I assume that this could
cause a
catastrophic
accident. No ones life is worth a savings of any
amount of money.

"

--
rh455

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[/color]



John Grabowski July 28th 05 02:35 AM

I think that these interlock kits utilize the existing main breaker and one
new 2 pole circuit breaker for the generator input. The two pole generator
circuit breaker will need to be located just below the main breaker in the
existing electrical panel. This insures that when the panel main is closed
the genny main is open. Shutting off the panel main will allow the genny
main to be turned on which in turn blocks the panel main from being flipped
back on.



"rh455" wrote in message
...

Excellent info John. I looked high and low and couldn't find an
interlock kit on CH's website. It looks like just a lockout plate and
decals in the kit. Isn't there two breakers in an interlock kit? One
for the utility power and one for the genny? If I do the interlock kit,
will I need another 30amp 240 breaker and wire it to another plug box to
connect the generator to?


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Pop July 28th 05 02:46 AM


"John Grabowski" wrote in
message ...
I think that these interlock kits utilize the existing
main breaker and one
new 2 pole circuit breaker for the generator input.
The two pole generator
circuit breaker will need to be located just below
the main breaker in the
existing electrical panel. This insures that when
the panel main is closed
the genny main is open. Shutting off the panel main
will allow the genny
main to be turned on which in turn blocks the panel
main from being flipped
back on.



"rh455" wrote in
message
...

Excellent info John. I looked high and low and
couldn't find an
interlock kit on CH's website. It looks like just a
lockout plate and
decals in the kit. Isn't there two breakers in an
interlock kit? One
for the utility power and one for the genny? If I do
the interlock kit,
will I need another 30amp 240 breaker and wire it to
another plug box to
connect the generator to?


--
rh455
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The way mine works is, you remove the branch wire from
the breaker and connect to the box, which goes to the
Common of a dpdt switch. The NC of that switch goes to
the regular breaker, so normally everything works as
before. The NO goes to the generator. Flip the switch
and power come from the generator instead of the power
company.
Thus, there is no possible way to ever switch the
generator output to the power company wiring. Barring
severe damage, it's foolproof.
I have 12 ckts on mine; that's plenty to run
everything I might need in an emergency situation. Oh,
it's also got an overcurrent breaker in case too muich
power's drawn, as does the generator also. Nothing
but breakers, so it's a pretty simple design. There's
also a current meter for each leg of the incoming split
phase power so you can see how balanced the thing is on
your generator.
It's convenient for testing periodically too, since
you just flip on the switches you need to create your
load. It's not even necessary to touch the main
breaker. Transfer switches make lots of sense. The
more expensive ones will even start the generator for
you, and switch everything over, automatically. But I
ain't that rich & don't mind flipping a switch &
pushing a button to start the generator.

Pop



rh455 July 28th 05 04:11 AM


John, in doing some research I found that the biggest fear of most is
that the main breaker may fail while in the off position thus still
allowing power flow as if it were still on. I suppose that this cenario
is still possible with an interlock kit. Is this right?


Pop, I don't have either switch at the moment, but don't I have to do
both of the steps you listed regardless of which switch I get? With a
cutoff, I go outside, throw the cutoff and lock it down. Then connect
the generator and turn on the circuits that I want. With a transfer
switch, I have to turn the main switch on the transfer switch from
utility to generator, connect the generator and select the circuits
that I want to run. Did I miss something? Aren't I doing the same steps
regardless of what switch I choose?

Another problem I'm facing is that the breaker box in my house is in a
confined area, barely wider than the box itself. I won't have any place
in the immediate area to install the transfer switch. From all ads I've
seen, the harness is only about 2'. The wall that the breaker box backs
up to is the breakfast area, so Wifey won't be thrilled about that. Any
ideas?


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Pop July 28th 05 04:51 PM

Comment inline :===

"rh455" wrote in
message ...

John, in doing some research I found that the biggest
fear of most is
that the main breaker may fail while in the off
position thus still
allowing power flow as if it were still on. I suppose
that this cenario
is still possible with an interlock kit. Is this
right?

=== Not addressed to me, but ... I have to wonder how
a mains breaker could "fail" while it's in the off
position. Some of them take a man and a boy just to
set them on.
What would be the "failure" mechanism they are
worried about? I can't see a Mains breaker either
turning ON spontaneously, or mechanically failing so it
can't be turned back on, being much of a worry.
The biggest "danger" in my opinion, is always that
the wrong person might discover the breaker and flip it
from ignorance, or a child playing in there, neither of
which should be easy to do. "Should" being the
operative word.

Pop, I don't have either switch at the moment, but
don't I have to do
both of the steps you listed regardless of which
switch I get?


=== I think that depends on your local codes, not my
descrip; please read on.

With a
cutoff, I go outside, throw the cutoff and lock it
down.

=== OK, that totally disconnects the entire house,
which is practical and totally acceptable. Now nothing
can go into the power lines as long as the switch was
the right type and design. So, I agree.

Then connect
the generator and turn on the circuits that I want.

=== The generator is always connected. In my (and
most others I know of) case, the generator can be left
plugged in. The only caveat is that, by code here at
least, there must be a "quick disconnect" provided for
the generator. That's so the power company, police,
fire, etc. can quickly disconnect power if there is a
generator running. So I was told, anyway.
My generator isn't literally connected all the time
though, per sae. I often load it onto a trailer to
haul around for the occasional job where I need
poertable power. It's only an 8,000 watt generator
(surge, I forget the steady run wattage at the moment).
In the summer it's not connected since it's so seldom
needed. Soon's the winter weather comes though, I put
it in its little compartment, plug it in, fuel it etc,
and plug it in for the duration. So, I may or may not
have to plug it in. To use it, I just roll it out of
its little "house", push the start button, and let 'er
rip soon's it's warmed up a bit.
But, point is, if your setup were good enough, you'd
never even have to disconnect it. Its output isn't
connected to anything because of the transfer switch.

With a transfer
switch, I have to turn the main switch on the
transfer switch from
utility to generator,

=== No. There is no Mains switch other than the
breakers on the generator.

connect the generator and select the circuits
that I want to run.

=== Yes, you would have to do that. My transfer
switch has 8 ckts, one of which is a 220V pair for the
well pump (we're rural). The other 6 go for furnace,
fridge, two for lights, one for the bedroom outlets,
and the last one to the basement lighting. If I need
to run the pump periodically I have to be sure the
fridge and furnace aren't running, but that's an
acceptable situation for me since I can't afford a
bigger generator. It takes the pump about two minutes
or so to build up the pressure tank and then I turn it
off; that's plenty for occasional drinking water and a
couple of toilet flushes, plus it protects the water
heater.
It's only REAL intent is to keep the house from
freezing and lit up for saftey/protection. The rest is
just gravy so that we can stay here if the power goes
out for an extended period of time, which has happened
twice since we got it, the worst being in '98.

Did I miss something? Aren't I doing the same steps
regardless of what switch I choose?

=== Sort of, but no, not quite. I apologize for
breaking up your paras like that, but I thought it
might be easier than trying to dispute or agree to
things that might interact. I don't consider the
"number" of actions as important as I do the simplicity
and reliability of the actions to be taken.
eg, it doesn't matter whether the generator is
plugged in or not. My transfer switch has no mains
breaker; just "replacement" breakers to my breakre box
for the generator to use. The "switches" in the
transfer switch are actually individual breakers. You
cannot use them like you would alight switch, but they
are designed to be turned on and off without becoming
damaged as the breakers in your box might do.


Another problem I'm facing is that the breaker box in
my house is in a
confined area, barely wider than the box itself. I
won't have any place
in the immediate area to install the transfer switch.
From all ads I've
seen, the harness is only about 2'. The wall that the
breaker box backs
up to is the breakfast area, so Wifey won't be
thrilled about that. Any
ideas?

=== True, the harness is short and best installed next
to your breaker/fuse box. But, when you get into the
instructions, you'll find I think, instructions to
extend it, including the wire gage and current
capacities, wire lengths, etc. for extension.
So, that harness can be extended. My location isn't
as cramped as yours, but I still chose to add about 6
feet to the harness. I used a box with clampdowns to
splice the wires, and ran them up to the breaker box
thru another piece of metal conduit.
Actually, since the transfer switch wiring (in my
case at least) consists of stranded wire in that
harness, it's my opinion that they assume you'll extend
it. If you've ever worked with stranded wire that
size, you'll know what I mean g! I extended it with
appropriately sized solid wire.

I forget whether it's "emergen" (no quotes) or
something close to that, but try googling on that and
see if you don't come across a transfer switch web
site. If that doesn't work, come back and ask me for
the web site. I'd just give it now, but I'm disabled
and at the moment it would be sort of a hardship to get
out there to find it.
Aha! Found it:
http://www.nbmc.com/images/emergenistall.jpg
And the web site entry is at:
http://www.nbmc.com/emergen/index.html

They give a pretty good description that might help
with understanding what i'm talking about.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned: You also need to
earth your generator to the house earth connection. I
think that's shown on that page, too. Safety reasons,
obviously.

HTH,

Pop



Member TPVFD July 28th 05 06:39 PM

rh455 wrote:
John, in doing some research I found that the biggest fear of most is
that the main breaker may fail while in the off position thus still
allowing power flow as if it were still on. I suppose that this cenario
is still possible with an interlock kit. Is this right?


Pop, I don't have either switch at the moment, but don't I have to do
both of the steps you listed regardless of which switch I get? With a
cutoff, I go outside, throw the cutoff and lock it down. Then connect
the generator and turn on the circuits that I want. With a transfer
switch, I have to turn the main switch on the transfer switch from
utility to generator, connect the generator and select the circuits
that I want to run. Did I miss something? Aren't I doing the same steps
regardless of what switch I choose?

Another problem I'm facing is that the breaker box in my house is in a
confined area, barely wider than the box itself. I won't have any place
in the immediate area to install the transfer switch. From all ads I've
seen, the harness is only about 2'. The wall that the breaker box backs
up to is the breakfast area, so Wifey won't be thrilled about that. Any
ideas?


That is a straw man put forward in an attempt to answer those who say
that they would never forget to open the main first. I don't see a
failure of a main breaker in the closed position as at all likely. What
I do see as likely is that the user will be tired, stressed out, drunk,
or elsewhere. If the user is elsewhere then their no it all teenage
child, fed up with no power wife, or ever so helpful neighbor will
attempt to use a system were a single mistake in two separate operations
will cause injury of death. With the interlock kit and a fixed male
inlet there is no way to make a deadly mistake with a suicide cord or a
back feed to the outside utility lines. In forty years of electric work
I have never seen a main breaker fail closed. I have however seen more
than a dozen of them fail open or unable to reset after opening on
repeated overloads.

To overcome your limited space you can mount a SquareD rain tight, feed
through panel out doors between the meter and the point of entry of the
service conductors. That panel will contain the interlock kit. It will
also provide you an outdoor source for air conditioning, well pump,
outbuildings, jacuzzi, or any other outside load. The flanged inlet;
such as the one shown at
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=21_27;
can be mounted right at the feed through panel. That will put your
generator operation all in one place.

If your home has any form of dual metering such as for off peak use of
AC or heating then you need to have the installation checked by an
electrician experienced in emergency power installations to eliminate
any possible sneak current paths between the two meters via equipment
served by both.

You won't have to select the circuits as long as you don't turn on too
much load there will be no problem.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Member TPVFD July 28th 05 07:12 PM

Pop wrote:
I can't take this anymore; gotta speak up.

A Transfer Switch, properly installed, automatically
disconnects the wired ckts from the mains, meter,
incoming power, whatever you want to call it, all in
ONE motion, and gives thos ckts to the generator ONLY.

A cutoff switch, though functional enough, is ANOTHER
added action in order to isolate the generator from the
power coming in. First you have to throw the cutoff
switch, then hook up your generator - at LEAST two
steps, easily forgotten/mixed up in an emergency.
With a transfer switch, you can monitor the power
being used with the meter, how much is on which leg,
and even control what can or can't run.
With a cutoff switch, after you get the generator
hooked up and running, then you have to be sure you
turn off several breakers, or go around and make sure
"extra" things aren't running.
With a transfer switch, using it assures you
disconnected from the incoming power by virtue of its
design. A cutoff switch just disconnects the whole
house and that's all.
With a transfer switch, you can still know when
power comes back. Not so with a cutoff switch.

Some codes still require a cutoff switch regardless of
whether you use a transfer switch or not, because they
predate transfer switches for residences.
Yes, I have a transfer switch. Yes, I used it
during the Ice Storm on '98, for 5 days, in fact. No,
I'm not required to have a cutoff switch. My
installation was inspected and passed with flying
colors.
Best to check on local codes.

Just my two cents

Pop


"rh455" wrote in
message ...

I wouldn't be energizing the entire house, only
select circuits to get
by. I'm debating the options of transfer switch or a
master cutoff
switch which would cut power off before the meter.
I'd know for certain
that the utility power is off before I could
backfeed. I'm not committed
to either option at the moment, I'm researching
before I decide. My
power comes out of the ground up to about 5' to the
meter. The power
exits the meter from behind(into the wall) and into a
perpendicular
interior wall about 5' to the breaker box. The
breaker box is confined
in a narrow spot.(Not much room for a transfer
switch). My neighbor's
house has a meter with a master cutoff box next to it
with a lever on
it. The power exits the cutoff switch from behind to
his breaker box.
To me, that's a positive way to cutoff power from the
pole. I have
nothing between the meter and the breaker box but the
main breaker. I'm
not opposed to a transfer switch, it's just that it
would be difficult
in my situation.

C & M Wrote:

Knowing nothing I'll add my two pence from that
standpoint. I
consulted
with a licensed and well experienced electrician.
He installed a
transfer
switch wich was $500 and his labor, another $400 as
I recall and it
works on
the alloted circuits as proven by a two day outage
last year. It seems
to
me that when you choose to energize the entire house
on a small
generator
you could overload it accidentally. And, as I said,
since I don't
know
anything about electricity I assume that this could
cause a
catastrophic
accident. No ones life is worth a savings of any
amount of money.

"

--
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[/color]

Pop
What you are calling a transfer switch is a transfer panel that contains
a number of transfer switches. I don't make that distinction to split
hairs but rather to point out that a transfer switch is simpler to
operate and provides more flexibility in which loads you can run. A
transfer panel offers better control but less flexibility in load
selection.

Each of the switches in a transfer panel is a transfer switch that
controls a single load or circuit. One advantage of that arrangement is
that you can transfer the selected loads and still leave some load
connected to the utility to indicate the return of public power.
Another advantage is that you greatly limit the likelihood of
overloading the generator to the point were it's Over Current Protective
Device opens and darkens the whole house again.

A double throw switch, or a pair of single throw switches that are
interlocked, which controls the entire supply to the home allows you to
run any load in the home up to the limit of the generators capacity.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Pop July 28th 05 10:25 PM

....
Pop
What you are calling a transfer switch is a transfer
panel that contains a number of transfer switches.
I don't make that distinction to split hairs but
rather to point out that a transfer switch is simpler
to operate and provides more flexibility in which
loads you can run. A transfer panel offers better
control but less flexibility in load selection.

=== Your comments are correct of course, but what a
person sees when he approaches mine is "Transfer
Switch" on the label. In many parlance it's common to
call a "box" of something by the singular form; thus I
suppose a "box" of transfer switches is "a" transfer
switch.
Google for "tansfer switch" and you won't get the
individual 3-position (or 2 position) switches, you'll
get a bunch of sites calling a "box" of transfer
switches a transfer switch, singular. It just makes
sense and is logical.
I have a feeling we're on opposite sides of the
high\low voltage equation?

One can go as far as they wish with definitions, but
it's generally best to go with what is "common" or
"perceived" usages. If someone asks you what a
transfer switch is, you're probably going to continue
describing dtdt, dptt, tptt and so on, but it would
have served no purpose to the post, IMO. But I
would describe it as a box with a set of switches to
isolate your generator from the mains lines. Which is
by far more accurate than trying to describe one of the
internal switches, in view of the current usage.

So, I'm at a loss as to just what the heck you are
trying to communicate in your post. Were you adding
to, subtracting from, or otherwise trying to
correct/revise something I said? You did address it
specifically to me, so it has to be my post your are
referring to.
If so, come out and say it. I'm not aware that I
gave any bad advice to the posters, so if there's
something wrong, be specific.

I don't bite :-)

Pop




rh455 July 29th 05 03:03 AM


Pop
What he means is, a transfer switch panel and a master transfer switch
are similar, but the "panel" transfers power to the circuits from the
generator/utility. A transfer "switch" is one large switch in the main
line that transfers power to the whole breaker box from the
generator/utility instead of individual circuits. That's the point. You
can get a transfer panel to power selected circuits or a general switch
to backfeed the whole board which in my case is much more convienent
for me.


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