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  #1   Report Post  
Matt
 
Posts: n/a
Default Er, Uh, Kinda important

Hi!

I couldn't find alt.space.shuttle.repair, so I thought I'd come here.

Anyone have any ideas on how to fix a space shuttle? The gas gauge is
broken, and the other day some of the stuff I had taped together came
apart, and smashed a bunch of tile gizmos or something. (Whoo! that one
sure ****ed off my boss! Why that man is so sensitive about decorative
tile I HAVE NO IDEA!)

Anyway, he wants to launch Sunday or something, and I'll be damned if I
can get this gauge thing working. I've jiggled all the wires and
connectors, and I'll be damned if that helped anything. At this point
I'm thinking of taking out the gauge and just putting in a light that
comes on when it runs out of gas. And just to make sure I don't have to
work the weekend again, I think I'll put in a burnt out lamp.

Also, I was thinking maybe we could make some extra money around here
by selling advertising space on the shuttle. I think a big BLACK CAT
sticker would be much more appealing then those big NASA stickers
anyway.

Thanks for any help/suggestions!

- Some technician at NASA

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/ne...05-514626.html

  #2   Report Post  
SteveB
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Matt" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi!

I couldn't find alt.space.shuttle.repair, so I thought I'd come here.

Anyone have any ideas on how to fix a space shuttle? The gas gauge is
broken, and the other day some of the stuff I had taped together came
apart, and smashed a bunch of tile gizmos or something. (Whoo! that one
sure ****ed off my boss! Why that man is so sensitive about decorative
tile I HAVE NO IDEA!)

Anyway, he wants to launch Sunday or something, and I'll be damned if I
can get this gauge thing working. I've jiggled all the wires and
connectors, and I'll be damned if that helped anything. At this point
I'm thinking of taking out the gauge and just putting in a light that
comes on when it runs out of gas. And just to make sure I don't have to
work the weekend again, I think I'll put in a burnt out lamp.

Also, I was thinking maybe we could make some extra money around here
by selling advertising space on the shuttle. I think a big BLACK CAT
sticker would be much more appealing then those big NASA stickers
anyway.

Thanks for any help/suggestions!

- Some technician at NASA

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/ne...05-514626.html


I always thought those external tanks should be painted an ecru shade and
made to look like condoms. You know, with a little floppy thing on the
end.............

Steve


  #3   Report Post  
Don Young
 
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Default

I suggest adding a dipstick on a long string.
Don Young

"Matt" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi!

I couldn't find alt.space.shuttle.repair, so I thought I'd come here.

Anyone have any ideas on how to fix a space shuttle? The gas gauge is
broken, and the other day some of the stuff I had taped together came
apart, and smashed a bunch of tile gizmos or something. (Whoo! that one
sure ****ed off my boss! Why that man is so sensitive about decorative
tile I HAVE NO IDEA!)

Anyway, he wants to launch Sunday or something, and I'll be damned if I
can get this gauge thing working. I've jiggled all the wires and
connectors, and I'll be damned if that helped anything. At this point
I'm thinking of taking out the gauge and just putting in a light that
comes on when it runs out of gas. And just to make sure I don't have to
work the weekend again, I think I'll put in a burnt out lamp.

Also, I was thinking maybe we could make some extra money around here
by selling advertising space on the shuttle. I think a big BLACK CAT
sticker would be much more appealing then those big NASA stickers
anyway.

Thanks for any help/suggestions!

- Some technician at NASA

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/ne...05-514626.html



  #4   Report Post  
Edwin Pawlowski
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Matt" wrote in message
Anyone have any ideas on how to fix a space shuttle? The gas gauge is
broken, and the other day some of the stuff I had taped together came
apart, and smashed a bunch of tile gizmos or something. (Whoo! that one
sure ****ed off my boss! Why that man is so sensitive about decorative
tile I HAVE NO IDEA!)


Are you sure its the gauge? Maybe you are out of fuel. Happened with my
lawnmower once. Pushed the primer bulb, pulled the cord and nothing.
Before you start playing with the gauge, check to see the tank has fuel and
be sure to push the primer bulb three times.

If that does not work, RTFM!!!


  #5   Report Post  
Charlie Shanks
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Matt" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi!

I couldn't find alt.space.shuttle.repair, so I thought I'd come here.

Anyone have any ideas on how to fix a space shuttle? The gas gauge is
broken, and the other day some of the stuff I had taped together came
apart, and smashed a bunch of tile gizmos or something. (Whoo! that one
sure ****ed off my boss! Why that man is so sensitive about decorative
tile I HAVE NO IDEA!)

Anyway, he wants to launch Sunday or something, and I'll be damned if I
can get this gauge thing working. I've jiggled all the wires and
connectors, and I'll be damned if that helped anything. At this point
I'm thinking of taking out the gauge and just putting in a light that
comes on when it runs out of gas. And just to make sure I don't have to
work the weekend again, I think I'll put in a burnt out lamp.

Also, I was thinking maybe we could make some extra money around here
by selling advertising space on the shuttle. I think a big BLACK CAT
sticker would be much more appealing then those big NASA stickers
anyway.

Thanks for any help/suggestions!

- Some technician at NASA


This guy might have a suggestion or two. ). Maybe put a set of wings on
this thing, and forgetta about the shuttle.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=4561280339



  #6   Report Post  
SteveB
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Charlie Shanks" wrote

This guy might have a suggestion or two. ). Maybe put a set of wings on
this thing, and forgetta about the shuttle.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=4561280339


This thing better come with a box of Depends!

holy cow!

Steve


  #7   Report Post  
DJ
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 15 Jul 2005 18:34:11 -0700, "Matt" wrote:

Hi!

I couldn't find alt.space.shuttle.repair, so I thought I'd come here.

Anyone have any ideas on how to fix a space shuttle? The gas gauge is
broken, and the other day some of the stuff I had taped together came
apart, and smashed a bunch of tile gizmos or something. (Whoo! that one
sure ****ed off my boss! Why that man is so sensitive about decorative
tile I HAVE NO IDEA!)


Have you tried tapping the glass on the gauge? Sometimes the altimeter
needle sticks too, tapping it sets it free once again...

snip

- Some technician at NASA


SpaceCowboy
  #8   Report Post  
SteveB
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 15 Jul 2005 18:34:11 -0700, "Matt" wrote:

Hi!

I couldn't find alt.space.shuttle.repair, so I thought I'd come here.

Anyone have any ideas on how to fix a space shuttle? The gas gauge is
broken, and the other day some of the stuff I had taped together came
apart, and smashed a bunch of tile gizmos or something. (Whoo! that one
sure ****ed off my boss! Why that man is so sensitive about decorative
tile I HAVE NO IDEA!)



Duh. I bet you got the positive and negative switched.

Steve


  #9   Report Post  
Stormin Mormon
 
Posts: n/a
Default

all the parts you need at napa. You'll have it fixed by Sunday. Easy.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Matt" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi!

I couldn't find alt.space.shuttle.repair, so I thought I'd come here.

Anyone have any ideas on how to fix a space shuttle? The gas gauge is
broken, and the other day some of the stuff I had taped together came
apart, and smashed a bunch of tile gizmos or something. (Whoo! that one
sure ****ed off my boss! Why that man is so sensitive about decorative
tile I HAVE NO IDEA!)

Anyway, he wants to launch Sunday or something, and I'll be damned if I
can get this gauge thing working. I've jiggled all the wires and
connectors, and I'll be damned if that helped anything. At this point
I'm thinking of taking out the gauge and just putting in a light that
comes on when it runs out of gas. And just to make sure I don't have to
work the weekend again, I think I'll put in a burnt out lamp.

Also, I was thinking maybe we could make some extra money around here
by selling advertising space on the shuttle. I think a big BLACK CAT
sticker would be much more appealing then those big NASA stickers
anyway.

Thanks for any help/suggestions!

- Some technician at NASA

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/ne...05-514626.html


  #10   Report Post  
Stormin Mormon
 
Posts: n/a
Default

And screw the cap off, and look into the LOX tank, and make sure it's full,
too.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. ..

"Matt" wrote in message
Anyone have any ideas on how to fix a space shuttle? The gas gauge is
broken, and the other day some of the stuff I had taped together came
apart, and smashed a bunch of tile gizmos or something. (Whoo! that one
sure ****ed off my boss! Why that man is so sensitive about decorative
tile I HAVE NO IDEA!)


Are you sure its the gauge? Maybe you are out of fuel. Happened with my
lawnmower once. Pushed the primer bulb, pulled the cord and nothing.
Before you start playing with the gauge, check to see the tank has fuel and
be sure to push the primer bulb three times.

If that does not work, RTFM!!!





  #11   Report Post  
Matt
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Well, thanks everyone, but as it turns out we decided not to figure out
why the gauge isn't working. Turns out it really isn't important after
all.

But, we did decide that since there were three other working gauges, we
should swap the wiring between the one that isn't working, and one that
is, to help us troubleshoot the problem. I asked my boss if the result
of this could be that we end up with 2 gauges that don't work - he told
me 'shut up kid' and 'get with the program'.

Also, he told me: 'multiple failures would have to occur in multiple
systems for the worst-case scenario to come true'. Also that: 'Bottom
line is we've performed a lot of analysis and understanding and I think
we're smarter in understanding exactly what we have on the condition
and what we've got with our systems.'

So we have that going for us, which is nice.....

Also, we found some things called 'ground problems' and got rid of
them. I guess they didn't have anything to do with the original
problem, and no one knew about them. I asked my boss if he was kinda
embarrased to find major problems that no one noticed before, while
trying to fix a problem that no one understands - he said: 'Shut up,
kid, get with the program'.

Oh well, I'm just a lowly technician somewhere in NASA. See ya all at
the launch asplosion!!

Oh - Boss said to delete all our email, and shred any that has been
printed. I dunno whats up with that.

Any ideas?


http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050725/D8BIJ8400.html

  #12   Report Post  
badgolferman
 
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Default

Matt, 7/25/2005, 5:09:11 PM,
.com wrote:

Well, thanks everyone, but as it turns out we decided not to figure
out why the gauge isn't working. Turns out it really isn't important
after all.

But, we did decide that since there were three other working gauges,
we should swap the wiring between the one that isn't working, and one
that is, to help us troubleshoot the problem. I asked my boss if the
result of this could be that we end up with 2 gauges that don't work
- he told me 'shut up kid' and 'get with the program'.

Also, he told me: 'multiple failures would have to occur in multiple
systems for the worst-case scenario to come true'. Also that: 'Bottom
line is we've performed a lot of analysis and understanding and I
think we're smarter in understanding exactly what we have on the
condition and what we've got with our systems.'

So we have that going for us, which is nice.....

Also, we found some things called 'ground problems' and got rid of
them. I guess they didn't have anything to do with the original
problem, and no one knew about them. I asked my boss if he was kinda
embarrased to find major problems that no one noticed before, while
trying to fix a problem that no one understands - he said: 'Shut up,
kid, get with the program'.

Oh well, I'm just a lowly technician somewhere in NASA. See ya all at
the launch asplosion!!

Oh - Boss said to delete all our email, and shred any that has been
printed. I dunno whats up with that.

Any ideas?


http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050725/D8BIJ8400.html


I work at NASA also and know how to fix this problem. We don't bother
trying to repair it, we just custom build a new one and spend years
convincing Quality Assurance people it is safe and sound. The reason
your boss tells you "to get with the program" is that you are drinking
too much and should check out the Alcoholics Anonymous program.

--
"I miss. I miss. I miss. I make."
Seve Ballesteros describing his four-putt at Augusta's No. 16 in 1988.
  #13   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Greetings,

As I understand it there are four sensors. They should just fly the
shuttle with three working until they can fix the fourth (which they
should work very hard on.) The space shuttle is entirely safe if we
keep finding reasons never to fly. We will get more missions out of
the space shuttles before retirement if we take additional risks and
fly more missions than if we are so careful not to let one blow up that
we fly very very few missions. More spineless American syndrome if you
ask me. America is trying very hard to throw away the edge we have in
space technology (a very important field long term).

Just my 2 cents,
William

  #17   Report Post  
 
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Dan C wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:59:49 -0700, wrote:

As I understand it there are four sensors. They should just fly the
shuttle with three working until they can fix the fourth (which they
should work very hard on.)


You think so? Would you like to be on it, or a family member of yours be
on it, with a faulty safety system?


I would have been happy to be an Astronaut. I understand that there is
risk associated with it. There is risk associated with being a spy, or
the president, or in the military, or any number of professions. For
many, the risk is worth it. If you don't think so you can sit at home
and watch it on TV while eating potato chips.

Do you even understand what these
four sensors actually *DO* ?


My understanding is that they prevent the space shuttle from running
out of fuel by shutting down the engines before that happens. If the
space shuttle runs out of fuel it could blow up.


The space shuttle is entirely safe if we
keep finding reasons never to fly. We will get more missions out of
the space shuttles before retirement if we take additional risks and
fly more missions than if we are so careful not to let one blow up that
we fly very very few missions.


Are you speaking from the perspective of a highly educated aerospace
engineer, or simply blathering like an idiot with a 3rd grade education?
How could you possibly know how safe the shuttle is? You know nothing.


How do I know how safe the shuttle is? Simple, the shuttle has a long
history. Look at the percent of missions which result in disaster and
the shuttle is roughly that safe. It is a little more dangerous now
because the fleet has aged but it is also a little less dangerous
because we just spend 2.5 years overhauling the fleet. I last saw the
space shuttle in Florida March 9th, 2005 at which point I heard the
number of 3-4% chance of failure per mission. The truth is no one
knows exactly.


More spineless American syndrome if you ask me.


Nobody asked you, and your opinion is clearly worthless, you ignorant
doofus.


It is your opinion that my opinion is clearly worthless. I am an
"ignorant doofus?" Come on, give me a break.


America is trying very hard to throw away the edge we have in
space technology (a very important field long term).


You think so, huh? Who is challenging America in the "space race"?
Russia? France? LOL! Who?


China. China is challenging us. They are not challenging us in where
they are at. They are challenging us in their rate of advance. There
is currently no reason to believe they won't eventually surpass us
(even though they are Communist and we are a Democracy).


--
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951


PS: You aren't one of those Linux users who thinks all non Linux users
are an "ignorant doofus" are you?

  #19   Report Post  
Dan C
 
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Default

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:50:09 -0700, wrote:

Do you even understand what these
four sensors actually *DO* ?


My understanding is that they prevent the space shuttle from running
out of fuel by shutting down the engines before that happens. If the
space shuttle runs out of fuel it could blow up.


Almost. Close enough for the sake of this conversation. But.... What do
you think happens if the engines shut down before the shuttle has reached
a high enough altitude to break free of gravity and remain in space? The
problem which occurred last week was that the sensor indicated the tank
was empty (when it really wasn't), and therefore would have shut down the
engines. Guess what happens next...

Are you speaking from the perspective of a highly educated aerospace
engineer, or simply blathering like an idiot with a 3rd grade
education? How could you possibly know how safe the shuttle is? You
know nothing.


How do I know how safe the shuttle is? Simple, the shuttle has a long
history. Look at the percent of missions which result in disaster and
the shuttle is roughly that safe.


That is a VERY over-simplified view of things. The reality of it is that
you DO NOT launch if there are things which you KNOW are problems. That
way if things go wrong it is only because of things you did not know about
beforehand. The real name of this process is: "Operational Risk
Management" (ORM). It's how things are done.

You think so, huh? Who is challenging America in the "space race"?
Russia? France? LOL! Who?


China. China is challenging us. They are not challenging us in where
they are at. They are challenging us in their rate of advance. There
is currently no reason to believe they won't eventually surpass us (even
though they are Communist and we are a Democracy).


Wrong again. China is not currently anywhere near our level. The real
point here is that there is not really a "space race" any more. What are
they going to do, go to the moon?

If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951


PS: You aren't one of those Linux users who thinks all non Linux users
are an "ignorant doofus" are you?


Absolutely not.

--
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951

  #20   Report Post  
G Henslee
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dan C wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:50:09 -0700, wrote:


China. China is challenging us.


Wrong again. China is not currently anywhere near our level.



Try as you'd like, you cannot educate an idiot who thinks he knows
everything.


  #21   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dan C wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:50:09 -0700, wrote:

Do you even understand what these
four sensors actually *DO* ?


My understanding is that they prevent the space shuttle from running
out of fuel by shutting down the engines before that happens. If the
space shuttle runs out of fuel it could blow up.


Almost. Close enough for the sake of this conversation. But.... What do
you think happens if the engines shut down before the shuttle has reached
a high enough altitude to break free of gravity and remain in space? The
problem which occurred last week was that the sensor indicated the tank
was empty (when it really wasn't), and therefore would have shut down the
engines. Guess what happens next...


Yes, I am fully aware that the function of these sensors is important.
Good thing three out of four work. We just wouldn't have redundancy
for a mission while they fix it. Lots of space shuttle systems don't
have redundancy.


Are you speaking from the perspective of a highly educated aerospace
engineer, or simply blathering like an idiot with a 3rd grade
education? How could you possibly know how safe the shuttle is? You
know nothing.


How do I know how safe the shuttle is? Simple, the shuttle has a long
history. Look at the percent of missions which result in disaster and
the shuttle is roughly that safe.


That is a VERY over-simplified view of things. The reality of it is that
you DO NOT launch if there are things which you KNOW are problems. That
way if things go wrong it is only because of things you did not know about
beforehand. The real name of this process is: "Operational Risk
Management" (ORM). It's how things are done.


The real name of this process is "Cover Your Ass (CYA)". A
spineless CYA culture is incapable of simultaneously being a Can-Do
culture that makes things happen. Risks need to be taken or progress
slows to a halt. People need to start getting mad about the lack of
America's progress in space instead of the shuttle disasters.


You think so, huh? Who is challenging America in the "space race"?
Russia? France? LOL! Who?


China. China is challenging us. They are not challenging us in where
they are at. They are challenging us in their rate of advance. There
is currently no reason to believe they won't eventually surpass us (even
though they are Communist and we are a Democracy).


Wrong again. China is not currently anywhere near our level. The real
point here is that there is not really a "space race" any more. What are
they going to do, go to the moon?


You are right. We are not in a space race. We are just sitting there
and China is rapidly advancing. China IS going to go to the moon.
None of the people who sent us to the moon would be much help going
back. In many ways it would be like going for the first time all over
again. The shuttle should have been replaced after 10 years with a
better vehicle and then the vehicle after that should have been
replaced by now. We should have long ago colonized the moon and
perhaps Mars. We should have completed the superconducting
supercollider. The list goes on and on. I am happy to see bush
setting some meager goals in the distant future but the fact is we have
been sitting on our hands. We are just sitting here waiting to be
passed. Unless we change our attitude it will happen.


If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951


PS: You aren't one of those Linux users who thinks all non Linux users
are an "ignorant doofus" are you?


Absolutely not.


Good. I run Fedora or Red Hat Enterprise Linux on all of my systems.
(Except I have a Mac and a Windows 2000 system specifically for testing
setup in VMWare) I do some software development from time to time.
What is your profession?


--
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951


  #22   Report Post  
Duane Bozarth
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dan C wrote:

.....
... and therefore would have shut down the engines. ...


No, it would have been one bad input to a logic-voting system...

It also is in a safety system, not the primary operating system
apparently...
  #23   Report Post  
Dan C
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:18:55 -0700, wrote:

Almost. Close enough for the sake of this conversation. But.... What do
you think happens if the engines shut down before the shuttle has reached
a high enough altitude to break free of gravity and remain in space? The
problem which occurred last week was that the sensor indicated the tank
was empty (when it really wasn't), and therefore would have shut down the
engines. Guess what happens next...


Yes, I am fully aware that the function of these sensors is important.
Good thing three out of four work. We just wouldn't have redundancy
for a mission while they fix it.


With a sensor of this magnitude, you don't go on a mission without
redundancy. It's really that simple.

That is a VERY over-simplified view of things. The reality of it is that
you DO NOT launch if there are things which you KNOW are problems. That
way if things go wrong it is only because of things you did not know about
beforehand. The real name of this process is: "Operational Risk
Management" (ORM). It's how things are done.


The real name of this process is "Cover Your Ass (CYA)". A
spineless CYA culture is incapable of simultaneously being a Can-Do
culture that makes things happen. Risks need to be taken or progress
slows to a halt. People need to start getting mad about the lack of
America's progress in space instead of the shuttle disasters.


There is some truth to that, but there is more to it. In this day and
age, politics and public opinion play more of a part than they should (or
used to). Imagine the public outcry if another Colombia happened with
this mission. Public outcry means Congress doesn't fund next year.
That's reality.

Wrong again. China is not currently anywhere near our level. The real
point here is that there is not really a "space race" any more. What are
they going to do, go to the moon?


You are right. We are not in a space race. We are just sitting there
and China is rapidly advancing. China IS going to go to the moon.


Assuming that is true (and I don't know that it is), how does it hurt us
if they go to the moon? We've already been there.

again. The shuttle should have been replaced after 10 years with a
better vehicle and then the vehicle after that should have been
replaced by now. We should have long ago colonized the moon and
perhaps Mars. We should have completed the superconducting
supercollider. The list goes on and on. I am happy to see bush
setting some meager goals in the distant future but the fact is we have
been sitting on our hands. We are just sitting here waiting to be
passed. Unless we change our attitude it will happen.


Most of this I agree with. I also would have liked to see us do much more
with the space program over the last 30 years. What you are missing here
is that the reason it hasn't happened is not the fault of NASA. It is the
fault of a Congress that won't fund things, which is a result of the
general public not giving a damn about space exploration. The average
American today is more interested in social programs, tree hugging, and
tax evasion. That is where the real fault is, right there. The American
public. If you want things to change, you must begin there.

Good. I run Fedora or Red Hat Enterprise Linux on all of my systems.
(Except I have a Mac and a Windows 2000 system specifically for testing
setup in VMWare) I do some software development from time to time. What
is your profession?


Hmmm.... so why do you post from Google Groups? Get a real newsreader.
As for me, I'm an electronics engineer, closely associated with the
federal government...

--
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951

  #24   Report Post  
Duane Bozarth
 
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Dan C wrote:

....
With a sensor of this magnitude, you don't go on a mission without
redundancy. ...


From what I heard, this is only one of four of a system that is the
redundant system...
  #25   Report Post  
Duane Bozarth
 
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Duane Bozarth wrote:

Dan C wrote:

....
... and therefore would have shut down the engines. ...


No, it would have been one bad input to a logic-voting system...

It also is in a safety system, not the primary operating system
apparently...


IOW, it ain't nearly as big a deal as all the news-babes are trying to
breathlessly tell us it is...


  #26   Report Post  
Dan C
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:45:21 -0500, Duane Bozarth wrote:

With a sensor of this magnitude, you don't go on a mission without
redundancy. ...


From what I heard, this is only one of four of a system that is the
redundant system...


Exactly. Again, with a sensor of this magnitude, more than one backup is
needed. It's that important.

--
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951

  #27   Report Post  
Dan C
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:46:21 -0500, Duane Bozarth wrote:

... and therefore would have shut down the engines. ...


No, it would have been one bad input to a logic-voting system...
It also is in a safety system, not the primary operating system
apparently...


IOW, it ain't nearly as big a deal as all the news-babes are trying to
breathlessly tell us it is...


It's big enough to keep the NASA administrators and engineers from going
ahead with a launch. Perhaps they know more than you do?

--
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951

  #29   Report Post  
G Henslee
 
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Dan C wrote:



Hmmm.... so why do you post from Google Groups?



Because is a lying pos.
  #30   Report Post  
 
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Greetings,

Why would I lie about using Linux?

I switched from Solaris to Red Hat Linux hard core since release 5.2 I
have had to use Solaris, QNX, and a little HP-UX since then but I
generally use Linux whenever I have a choice. Three of my last four
laptops have been IBMs (and I didn't pay for the Dell) because they are
well supported by Linux. I use Google Groups because it portable.

Hope this helps,
William

G Henslee wrote:
Dan C wrote:



Hmmm.... so why do you post from Google Groups?



Because is a lying pos.




  #31   Report Post  
 
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Dan C wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:18:55 -0700, wrote:

Almost. Close enough for the sake of this conversation. But.... What do
you think happens if the engines shut down before the shuttle has reached
a high enough altitude to break free of gravity and remain in space? The
problem which occurred last week was that the sensor indicated the tank
was empty (when it really wasn't), and therefore would have shut down the
engines. Guess what happens next...


Yes, I am fully aware that the function of these sensors is important.
Good thing three out of four work. We just wouldn't have redundancy
for a mission while they fix it.


With a sensor of this magnitude, you don't go on a mission without
redundancy. It's really that simple.

That is a VERY over-simplified view of things. The reality of it is that
you DO NOT launch if there are things which you KNOW are problems. That
way if things go wrong it is only because of things you did not know about
beforehand. The real name of this process is: "Operational Risk
Management" (ORM). It's how things are done.


The real name of this process is "Cover Your Ass (CYA)". A
spineless CYA culture is incapable of simultaneously being a Can-Do
culture that makes things happen. Risks need to be taken or progress
slows to a halt. People need to start getting mad about the lack of
America's progress in space instead of the shuttle disasters.


There is some truth to that, but there is more to it. In this day and
age, politics and public opinion play more of a part than they should (or
used to). Imagine the public outcry if another Colombia happened with
this mission. Public outcry means Congress doesn't fund next year.
That's reality.


That's spineless Americans. NASA also does an atrocious job of
communicating that the goal isn't to have the least failures but
instead to have the most success. I have NEVER heard anyone from NASA
or a congressman or the president make remarks to that effect. They
also do a poor job of managing expectations. They need to come out and
say they expect things to blow up from time to time and that doesn't
indicate a problem with the way NASA is doing business. They should
stop apologizing when something does blow up. I don't apologize to a
tenant when a roof develops a leak. I fix it and move on.


Wrong again. China is not currently anywhere near our level. The real
point here is that there is not really a "space race" any more. What are
they going to do, go to the moon?


You are right. We are not in a space race. We are just sitting there
and China is rapidly advancing. China IS going to go to the moon.


Assuming that is true (and I don't know that it is), how does it hurt us
if they go to the moon? We've already been there.


It is a matter of long term national security. Many Americans alive
today have never been in a major war (WWII, etc). They simply don't
see how it could happen, but it could. Countries fight with each
other. This has been going on for a long time and I don't see an end
in sight. "Lately" the country with some combination of the most
advanced technology and the biggest military always wins. China has a
significantly larger population than us. We need to stay far ahead of
them technologically. If we are always ahead, we are always safe. No
one knows who will be fighting who in the future. Saddam Hussein was
once a good guy, now he is a bad guy. Why do Americans believe we
could not be at war with China 30 years from now? I am not forecasting
a war with China in 30 years any more than I could forecast the
weather, but I am quite certain it will one day rain again.


again. The shuttle should have been replaced after 10 years with a
better vehicle and then the vehicle after that should have been
replaced by now. We should have long ago colonized the moon and
perhaps Mars. We should have completed the superconducting
supercollider. The list goes on and on. I am happy to see bush
setting some meager goals in the distant future but the fact is we have
been sitting on our hands. We are just sitting here waiting to be
passed. Unless we change our attitude it will happen.


Most of this I agree with. I also would have liked to see us do much more
with the space program over the last 30 years. What you are missing here
is that the reason it hasn't happened is not the fault of NASA. It is the
fault of a Congress that won't fund things, which is a result of the
general public not giving a damn about space exploration. The average
American today is more interested in social programs, tree hugging, and
tax evasion. That is where the real fault is, right there. The American
public. If you want things to change, you must begin there.


I agree that the American public is the root problem. I think the
generation that could have changed who the American public is missed
the boat. I don't see a way out. Welfare recipients are vastly out
birthing two income families. Our only hope is that something drastic
will come along and rock the boat and we'll luck into a better
situation. Perhaps illegal immigrants from Mexico will change the
voter population and make productive change but based upon the
corruption Mexicans vote for in Mexico I don't think so.


Good. I run Fedora or Red Hat Enterprise Linux on all of my systems.
(Except I have a Mac and a Windows 2000 system specifically for testing
setup in VMWare) I do some software development from time to time. What
is your profession?


Hmmm.... so why do you post from Google Groups? Get a real newsreader.
As for me, I'm an electronics engineer, closely associated with the
federal government...


What newsreader should I use? I am glad at least a tiny fraction of my
tax dollars go to EE's to do something (defense contractor?).


--
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951


  #32   Report Post  
badgolferman
 
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, 7/26/2005, 3:34:16 AM, wrote:

What newsreader should I use?


I am not a Linux user but may I make a suggestion for Pan?
http://pan.rebelbase.com/

--
"I miss. I miss. I miss. I make."
Seve Ballesteros describing his four-putt at Augusta's No. 16 in 1988.
  #33   Report Post  
Dan C
 
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On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:34:16 -0700, wrote:

There is some truth to that, but there is more to it. In this day and
age, politics and public opinion play more of a part than they should (or
used to). Imagine the public outcry if another Colombia happened with
this mission. Public outcry means Congress doesn't fund next year.
That's reality.


That's spineless Americans. NASA also does an atrocious job of
communicating that the goal isn't to have the least failures but
instead to have the most success. I have NEVER heard anyone from NASA
or a congressman or the president make remarks to that effect. They
also do a poor job of managing expectations. They need to come out and
say they expect things to blow up from time to time and that doesn't
indicate a problem with the way NASA is doing business. They should
stop apologizing when something does blow up. I don't apologize to a
tenant when a roof develops a leak. I fix it and move on.


You clearly don't have a good grip on reality. Whether you like it or
not, idealism isn't reality. If you honestly believe that managing an
apartment building is anything even similar to managing a space shuttle
program, you are very much delusional. I have a feeling our conversation
on this matter is nearly over.

Assuming that is true (and I don't know that it is), how does it hurt
us if they go to the moon? We've already been there.


It is a matter of long term national security. Many Americans alive
today have never been in a major war (WWII, etc). They simply don't see
how it could happen, but it could. Countries fight with each other.
This has been going on for a long time and I don't see an end in sight.
"Lately" the country with some combination of the most advanced
technology and the biggest military always wins. China has a
significantly larger population than us. We need to stay far ahead of
them technologically. If we are always ahead, we are always safe. No
one knows who will be fighting who in the future. Saddam Hussein was
once a good guy, now he is a bad guy. Why do Americans believe we could
not be at war with China 30 years from now? I am not forecasting a war
with China in 30 years any more than I could forecast the weather, but I
am quite certain it will one day rain again.


We *ARE* far ahead of them technologically, and will be for any
foreseeable future. You don't think America's technology progress is
indicated only by how many space shuttles we launch, do you? Wake up.

Good. I run Fedora or Red Hat Enterprise Linux on all of my systems.
(Except I have a Mac and a Windows 2000 system specifically for
testing setup in VMWare) I do some software development from time to
time. What is your profession?


Hmmm.... so why do you post from Google Groups? Get a real newsreader.
As for me, I'm an electronics engineer, closely associated with the
federal government...


What newsreader should I use? I am glad at least a tiny fraction of my
tax dollars go to EE's to do something (defense contractor?).


Assuming you are using Windoze, I believe Forte Agent is the most widely
used newsreader. If you do indeed use Linux... (?), I prefer Pan.

--
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951

  #34   Report Post  
Duane Bozarth
 
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Dan C wrote:

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:45:21 -0500, Duane Bozarth wrote:

With a sensor of this magnitude, you don't go on a mission without
redundancy. ...


From what I heard, this is only one of four of a system that is the
redundant system...


Exactly. Again, with a sensor of this magnitude, more than one backup is
needed. It's that important.


My intent was the reverse...because it is one of four redundant
systems in a backup system, this particular sensor isn't all that
important...
  #35   Report Post  
Duane Bozarth
 
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Dan C wrote:

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:46:21 -0500, Duane Bozarth wrote:

... and therefore would have shut down the engines. ...


No, it would have been one bad input to a logic-voting system...
It also is in a safety system, not the primary operating system
apparently...


IOW, it ain't nearly as big a deal as all the news-babes are trying to
breathlessly tell us it is...


It's big enough to keep the NASA administrators and engineers from going
ahead with a launch. Perhaps they know more than you do?


Well, as of last night they were planning on going ahead irregardless of
this sensor...it was listening to them yesterday evening that provided
the information I had about the fact this is the redundant safety system
and only 1-in-4 in it...not exactly an irreplaceable piece of data...


  #36   Report Post  
 
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Duane Bozarth wrote:
Dan C wrote:

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:46:21 -0500, Duane Bozarth wrote:

... and therefore would have shut down the engines. ...


No, it would have been one bad input to a logic-voting system...
It also is in a safety system, not the primary operating system
apparently...


IOW, it ain't nearly as big a deal as all the news-babes are trying to
breathlessly tell us it is...


It's big enough to keep the NASA administrators and engineers from going
ahead with a launch. Perhaps they know more than you do?


Well, as of last night they were planning on going ahead irregardless of
this sensor...it was listening to them yesterday evening that provided
the information I had about the fact this is the redundant safety system
and only 1-in-4 in it...not exactly an irreplaceable piece of data...


Hurray!

I am heartened to hear this.

Thanks for letting us know Duane.

  #37   Report Post  
Duane Bozarth
 
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" wrote:

Duane Bozarth wrote:
Dan C wrote:

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:46:21 -0500, Duane Bozarth wrote:

... and therefore would have shut down the engines. ...

No, it would have been one bad input to a logic-voting system...
It also is in a safety system, not the primary operating system
apparently...

IOW, it ain't nearly as big a deal as all the news-babes are trying to
breathlessly tell us it is...

It's big enough to keep the NASA administrators and engineers from going
ahead with a launch. Perhaps they know more than you do?


Well, as of last night they were planning on going ahead irregardless of
this sensor...it was listening to them yesterday evening that provided
the information I had about the fact this is the redundant safety system
and only 1-in-4 in it...not exactly an irreplaceable piece of data...


Hurray!

I am heartened to hear this.

Thanks for letting us know Duane.


Yeah, this whole episode has been a nauseating display of totally inept
reporting exemplifying how little comprehension the news media has of
what any piece of even remotely technical information means in the first
place and of trying to manufacture an episode from what is, essentially,
a non-event in the second.
  #38   Report Post  
Dan C
 
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On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:45:14 -0500, Duane Bozarth wrote:

From what I heard, this is only one of four of a system that is the
redundant system...


Exactly. Again, with a sensor of this magnitude, more than one backup is
needed. It's that important.


My intent was the reverse...because it is one of four redundant
systems in a backup system, this particular sensor isn't all that
important...


Your intent (and you) are wrong.

--
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951

  #39   Report Post  
Duane Bozarth
 
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Dan C wrote:

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:45:14 -0500, Duane Bozarth wrote:

From what I heard, this is only one of four of a system that is the
redundant system...


Exactly. Again, with a sensor of this magnitude, more than one backup is
needed. It's that important.


My intent was the reverse...because it is one of four redundant
systems in a backup system, this particular sensor isn't all that
important...


Your intent (and you) are wrong.


How can you demonstrate that other than personal belief? I do not
believe I am wrong based on what NASA said in the news conference that I
saw and their announced decision to fly w/o it...if you have factual
information you can reference that shows an error in what I have said,
I'd be happy to reconsider.
  #40   Report Post  
Dan C
 
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On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:00:31 -0500, Duane Bozarth wrote:

My intent was the reverse...because it is one of four redundant
systems in a backup system, this particular sensor isn't all that
important...


Your intent (and you) are wrong.


How can you demonstrate that other than personal belief? I do not
believe I am wrong based on what NASA said in the news conference that I
saw and their announced decision to fly w/o it...if you have factual
information you can reference that shows an error in what I have said,
I'd be happy to reconsider.


You'll be happy to reconsider what, exactly? That the sensor isn't
important? If it wasn't, why was the mission scrubbed two weeks ago?
Also, the sensor was working this morning, there was no "decision to fly
without it". Discovery is now in space, let's just leave it at that.

--
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951

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