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  #1   Report Post  
martin
 
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Default Electrical wiring question

current setup

Bathroom distribution:

2 breakers : 1-15A GFI, 1-15A, 1 pole duplex .
2 wires from breakers, 1-2wire, 1-3wire

2 wire cable
- connected to A of 15A duplex breaker
- running to GFI receptacle

3 wire cable
- 1 hot connected to B of 15A duplex breaker
- runnig to lights, fan
- 1 hot connected to GFI breaker
- running to floor heating cables

- neutral connected to GFI breaker

is this setup OK? Does the GFI breaker neutal works ok if shared between 2
breakers?
Originally this setup was planned beacuse the receptacle is on the other
side of bathroom.
3 wire cable runs to wall with switches for lights, afan, and floor heating
thermostat. Will the circuit work, or is there a chance of GFI breaker
tripping?
If needed, I can rerun the cables, but beforte I get into it, I want to be
sure that it is required.

Thanks.

martin



  #2   Report Post  
toller
 
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Default


"martin" wrote in message
...
current setup

Bathroom distribution:

2 breakers : 1-15A GFI, 1-15A, 1 pole duplex .
2 wires from breakers, 1-2wire, 1-3wire

2 wire cable
- connected to A of 15A duplex breaker
- running to GFI receptacle

3 wire cable
- 1 hot connected to B of 15A duplex breaker
- runnig to lights, fan
- 1 hot connected to GFI breaker
- running to floor heating cables

- neutral connected to GFI breaker

is this setup OK? Does the GFI breaker neutal works ok if shared between
2 breakers?


No, it won't work; so if it does, it must not be wired that way. The 3wire
neutral must go only to the floor heating cable; the lights must use some
other neutral.
It is not necessarily unsafe, but odds are it is.
At an absolute minumum you must have net 0a going through every metal hole,
such as the one in the breaker box. Also, the two hots that share a neutral
must go to opposite legs. If you can do those, it may be safe, but it will
still be ugly. It will still be potentially dangerous because the next guy
will have no idea what you have done.

It should be wired so that the 2wire goes between the GFCI breaker and the
floor heating cable and the 240v breaker runs the light and outlet via the
3wire. And of course each neutral must go to the proper hot.

Originally this setup was planned beacuse the receptacle is on the other
side of bathroom.
3 wire cable runs to wall with switches for lights, afan, and floor
heating thermostat. Will the circuit work, or is there a chance of GFI
breaker tripping?
If needed, I can rerun the cables, but beforte I get into it, I want to be
sure that it is required.

Thanks.

martin





  #3   Report Post  
John Grabowski
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Martin, the bathroom receptacle(s) is required to have one dedicated 20 amp
circuit (#12 wire) feeding it as per the current National Electrical Code.
It won't pass inspection with a 15 amp feed.

You cannot use a three wire to feed two separate circuits and have one
protected by a GFCI circuit breaker. Because of the design of the GFCI and
how it operates it will trip each time there is current on both legs
concurrently. It just doesn't work with a shared neutral. You need to use a
two wire cable for the GFCI breaker protected circuit. You might get it to
work by using a GFCI device at the load end connecting one hot and the
neutral of the three conductor cable, but I suggest that you change to a two
wire to keep nuisance tripping to a minimum.

You should check the manufacturer's requirements for the floor heating and
save the instructions for the electrical inspector for verification.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv



"martin" wrote in message
...
current setup

Bathroom distribution:

2 breakers : 1-15A GFI, 1-15A, 1 pole duplex .
2 wires from breakers, 1-2wire, 1-3wire

2 wire cable
- connected to A of 15A duplex breaker
- running to GFI receptacle

3 wire cable
- 1 hot connected to B of 15A duplex breaker
- runnig to lights, fan
- 1 hot connected to GFI breaker
- running to floor heating cables

- neutral connected to GFI breaker

is this setup OK? Does the GFI breaker neutal works ok if shared between

2
breakers?
Originally this setup was planned beacuse the receptacle is on the other
side of bathroom.
3 wire cable runs to wall with switches for lights, afan, and floor

heating
thermostat. Will the circuit work, or is there a chance of GFI breaker
tripping?
If needed, I can rerun the cables, but beforte I get into it, I want to be
sure that it is required.

Thanks.

martin




  #4   Report Post  
RBM
 
Posts: n/a
Default

John, I think he may be in Canada, though he didn't specify
"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...
Martin, the bathroom receptacle(s) is required to have one dedicated 20
amp
circuit (#12 wire) feeding it as per the current National Electrical Code.
It won't pass inspection with a 15 amp feed.

You cannot use a three wire to feed two separate circuits and have one
protected by a GFCI circuit breaker. Because of the design of the GFCI
and
how it operates it will trip each time there is current on both legs
concurrently. It just doesn't work with a shared neutral. You need to use
a
two wire cable for the GFCI breaker protected circuit. You might get it
to
work by using a GFCI device at the load end connecting one hot and the
neutral of the three conductor cable, but I suggest that you change to a
two
wire to keep nuisance tripping to a minimum.

You should check the manufacturer's requirements for the floor heating and
save the instructions for the electrical inspector for verification.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv



"martin" wrote in message
...
current setup

Bathroom distribution:

2 breakers : 1-15A GFI, 1-15A, 1 pole duplex .
2 wires from breakers, 1-2wire, 1-3wire

2 wire cable
- connected to A of 15A duplex breaker
- running to GFI receptacle

3 wire cable
- 1 hot connected to B of 15A duplex breaker
- runnig to lights, fan
- 1 hot connected to GFI breaker
- running to floor heating cables

- neutral connected to GFI breaker

is this setup OK? Does the GFI breaker neutal works ok if shared between

2
breakers?
Originally this setup was planned beacuse the receptacle is on the other
side of bathroom.
3 wire cable runs to wall with switches for lights, afan, and floor

heating
thermostat. Will the circuit work, or is there a chance of GFI breaker
tripping?
If needed, I can rerun the cables, but beforte I get into it, I want to
be
sure that it is required.

Thanks.

martin






  #5   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , "toller" wrote:

"martin" wrote in message
m...
current setup

Bathroom distribution:

2 breakers : 1-15A GFI, 1-15A, 1 pole duplex .
2 wires from breakers, 1-2wire, 1-3wire

2 wire cable
- connected to A of 15A duplex breaker
- running to GFI receptacle

3 wire cable
- 1 hot connected to B of 15A duplex breaker
- runnig to lights, fan
- 1 hot connected to GFI breaker
- running to floor heating cables

- neutral connected to GFI breaker

is this setup OK? Does the GFI breaker neutal works ok if shared between
2 breakers?


No, it won't work; so if it does, it must not be wired that way. The 3wire
neutral must go only to the floor heating cable; the lights must use some
other neutral.


Wrong as usual, toller.

You did manage to get part of it right this time: the GFCI won't work with a
shared neutral. But there's no reason at all why he can't share a neutral
between the floor heating cable, and the lights.

It is not necessarily unsafe, but odds are it is.
At an absolute minumum you must have net 0a going through every metal hole,
such as the one in the breaker box. Also, the two hots that share a neutral
must go to opposite legs. If you can do those, it may be safe, but it will
still be ugly. It will still be potentially dangerous because the next guy
will have no idea what you have done.

It should be wired so that the 2wire goes between the GFCI breaker and the
floor heating cable and the 240v breaker runs the light and outlet via the
3wire. And of course each neutral must go to the proper hot.


Right here is another example of why you have NO BUSINESS giving anybody
electrical advice, and why I keep busting your chops for it: YOU'RE DANGEROUS.

He doesn't *have* a 240V breaker, idiot. He has a single-pole duplex breaker.
(Didn't you read?) If he wires the 3-wire cable as you suggest, to the breaker
he has, he's *guaranteed* to overload the neutral, and likely start a fire.



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?


  #6   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , "martin" wrote:
current setup

Bathroom distribution:

2 breakers : 1-15A GFI, 1-15A, 1 pole duplex .
2 wires from breakers, 1-2wire, 1-3wire

2 wire cable
- connected to A of 15A duplex breaker
- running to GFI receptacle

3 wire cable
- 1 hot connected to B of 15A duplex breaker
- runnig to lights, fan
- 1 hot connected to GFI breaker
- running to floor heating cables

- neutral connected to GFI breaker

is this setup OK?


Nope. Won't work. John Grabowski got it right in his post; toller (as usual)
got it wrong, and you're risking a fire if you follow his advice.

Does the GFI breaker neutal works ok if shared between 2
breakers?


Nope. Doesn't work at all.

Originally this setup was planned beacuse the receptacle is on the other
side of bathroom.
3 wire cable runs to wall with switches for lights, afan, and floor heating
thermostat. Will the circuit work, or is there a chance of GFI breaker
tripping?


Nope, won't work - GFCI is guaranteed to trip almost every time.

Now, you *could* get a 240V (two-pole) GFCI breaker, and use that for your
3-wire cable, but:
a) they're waaaay expensive; much cheaper to run new cable, and
b) you probably need to run new cable anyway, because you need 12ga copper for
the 20A circuit that is required by Code.

If needed, I can rerun the cables, but beforte I get into it, I want to be
sure that it is required.


Got the order of those two steps reversed, it seems to me. :-)

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
  #7   Report Post  
John Grabowski
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks RB. I didn't know. My answer above only applies in the USA.


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
John, I think he may be in Canada, though he didn't specify
"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...
Martin, the bathroom receptacle(s) is required to have one dedicated 20
amp
circuit (#12 wire) feeding it as per the current National Electrical

Code.
It won't pass inspection with a 15 amp feed.

You cannot use a three wire to feed two separate circuits and have one
protected by a GFCI circuit breaker. Because of the design of the GFCI
and
how it operates it will trip each time there is current on both legs
concurrently. It just doesn't work with a shared neutral. You need to

use
a
two wire cable for the GFCI breaker protected circuit. You might get it
to
work by using a GFCI device at the load end connecting one hot and the
neutral of the three conductor cable, but I suggest that you change to a
two
wire to keep nuisance tripping to a minimum.

You should check the manufacturer's requirements for the floor heating

and
save the instructions for the electrical inspector for verification.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv



"martin" wrote in message
...
current setup

Bathroom distribution:

2 breakers : 1-15A GFI, 1-15A, 1 pole duplex .
2 wires from breakers, 1-2wire, 1-3wire

2 wire cable
- connected to A of 15A duplex breaker
- running to GFI receptacle

3 wire cable
- 1 hot connected to B of 15A duplex breaker
- runnig to lights, fan
- 1 hot connected to GFI breaker
- running to floor heating cables

- neutral connected to GFI breaker

is this setup OK? Does the GFI breaker neutal works ok if shared

between
2
breakers?
Originally this setup was planned beacuse the receptacle is on the

other
side of bathroom.
3 wire cable runs to wall with switches for lights, afan, and floor

heating
thermostat. Will the circuit work, or is there a chance of GFI breaker
tripping?
If needed, I can rerun the cables, but beforte I get into it, I want to
be
sure that it is required.

Thanks.

martin







  #8   Report Post  
Chris Lewis
 
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Default

According to John Grabowski :
Thanks RB. I didn't know. My answer above only applies in the USA.


The 20A required for bathroom comment applies to the USA only.

The comments about the GFCI not working applies in both places ;-)
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
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