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Burhans
 
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Default Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater

All,
I recently purchased a 20 Gallon Hot Water Heater (120V) 2000 Total
Watts...... The National Wiring Code stated that it needs a 25 Amp/10 Gauge
Wire.......

Doing the Math (WATTS = VOLTS * AMPS)

2400 WATTS = 120 VOLTS * 20 AMP (12 Guage Wire)

To my understanding 2400 WATTS is more then the Water Heater can pull

Could someone elaborate on why National Wiring Code would not allow me to
use a 12 Guage Wire / 20 Amp Breaker?

Thanks


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RBM
 
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In the USA the National Electric Code allows 80 percent of the capacity of
the conductor which translates into 12 ga. is good for 16 amps or less
"Burhans" wrote in message
...
All,
I recently purchased a 20 Gallon Hot Water Heater (120V) 2000 Total
Watts...... The National Wiring Code stated that it needs a 25 Amp/10
Gauge Wire.......

Doing the Math (WATTS = VOLTS * AMPS)

2400 WATTS = 120 VOLTS * 20 AMP (12 Guage Wire)

To my understanding 2400 WATTS is more then the Water Heater can pull

Could someone elaborate on why National Wiring Code would not allow me to
use a 12 Guage Wire / 20 Amp Breaker?

Thanks



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toller
 
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2000w is 16.7a. Since the circuit cannot carry more than 80% of maximum
capacity, you would need a 21a circuit. Since there is no such thing as a
21a circuit, you need the next larger size.
Even if you could get by with #12, why would you want to? #10 will give
much less voltage drop and the price isn't all that much different.


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Doug Miller
 
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In article , "Burhans" wrote:
All,
I recently purchased a 20 Gallon Hot Water Heater (120V) 2000 Total
Watts...... The National Wiring Code stated that it needs a 25 Amp/10 Gauge
Wire.......

[snip]

Could someone elaborate on why National Wiring Code would not allow me to
use a 12 Guage Wire / 20 Amp Breaker?


Because a water heater is a "continuous load" as defined by the Code, and
continuous loads are not permitted to exceed 80% of the rated ampacity of the
circuit. For a 20A circuit, that is a maximum continuous load of 16A. Your
water heater will pull 2000W / 120V = 16.67A, which is 83.3% of the ampacity
of a 20A circuit. Thus you need at minimum 25A and 10ga wire. But don't knock
yourself out trying to find a 25A breaker - you can run 30A on 10ga wire, too,
and it will be much easier to find a 20A breaker.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
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Burhans
 
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What do you mean "Much Less Voltage Drop using a #10 opposed to a #12" ?

What would be the side affect for Hooking a #12 Wire pulling 16.7 Amps?

Could someone please explain "Continuous Load" and why a Hot Water Heater
falls into this catogory.

Would the Hot Water heater always be pulling the full 2000 Watts or does it
only pull 2000 Watts on the highest temp?

I have no problem running #10 Wire but I just ran #12 for a smaller Hot
Water Heater and needed to return it because it was too small for its
application (Washer/Dryer Room).

Thanks

"toller" wrote in message
...
2000w is 16.7a. Since the circuit cannot carry more than 80% of maximum
capacity, you would need a 21a circuit. Since there is no such thing as a
21a circuit, you need the next larger size.
Even if you could get by with #12, why would you want to? #10 will give
much less voltage drop and the price isn't all that much different.





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Doug Miller
 
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In article , "Burhans" wrote:
What do you mean "Much Less Voltage Drop using a #10 opposed to a #12" ?


The thicker the conductor, the less its resistance to current, and hence the
less the voltage will drop due to the resistance of the conductor -- but #12
wire has a resistance of only two ohms per thousand feet to begin with. To
state that #10 wire has "much less voltage drop" in your application
overstates the case a bit.

In any event, you need a 25A circuit and hence #10 wire at a minimum anyway,
so the difference in voltage drop between #12 and #10 is utterly irrelevant.

What would be the side affect for Hooking a #12 Wire pulling 16.7 Amps?


Possibly a fire. That's why the Code doesn't permit it.

Could someone please explain "Continuous Load" and why a Hot Water Heater
falls into this catogory.


"Continuous load: a load where the maximum current is expected to continue for
three hours or more."

Most of the time, the conditions of use of a water heater would *not* fall
into this category, but it certainly could.

Would the Hot Water heater always be pulling the full 2000 Watts or does it
only pull 2000 Watts on the highest temp?


The heating element is either on or off.

I have no problem running #10 Wire but I just ran #12 for a smaller Hot
Water Heater and needed to return it because it was too small for its
application (Washer/Dryer Room).


Well, then, run the #10.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
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Beeper
 
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Just my opinion and I'm not looking to start a "war", but American train of
thought is go big or go home. We always overdo things. A lot of European
influence is now invading American industry. Industries are now seeing that
it is cheaper to buy foreign because they don't "Over Engineer"
things(motors being a prime example). If you need a motor to do a certain
amount of work and carry X amount of amps to do it, then that is what you
buy. That is what it is rated for and guarenteed to do. American made
products tell you this is what it can do, but put in a buffer in case you
overdo it. Probably because of our legal system more than anything else. And
Yes, if you don't follow the NEC then you will have problems with the
insurance companies. It's digusting, but that's what we as Americans have
asked for! Can it handle it? YES! Will the insurance companies pay the claim
if there is a fire? Depends on how good a lawyer you have. And by the way I
still drive a Ford!!! Haven't given in to foreign ......YET!
"Burhans" wrote in message
...
All,
I recently purchased a 20 Gallon Hot Water Heater (120V) 2000 Total
Watts...... The National Wiring Code stated that it needs a 25 Amp/10
Gauge Wire.......

Doing the Math (WATTS = VOLTS * AMPS)

2400 WATTS = 120 VOLTS * 20 AMP (12 Guage Wire)

To my understanding 2400 WATTS is more then the Water Heater can pull

Could someone elaborate on why National Wiring Code would not allow me to
use a 12 Guage Wire / 20 Amp Breaker?

Thanks



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toller
 
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"Burhans" wrote in message
...
What do you mean "Much Less Voltage Drop using a #10 opposed to a #12" ?


If you are not familiar with the concept of voltage drop, you probably
should not be doing your own wiring; it is pretty basic.
http://www.electrician.com/vd_calculator.html
Wire has resistance. If you try to cram too much currant down a too long
wire, the heater will not get all the power it is supposed to get. The
heater will not heat as well, yet you will still be paying for all the
power.
Code allows 3% voltage drop, though that is really meant for things that are
voltage sensitive; which a heater is not. For a heater it is just a matter
of efficiency.

Heaters are usually 240v because it wastes less power for a given size of
wire.

What would be the side affect for Hooking a #12 Wire pulling 16.7 Amps?


The main thing is that the wire would get hot, and possibly start a fire.
Not likely with such a small overload, but when it happens the insurance
company is going to point out that the fire was caused by improper (and
presumably uninspected) wiring. I am not a lawyer, but it seems like
something best avoided.


Could someone please explain "Continuous Load" and why a Hot Water Heater
falls into this catogory.

Would the Hot Water heater always be pulling the full 2000 Watts or does
it only pull 2000 Watts on the highest temp?


The setting affects how long the heater is on. It is always pulling 2000w.
It is like your toaster; it is on or it isn't on; darker toast just takes
longer.

I have no problem running #10 Wire but I just ran #12 for a smaller Hot
Water Heater and needed to return it because it was too small for its
application (Washer/Dryer Room).


Good solution would be to get a 240v heater and use the #12 wire. It is
good for maybe 3500w, yet will have less voltage drop.

Thanks

"toller" wrote in message
...
2000w is 16.7a. Since the circuit cannot carry more than 80% of maximum
capacity, you would need a 21a circuit. Since there is no such thing as
a 21a circuit, you need the next larger size.
Even if you could get by with #12, why would you want to? #10 will give
much less voltage drop and the price isn't all that much different.





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toller wrote:

...Since the circuit cannot carry more than 80% of maximum capacity...


It seems mentally unhealthy to imagine the NEC is based solely on physical
reality, vs the interests of wire manufacturers and insurance companies :-)
The fusing current for 12 ga wire is 235 amps.

Nick

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Burhans
 
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Well I caved - With a New Born Baby only days away and the reality that
Insurance not covering my claim if there was a fire - I splurged the extra
money and got 100Ft of 10/2 w Ground Copper Wire.... Strangly enough the
Outdoor quality was cheaper then the indoor...... Go Figure

The Wire is run and connected but I have not flipped on the breaker to the
Hot Water Heater yet. My plumbing skills have been tested and a small leak
has developed on the Treaded Portion of the Hot Water Heater.... Of course I
did not let the thread seal cure for 48 Hrs... I am hoping giving it time to
seal will do the trick... Anyone have any view on Thread Seal and How long
it usually takes to seal the thread?

Thanks you all for the input

"Burhans" wrote in message
...
All,
I recently purchased a 20 Gallon Hot Water Heater (120V) 2000 Total
Watts...... The National Wiring Code stated that it needs a 25 Amp/10
Gauge Wire.......

Doing the Math (WATTS = VOLTS * AMPS)

2400 WATTS = 120 VOLTS * 20 AMP (12 Guage Wire)

To my understanding 2400 WATTS is more then the Water Heater can pull

Could someone elaborate on why National Wiring Code would not allow me to
use a 12 Guage Wire / 20 Amp Breaker?

Thanks



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toller
 
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"Burhans" wrote in message
...
Well I caved - With a New Born Baby only days away and the reality that
Insurance not covering my claim if there was a fire - I splurged the extra
money and got 100Ft of 10/2 w Ground Copper Wire.... Strangly enough the
Outdoor quality was cheaper then the indoor...... Go Figure


You did the right thing

The Wire is run and connected but I have not flipped on the breaker to the
Hot Water Heater yet. My plumbing skills have been tested and a small leak
has developed on the Treaded Portion of the Hot Water Heater.... Of course
I did not let the thread seal cure for 48 Hrs... I am hoping giving it
time to seal will do the trick... Anyone have any view on Thread Seal and
How long it usually takes to seal the thread?


Teflon tape...
Only time I ever used pipe dope (if that is what you mean) was on gas, and I
don't remember it needing to cure. (At least I didn't do it, and it didn't
leak.)


Thanks you all for the input

"Burhans" wrote in message
...
All,
I recently purchased a 20 Gallon Hot Water Heater (120V) 2000 Total
Watts...... The National Wiring Code stated that it needs a 25 Amp/10
Gauge Wire.......

Doing the Math (WATTS = VOLTS * AMPS)

2400 WATTS = 120 VOLTS * 20 AMP (12 Guage Wire)

To my understanding 2400 WATTS is more then the Water Heater can pull

Could someone elaborate on why National Wiring Code would not allow me to
use a 12 Guage Wire / 20 Amp Breaker?

Thanks





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stretch
 
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The National Electric Code is written by the NFPA. That stands for the
NATIONAL FIRE PROTECTION ASSOCIATION. They write other fire related
codes as well. Most of the articles in that code were written because
someone died. It is the code so someone does not get hurt or killed.

stretch

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Doug Miller
 
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In article , "Burhans" wrote:
Well I caved - With a New Born Baby only days away and the reality that
Insurance not covering my claim if there was a fire - I splurged the extra
money and got 100Ft of 10/2 w Ground Copper Wire.... Strangly enough the
Outdoor quality was cheaper then the indoor...... Go Figure


I'm guessing you compared the price of 100' of UF to 250' of NM...

The Wire is run and connected but I have not flipped on the breaker to the
Hot Water Heater yet. My plumbing skills have been tested and a small leak
has developed on the Treaded Portion of the Hot Water Heater.... Of course I
did not let the thread seal cure for 48 Hrs... I am hoping giving it time to
seal will do the trick... Anyone have any view on Thread Seal and How long
it usually takes to seal the thread?


If it's leaking, that means you didn't tighten the joint enough. Doesn't
matter how long you wait, it isn't going to seal.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
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Default Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater

replying to Burhans, albert wrote:
Yes that's correct about the NEC code. If your installation going to be
inspected, technically a 20 amp breaker using 12 ga. wire can be rejected. and
you would need to find a 26 amp breaker, using 10 gauge wire.

I'm also installing a Rheem 20 gallon 120V 2000 watt water heater. People ask
why not a 240?, which are more common. The reason is I only have 120 Vac
service for a motorhome where the 20 gallon (point of use) water heater being
installed. No 240 service means no 240 equipment, water heaters, stoves,
driers, welders, etc.

However problems occur trying to find a 25 amp circuit breaker. Hardware
stores don't usually carry them. If they do have one or two such as at Home
Depot they may only fit certain types of service panels.

My RV service panel accepts a max. of 9 (one inch wide) breakers (including
the main) and uses standard square-d single pole breakers for the home (1 inch
wide). Most of it's breakers in the rv load center are dual breakers.that save
space.

I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After
looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware
carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the
right type to fit my load center.

A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt
heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp
for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet)

If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker
anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker?

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on
that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one
can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code.



--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ter-11154-.htm




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Default Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater

replying to Burhans, albert wrote:
I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After
looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware
carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the
right type to fit my load center.

A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt
heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp
for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet)

If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker
anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker?

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on
that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one
can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code.


--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ter-11154-.htm


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Default Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater

On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:15 GMT, albert
m wrote:

replying to Burhans, albert wrote:
Yes that's correct about the NEC code. If your installation going to be
inspected, technically a 20 amp breaker using 12 ga. wire can be rejected. and
you would need to find a 26 amp breaker, using 10 gauge wire.

I'm also installing a Rheem 20 gallon 120V 2000 watt water heater. People ask
why not a 240?, which are more common. The reason is I only have 120 Vac
service for a motorhome where the 20 gallon (point of use) water heater being
installed. No 240 service means no 240 equipment, water heaters, stoves,
driers, welders, etc.

However problems occur trying to find a 25 amp circuit breaker. Hardware
stores don't usually carry them. If they do have one or two such as at Home
Depot they may only fit certain types of service panels.

My RV service panel accepts a max. of 9 (one inch wide) breakers (including
the main) and uses standard square-d single pole breakers for the home (1 inch
wide). Most of it's breakers in the rv load center are dual breakers.that save
space.

I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After
looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware
carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the
right type to fit my load center.

A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt
heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp
for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet)

If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker
anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker?


No such animal - at least not for a Square D QO. Never seen one for
ANY panel. Mabee try putting in a single 25 in place of one of the 15s
that is not one of the "most" that are doubles. And "over-fusing" a
water heater is not a problem as long as you use the right wire. You
are fusing for the WIRE, not the load.

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on
that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one
can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code.


Your only option is a 1500 watt.

Section 422-14 of the National Electric Code reads:

“b) Storage type water heaters. All fixed storage type water heaters
having a capacity of 120 gallons or less shall have a branch –
circuit rating NOT LESS THAN 125 percent of the nameplate rating of
the water heater.”

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Default Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater

In Clare Snyder writes:

[snip]

Your only option is a 1500 watt.


Section 422-14 of the National Electric Code reads:


b) Storage type water heaters. All fixed storage type water heaters
having a capacity of 120 gallons or less shall have a branch
circuit rating NOT LESS THAN 125 percent of the nameplate rating of
the water heater.


Just as a related explanation: In general, if you're using
a "continuous load", that is, one that'll stay at maximum
rating for over (ummmmm.... 15? minutes at a clip?), you're
supposed to de-rate the ampacity (current carrying rating)
of the wiring.

Reason is that the rating is based in large part on
the heating the wiring goes through.


--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
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Default Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater

On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:16 GMT, albert
m wrote:

replying to Burhans, albert wrote:
I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After
looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware
carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the
right type to fit my load center.

A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt
heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp
for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet)

If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker
anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker?

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on
that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one
can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code.


The only code issue is that the wire and the equipment is adequately
protected. As long as you are using 10 gauge wire you would be OK with
a 20, 25 or 30a breaker.
The continuous load language and the word "ampacity" itself refers to
the wire, not the breaker. If your voltage is nominal or lower (120 or
less) A 20 should work fine on a 2000 w element. That is 16.66 amps
and close enough for government work for an 80% breaker but I would
still spend the extra buck for 10 ga wire..
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On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 11:44:19 PM UTC-5, albert wrote:
replying to Burhans, albert wrote:
Yes that's correct about the NEC code. If your installation going to be
inspected, technically a 20 amp breaker using 12 ga. wire can be rejected. and
you would need to find a 26 amp breaker, using 10 gauge wire.


I think you mean 25A




I'm also installing a Rheem 20 gallon 120V 2000 watt water heater. People ask
why not a 240?, which are more common. The reason is I only have 120 Vac
service for a motorhome where the 20 gallon (point of use) water heater being
installed. No 240 service means no 240 equipment, water heaters, stoves,
driers, welders, etc.

However problems occur trying to find a 25 amp circuit breaker. Hardware
stores don't usually carry them. If they do have one or two such as at Home
Depot they may only fit certain types of service panels.

My RV service panel accepts a max. of 9 (one inch wide) breakers (including
the main) and uses standard square-d single pole breakers for the home (1 inch
wide). Most of it's breakers in the rv load center are dual breakers.that save
space.

I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After
looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware
carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the
right type to fit my load center.

A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt
heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp
for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet)


The breaker is rated to the wire. What happens if you plug an overload of
any size into any of the common 15A or 20A receptacles you have?





If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker
anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker?

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground.


Then you have an Edison circuit and you need to have a dual pole breaker,
it's not an option, unless maybe you can tie the handles together, not sure
if that's code compliant though. But if it's a dual pole to support the
wire choice you've made, then good luck finding one that's 25/20, which
is what you'd need for the WH and the receptacle.




$1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on
that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one
can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code.



--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ter-11154-.htm




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Default Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater

On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 1:13:47 AM UTC-5, danny burstein wrote:
In Clare Snyder writes:

[snip]

Your only option is a 1500 watt.


Section 422-14 of the National Electric Code reads:


b) Storage type water heaters. All fixed storage type water heaters
having a capacity of 120 gallons or less shall have a branch
circuit rating NOT LESS THAN 125 percent of the nameplate rating of
the water heater.


Just as a related explanation: In general, if you're using
a "continuous load", that is, one that'll stay at maximum
rating for over (ummmmm.... 15? minutes at a clip?), you're
supposed to de-rate the ampacity (current carrying rating)
of the wiring.


Continuous is defined in the code as an expected load over 3 hours.
If the code didn't address water heaters separately and essentially
treat his 20 gal WH as a continuous load, I would argue that it isn't
a continuous load at all. I guess the issue could be that someone
could leave the hot water faucet open, running, which would make it
into a continuous load. But when talking about continuous the code
says "expected", which leaves it open to interpretation. But the WH
is covered separately, so it doesn't matter.






Reason is that the rating is based in large part on
the heating the wiring goes through.


--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]


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On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 11:24:25 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:16 GMT, albert
m wrote:

replying to Burhans, albert wrote:
I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After
looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware
carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the
right type to fit my load center.

A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt
heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp
for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet)

If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker
anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker?

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on
that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one
can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code.


The only code issue is that the wire and the equipment is adequately
protected. As long as you are using 10 gauge wire you would be OK with
a 20, 25 or 30a breaker.
The continuous load language and the word "ampacity" itself refers to
the wire, not the breaker. If your voltage is nominal or lower (120 or
less) A 20 should work fine on a 2000 w element. That is 16.66 amps
and close enough for government work for an 80% breaker


Especially considering that you'd have to either have some pathological
usage of that water heater or leave the hot water faucet running for
3 hours to get to a continuous load to begin with.

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In trader_4 writes:

Continuous is defined in the code as an expected load over 3 hours.
If the code didn't address water heaters separately and essentially
treat his 20 gal WH as a continuous load, I would argue that it isn't
a continuous load at all.


au contrare. If the water heater is starting
with a full tank of cold water, hmm, let's see...

20 gallons (yeah, I'll stick with US units)
weighs about 160 pounds.

If we take a value of, oh, fifty degrees F for
the incoming cold water, and want to raise
it to 125F, that's a 75 degree change

160 pounds [enter], 75 [times] = 12,000 BTUs.

conversion of watts - BTU is about 3.5

12,000 [enter], 3.5 [divide] = 3,400 watt-hours

He's got a 2,000 watt heater element, so that's
about one and 3/4 hours.

So yeah, if I were designing specs (or insalling
the wiring, etc.) for a water heater, then
I'd do the derating to 80 percent.

(Of course, that's a non issue since Code does,
in fact, have a specific entry for water heaters.
Thanks for that pointer. It had washed out of
my memory).

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On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 08:50:05 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 11:24:25 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:16 GMT, albert
m wrote:

replying to Burhans, albert wrote:
I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After
looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware
carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the
right type to fit my load center.

A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt
heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp
for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet)

If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker
anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker?

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on
that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one
can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code.


The only code issue is that the wire and the equipment is adequately
protected. As long as you are using 10 gauge wire you would be OK with
a 20, 25 or 30a breaker.
The continuous load language and the word "ampacity" itself refers to
the wire, not the breaker. If your voltage is nominal or lower (120 or
less) A 20 should work fine on a 2000 w element. That is 16.66 amps
and close enough for government work for an 80% breaker


Especially considering that you'd have to either have some pathological
usage of that water heater or leave the hot water faucet running for
3 hours to get to a continuous load to begin with.


It doesn't matter. The 80% rule apples to any single piece of
equipment on a branch circuit, continuous or not. That is the wire,
not the breaker. Since 2000w is 16.66a I doubt most inspectors would
say a word about it being on a 20a breaker. More would be likely to
complain about the 12 gauge wire tho.
In my opinion it is not really an issue but it is technically illegal.
That would be exacerbated by higher than nominal voltage but in my
experience mobile home parks run low. They were typically wired before
electrical demands are as high as they are now. I have seen some with
a calculated service feeder demand per lot was 50a or less even though
the service at the lot might be 100a, up from the original 60a post.
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On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 12:18:01 PM UTC-5, danny burstein wrote:
In trader_4 writes:

Continuous is defined in the code as an expected load over 3 hours.
If the code didn't address water heaters separately and essentially
treat his 20 gal WH as a continuous load, I would argue that it isn't
a continuous load at all.


au contrare. If the water heater is starting
with a full tank of cold water, hmm, let's see...

20 gallons (yeah, I'll stick with US units)
weighs about 160 pounds.

If we take a value of, oh, fifty degrees F for
the incoming cold water, and want to raise
it to 125F, that's a 75 degree change

160 pounds [enter], 75 [times] = 12,000 BTUs.

conversion of watts - BTU is about 3.5

12,000 [enter], 3.5 [divide] = 3,400 watt-hours

He's got a 2,000 watt heater element, so that's
about one and 3/4 hours.





So yeah, if I were designing specs (or insalling
the wiring, etc.) for a water heater, then
I'd do the derating to 80 percent.



You can do whatever you want, but code says a continuous load is 3 hours plus. That is the case for continuous loads, but they spec water heaters separately, which I previously cited.
I'd sleep well knowing the physics and using a 20 amp breaker, regardless of the code. Even applying the 80 percent rule, a 20 amp circuit is good to 16 amp and this is 16.6 and that's if it runs continuously. BFD.





(Of course, that's a non issue since Code does,
in fact, have a specific entry for water heaters.
Thanks for that pointer. It had washed out of
my memory).

--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]



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On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 12:28:07 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 08:50:05 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 11:24:25 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:16 GMT, albert
m wrote:

replying to Burhans, albert wrote:
I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After
looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware
carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the
right type to fit my load center.

A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt
heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp
for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet)

If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker
anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker?

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on
that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one
can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code.

The only code issue is that the wire and the equipment is adequately
protected. As long as you are using 10 gauge wire you would be OK with
a 20, 25 or 30a breaker.
The continuous load language and the word "ampacity" itself refers to
the wire, not the breaker. If your voltage is nominal or lower (120 or
less) A 20 should work fine on a 2000 w element. That is 16.66 amps
and close enough for government work for an 80% breaker


Especially considering that you'd have to either have some pathological
usage of that water heater or leave the hot water faucet running for
3 hours to get to a continuous load to begin with.


It doesn't matter. The 80% rule apples to any single piece of
equipment on a branch circuit, continuous or not. That is the wire,
not the breaker.


Well, now I'm confused. If it applies to all, then why is there anything
special about continuous loads? I thought the 80% rule applied only
to continuous loads.





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Default Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater

On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 06:56:00 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 12:28:07 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 08:50:05 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 11:24:25 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:16 GMT, albert
m wrote:

replying to Burhans, albert wrote:
I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After
looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware
carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the
right type to fit my load center.

A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt
heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp
for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet)

If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker
anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker?

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on
that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one
can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code.

The only code issue is that the wire and the equipment is adequately
protected. As long as you are using 10 gauge wire you would be OK with
a 20, 25 or 30a breaker.
The continuous load language and the word "ampacity" itself refers to
the wire, not the breaker. If your voltage is nominal or lower (120 or
less) A 20 should work fine on a 2000 w element. That is 16.66 amps
and close enough for government work for an 80% breaker

Especially considering that you'd have to either have some pathological
usage of that water heater or leave the hot water faucet running for
3 hours to get to a continuous load to begin with.


It doesn't matter. The 80% rule apples to any single piece of
equipment on a branch circuit, continuous or not. That is the wire,
not the breaker.


Well, now I'm confused. If it applies to all, then why is there anything
special about continuous loads? I thought the 80% rule applied only
to continuous loads.

You are correct, I was thinking this would be cord and plug connected.
(120v)
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On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 2:01:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 06:56:00 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 12:28:07 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 08:50:05 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 11:24:25 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:16 GMT, albert
m wrote:

replying to Burhans, albert wrote:
I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After
looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware
carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the
right type to fit my load center.

A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt
heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp
for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet)

If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker
anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker?

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on
that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one
can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code.

The only code issue is that the wire and the equipment is adequately
protected. As long as you are using 10 gauge wire you would be OK with
a 20, 25 or 30a breaker.
The continuous load language and the word "ampacity" itself refers to
the wire, not the breaker. If your voltage is nominal or lower (120 or
less) A 20 should work fine on a 2000 w element. That is 16.66 amps
and close enough for government work for an 80% breaker

Especially considering that you'd have to either have some pathological
usage of that water heater or leave the hot water faucet running for
3 hours to get to a continuous load to begin with.

It doesn't matter. The 80% rule apples to any single piece of
equipment on a branch circuit, continuous or not. That is the wire,
not the breaker.


Well, now I'm confused. If it applies to all, then why is there anything
special about continuous loads? I thought the 80% rule applied only
to continuous loads.

You are correct, I was thinking this would be cord and plug connected.
(120v)



I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

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On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.


I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.
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In Dean Hoffman writes:

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.


Mena, mena, tekel, upharsin.


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On 12/16/18 3:49 PM, danny burstein wrote:
In Dean Hoffman writes:

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.


Mena, mena, tekel, upharsin.


I had to look that up. It got a Babylonian king's attention.
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On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 4:33:17 PM UTC-5, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.


I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.


I was talking about current carrying conductors, though I didn't specifically say that. Regardless, the problem I presented is valid.
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On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 13:16:55 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 2:01:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 06:56:00 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 12:28:07 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 08:50:05 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 11:24:25 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:16 GMT, albert
m wrote:

replying to Burhans, albert wrote:
I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After
looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware
carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the
right type to fit my load center.

A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt
heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp
for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet)

If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker
anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker?

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on
that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one
can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code.

The only code issue is that the wire and the equipment is adequately
protected. As long as you are using 10 gauge wire you would be OK with
a 20, 25 or 30a breaker.
The continuous load language and the word "ampacity" itself refers to
the wire, not the breaker. If your voltage is nominal or lower (120 or
less) A 20 should work fine on a 2000 w element. That is 16.66 amps
and close enough for government work for an 80% breaker

Especially considering that you'd have to either have some pathological
usage of that water heater or leave the hot water faucet running for
3 hours to get to a continuous load to begin with.

It doesn't matter. The 80% rule apples to any single piece of
equipment on a branch circuit, continuous or not. That is the wire,
not the breaker.

Well, now I'm confused. If it applies to all, then why is there anything
special about continuous loads? I thought the 80% rule applied only
to continuous loads.

You are correct, I was thinking this would be cord and plug connected.
(120v)



I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.


Is one of the conductors green? Then 3 is a regular 5-20 plug.
Why would you have an edison (multiwire) circuit for a water heater
with a single element and no other load?
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On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.


I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.


What is he going to connect the 4th wire to?
This is a 120v water heater.
A hot, a neutral and a ground.
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On 12/16/18 11:59 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.


I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.


What is he going to connect the 4th wire to?
This is a 120v water heater.
A hot, a neutral and a ground.

He wrote back on the 14th that he wanted to add an outlet by the
water heater
outlet.


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On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.


I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.


What is he going to connect the 4th wire to?
This is a 120v water heater.
A hot, a neutral and a ground.


I guess you didn't read his post or the couple where I commented on it.
He said he was installing one 20A receptacle too. That lead to the problems
with breaker sizing an Edison circuit to support both. And now that I think
about it, maybe there is a more fundamental problem? Can you use an Edison
circuit to support both a hard wired load like a water heater and a
receptacle? I've only seen them used for receptacles.





  #37   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15,279
Default Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 12:58:35 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 13:16:55 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 2:01:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 06:56:00 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 12:28:07 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 08:50:05 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 11:24:25 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:16 GMT, albert
m wrote:

replying to Burhans, albert wrote:
I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After
looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware
carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the
right type to fit my load center.

A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt
heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp
for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet)

If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker
anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker?

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on
that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one
can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code.

The only code issue is that the wire and the equipment is adequately
protected. As long as you are using 10 gauge wire you would be OK with
a 20, 25 or 30a breaker.
The continuous load language and the word "ampacity" itself refers to
the wire, not the breaker. If your voltage is nominal or lower (120 or
less) A 20 should work fine on a 2000 w element. That is 16.66 amps
and close enough for government work for an 80% breaker

Especially considering that you'd have to either have some pathological
usage of that water heater or leave the hot water faucet running for
3 hours to get to a continuous load to begin with.

It doesn't matter. The 80% rule apples to any single piece of
equipment on a branch circuit, continuous or not. That is the wire,
not the breaker.

Well, now I'm confused. If it applies to all, then why is there anything
special about continuous loads? I thought the 80% rule applied only
to continuous loads.

You are correct, I was thinking this would be cord and plug connected.
(120v)



I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.


Is one of the conductors green? Then 3 is a regular 5-20 plug.
Why would you have an edison (multiwire) circuit for a water heater
with a single element and no other load?


I guess you missed this:

"He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle."

  #38   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 14,141
Default Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 04:36:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.


What is he going to connect the 4th wire to?
This is a 120v water heater.
A hot, a neutral and a ground.


I guess you didn't read his post or the couple where I commented on it.
He said he was installing one 20A receptacle too. That lead to the problems
with breaker sizing an Edison circuit to support both. And now that I think
about it, maybe there is a more fundamental problem? Can you use an Edison
circuit to support both a hard wired load like a water heater and a
receptacle? I've only seen them used for receptacles.

There is nothing wrong with Multiwire circuits feeding one receptacle
and one piece of fixed in place equipment. He can also protect it with
a handle tied pair of breakers and they do not have to be the same
size. As has been stated several times a 20a breaker would work here.
I would not have a serious problem with 12ga wire but he already
bought the 10.
What is he using for a disconnect if this is not cord and plug?

  #39   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,564
Default Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:05:32 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 04:36:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.

What is he going to connect the 4th wire to?
This is a 120v water heater.
A hot, a neutral and a ground.


I guess you didn't read his post or the couple where I commented on it.
He said he was installing one 20A receptacle too. That lead to the problems
with breaker sizing an Edison circuit to support both. And now that I think
about it, maybe there is a more fundamental problem? Can you use an Edison
circuit to support both a hard wired load like a water heater and a
receptacle? I've only seen them used for receptacles.

There is nothing wrong with Multiwire circuits feeding one receptacle
and one piece of fixed in place equipment. He can also protect it with
a handle tied pair of breakers and they do not have to be the same
size. As has been stated several times a 20a breaker would work here.
I would not have a serious problem with 12ga wire but he already
bought the 10.
What is he using for a disconnect if this is not cord and plug?

Well, cord and plug would be EXTREMELY out of the ordinary, and a
fused or non-fused disconnect would both be good candidates . Commonly
used for air conditioner comprssor/condensor units.

Something like an EATON DPB222R - designed foe 220 but often used for
120 as well.

Or a Square D Model # L211N - available from Lowes for about $35

Even simpler, a Leviton Model # 3031-2W mounted in a standard wiring
box - less than $20 at Home Despot. Don't know about in the USA but a
plug-in connection for a standard water heater doesn't meet code.

Plugging inthe eductor blower on a gas heater is allowed (it comes
with a 15 amp standard cord and plug)
  #40   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 4,564
Default Electrical Wiring Hot Water Heater

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 00:58:25 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 13:16:55 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 2:01:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 06:56:00 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 12:28:07 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 08:50:05 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 11:24:25 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:44:16 GMT, albert
m wrote:

replying to Burhans, albert wrote:
I'm also adding an AC 120V 20 amp outlet next to the water heater. After
looking around could not find a 20/25 amp dual breaker. The local ACE hardware
carried no 25 amp breakers. Home Depot had a 25 amp breaker but wasn't the
right type to fit my load center.

A 30 amp breaker might not trip or trip in time when connected to a 2000 watt
heating element. So I for now I'm going to use a 20 amp breaker (20/20, 20 amp
for the water heater and 20 amp of a 20 amp AC outlet)

If wanting a dual breaker I haven't been able to find a 20/25 amp dual breaker
anywhere. Perhaps a store such as Platt electric might have such a breaker?

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

Another option would be to swap out the 2000 watt heating element for on
that's under 2000 watt such as a ~1700 or ~1800, etc. watt element. Then one
can use a 20 amp breaker with 12 gauge wire and be up to code.

The only code issue is that the wire and the equipment is adequately
protected. As long as you are using 10 gauge wire you would be OK with
a 20, 25 or 30a breaker.
The continuous load language and the word "ampacity" itself refers to
the wire, not the breaker. If your voltage is nominal or lower (120 or
less) A 20 should work fine on a 2000 w element. That is 16.66 amps
and close enough for government work for an 80% breaker

Especially considering that you'd have to either have some pathological
usage of that water heater or leave the hot water faucet running for
3 hours to get to a continuous load to begin with.

It doesn't matter. The 80% rule apples to any single piece of
equipment on a branch circuit, continuous or not. That is the wire,
not the breaker.

Well, now I'm confused. If it applies to all, then why is there anything
special about continuous loads? I thought the 80% rule applied only
to continuous loads.

You are correct, I was thinking this would be cord and plug connected.
(120v)



I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.


Is one of the conductors green? Then 3 is a regular 5-20 plug.
Why would you have an edison (multiwire) circuit for a water heater
with a single element and no other load?

Combination of convenience and cost with a small shot of ignorance
added for good measure. Nothing WRONG with it, but not a whole lot of
right either.

The only problem he has is apparently he is low on panel realestate.
He needs (apparently) to use a pair of "mini" breakers to add the
second circuit and he was wanting to use a "twinned" breaker. His only
other legal option at this point is a handle tie as he MUST have a
common trip - and the breakers MUST be on opposite sides of the
service (L1 and L2) to use an edison circuit - it MUST have 240 across
the red and black or the neutral will be overloaded.
He CAN use breakers with different trip currents with handle ties -
not sure if there is a mini-breaker handle tie available for his panel
but should be.
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