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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
All,
I recently purchased a 20 Gallon Hot Water Heater (120V) 2000 Total Watts...... The National Wiring Code stated that it needs a 25 Amp/10 Gauge Wire....... Doing the Math (WATTS = VOLTS * AMPS) 2400 WATTS = 120 VOLTS * 20 AMP (12 Guage Wire) To my understanding 2400 WATTS is more then the Water Heater can pull Could someone elaborate on why National Wiring Code would not allow me to use a 12 Guage Wire / 20 Amp Breaker? Thanks |
#2
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In the USA the National Electric Code allows 80 percent of the capacity of
the conductor which translates into 12 ga. is good for 16 amps or less "Burhans" wrote in message ... All, I recently purchased a 20 Gallon Hot Water Heater (120V) 2000 Total Watts...... The National Wiring Code stated that it needs a 25 Amp/10 Gauge Wire....... Doing the Math (WATTS = VOLTS * AMPS) 2400 WATTS = 120 VOLTS * 20 AMP (12 Guage Wire) To my understanding 2400 WATTS is more then the Water Heater can pull Could someone elaborate on why National Wiring Code would not allow me to use a 12 Guage Wire / 20 Amp Breaker? Thanks |
#3
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2000w is 16.7a. Since the circuit cannot carry more than 80% of maximum
capacity, you would need a 21a circuit. Since there is no such thing as a 21a circuit, you need the next larger size. Even if you could get by with #12, why would you want to? #10 will give much less voltage drop and the price isn't all that much different. |
#4
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In article , "Burhans" wrote:
All, I recently purchased a 20 Gallon Hot Water Heater (120V) 2000 Total Watts...... The National Wiring Code stated that it needs a 25 Amp/10 Gauge Wire....... [snip] Could someone elaborate on why National Wiring Code would not allow me to use a 12 Guage Wire / 20 Amp Breaker? Because a water heater is a "continuous load" as defined by the Code, and continuous loads are not permitted to exceed 80% of the rated ampacity of the circuit. For a 20A circuit, that is a maximum continuous load of 16A. Your water heater will pull 2000W / 120V = 16.67A, which is 83.3% of the ampacity of a 20A circuit. Thus you need at minimum 25A and 10ga wire. But don't knock yourself out trying to find a 25A breaker - you can run 30A on 10ga wire, too, and it will be much easier to find a 20A breaker. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
#5
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What do you mean "Much Less Voltage Drop using a #10 opposed to a #12" ?
What would be the side affect for Hooking a #12 Wire pulling 16.7 Amps? Could someone please explain "Continuous Load" and why a Hot Water Heater falls into this catogory. Would the Hot Water heater always be pulling the full 2000 Watts or does it only pull 2000 Watts on the highest temp? I have no problem running #10 Wire but I just ran #12 for a smaller Hot Water Heater and needed to return it because it was too small for its application (Washer/Dryer Room). Thanks "toller" wrote in message ... 2000w is 16.7a. Since the circuit cannot carry more than 80% of maximum capacity, you would need a 21a circuit. Since there is no such thing as a 21a circuit, you need the next larger size. Even if you could get by with #12, why would you want to? #10 will give much less voltage drop and the price isn't all that much different. |
#6
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In article , "Burhans" wrote:
What do you mean "Much Less Voltage Drop using a #10 opposed to a #12" ? The thicker the conductor, the less its resistance to current, and hence the less the voltage will drop due to the resistance of the conductor -- but #12 wire has a resistance of only two ohms per thousand feet to begin with. To state that #10 wire has "much less voltage drop" in your application overstates the case a bit. In any event, you need a 25A circuit and hence #10 wire at a minimum anyway, so the difference in voltage drop between #12 and #10 is utterly irrelevant. What would be the side affect for Hooking a #12 Wire pulling 16.7 Amps? Possibly a fire. That's why the Code doesn't permit it. Could someone please explain "Continuous Load" and why a Hot Water Heater falls into this catogory. "Continuous load: a load where the maximum current is expected to continue for three hours or more." Most of the time, the conditions of use of a water heater would *not* fall into this category, but it certainly could. Would the Hot Water heater always be pulling the full 2000 Watts or does it only pull 2000 Watts on the highest temp? The heating element is either on or off. I have no problem running #10 Wire but I just ran #12 for a smaller Hot Water Heater and needed to return it because it was too small for its application (Washer/Dryer Room). Well, then, run the #10. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
#7
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Just my opinion and I'm not looking to start a "war", but American train of
thought is go big or go home. We always overdo things. A lot of European influence is now invading American industry. Industries are now seeing that it is cheaper to buy foreign because they don't "Over Engineer" things(motors being a prime example). If you need a motor to do a certain amount of work and carry X amount of amps to do it, then that is what you buy. That is what it is rated for and guarenteed to do. American made products tell you this is what it can do, but put in a buffer in case you overdo it. Probably because of our legal system more than anything else. And Yes, if you don't follow the NEC then you will have problems with the insurance companies. It's digusting, but that's what we as Americans have asked for! Can it handle it? YES! Will the insurance companies pay the claim if there is a fire? Depends on how good a lawyer you have. And by the way I still drive a Ford!!! Haven't given in to foreign ......YET! "Burhans" wrote in message ... All, I recently purchased a 20 Gallon Hot Water Heater (120V) 2000 Total Watts...... The National Wiring Code stated that it needs a 25 Amp/10 Gauge Wire....... Doing the Math (WATTS = VOLTS * AMPS) 2400 WATTS = 120 VOLTS * 20 AMP (12 Guage Wire) To my understanding 2400 WATTS is more then the Water Heater can pull Could someone elaborate on why National Wiring Code would not allow me to use a 12 Guage Wire / 20 Amp Breaker? Thanks |
#8
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"Burhans" wrote in message ... What do you mean "Much Less Voltage Drop using a #10 opposed to a #12" ? If you are not familiar with the concept of voltage drop, you probably should not be doing your own wiring; it is pretty basic. http://www.electrician.com/vd_calculator.html Wire has resistance. If you try to cram too much currant down a too long wire, the heater will not get all the power it is supposed to get. The heater will not heat as well, yet you will still be paying for all the power. Code allows 3% voltage drop, though that is really meant for things that are voltage sensitive; which a heater is not. For a heater it is just a matter of efficiency. Heaters are usually 240v because it wastes less power for a given size of wire. What would be the side affect for Hooking a #12 Wire pulling 16.7 Amps? The main thing is that the wire would get hot, and possibly start a fire. Not likely with such a small overload, but when it happens the insurance company is going to point out that the fire was caused by improper (and presumably uninspected) wiring. I am not a lawyer, but it seems like something best avoided. Could someone please explain "Continuous Load" and why a Hot Water Heater falls into this catogory. Would the Hot Water heater always be pulling the full 2000 Watts or does it only pull 2000 Watts on the highest temp? The setting affects how long the heater is on. It is always pulling 2000w. It is like your toaster; it is on or it isn't on; darker toast just takes longer. I have no problem running #10 Wire but I just ran #12 for a smaller Hot Water Heater and needed to return it because it was too small for its application (Washer/Dryer Room). Good solution would be to get a 240v heater and use the #12 wire. It is good for maybe 3500w, yet will have less voltage drop. Thanks "toller" wrote in message ... 2000w is 16.7a. Since the circuit cannot carry more than 80% of maximum capacity, you would need a 21a circuit. Since there is no such thing as a 21a circuit, you need the next larger size. Even if you could get by with #12, why would you want to? #10 will give much less voltage drop and the price isn't all that much different. |
#9
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toller wrote:
...Since the circuit cannot carry more than 80% of maximum capacity... It seems mentally unhealthy to imagine the NEC is based solely on physical reality, vs the interests of wire manufacturers and insurance companies :-) The fusing current for 12 ga wire is 235 amps. Nick |
#11
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Well I caved - With a New Born Baby only days away and the reality that
Insurance not covering my claim if there was a fire - I splurged the extra money and got 100Ft of 10/2 w Ground Copper Wire.... Strangly enough the Outdoor quality was cheaper then the indoor...... Go Figure The Wire is run and connected but I have not flipped on the breaker to the Hot Water Heater yet. My plumbing skills have been tested and a small leak has developed on the Treaded Portion of the Hot Water Heater.... Of course I did not let the thread seal cure for 48 Hrs... I am hoping giving it time to seal will do the trick... Anyone have any view on Thread Seal and How long it usually takes to seal the thread? Thanks you all for the input "Burhans" wrote in message ... All, I recently purchased a 20 Gallon Hot Water Heater (120V) 2000 Total Watts...... The National Wiring Code stated that it needs a 25 Amp/10 Gauge Wire....... Doing the Math (WATTS = VOLTS * AMPS) 2400 WATTS = 120 VOLTS * 20 AMP (12 Guage Wire) To my understanding 2400 WATTS is more then the Water Heater can pull Could someone elaborate on why National Wiring Code would not allow me to use a 12 Guage Wire / 20 Amp Breaker? Thanks |
#12
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"Burhans" wrote in message ... Well I caved - With a New Born Baby only days away and the reality that Insurance not covering my claim if there was a fire - I splurged the extra money and got 100Ft of 10/2 w Ground Copper Wire.... Strangly enough the Outdoor quality was cheaper then the indoor...... Go Figure You did the right thing The Wire is run and connected but I have not flipped on the breaker to the Hot Water Heater yet. My plumbing skills have been tested and a small leak has developed on the Treaded Portion of the Hot Water Heater.... Of course I did not let the thread seal cure for 48 Hrs... I am hoping giving it time to seal will do the trick... Anyone have any view on Thread Seal and How long it usually takes to seal the thread? Teflon tape... Only time I ever used pipe dope (if that is what you mean) was on gas, and I don't remember it needing to cure. (At least I didn't do it, and it didn't leak.) Thanks you all for the input "Burhans" wrote in message ... All, I recently purchased a 20 Gallon Hot Water Heater (120V) 2000 Total Watts...... The National Wiring Code stated that it needs a 25 Amp/10 Gauge Wire....... Doing the Math (WATTS = VOLTS * AMPS) 2400 WATTS = 120 VOLTS * 20 AMP (12 Guage Wire) To my understanding 2400 WATTS is more then the Water Heater can pull Could someone elaborate on why National Wiring Code would not allow me to use a 12 Guage Wire / 20 Amp Breaker? Thanks |
#13
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The National Electric Code is written by the NFPA. That stands for the
NATIONAL FIRE PROTECTION ASSOCIATION. They write other fire related codes as well. Most of the articles in that code were written because someone died. It is the code so someone does not get hurt or killed. stretch |
#14
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In article , "Burhans" wrote:
Well I caved - With a New Born Baby only days away and the reality that Insurance not covering my claim if there was a fire - I splurged the extra money and got 100Ft of 10/2 w Ground Copper Wire.... Strangly enough the Outdoor quality was cheaper then the indoor...... Go Figure I'm guessing you compared the price of 100' of UF to 250' of NM... The Wire is run and connected but I have not flipped on the breaker to the Hot Water Heater yet. My plumbing skills have been tested and a small leak has developed on the Treaded Portion of the Hot Water Heater.... Of course I did not let the thread seal cure for 48 Hrs... I am hoping giving it time to seal will do the trick... Anyone have any view on Thread Seal and How long it usually takes to seal the thread? If it's leaking, that means you didn't tighten the joint enough. Doesn't matter how long you wait, it isn't going to seal. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
#15
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
replying to Burhans, albert wrote:
Yes that's correct about the NEC code. If your installation going to be inspected, technically a 20 amp breaker using 12 ga. wire can be rejected. and you would need to find a 26 amp breaker, using 10 gauge wire. I'm also installing a Rheem 20 gallon 120V 2000 watt water heater. People ask why not a 240?, which are more common. The reason is I only have 120 Vac service for a motorhome where the 20 gallon (point of use) water heater being installed. No 240 service means no 240 equipment, water heaters, stoves, driers, welders, etc. However problems occur trying to find a 25 amp circuit breaker. Hardware stores don't usually carry them. If they do have one or two such as at Home Depot they may only fit certain types of service panels. My RV service panel accepts a max. of 9 (one inch wide) breakers (including the main) and uses standard square-d single pole breakers for the home (1 inch wide). Most of it's breakers in the rv load center are dual breakers.that save space. I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the right type to fit my load center. A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet) If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker? I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected. PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground. Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ter-11154-.htm |
#16
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
replying to Burhans, albert wrote:
I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the right type to fit my load center. A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet) If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker? I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected. PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground. Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ter-11154-.htm |
#17
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:15 GMT, albert
m wrote: replying to Burhans, albert wrote: Yes that's correct about the NEC code. If your installation going to be inspected, technically a 20 amp breaker using 12 ga. wire can be rejected. and you would need to find a 26 amp breaker, using 10 gauge wire. I'm also installing a Rheem 20 gallon 120V 2000 watt water heater. People ask why not a 240?, which are more common. The reason is I only have 120 Vac service for a motorhome where the 20 gallon (point of use) water heater being installed. No 240 service means no 240 equipment, water heaters, stoves, driers, welders, etc. However problems occur trying to find a 25 amp circuit breaker. Hardware stores don't usually carry them. If they do have one or two such as at Home Depot they may only fit certain types of service panels. My RV service panel accepts a max. of 9 (one inch wide) breakers (including the main) and uses standard square-d single pole breakers for the home (1 inch wide). Most of it's breakers in the rv load center are dual breakers.that save space. I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the right type to fit my load center. A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet) If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker? No such animal - at least not for a Square D QO. Never seen one for ANY panel. Mabee try putting in a single 25 in place of one of the 15s that is not one of the "most" that are doubles. And "over-fusing" a water heater is not a problem as long as you use the right wire. You are fusing for the WIRE, not the load. I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected. PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground. Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code. Your only option is a 1500 watt. Section 422-14 of the National Electric Code reads: “b) Storage type water heaters. All fixed storage type water heaters having a capacity of 120 gallons or less shall have a branch – circuit rating NOT LESS THAN 125 percent of the nameplate rating of the water heater.” |
#18
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
In Clare Snyder writes:
[snip] Your only option is a 1500 watt. Section 422-14 of the National Electric Code reads: b) Storage type water heaters. All fixed storage type water heaters having a capacity of 120 gallons or less shall have a branch circuit rating NOT LESS THAN 125 percent of the nameplate rating of the water heater. Just as a related explanation: In general, if you're using a "continuous load", that is, one that'll stay at maximum rating for over (ummmmm.... 15? minutes at a clip?), you're supposed to de-rate the ampacity (current carrying rating) of the wiring. Reason is that the rating is based in large part on the heating the wiring goes through. -- __________________________________________________ ___ Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded] |
#19
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:16 GMT, albert
m wrote: replying to Burhans, albert wrote: I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the right type to fit my load center. A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet) If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker? I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected. PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground. Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code. The only code issue is that the wire and the equipment is adequately protected. As long as you are using 10 gauge wire you would be OK with a 20, 25 or 30a breaker. The continuous load language and the word "ampacity" itself refers to the wire, not the breaker. If your voltage is nominal or lower (120 or less) A 20 should work fine on a 2000 w element. That is 16.66 amps and close enough for government work for an 80% breaker but I would still spend the extra buck for 10 ga wire.. |
#20
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 11:44:19 PM UTC-5, albert wrote:
replying to Burhans, albert wrote: Yes that's correct about the NEC code. If your installation going to be inspected, technically a 20 amp breaker using 12 ga. wire can be rejected. and you would need to find a 26 amp breaker, using 10 gauge wire. I think you mean 25A I'm also installing a Rheem 20 gallon 120V 2000 watt water heater. People ask why not a 240?, which are more common. The reason is I only have 120 Vac service for a motorhome where the 20 gallon (point of use) water heater being installed. No 240 service means no 240 equipment, water heaters, stoves, driers, welders, etc. However problems occur trying to find a 25 amp circuit breaker. Hardware stores don't usually carry them. If they do have one or two such as at Home Depot they may only fit certain types of service panels. My RV service panel accepts a max. of 9 (one inch wide) breakers (including the main) and uses standard square-d single pole breakers for the home (1 inch wide). Most of it's breakers in the rv load center are dual breakers.that save space. I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the right type to fit my load center. A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet) The breaker is rated to the wire. What happens if you plug an overload of any size into any of the common 15A or 20A receptacles you have? If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker? I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral and ground. Then you have an Edison circuit and you need to have a dual pole breaker, it's not an option, unless maybe you can tie the handles together, not sure if that's code compliant though. But if it's a dual pole to support the wire choice you've made, then good luck finding one that's 25/20, which is what you'd need for the WH and the receptacle. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected. PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground. Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ter-11154-.htm |
#21
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 1:13:47 AM UTC-5, danny burstein wrote:
In Clare Snyder writes: [snip] Your only option is a 1500 watt. Section 422-14 of the National Electric Code reads: b) Storage type water heaters. All fixed storage type water heaters having a capacity of 120 gallons or less shall have a branch circuit rating NOT LESS THAN 125 percent of the nameplate rating of the water heater. Just as a related explanation: In general, if you're using a "continuous load", that is, one that'll stay at maximum rating for over (ummmmm.... 15? minutes at a clip?), you're supposed to de-rate the ampacity (current carrying rating) of the wiring. Continuous is defined in the code as an expected load over 3 hours. If the code didn't address water heaters separately and essentially treat his 20 gal WH as a continuous load, I would argue that it isn't a continuous load at all. I guess the issue could be that someone could leave the hot water faucet open, running, which would make it into a continuous load. But when talking about continuous the code says "expected", which leaves it open to interpretation. But the WH is covered separately, so it doesn't matter. Reason is that the rating is based in large part on the heating the wiring goes through. -- __________________________________________________ ___ Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded] |
#22
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 11:24:25 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:16 GMT, albert m wrote: replying to Burhans, albert wrote: I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the right type to fit my load center. A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet) If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker? I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected. PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground. Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code. The only code issue is that the wire and the equipment is adequately protected. As long as you are using 10 gauge wire you would be OK with a 20, 25 or 30a breaker. The continuous load language and the word "ampacity" itself refers to the wire, not the breaker. If your voltage is nominal or lower (120 or less) A 20 should work fine on a 2000 w element. That is 16.66 amps and close enough for government work for an 80% breaker Especially considering that you'd have to either have some pathological usage of that water heater or leave the hot water faucet running for 3 hours to get to a continuous load to begin with. |
#23
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water heaters, was: Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
In trader_4 writes:
Continuous is defined in the code as an expected load over 3 hours. If the code didn't address water heaters separately and essentially treat his 20 gal WH as a continuous load, I would argue that it isn't a continuous load at all. au contrare. If the water heater is starting with a full tank of cold water, hmm, let's see... 20 gallons (yeah, I'll stick with US units) weighs about 160 pounds. If we take a value of, oh, fifty degrees F for the incoming cold water, and want to raise it to 125F, that's a 75 degree change 160 pounds [enter], 75 [times] = 12,000 BTUs. conversion of watts - BTU is about 3.5 12,000 [enter], 3.5 [divide] = 3,400 watt-hours He's got a 2,000 watt heater element, so that's about one and 3/4 hours. So yeah, if I were designing specs (or insalling the wiring, etc.) for a water heater, then I'd do the derating to 80 percent. (Of course, that's a non issue since Code does, in fact, have a specific entry for water heaters. Thanks for that pointer. It had washed out of my memory). -- __________________________________________________ ___ Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded] |
#24
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 08:50:05 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote: On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 11:24:25 AM UTC-5, wrote: On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:16 GMT, albert m wrote: replying to Burhans, albert wrote: I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the right type to fit my load center. A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet) If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker? I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected. PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground. Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code. The only code issue is that the wire and the equipment is adequately protected. As long as you are using 10 gauge wire you would be OK with a 20, 25 or 30a breaker. The continuous load language and the word "ampacity" itself refers to the wire, not the breaker. If your voltage is nominal or lower (120 or less) A 20 should work fine on a 2000 w element. That is 16.66 amps and close enough for government work for an 80% breaker Especially considering that you'd have to either have some pathological usage of that water heater or leave the hot water faucet running for 3 hours to get to a continuous load to begin with. It doesn't matter. The 80% rule apples to any single piece of equipment on a branch circuit, continuous or not. That is the wire, not the breaker. Since 2000w is 16.66a I doubt most inspectors would say a word about it being on a 20a breaker. More would be likely to complain about the 12 gauge wire tho. In my opinion it is not really an issue but it is technically illegal. That would be exacerbated by higher than nominal voltage but in my experience mobile home parks run low. They were typically wired before electrical demands are as high as they are now. I have seen some with a calculated service feeder demand per lot was 50a or less even though the service at the lot might be 100a, up from the original 60a post. |
#25
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water heaters, was: Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 12:18:01 PM UTC-5, danny burstein wrote:
In trader_4 writes: Continuous is defined in the code as an expected load over 3 hours. If the code didn't address water heaters separately and essentially treat his 20 gal WH as a continuous load, I would argue that it isn't a continuous load at all. au contrare. If the water heater is starting with a full tank of cold water, hmm, let's see... 20 gallons (yeah, I'll stick with US units) weighs about 160 pounds. If we take a value of, oh, fifty degrees F for the incoming cold water, and want to raise it to 125F, that's a 75 degree change 160 pounds [enter], 75 [times] = 12,000 BTUs. conversion of watts - BTU is about 3.5 12,000 [enter], 3.5 [divide] = 3,400 watt-hours He's got a 2,000 watt heater element, so that's about one and 3/4 hours. So yeah, if I were designing specs (or insalling the wiring, etc.) for a water heater, then I'd do the derating to 80 percent. You can do whatever you want, but code says a continuous load is 3 hours plus. That is the case for continuous loads, but they spec water heaters separately, which I previously cited. I'd sleep well knowing the physics and using a 20 amp breaker, regardless of the code. Even applying the 80 percent rule, a 20 amp circuit is good to 16 amp and this is 16.6 and that's if it runs continuously. BFD. (Of course, that's a non issue since Code does, in fact, have a specific entry for water heaters. Thanks for that pointer. It had washed out of my memory). -- __________________________________________________ ___ Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded] |
#26
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 12:28:07 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 08:50:05 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 11:24:25 AM UTC-5, wrote: On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:16 GMT, albert m wrote: replying to Burhans, albert wrote: I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the right type to fit my load center. A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet) If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker? I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected. PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground. Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code. The only code issue is that the wire and the equipment is adequately protected. As long as you are using 10 gauge wire you would be OK with a 20, 25 or 30a breaker. The continuous load language and the word "ampacity" itself refers to the wire, not the breaker. If your voltage is nominal or lower (120 or less) A 20 should work fine on a 2000 w element. That is 16.66 amps and close enough for government work for an 80% breaker Especially considering that you'd have to either have some pathological usage of that water heater or leave the hot water faucet running for 3 hours to get to a continuous load to begin with. It doesn't matter. The 80% rule apples to any single piece of equipment on a branch circuit, continuous or not. That is the wire, not the breaker. Well, now I'm confused. If it applies to all, then why is there anything special about continuous loads? I thought the 80% rule applied only to continuous loads. |
#27
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 06:56:00 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote: On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 12:28:07 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 08:50:05 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 11:24:25 AM UTC-5, wrote: On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:16 GMT, albert m wrote: replying to Burhans, albert wrote: I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the right type to fit my load center. A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet) If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker? I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected. PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground. Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code. The only code issue is that the wire and the equipment is adequately protected. As long as you are using 10 gauge wire you would be OK with a 20, 25 or 30a breaker. The continuous load language and the word "ampacity" itself refers to the wire, not the breaker. If your voltage is nominal or lower (120 or less) A 20 should work fine on a 2000 w element. That is 16.66 amps and close enough for government work for an 80% breaker Especially considering that you'd have to either have some pathological usage of that water heater or leave the hot water faucet running for 3 hours to get to a continuous load to begin with. It doesn't matter. The 80% rule apples to any single piece of equipment on a branch circuit, continuous or not. That is the wire, not the breaker. Well, now I'm confused. If it applies to all, then why is there anything special about continuous loads? I thought the 80% rule applied only to continuous loads. You are correct, I was thinking this would be cord and plug connected. (120v) |
#28
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 2:01:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 06:56:00 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 12:28:07 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 08:50:05 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 11:24:25 AM UTC-5, wrote: On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:16 GMT, albert m wrote: replying to Burhans, albert wrote: I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the right type to fit my load center. A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet) If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker? I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected. PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground. Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code. The only code issue is that the wire and the equipment is adequately protected. As long as you are using 10 gauge wire you would be OK with a 20, 25 or 30a breaker. The continuous load language and the word "ampacity" itself refers to the wire, not the breaker. If your voltage is nominal or lower (120 or less) A 20 should work fine on a 2000 w element. That is 16.66 amps and close enough for government work for an 80% breaker Especially considering that you'd have to either have some pathological usage of that water heater or leave the hot water faucet running for 3 hours to get to a continuous load to begin with. It doesn't matter. The 80% rule apples to any single piece of equipment on a branch circuit, continuous or not. That is the wire, not the breaker. Well, now I'm confused. If it applies to all, then why is there anything special about continuous loads? I thought the 80% rule applied only to continuous loads. You are correct, I was thinking this would be cord and plug connected. (120v) I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response, did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors? He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit. So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole, then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole, then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a 25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple things can get complicated. |
#29
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:
I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected. PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground. I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response, did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors? He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit. So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole, then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole, then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a 25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple things can get complicated. Four conductors. Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground. |
#30
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
In Dean Hoffman writes:
Four conductors. Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground. Mena, mena, tekel, upharsin. -- __________________________________________________ ___ Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded] |
#31
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
On 12/16/18 3:49 PM, danny burstein wrote:
In Dean Hoffman writes: Four conductors. Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground. Mena, mena, tekel, upharsin. I had to look that up. It got a Babylonian king's attention. |
#32
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 4:33:17 PM UTC-5, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote: I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected. PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground. I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response, did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors? He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit. So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole, then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole, then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a 25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple things can get complicated. Four conductors. Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground. I was talking about current carrying conductors, though I didn't specifically say that. Regardless, the problem I presented is valid. |
#33
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 13:16:55 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote: On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 2:01:31 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 06:56:00 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 12:28:07 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 08:50:05 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 11:24:25 AM UTC-5, wrote: On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:16 GMT, albert m wrote: replying to Burhans, albert wrote: I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the right type to fit my load center. A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet) If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker? I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected. PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground. Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code. The only code issue is that the wire and the equipment is adequately protected. As long as you are using 10 gauge wire you would be OK with a 20, 25 or 30a breaker. The continuous load language and the word "ampacity" itself refers to the wire, not the breaker. If your voltage is nominal or lower (120 or less) A 20 should work fine on a 2000 w element. That is 16.66 amps and close enough for government work for an 80% breaker Especially considering that you'd have to either have some pathological usage of that water heater or leave the hot water faucet running for 3 hours to get to a continuous load to begin with. It doesn't matter. The 80% rule apples to any single piece of equipment on a branch circuit, continuous or not. That is the wire, not the breaker. Well, now I'm confused. If it applies to all, then why is there anything special about continuous loads? I thought the 80% rule applied only to continuous loads. You are correct, I was thinking this would be cord and plug connected. (120v) I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response, did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors? He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit. So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole, then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole, then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a 25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple things can get complicated. Is one of the conductors green? Then 3 is a regular 5-20 plug. Why would you have an edison (multiwire) circuit for a water heater with a single element and no other load? |
#34
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote: On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote: I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected. PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground. I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response, did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors? He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit. So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole, then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole, then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a 25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple things can get complicated. Four conductors. Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground. What is he going to connect the 4th wire to? This is a 120v water heater. A hot, a neutral and a ground. |
#35
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
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#36
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman wrote: On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote: I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected. PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground. I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response, did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors? He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit. So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole, then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole, then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a 25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple things can get complicated. Four conductors. Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground. What is he going to connect the 4th wire to? This is a 120v water heater. A hot, a neutral and a ground. I guess you didn't read his post or the couple where I commented on it. He said he was installing one 20A receptacle too. That lead to the problems with breaker sizing an Edison circuit to support both. And now that I think about it, maybe there is a more fundamental problem? Can you use an Edison circuit to support both a hard wired load like a water heater and a receptacle? I've only seen them used for receptacles. |
#37
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 12:58:35 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 13:16:55 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 2:01:31 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 06:56:00 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 12:28:07 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 08:50:05 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 11:24:25 AM UTC-5, wrote: On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:16 GMT, albert m wrote: replying to Burhans, albert wrote: I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the right type to fit my load center. A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet) If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker? I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected. PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground. Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code. The only code issue is that the wire and the equipment is adequately protected. As long as you are using 10 gauge wire you would be OK with a 20, 25 or 30a breaker. The continuous load language and the word "ampacity" itself refers to the wire, not the breaker. If your voltage is nominal or lower (120 or less) A 20 should work fine on a 2000 w element. That is 16.66 amps and close enough for government work for an 80% breaker Especially considering that you'd have to either have some pathological usage of that water heater or leave the hot water faucet running for 3 hours to get to a continuous load to begin with. It doesn't matter. The 80% rule apples to any single piece of equipment on a branch circuit, continuous or not. That is the wire, not the breaker. Well, now I'm confused. If it applies to all, then why is there anything special about continuous loads? I thought the 80% rule applied only to continuous loads. You are correct, I was thinking this would be cord and plug connected. (120v) I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response, did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors? He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit. So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole, then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole, then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a 25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple things can get complicated. Is one of the conductors green? Then 3 is a regular 5-20 plug. Why would you have an edison (multiwire) circuit for a water heater with a single element and no other load? I guess you missed this: "He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle." |
#38
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 04:36:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote: On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-5, wrote: On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman wrote: On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote: I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected. PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground. I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response, did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors? He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit. So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole, then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole, then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a 25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple things can get complicated. Four conductors. Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground. What is he going to connect the 4th wire to? This is a 120v water heater. A hot, a neutral and a ground. I guess you didn't read his post or the couple where I commented on it. He said he was installing one 20A receptacle too. That lead to the problems with breaker sizing an Edison circuit to support both. And now that I think about it, maybe there is a more fundamental problem? Can you use an Edison circuit to support both a hard wired load like a water heater and a receptacle? I've only seen them used for receptacles. There is nothing wrong with Multiwire circuits feeding one receptacle and one piece of fixed in place equipment. He can also protect it with a handle tied pair of breakers and they do not have to be the same size. As has been stated several times a 20a breaker would work here. I would not have a serious problem with 12ga wire but he already bought the 10. What is he using for a disconnect if this is not cord and plug? |
#39
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
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#40
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Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater
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