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longshot
 
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Default my garage sweats

what causes condensation to build up in my garage? I live in midwest &
weather isn't extreme. The garage is not insulated or heated. I am tired of
the rust on my tools. anyone know how to cure it?

Thanks
Rob


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Joseph Meehan
 
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longshot wrote:
what causes condensation to build up in my garage? I live in midwest &
weather isn't extreme. The garage is not insulated or heated. I am
tired of the rust on my tools. anyone know how to cure it?

Thanks
Rob


Most of the time, you drive you car in the rain, bring in a large warm
car in to a cooler enclosed area and you get condensation. Leave the door
open or provide some sort of ventilation.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit


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Edwin Pawlowski
 
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"longshot" wrote in message
news2tme.18796$Is4.4155@attbi_s21...
what causes condensation to build up in my garage? I live in midwest &
weather isn't extreme. The garage is not insulated or heated. I am tired
of the rust on my tools. anyone know how to cure it?

Thanks
Rob


Temperature differential and moist air. The garage is probably cooler than
the outside air right now. You bring in the warm outside air, close the
door and the moisture condenses. Leave the door open longer or heat the
garage a bit.

Meantime, protect your tools with something like Top Cote, Boeshield, etc.


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longshot
 
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I don't park im my garage, i have too many tools in there. ) it's pretty
much ajuys ta shop & storage, besides, my car is a company truck. )


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Greg O
 
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"longshot" wrote in message
news2tme.18796$Is4.4155@attbi_s21...
what causes condensation to build up in my garage? I live in midwest &
weather isn't extreme. The garage is not insulated or heated. I am tired
of the rust on my tools. anyone know how to cure it?

Thanks
Rob



You need to ventilate or heat it. Even spot heating with a light bulb will
help. You need to keep the temperature of your tools above dewpont.
Greg




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longshot
 
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You need to ventilate or heat it. Even spot heating with a light bulb will
help. You need to keep the temperature of your tools above dewpont.
Greg

ummm what's the temperature of "dewpoint" ?


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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"longshot" wrote in message


what causes condensation to build up in my garage? I live in midwest &
weather isn't extreme. The garage is not insulated or heated. I am tired
of the rust on my tools. anyone know how to cure it?


Temperature differential and moist air. The garage is probably cooler than
the outside air right now. You bring in the warm outside air, close the
door and the moisture condenses. Leave the door open longer or heat the
garage a bit.


Or use an exhaust fan with a differential humidistat.

Nick

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Joseph Meehan
 
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longshot wrote:
You need to ventilate or heat it. Even spot heating with a light
bulb will help. You need to keep the temperature of your tools above
dewpont. Greg

ummm what's the temperature of "dewpoint" ?


It's a moving target. It is the temperature where the humidity hit's
100% If your tools are below that temperature, even if the air is warmer,
the moisture will condense on the tools.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit


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longshot wrote:

...what's the temperature of "dewpoint" ?


Dew collects on grass when the grass temperature is less than
the dewpoint temperature of the air near the grass (which
increases with increasing humidity.)

Condensation appears on a tool in a garage when the tool temp
is less than the dewpoint of the garage air near the tool.

If you stir a glass of water with an ice cube with a thermometer,
it reads the dewpoint temp of the ambient air when condensation
(dew) first appears on the outside of the glass.

Td = Ta/(1-Taln(R)/9621), approximately, with temperatures in absolute
Rankine degrees and RH R in fractional form. For instance, 70 F (Ta
= 70+460 = 530 R) air at 50% RH (R = 0.5) has Td = 530/(1-530ln(0.5)/9621)
= 510.5 R, ie Td = 510.5-460 = 50.5 F.

Nick

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Stretch
 
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Longshot,

Be careful of ventilation. If the humidity ratio outside in grains of
moisture per pound of air is higher than the humidity ratio inside the
garage, you will not make things better. You would do yourself a favor
to add some heat instead. Also, don't use a kerosene heater or some
other UNVENTED fuel burnung heater, they add a lot of water vapor to
the air. If you have a cabinet that you keep your tools in, you can
add a heat lamp or a couple of light bulbs to warm the air inside the
cabinet. If the tools hang on a wall, a couple of heat lamps aimed at
the tools should help. Be careful not to get the lights too close to
wood or other flamable materials as you could start a fire.

Stretch



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Mortimer Schnerd, RN
 
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longshot wrote:
You need to ventilate or heat it. Even spot heating with a light bulb will
help. You need to keep the temperature of your tools above dewpont.
Greg

ummm what's the temperature of "dewpoint" ?



For any given amount of moisture in the air, dew will form at a specific
temperature. The more moisture in the air, the higher the temperature where it
will begin to form. It varies directly with the ambient humidity.

Look at the weather report for your area on any given day and see what the
dewpoint is reported to be; it'll be different every day. Then keep your garage
warmer than that number.

As a pilot, I've always been leery of flying to an airport where the
temperature/dewpoint spread was two degrees or less; fog is almost always going
to be a consideration. It doesn't take much for a forecast to be off a couple
of degrees... just enough for the temp and the dewpoint to become one and the
same. The result for me: poor visibility. For you: rusty tools.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE


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David Efflandt
 
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On Mon, 30 May 2005 01:28:19 GMT, longshot wrote:

I don't park im my garage, i have too many tools in there. ) it's pretty
much ajuys ta shop & storage, besides, my car is a company truck. )


In the winter, the slab gets very cold. In spring the outside air gets
warm (which holds more moisture), but the garage and especially the slab
is still cooler (which holds less moisture). If the cool slab does not
make it condense (like on a cold drink), the temperature drop at night
can.
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Greg O
 
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wrote in message
...
longshot wrote:


Td = Ta/(1-Taln(R)/9621), approximately, with temperatures in absolute
Rankine degrees and RH R in fractional form. For instance, 70 F (Ta
= 70+460 = 530 R) air at 50% RH (R = 0.5) has Td = 530/(1-530ln(0.5)/9621)
= 510.5 R, ie Td = 510.5-460 = 50.5 F.

Nick


Thanks, that cleared it right up!
Greg


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Backlash
 
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The machining guys say that a fan to keep the air moving does the trick. I
have not tried it yet.

RJ

"longshot" wrote in message
news2tme.18796$Is4.4155@attbi_s21...
what causes condensation to build up in my garage? I live in midwest &
weather isn't extreme. The garage is not insulated or heated. I am tired
of the rust on my tools. anyone know how to cure it?

Thanks
Rob




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RP
 
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Backlash wrote:

The machining guys say that a fan to keep the air moving does the trick. I
have not tried it yet.


Unbelievable, a correct answer, and provided by people who may not even
know what dew point is.
If the tools are at the same temp as the adjacent air, then they will
never be below dew point . Toolboxes also work wonders.

hvacrmedic


"longshot" wrote in message
news2tme.18796$Is4.4155@attbi_s21...

what causes condensation to build up in my garage? I live in midwest &
weather isn't extreme. The garage is not insulated or heated. I am tired
of the rust on my tools. anyone know how to cure it?

Thanks
Rob








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Greg O wrote:

Td = Ta/(1-Taln(R)/9621), approximately, with temperatures in absolute
Rankine degrees...


R degrees = F degrees + 460.

and RH R in fractional form...


R = RH/100.

For instance, 70 F (Ta = 70+460 = 530 R) air at 50% RH (R = 0.5) has
Td = 530/(1-530ln(0.5)/9621) = 510.5 R, ie Td = 510.5-460 = 50.5 F.


In an amazing coincidence, F degrees = R degrees - 460... and "ln" is
the natural log, the inverse of the "e-to-the-x" key on a Casio fx-260
solar scientific calculator ($8.76 at Wal-Mart.)

Thanks, that cleared it right up!


You are welcome. Now what's the dew point above with 60% RH?

Nick

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Longshot
 
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i think i should just replace my rusted tools. )


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Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

wrote:


In an amazing coincidence, F degrees = R degrees - 460... and "ln" is
the natural log, the inverse of the "e-to-the-x" key on a Casio fx-260
solar scientific calculator ($8.76 at Wal-Mart.)

Thanks, that cleared it right up!


You are welcome. Now what's the dew point above with 60% RH?


You got me. 23?


Nonono. The dew point temp goes UP with increasing RH.

You DO have a Casio fx-260 solar scientific calculator, no?

Td = Ta/(1-Taln(R)/9621), approximately, with temperatures in absolute
Rankine degrees...


R degrees = F degrees + 460.

and RH R in fractional form...


R = RH/100.

For instance, 70 F (Ta = 70+460 = 530 R) air at 50% RH (R = 0.5) has
Td = 530/(1-530ln(0.5)/9621) = 510.5 R, ie Td = 510.5-460 = 50.5 F.


With RH = 60%, R = 0.6, so Td = 530/(1-530ln(0.6)/9621) = 515.5 R,
ie Td = 515.5-460 = 55.5 F.

Nick

PS: The price of a standard basement Humidex is $1095, installed.
Loren says they have a 1 year performance guarantee, ie you
can get your money back after 1 year if you don't like it. And
she says it works better in houses with AC. But moving air from
near the basement floor upstairs would be more efficient than
moving it outdoors and moving more outdoor humid air indoors,
in a house with AC.

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Stretch
 
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Nick,

The humidex is one of the dumbest ideas that I have seen in years. I
went to their web site and found it is a basement exhaust fan. It
sucks cool air conditioned air from the house, through the basement and
then blows it outside. Now the house is under a negative pressure and
outside air will come in to the house to replace the exhausted air.

If the humidity ratio of the outside air is lower than the humidity
ratio of the basement air, there is no point in getting the house air
involved, it would be better to blow basement air outside to be
replaced with dry air from outside. You may as well run the AC with the
windows open. Or run the heat in the winter with the windows open.

If the humidity ratio of the outside air is higher than the basement or
crawlspace air, you are adding a lot of moisture to the house and
adding load to the AC system, increasing electric bills in the process.
You could start growing mold in the house. The Humidex just moves the
problem from the basement to the house. Bad Idea.

Buy a dehumidifier instead. In humid climates the Humidex is a
disaster about to happen. In dry climate areas, it is just a waste of
money.


Stretch



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Stretch wrote:

The humidex is one of the dumbest ideas that I have seen in years.


Dumber than a dehumidifier that uses lots of electrical energy?

I went to their web site and found it is a basement exhaust fan...


It sucks up basement air from near the floor and exhausts it
from the house when the basement air exceeds, say, 60% RH.

It sucks cool air conditioned air from the house...


If the house is air-conditioned.

through the basement and then blows it outside. Now the house is under
a negative pressure and outside air will come in to the house to replace
the exhausted air.


Yes.

If the humidity ratio of the outside air is lower than the humidity
ratio of the basement air, there is no point in getting the house air
involved, it would be better to blow basement air outside to be
replaced with dry air from outside.


Sure, if the house is being heated or air-conditioned.

You may as well run the AC with the windows open. Or run the heat in
the winter with the windows open.


Does the Humidex add more than 5 cents/pint to AC and heating bills?
That depends on the weather. Moving basement air upstairs would use
less energy in a house with AC. A dehumidifier would use more, since
it adds to the AC load.

A little extra ventilation as needed isn't so bad in wintertime. Moving
cold air in from a basement window seems better than moving warm air
down from upstairs. It might come in through a concentric duct inside
the exhaust duct. Moving basement air out through an air heater on a
south wall and back to the basement after condensation (with an airflow
high enough to avoid freezing) could use less energy than ventilation.

My newish Kenmore dehumidifier acts like a heat pump with a 1.6 COP, ie
for every kWh of electricity consumed it condenses 2.047 pounds of water,
which makes 0.6 kWh (2047 Btu) of sensible heat. Condensing a pound of
vapor requires 1/2.047 = 0.4885 kWh worth 4.9 cents at 10 cents/kWh. If
1 kWh consumed offsets 1.6 kWh of electric resistance heat in winter, the
net energy profit for removing a pound of water vapor with a dehumidifier
is 0.6/2 = 0.3 kWh. If the house has a heat pump or gas or oil heat,
the "profit" is likely a net loss.

NREL says the outdoor humidity ratio wo = 0.0025 pounds of water per
pound of dry air on an average 30 F January day near Phila. Indoor air
at 70 F and 60% RH has wi = 0.009476, so removing a pound of water by
ventilation requires moving 1/(wi-wo) = 143 pounds of fresh air through
the house. Warming it from 30 to 70 F requires 0.24x143(70-30) = 1376 Btu,
ie 0.4 kWh. A 2470 cfm 90 W fan can move 143 pounds in 143/(2470x0.075)
= 0.77 minutes, consuming 90x0.77/60 = 0.001 Wh. So winter ventilation
uses less electricity than the dehumidifier, but there's no desirable
heat pump effect.

If the humidity ratio of the outside air is higher than the basement or
crawlspace air, you are adding a lot of moisture to the house and
adding load to the AC system, increasing electric bills in the process.
You could start growing mold in the house. The Humidex just moves the
problem from the basement to the house. Bad Idea.


Mold seems unlikely to me, if the AC works and the Humidex shuts off when
the basement RH drops to 60%.

Buy a dehumidifier instead.


Maybe, in wintertime. But most houses don't need dehumidification then.

In humid climates the Humidex is a disaster about to happen.


That's a concern, in a house without AC. I can picture the Humidex pumping
humid outdoor air into a basement with a cold slab that keeps condensing
water out of the air until the slab warms to the dewpoint, when condensation
would stop, but that might take a long time and make a big pool of water
which doesn't disappear until winter. IMO, these things could use better
controls, at least, and more competition, in light of their price.

Nick

Herbach and Rademan (800) 848-8001 http://www.herbach.com sell a nice
$4.95 Navy surplus humidistat, their item number TM89HVC5203, with a
20-80% range, a 3-6% differential, and a 7.5A 125V switch that can be
wired to open or close on humidity rise...
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