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#1
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An A-frame solar water heater concept
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. . . . 30 F . . . . . pond . .-----------. ---- 12' . s 4' . 12' 10.4' . s . --S . s T . . s . 6.92' . s . . s . . s . .duct duct. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 12' We might build a 12'x16' equilateral A-frame with a 4'x12' shallow pond at the top (view above, in a fixed font) and 2 poly film water ducts along the north and south edges to avoid wind sliding and overturning... 20 psf makes 208 lb and 1082 ft-lb on each 1' EW slice of the greenhouse, so we need 12W = 1082 ie W = 90 pounds of water in each foot of duct, eg 1.44 ft^3 of water in a 16" duct. We could make each of the 10 slightly curved "half-bows" on 4' centers with 2 12' 1x3s with 1x3 spacer blocks every 2' and a hinge at the top, and use 3 horizontal 1x3 purlins. The south side could have 80% shadecloth to make hot air rise under the pond (which could be poly film over EPDM over foil over welded-wire fence.) If we can somehow arrange that most of the greenhouse stays cooler while the airpath between the shadecloth and glazing and under the pond is temp T during the day, and the space above the pond is also temp T, we might figure 0.9xsqrt(1000^2+620^2)12' = 12,712 Btu enters a 4' slice of south glazing on an average 30 F Jan day in Phila, and 0.81^2x4x1177 = 3813 of that enters the pond. At 130 F, it might also gain 6h(T-130)4ft^2x1.5 = 36T-4680 Btu/day from the bottom, and more, if the ground to the south is reflective. If the glazing loses 6h(T-30)12ft^2/R0.8 = 90T-2700 Btu/day and the daily energy that flows into the slice equals the energy that flows out, 12712 = 3813+(36T-4680) + 90T-2700, so T = 129 F, and the pond slice gains about 3813 Btu, and 50K/3813 = 13.1', so a 16' greenhouse might provide most of the heat in January. With about 3813x16'/6h = 10.2K Btu/h during solar collection, 5 gpm (2400 Btu/h-F) would rise 4 F, and 400'x1/2" PE pipe with 75 ft^2 of U30 surface would rise 10.2K/(75x30) = 5 F. A row house with a flat roof might have a $98 12' diameter x 3' tall EZ-Set pool in the basement with a $60 300'x1" fresh water pressurized PE pipe heat exchanger near the top of the pool under floating Styrofoam and a low-head pump with a $40 400'x1/2" PE pipe heat exchanger in the pool bottom. With lots of insulation and 0.8xPi(11/2)^2x3x62.33 = 14216 pounds of water at 110 F after 5 cloudy days, after supplying 5x50K Btu, it needs to be 110+250K/14216 = 128 F on an average day. Then again, it might melt :-) It might need reinforcing, eg a tarp tied up around it. Or maybe we need a different kind of pool. This might also be a standalone structure in a yard, with the filter pump that comes with the pool. Nick |
#2
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Nick Pine wrote: . ---- . . . . 30 F . . . . . pond . .-----------. ---- 12' . s 4' . 12' 10.4' . s . --S . s T . . s . 6.92' . s . . s . . s . .duct duct. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 12' We might build a 12'x16' equilateral A-frame with a 4'x12' shallow pond at the top (view above, in a fixed font) and 2 poly film water ducts along the north and south edges to avoid wind sliding and overturning... 20 psf makes 208 lb and 1082 ft-lb on each 1' EW slice of the greenhouse, so we need 12W = 1082 ie W = 90 pounds of water in each foot of duct, eg 1.44 ft^3 of water in a 16" duct. We could make each of the 10 slightly curved "half-bows" on 4' centers with 2 12' 1x3s with 1x3 spacer blocks every 2' and a hinge at the top, and use 3 horizontal 1x3 purlins. The south side could have 80% shadecloth to make hot air rise under the pond (which could be poly film over EPDM over foil over welded-wire fence.) If we can somehow arrange that most of the greenhouse stays cooler while the airpath between the shadecloth and glazing and under the pond is temp T during the day, and the space above the pond is also temp T, we might figure 0.9xsqrt(1000^2+620^2)12' = 12,712 Btu enters a 4' slice of south glazing on an average 30 F Jan day in Phila, and 0.81^2x4x1177 = 3813 of that enters the pond. At 130 F, it might also gain 6h(T-130)4ft^2x1.5 = 36T-4680 Btu/day from the bottom, and more, if the ground to the south is reflective. If the glazing loses 6h(T-30)12ft^2/R0.8 = 90T-2700 Btu/day and the daily energy that flows into the slice equals the energy that flows out, 12712 = 3813+(36T-4680) + 90T-2700, so T = 129 F, and the pond slice gains about 3813 Btu, and 50K/3813 = 13.1', so a 16' greenhouse might provide most of the heat in January. With about 3813x16'/6h = 10.2K Btu/h during solar collection, 5 gpm (2400 Btu/h-F) would rise 4 F, and 400'x1/2" PE pipe with 75 ft^2 of U30 surface would rise 10.2K/(75x30) = 5 F. A row house with a flat roof might have a $98 12' diameter x 3' tall EZ-Set pool in the basement with a $60 300'x1" fresh water pressurized PE pipe heat exchanger near the top of the pool under floating Styrofoam and a low-head pump with a $40 400'x1/2" PE pipe heat exchanger in the pool bottom. With lots of insulation and 0.8xPi(11/2)^2x3x62.33 = 14216 pounds of water at 110 F after 5 cloudy days, after supplying 5x50K Btu, it needs to be 110+250K/14216 = 128 F on an average day. Then again, it might melt :-) It might need reinforcing, eg a tarp tied up around it. Or maybe we need a different kind of pool. This might also be a standalone structure in a yard, with the filter pump that comes with the pool. Nick You used the word "Might" 8 times, "Could" 3 times, "If" 3 times, with a "Maybe" and "Somehow" once each. "Could" it be that you "Might" be proposing that "If" "Somehow" you "Maybe" actually built one you could prove your point without using those words that only confirm that you are in fact just guessing. |
#3
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"George Ghio" wrote in message ... Nick Pine wrote: . ---- . . . . 30 F . . . . . pond . .-----------. ---- 12' . s 4' . 12' 10.4' . s . --S . s T . . s . 6.92' . s . . s . . s . .duct duct. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 12' We might build a 12'x16' equilateral A-frame with a 4'x12' shallow pond at the top (view above, in a fixed font) and 2 poly film water ducts along the north and south edges to avoid wind sliding and overturning... 20 psf makes 208 lb and 1082 ft-lb on each 1' EW slice of the greenhouse, so we need 12W = 1082 ie W = 90 pounds of water in each foot of duct, eg 1.44 ft^3 of water in a 16" duct. We could make each of the 10 slightly curved "half-bows" on 4' centers with 2 12' 1x3s with 1x3 spacer blocks every 2' and a hinge at the top, and use 3 horizontal 1x3 purlins. The south side could have 80% shadecloth to make hot air rise under the pond (which could be poly film over EPDM over foil over welded-wire fence.) If we can somehow arrange that most of the greenhouse stays cooler while the airpath between the shadecloth and glazing and under the pond is temp T during the day, and the space above the pond is also temp T, we might figure 0.9xsqrt(1000^2+620^2)12' = 12,712 Btu enters a 4' slice of south glazing on an average 30 F Jan day in Phila, and 0.81^2x4x1177 = 3813 of that enters the pond. At 130 F, it might also gain 6h(T-130)4ft^2x1.5 = 36T-4680 Btu/day from the bottom, and more, if the ground to the south is reflective. If the glazing loses 6h(T-30)12ft^2/R0.8 = 90T-2700 Btu/day and the daily energy that flows into the slice equals the energy that flows out, 12712 = 3813+(36T-4680) + 90T-2700, so T = 129 F, and the pond slice gains about 3813 Btu, and 50K/3813 = 13.1', so a 16' greenhouse might provide most of the heat in January. With about 3813x16'/6h = 10.2K Btu/h during solar collection, 5 gpm (2400 Btu/h-F) would rise 4 F, and 400'x1/2" PE pipe with 75 ft^2 of U30 surface would rise 10.2K/(75x30) = 5 F. A row house with a flat roof might have a $98 12' diameter x 3' tall EZ-Set pool in the basement with a $60 300'x1" fresh water pressurized PE pipe heat exchanger near the top of the pool under floating Styrofoam and a low-head pump with a $40 400'x1/2" PE pipe heat exchanger in the pool bottom. With lots of insulation and 0.8xPi(11/2)^2x3x62.33 = 14216 pounds of water at 110 F after 5 cloudy days, after supplying 5x50K Btu, it needs to be 110+250K/14216 = 128 F on an average day. Then again, it might melt :-) It might need reinforcing, eg a tarp tied up around it. Or maybe we need a different kind of pool. This might also be a standalone structure in a yard, with the filter pump that comes with the pool. Nick You used the word "Might" 8 times, "Could" 3 times, "If" 3 times, with a "Maybe" and "Somehow" once each. "Could" it be that you "Might" be proposing that "If" "Somehow" you "Maybe" actually built one you could prove your point without using those words that only confirm that you are in fact just guessing. LOL, that was good. Nothing personal Nick. :-) |
#4
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George Ghio wrote:
. ---- . . . . 30 F . . . . . pond . .-----------. ---- 12' . s 4' . 12' 10.4' . s . --S . s T . . s . 6.92' . s . . s . . s . .duct duct. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 12' We might build a 12'x16' equilateral A-frame... You used the word "Might" 8 times, "Could" 3 times, "If" 3 times, with a "Maybe" and "Somehow" once each. Thank you for counting. "Could" it be that you "Might" be proposing that "If" "Somehow" you "Maybe" actually built one you could prove your point without using those words that only confirm that you are in fact just guessing. The only big risk is the plastic pool losing strength at 130 F, and there are solutions for that. I go overboard on the "mights" to avoid ignorant people like you raising angry challenges to 300-year-old settled physics. Nick |
#6
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:06:19 GMT, Ed Earl Ross wrote: You used the word "Might" 8 times, "Could" 3 times, "If" 3 times, with a "Maybe" and "Somehow" once each. Thank you for counting. "Could" it be that you "Might" be proposing that "If" "Somehow" you "Maybe" actually built one you could prove your point without using those words that only confirm that you are in fact just guessing. The only big risk is the plastic pool losing strength at 130 F, and there are solutions for that. I go overboard on the "mights" to avoid ignorant people like you raising angry challenges to 300-year-old settled physics. Perhaps a scale model would help settle the mights, coulds and maybes. Possibly. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.1 iQA/AwUBQt/6MwIk7T39FC4ZEQLBjwCgpHYWnOSLaajjDZmYg9350EvoM8UAo LVE FlQy9xY3IU5FvMX4IEtvEE9T =t78N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- -john wide-open at throttle dot info |
#7
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Ed Earl Ross wrote:
Perhaps a scale model would help settle the mights, coulds and maybes. EEs abandoned models 20 years ago in favor of simulations, and they don't do simulations for simple systems. Any sufficiently advanced technology appears to be magic, and the less you know, the more it seems to be magic. George Ghio measures risistors in amps, so a large part of the world is magic to him. Nick |
#8
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#9
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"Nick Pine" wrote in message ... . ---- . . . . 30 F . . . . . pond . .-----------. ---- 12' . s 4' . 12' 10.4' . s . --S . s T . . s . 6.92' . s . . s . . s . .duct duct. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 12' We might build a 12'x16' equilateral A-frame with a 4'x12' shallow pond at the top (view above, in a fixed font) and 2 poly film water ducts along the north and south edges to avoid wind sliding and overturning... 20 psf makes 208 lb and 1082 ft-lb on each 1' EW slice of the greenhouse, so we need 12W = 1082 ie W = 90 pounds of water in each foot of duct, eg 1.44 ft^3 of water in a 16" duct. We could make each of the 10 slightly curved "half-bows" on 4' centers with 2 12' 1x3s with 1x3 spacer blocks every 2' and a hinge at the top, and use 3 horizontal 1x3 purlins. The south side could have 80% shadecloth to make hot air rise under the pond (which could be poly film over EPDM over foil over welded-wire fence.) If we can somehow arrange that most of the greenhouse stays cooler while the airpath between the shadecloth and glazing and under the pond is temp T during the day, and the space above the pond is also temp T, we might figure 0.9xsqrt(1000^2+620^2)12' = 12,712 Btu enters a 4' slice of south glazing on an average 30 F Jan day in Phila, and 0.81^2x4x1177 = 3813 of that enters the pond. At 130 F, it might also gain 6h(T-130)4ft^2x1.5 = 36T-4680 Btu/day from the bottom, and more, if the ground to the south is reflective. If the glazing loses 6h(T-30)12ft^2/R0.8 = 90T-2700 Btu/day and the daily energy that flows into the slice equals the energy that flows out, 12712 = 3813+(36T-4680) + 90T-2700, so T = 129 F, and the pond slice gains about 3813 Btu, and 50K/3813 = 13.1', so a 16' greenhouse might provide most of the heat in January. With about 3813x16'/6h = 10.2K Btu/h during solar collection, 5 gpm (2400 Btu/h-F) would rise 4 F, and 400'x1/2" PE pipe with 75 ft^2 of U30 surface would rise 10.2K/(75x30) = 5 F. A row house with a flat roof might have a $98 12' diameter x 3' tall EZ-Set pool in the basement with a $60 300'x1" fresh water pressurized PE pipe heat exchanger near the top of the pool under floating Styrofoam and a low-head pump with a $40 400'x1/2" PE pipe heat exchanger in the pool bottom. With lots of insulation and 0.8xPi(11/2)^2x3x62.33 = 14216 pounds of water at 110 F after 5 cloudy days, after supplying 5x50K Btu, it needs to be 110+250K/14216 = 128 F on an average day. Then again, it might melt :-) It might need reinforcing, eg a tarp tied up around it. Or maybe we need a different kind of pool. This might also be a standalone structure in a yard, with the filter pump that comes with the pool. Nick I read the first paragraph and there was nothing to tell me what all this was about, so I stopped reading. What is the function of the A frame? Then I may read the rest of it. |
#10
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"News" wrote in message eenews.net... "Nick Pine" wrote in message ... . ---- . . . . 30 F . . . . . pond . .-----------. ---- 12' . s 4' . 12' 10.4' . s . --S . s T . . s . 6.92' . s . . s . . s . .duct duct. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 12' We might build a 12'x16' equilateral A-frame with a 4'x12' shallow pond at the top (view above, in a fixed font) and 2 poly film water ducts along the north and south edges to avoid wind sliding and overturning... 20 psf makes 208 lb and 1082 ft-lb on each 1' EW slice of the greenhouse, so we need 12W = 1082 ie W = 90 pounds of water in each foot of duct, eg 1.44 ft^3 of water in a 16" duct. We could make each of the 10 slightly curved "half-bows" on 4' centers with 2 12' 1x3s with 1x3 spacer blocks every 2' and a hinge at the top, and use 3 horizontal 1x3 purlins. The south side could have 80% shadecloth to make hot air rise under the pond (which could be poly film over EPDM over foil over welded-wire fence.) If we can somehow arrange that most of the greenhouse stays cooler while the airpath between the shadecloth and glazing and under the pond is temp T during the day, and the space above the pond is also temp T, we might figure 0.9xsqrt(1000^2+620^2)12' = 12,712 Btu enters a 4' slice of south glazing on an average 30 F Jan day in Phila, and 0.81^2x4x1177 = 3813 of that enters the pond. At 130 F, it might also gain 6h(T-130)4ft^2x1.5 = 36T-4680 Btu/day from the bottom, and more, if the ground to the south is reflective. If the glazing loses 6h(T-30)12ft^2/R0.8 = 90T-2700 Btu/day and the daily energy that flows into the slice equals the energy that flows out, 12712 = 3813+(36T-4680) + 90T-2700, so T = 129 F, and the pond slice gains about 3813 Btu, and 50K/3813 = 13.1', so a 16' greenhouse might provide most of the heat in January. With about 3813x16'/6h = 10.2K Btu/h during solar collection, 5 gpm (2400 Btu/h-F) would rise 4 F, and 400'x1/2" PE pipe with 75 ft^2 of U30 surface would rise 10.2K/(75x30) = 5 F. A row house with a flat roof might have a $98 12' diameter x 3' tall EZ-Set pool in the basement with a $60 300'x1" fresh water pressurized PE pipe heat exchanger near the top of the pool under floating Styrofoam and a low-head pump with a $40 400'x1/2" PE pipe heat exchanger in the pool bottom. With lots of insulation and 0.8xPi(11/2)^2x3x62.33 = 14216 pounds of water at 110 F after 5 cloudy days, after supplying 5x50K Btu, it needs to be 110+250K/14216 = 128 F on an average day. Then again, it might melt :-) It might need reinforcing, eg a tarp tied up around it. Or maybe we need a different kind of pool. This might also be a standalone structure in a yard, with the filter pump that comes with the pool. Nick I read the first paragraph and there was nothing to tell me what all this was about, so I stopped reading. What is the function of the A frame? Then I may read the rest of it. SAT: 780 math / 410 verbal |
#11
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#13
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Derek Broughton wrote:
Harry Chickpea wrote: (Nick Pine) wrote: We might build a 12'x16' equilateral A-frame with a 4'x12' shallow pond at the top (view above, in a fixed font) and 2 poly film water ducts along the north and south edges to avoid wind sliding and overturning... 20 psf makes 208 lb and 1082 ft-lb on each 1' EW slice of the greenhouse, so we need 12W = 1082 ie W = 90 pounds of water in each foot of duct, eg 1.44 ft^3 of water in a 16" duct. snip This might also be a standalone structure in a yard, with the filter pump that comes with the pool. Gotta laugh. Note the concept of putting water near the peak of a triangular prism to absorb and store heat. This wonderous idea is presented by the same Nickie that pooh-poohed the idea of inexpensively preheating water for a domestic water heater via the simple expedient of placing a 4" pipe underneath and along the ridgeline of a roof. IIRC, his comments were along the lines of what if it leaks, what if it freezes? Yet, he has no comment or solution for the same questions about his own Nickie special design. And your problem is??? In a stand-alone greenhouse, you don't have a serious problem if it springs a leak. If it's in your house, you sure do. It isn't my problem. As I pointed out to Nick at the time, a 4" pipe contains enough thermal mass, and the location is inherently warmer than the rest of the attic, to preclude freezing in all but the most extreme climates, and allowing a small cushion of air at the top for expansion would resolve the issue even if it did freeze. The pipe would be no more or less likely to spring a leak than any other pipe. I suggest that you and Nick might want to remember that people have plumbing and even gasp! bathtubs on the second floors of their homes, and condos and apartments and office buildings have plumbing that reaches to the sky. Somehow, they survive. Compare the likelihood of standard pipe leaking in a properly designed and protected tempering tank system to the potential for catastrophic leaks in "a 4'x12' shallow pond at the top and 2 poly film water ducts along the north and south edges to avoid wind sliding and overturning.." contained in a minimally protected A frame covered in plastic. Can you say "BB gun?" Can you say "mouse nibble?" Mice would find such a structure a nice winter home. Poly film - pipe. Poly film - pipe. Hmmm. Nope. I don't have a problem. |
#14
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"Harry Chickpea" wrote in message news:42e53afa.13651974@localhost... It isn't my problem. As I pointed out to Nick at the time, a 4" pipe contains enough thermal mass, and the location is inherently warmer than the rest of the attic, to preclude freezing in all but the most extreme climates, Say a 20 foot length of this 4" plastic pipe running under the roof apex in the attic. Say, 20C in the attic and water inside, coming in from the water mains at 5C, who long to raise the mass of water to 20C? How much are you going to gain from solar heat? It may take a while to payback the cost of the pipe and fitting. Just out of interest. |
#15
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Harry Chickpea wrote:
.... the same Nickie that pooh-poohed the idea of inexpensively preheating water for a domestic water heater via the simple expedient of placing a 4" pipe underneath and along the ridgeline of a roof. IIRC, his comments were along the lines of what if it leaks, what if it freezes? Yet, he has no comment or solution for the same questions about his own Nickie special design. And your problem is??? In a stand-alone greenhouse, you don't have a serious problem if it springs a leak. If it's in your house, you sure do. It isn't my problem. As I pointed out to Nick at the time, a 4" pipe contains enough thermal mass, and the location is inherently warmer than the rest of the attic, to preclude freezing in all but the most extreme climates, and allowing a small cushion of air at the top for expansion would resolve the issue even if it did freeze. The pipe would be no more or less likely to spring a leak than any other pipe. I suggest that you and Nick might want to remember that people have plumbing and even gasp! bathtubs on the second floors of their homes, and condos and apartments and office buildings have plumbing that reaches to the sky. Somehow, they survive. What do you consider "the most extreme climates"? Most of the US, and practically all of Canada, are subject to regular conditions _well_ under freezing, and we do NOT have plumbing along the ridgelines of our roofs. To prevent ice-damming, attics are kept as cold as possible, and all plumbing is kept below the insulation. If your attic is warm enough in winter to prevent a pipe freezing, you're wasting too much energy. I haven't a clue (and don't really care) if Nick's idea is sound, but his objection to a 4" pipe under the ridgeline of a roof certainly is. -- derek |
#16
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"Derek Broughton" wrote in message ... Harry Chickpea wrote: ... the same Nickie that pooh-poohed the idea of inexpensively preheating water for a domestic water heater via the simple expedient of placing a 4" pipe underneath and along the ridgeline of a roof. IIRC, his comments were along the lines of what if it leaks, what if it freezes? Yet, he has no comment or solution for the same questions about his own Nickie special design. And your problem is??? In a stand-alone greenhouse, you don't have a serious problem if it springs a leak. If it's in your house, you sure do. It isn't my problem. As I pointed out to Nick at the time, a 4" pipe contains enough thermal mass, and the location is inherently warmer than the rest of the attic, to preclude freezing in all but the most extreme climates, and allowing a small cushion of air at the top for expansion would resolve the issue even if it did freeze. The pipe would be no more or less likely to spring a leak than any other pipe. I suggest that you and Nick might want to remember that people have plumbing and even gasp! bathtubs on the second floors of their homes, and condos and apartments and office buildings have plumbing that reaches to the sky. Somehow, they survive. What do you consider "the most extreme climates"? Most of the US, and practically all of Canada, are subject to regular conditions _well_ under freezing, and we do NOT have plumbing along the ridgelines of our roofs. To prevent ice-damming, attics are kept as cold as possible, and all plumbing is kept below the insulation. If your attic is warm enough in winter to prevent a pipe freezing, you're wasting too much energy. A vented attic, in which the only function of the rood is to keep off the house, nothing else. I haven't a clue (and don't really care) if Nick's idea is sound, but his objection to a 4" pipe under the ridgeline of a roof certainly is. Only in Canada type of climates. |
#17
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Harry Chickpea becomes unpleasant:
We might build a 12'x16' equilateral A-frame with a 4'x12' shallow pond at the top (view above, in a fixed font) and 2 poly film water ducts along the north and south edges to avoid wind sliding and overturning... Gotta laugh. Note the concept of putting water near the peak of a triangular prism to absorb and store heat. This wonderous idea is presented by the same Nickie that pooh-poohed the idea of inexpensively preheating water for a domestic water heater via the simple expedient of placing a 4" pipe underneath and along the ridgeline of a roof. IIRC, his comments were along the lines of what if it leaks, what if it freezes? Yet, he has no comment or solution for the same questions about his own Nickie special design. Since you ask, I'll comment. The pond above is much more efficient than a pipe in the attic, and it's a draindown system with no exposed water to freeze at night. Nick would have people construct a special A-frame greenhouse instead, to attempt to capture enough heat to warm an entire house... Just hot water for showers. The "special greenhouse" might cost $200. making the cost/benefit ratio of heating water to the same temperature totally impractical... What does that mean? especially on those cold winter days when 90% cloud cover can be common for weeks at a time. That might happen north of the Arctic circle :-) ...a more simple alternative to A frame plan "A" might be the less pretentious plan "b," Unpretentious is nice :-) where a b shape holds a tank or pool at the base (on the ground), contained within strawbales, and a more or less vertical wall of inexpensive construction grade 2" x4" lumber forms the staff of the b, The staff of the b? partly braced by the tank and strawbales. This structure would be on the south side of a house, with a vegetable garden just south of the structure. Vegetable gardens don't reflect much sun... 1 clear plastic 2 clear plastic 3 black shadecloth 4 black plastic 5 insulation and frame 6 winterime tempered herbs cloche Sun 12345 ///// I ///// I ///// I ///// IHouse ///// I ///// I ///// plastic pla I ///// straw straw stic p I // 6/ pool or tank straw l I // /straw straw straw astic I garden south // /ground ground ground north house ....6 is the garden? Looks like your ascii art got corrupted. The southern side of that b wall would be double glazed with plastic, while the north side of the wall would have black plastic and black shadecloth over insulation and a simple frame. The wall might even tilt, like an italic letter b for a better solar angle. Cold water from the bottom of the tank would be pumped by a low volume pump (bilge pump?)... Attwood's $30 pumps have a 3 year guarantee and a 600 hour lifetime. to the top manifold and allowed to trickle down through the shadecloth (which would spread and even the flow) and over the black plastic, underneath the first closely-spaced layer of plastic glazing. Nice, altho this requires more pump power than a horizontal pond above a tank with a spiral pipe heat exchanger in the bottom which leaves the water level of the supply and return pipes just below the pond when the pump isn't running. What would you use for a pump and a tank, vs a $98 EZ-set setup? Since the pump would be controlled by a thermostat or solar sensor at the top of the b, it would only run when it could accumulate heat energy, and no water would be exposed to the cooling effects of night air or have to be drained or pumped without benefit. The heated water drips into and is allowed to accumulate on the top of the tank, thus preserving a greater delta T between the pumped water and the solar collector, increasing efficiency. Nice. You might turn the pump on with Grainger's $8 2E247 snap-disc thermostat in a 1 liter soda bottle (closed above 130 F and open below 115) and turn it off with Grainger's $10 2E365 thermostat (closed below 120 and open above 140) sensing the water temp, if you plan to use a pressurized flat PE pipe spiral as the cold water heat exchanger. Hot water for the house is taken from the top of the tank, and the return pipe enters below mid-level in multiple low-flow horizontal outlets to help preserve the stratification. You might pressurize the hot water, unless you live in the basement. The staw bale insulation for the pool or tank could be seeded with fertilizer or dried manure during the fall in preparation for the coldest part of the winter. During that period a small amount of water would be allowed to saturate the inner layer of straw, setting up an exothermic composting process underneath the pool that would be buffered by, and add to the heat of, the pool of water during those cloudy and short days that Nick's design fails to address. Sounds like work. You mightr say more about this compost process. I did address the cloudy and short days, using actual numbers :-) With this design, the weight of the large amount of water safely rests on straw which is on the ground, without requiring an expensive and possibly dangerous permanent structure. Same for the A-frame, with most of the water on the ground. ...The issue of freezing is avoided with the simple expedient of a small drainback hole in the pipe or hose from the pump to the top of the frame. Sounds familiar. When spring arrives, the plastic, shadecloth, and insulaton are removed from the frame, the hay from the south side of the tank is spread as compost and mulch, and a layer of clear plastic replaced to form a low tent along the south side of the tank, for use as a cloche/greenhouse in starting seedlings for the garden. "Work!" -- Maynard G. Krebs This design is superior to Nicks in that it has 1. far lower cost 2. far greater safety 3. far simpler and easier construction 4. year around use compared to seasonal use 5. no problems with freezing 6. secondary heat source for cold cloudy days 7. lower pumping costs per unit of useful heat 8. no structural permits and inspection required 9. less impact from vandalism 10. less environmental impact 11. portability 12. lack of acompanying psuedomath justification I disagree. Nick |
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George Ghio wrote:
snipped for brevity The simple solution Nick. Build it. Collect the real data from use. Compare data to your theory. I agree with this sentiment. It would be better for everyone if these theoretical projects were actually built and tested, with all data posted, before someone invests their time and money for construction and then finds out that the return on investment is insufficient. There are times when practice does not fulfill, what theory promises. |
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Cosmopolite wrote:
George Ghio wrote: The simple solution Nick. Build it. Collect the real data from use. Compare data to your theory. I agree with this sentiment. It would be better for everyone if these theoretical projects were actually built and tested, with all data posted, before someone invests their time and money for construction and then finds out that the return on investment is insufficient. There are times when practice does not fulfill, what theory promises. Well, the design is made public through this forum and it doesn't look like a demonstration/test version would be either difficult or expensive to build. Anyone could build it and tell us how it does or does not perform. It need not be Nick. Certainly, there must be someone with enough time on their hands to do such a thing. Anthony |
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"Cosmopolite" wrote in message news:OTgEe.166813$on1.153311@clgrps13... George Ghio wrote: snipped for brevity The simple solution Nick. Build it. Collect the real data from use. Compare data to your theory. I agree with this sentiment. It would be better for everyone if these theoretical projects were actually built and tested, with all data posted, before someone invests their time and money for construction and then finds out that the return on investment is insufficient. There are times when practice does not fulfill, what theory promises. Nick posted a theory. What is wrong with that? A theory that others may take up in full or partially, or spark somthing in their mind. Nick is a thinker and thinks out loud. Nothing wrong with that at all. I like thinkers. The problem is he writes like a "who done it". You have to read it all to find out what it does at the end, just like Agatha Christie. |
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Greetings Nick,
The real question is if more women will sleep with you because you use "solar energy" than will run screaming because you have a huge A-Frame in your yard. Let us know how it turns out, William |
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1 On 22 Jul 2005 19:59:03 -0700, " wrote: The real question is if more women will sleep with you because you use "solar energy" than will run screaming because you have a huge A-Frame in your yard. It is quite an erection, you know... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.1 iQA/AwUBQuKWUwIk7T39FC4ZEQJp1wCg+HAh7CPVHWIxIevbBcEbju/ThPYAoJm3 SF3dteQlkIOeMpxek81jPJ26 =2o/v -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- -john wide-open at throttle dot info ~~~~~~~~ The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining - JFK ~~~~~~~~ |
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