On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 01:07:46 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:05:32 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 04:36:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.

What is he going to connect the 4th wire to?
This is a 120v water heater.
A hot, a neutral and a ground.

I guess you didn't read his post or the couple where I commented on it.
He said he was installing one 20A receptacle too. That lead to the problems
with breaker sizing an Edison circuit to support both. And now that I think
about it, maybe there is a more fundamental problem? Can you use an Edison
circuit to support both a hard wired load like a water heater and a
receptacle? I've only seen them used for receptacles.

There is nothing wrong with Multiwire circuits feeding one receptacle
and one piece of fixed in place equipment. He can also protect it with
a handle tied pair of breakers and they do not have to be the same
size. As has been stated several times a 20a breaker would work here.
I would not have a serious problem with 12ga wire but he already
bought the 10.
What is he using for a disconnect if this is not cord and plug?
Well, cord and plug would be EXTREMELY out of the ordinary,

Not for 120 volt units.

On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 5:42:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 01:07:46 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:05:32 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 04:36:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.

What is he going to connect the 4th wire to?
This is a 120v water heater.
A hot, a neutral and a ground.

I guess you didn't read his post or the couple where I commented on it.
He said he was installing one 20A receptacle too. That lead to the problems
with breaker sizing an Edison circuit to support both. And now that I think
about it, maybe there is a more fundamental problem? Can you use an Edison
circuit to support both a hard wired load like a water heater and a
receptacle? I've only seen them used for receptacles.

There is nothing wrong with Multiwire circuits feeding one receptacle
and one piece of fixed in place equipment. He can also protect it with
a handle tied pair of breakers and they do not have to be the same
size. As has been stated several times a 20a breaker would work here.
I would not have a serious problem with 12ga wire but he already
bought the 10.
What is he using for a disconnect if this is not cord and plug?
Well, cord and plug would be EXTREMELY out of the ordinary,

Not for 120 volt units.

In fact, for a small 120V WH, a cord and plug might be the preferred
solution instead of a disconnect. If it's easily accessible and doesn't
need a disconnect, I'd hard wire it. If it's in a location that needs
a disconnect and isn't so accessible, eg under a sink, I'd use a cord
and plug which makes everything easier.

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 06:38:25 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 5:42:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 01:07:46 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:05:32 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 04:36:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.

What is he going to connect the 4th wire to?
This is a 120v water heater.
A hot, a neutral and a ground.

I guess you didn't read his post or the couple where I commented on it.
He said he was installing one 20A receptacle too. That lead to the problems
with breaker sizing an Edison circuit to support both. And now that I think
about it, maybe there is a more fundamental problem? Can you use an Edison
circuit to support both a hard wired load like a water heater and a
receptacle? I've only seen them used for receptacles.

There is nothing wrong with Multiwire circuits feeding one receptacle
and one piece of fixed in place equipment. He can also protect it with
a handle tied pair of breakers and they do not have to be the same
size. As has been stated several times a 20a breaker would work here.
I would not have a serious problem with 12ga wire but he already
bought the 10.
What is he using for a disconnect if this is not cord and plug?
Well, cord and plug would be EXTREMELY out of the ordinary,

Not for 120 volt units.

In fact, for a small 120V WH, a cord and plug might be the preferred
solution instead of a disconnect. If it's easily accessible and doesn't
need a disconnect, I'd hard wire it. If it's in a location that needs
a disconnect and isn't so accessible, eg under a sink, I'd use a cord
and plug which makes everything easier.

The one we had at the store came in the box with a cord and plug. The
problem for us was that it was a 5-20 plug and we didn't have any 5-20
receptacles. We did have a 20a circuit but it had a 5-15 receptacle
on it. I changed the plug. (it was rented space and I wasn't going to
screw with their circuit)

On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:42:31 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 01:07:46 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:05:32 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 04:36:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.

What is he going to connect the 4th wire to?
This is a 120v water heater.
A hot, a neutral and a ground.

I guess you didn't read his post or the couple where I commented on it.
He said he was installing one 20A receptacle too. That lead to the problems
with breaker sizing an Edison circuit to support both. And now that I think
about it, maybe there is a more fundamental problem? Can you use an Edison
circuit to support both a hard wired load like a water heater and a
receptacle? I've only seen them used for receptacles.

There is nothing wrong with Multiwire circuits feeding one receptacle
and one piece of fixed in place equipment. He can also protect it with
a handle tied pair of breakers and they do not have to be the same
size. As has been stated several times a 20a breaker would work here.
I would not have a serious problem with 12ga wire but he already
bought the 10.
What is he using for a disconnect if this is not cord and plug?
Well, cord and plug would be EXTREMELY out of the ordinary,

Not for 120 volt units.
Not for 1500 watt 120 volt units, but for 2000 watt 20 gallon units
it is. Even a 1500 watt Whirlpool 20 gallon is "direct wire only"
The Richmond 2.5 gallon is a plug-in at 1440 watts.- - - the larger
120 volt units use 2000 watt and 4400 watt elements and are direct
wire only.

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:11:36 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 06:38:25 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 5:42:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 01:07:46 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:05:32 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 04:36:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.

What is he going to connect the 4th wire to?
This is a 120v water heater.
A hot, a neutral and a ground.

I guess you didn't read his post or the couple where I commented on it.
He said he was installing one 20A receptacle too. That lead to the problems
with breaker sizing an Edison circuit to support both. And now that I think
about it, maybe there is a more fundamental problem? Can you use an Edison
circuit to support both a hard wired load like a water heater and a
receptacle? I've only seen them used for receptacles.

There is nothing wrong with Multiwire circuits feeding one receptacle
and one piece of fixed in place equipment. He can also protect it with
a handle tied pair of breakers and they do not have to be the same
size. As has been stated several times a 20a breaker would work here.
I would not have a serious problem with 12ga wire but he already
bought the 10.
What is he using for a disconnect if this is not cord and plug?
Well, cord and plug would be EXTREMELY out of the ordinary,

Not for 120 volt units.

In fact, for a small 120V WH, a cord and plug might be the preferred
solution instead of a disconnect. If it's easily accessible and doesn't
need a disconnect, I'd hard wire it. If it's in a location that needs
a disconnect and isn't so accessible, eg under a sink, I'd use a cord
and plug which makes everything easier.

The one we had at the store came in the box with a cord and plug. The
problem for us was that it was a 5-20 plug and we didn't have any 5-20
receptacles. We did have a 20a circuit but it had a 5-15 receptacle
on it. I changed the plug. (it was rented space and I wasn't going to
screw with their circuit)
If it was a "small" unit that comes with a cord - plug it in - to
the correct outlet. The only "small" "plug-in" units I can find are
1440 watt 15 amp.(2.5 gallon POU)

A 1500 watt would have a 20 amp plug on it if it was available as a
plug-in - a 6 gallon, most likely. Anything bigger would need 30 amp
plug -never seen one up here in Canada -

Bet YOURS was a 1500 watt 6 gallon unit - right GF?

The OP only said his was a 2000 watt unit. I'm guessing 15 OR 20
GALLON - and not supplied with a plug.

Electrical code 422.16(A)
110.3

it will be in the listed instructions if the appliance is intended to
be cord and plug connected, most larger appliances would not meet
this.

You can read the code here.
https://www2.iccsafe.org/states/Phoe...stallation.pdf

If the device does not come with a cord - it is not generally
"listed" for plug and cord connection.

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 22:40:49 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:11:36 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 06:38:25 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 5:42:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 01:07:46 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:05:32 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 04:36:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.

What is he going to connect the 4th wire to?
This is a 120v water heater.
A hot, a neutral and a ground.

I guess you didn't read his post or the couple where I commented on it.
He said he was installing one 20A receptacle too. That lead to the problems
with breaker sizing an Edison circuit to support both. And now that I think
about it, maybe there is a more fundamental problem? Can you use an Edison
circuit to support both a hard wired load like a water heater and a
receptacle? I've only seen them used for receptacles.

There is nothing wrong with Multiwire circuits feeding one receptacle
and one piece of fixed in place equipment. He can also protect it with
a handle tied pair of breakers and they do not have to be the same
size. As has been stated several times a 20a breaker would work here.
I would not have a serious problem with 12ga wire but he already
bought the 10.
What is he using for a disconnect if this is not cord and plug?
Well, cord and plug would be EXTREMELY out of the ordinary,

Not for 120 volt units.

In fact, for a small 120V WH, a cord and plug might be the preferred
solution instead of a disconnect. If it's easily accessible and doesn't
need a disconnect, I'd hard wire it. If it's in a location that needs
a disconnect and isn't so accessible, eg under a sink, I'd use a cord
and plug which makes everything easier.

The one we had at the store came in the box with a cord and plug. The
problem for us was that it was a 5-20 plug and we didn't have any 5-20
receptacles. We did have a 20a circuit but it had a 5-15 receptacle
on it. I changed the plug. (it was rented space and I wasn't going to
screw with their circuit)
If it was a "small" unit that comes with a cord - plug it in - to
the correct outlet. The only "small" "plug-in" units I can find are
1440 watt 15 amp.(2.5 gallon POU)

A 1500 watt would have a 20 amp plug on it if it was available as a
plug-in - a 6 gallon, most likely. Anything bigger would need 30 amp
plug -never seen one up here in Canada -

Bet YOURS was a 1500 watt 6 gallon unit - right GF?

The OP only said his was a 2000 watt unit. I'm guessing 15 OR 20
GALLON - and not supplied with a plug.

Electrical code 422.16(A)
110.3

it will be in the listed instructions if the appliance is intended to
be cord and plug connected, most larger appliances would not meet
this.

You can read the code here.
https://www2.iccsafe.org/states/Phoe...stallation.pdf

If the device does not come with a cord - it is not generally
"listed" for plug and cord connection.

This water heater was 1920w and it did come with a factory 5-20 (20a)
plug. (late 80s)
I doubt the manufacturing tolerance on these elements is +/- 5% so
this is just a labeling issue.

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 23:27:24 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 22:40:49 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:11:36 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 06:38:25 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 5:42:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 01:07:46 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:05:32 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 04:36:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.

What is he going to connect the 4th wire to?
This is a 120v water heater.
A hot, a neutral and a ground.

I guess you didn't read his post or the couple where I commented on it.
He said he was installing one 20A receptacle too. That lead to the problems
with breaker sizing an Edison circuit to support both. And now that I think
about it, maybe there is a more fundamental problem? Can you use an Edison
circuit to support both a hard wired load like a water heater and a
receptacle? I've only seen them used for receptacles.

There is nothing wrong with Multiwire circuits feeding one receptacle
and one piece of fixed in place equipment. He can also protect it with
a handle tied pair of breakers and they do not have to be the same
size. As has been stated several times a 20a breaker would work here.
I would not have a serious problem with 12ga wire but he already
bought the 10.
What is he using for a disconnect if this is not cord and plug?
Well, cord and plug would be EXTREMELY out of the ordinary,

Not for 120 volt units.

In fact, for a small 120V WH, a cord and plug might be the preferred
solution instead of a disconnect. If it's easily accessible and doesn't
need a disconnect, I'd hard wire it. If it's in a location that needs
a disconnect and isn't so accessible, eg under a sink, I'd use a cord
and plug which makes everything easier.

The one we had at the store came in the box with a cord and plug. The
problem for us was that it was a 5-20 plug and we didn't have any 5-20
receptacles. We did have a 20a circuit but it had a 5-15 receptacle
on it. I changed the plug. (it was rented space and I wasn't going to
screw with their circuit)
If it was a "small" unit that comes with a cord - plug it in - to
the correct outlet. The only "small" "plug-in" units I can find are
1440 watt 15 amp.(2.5 gallon POU)

A 1500 watt would have a 20 amp plug on it if it was available as a
plug-in - a 6 gallon, most likely. Anything bigger would need 30 amp
plug -never seen one up here in Canada -

Bet YOURS was a 1500 watt 6 gallon unit - right GF?

The OP only said his was a 2000 watt unit. I'm guessing 15 OR 20
GALLON - and not supplied with a plug.

Electrical code 422.16(A)
110.3

it will be in the listed instructions if the appliance is intended to
be cord and plug connected, most larger appliances would not meet
this.

You can read the code here.
https://www2.iccsafe.org/states/Phoe...stallation.pdf

If the device does not come with a cord - it is not generally
"listed" for plug and cord connection.

This water heater was 1920w and it did come with a factory 5-20 (20a)
plug. (late 80s)
I doubt the manufacturing tolerance on these elements is +/- 5% so
this is just a labeling issue.
Likely no longer available due to code changes. Not available up
here anyway.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 00:13:09 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 23:27:24 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 22:40:49 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:11:36 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 06:38:25 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 5:42:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 01:07:46 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:05:32 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 04:36:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.

What is he going to connect the 4th wire to?
This is a 120v water heater.
A hot, a neutral and a ground.

I guess you didn't read his post or the couple where I commented on it.
He said he was installing one 20A receptacle too. That lead to the problems
with breaker sizing an Edison circuit to support both. And now that I think
about it, maybe there is a more fundamental problem? Can you use an Edison
circuit to support both a hard wired load like a water heater and a
receptacle? I've only seen them used for receptacles.

There is nothing wrong with Multiwire circuits feeding one receptacle
and one piece of fixed in place equipment. He can also protect it with
a handle tied pair of breakers and they do not have to be the same
size. As has been stated several times a 20a breaker would work here.
I would not have a serious problem with 12ga wire but he already
bought the 10.
What is he using for a disconnect if this is not cord and plug?
Well, cord and plug would be EXTREMELY out of the ordinary,

Not for 120 volt units.

In fact, for a small 120V WH, a cord and plug might be the preferred
solution instead of a disconnect. If it's easily accessible and doesn't
need a disconnect, I'd hard wire it. If it's in a location that needs
a disconnect and isn't so accessible, eg under a sink, I'd use a cord
and plug which makes everything easier.

The one we had at the store came in the box with a cord and plug. The
problem for us was that it was a 5-20 plug and we didn't have any 5-20
receptacles. We did have a 20a circuit but it had a 5-15 receptacle
on it. I changed the plug. (it was rented space and I wasn't going to
screw with their circuit)
If it was a "small" unit that comes with a cord - plug it in - to
the correct outlet. The only "small" "plug-in" units I can find are
1440 watt 15 amp.(2.5 gallon POU)

A 1500 watt would have a 20 amp plug on it if it was available as a
plug-in - a 6 gallon, most likely. Anything bigger would need 30 amp
plug -never seen one up here in Canada -

Bet YOURS was a 1500 watt 6 gallon unit - right GF?

The OP only said his was a 2000 watt unit. I'm guessing 15 OR 20
GALLON - and not supplied with a plug.

Electrical code 422.16(A)
110.3

it will be in the listed instructions if the appliance is intended to
be cord and plug connected, most larger appliances would not meet
this.

You can read the code here.
https://www2.iccsafe.org/states/Phoe...stallation.pdf

If the device does not come with a cord - it is not generally
"listed" for plug and cord connection.

This water heater was 1920w and it did come with a factory 5-20 (20a)
plug. (late 80s)
I doubt the manufacturing tolerance on these elements is +/- 5% so
this is just a labeling issue.
Likely no longer available due to code changes. Not available up
here anyway.

What code change would that be?

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 01:17:05 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 00:13:09 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 23:27:24 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 22:40:49 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:11:36 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 06:38:25 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 5:42:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 01:07:46 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:05:32 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 04:36:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.

What is he going to connect the 4th wire to?
This is a 120v water heater.
A hot, a neutral and a ground.

I guess you didn't read his post or the couple where I commented on it.
He said he was installing one 20A receptacle too. That lead to the problems
with breaker sizing an Edison circuit to support both. And now that I think
about it, maybe there is a more fundamental problem? Can you use an Edison
circuit to support both a hard wired load like a water heater and a
receptacle? I've only seen them used for receptacles.

There is nothing wrong with Multiwire circuits feeding one receptacle
and one piece of fixed in place equipment. He can also protect it with
a handle tied pair of breakers and they do not have to be the same
size. As has been stated several times a 20a breaker would work here.
I would not have a serious problem with 12ga wire but he already
bought the 10.
What is he using for a disconnect if this is not cord and plug?
Well, cord and plug would be EXTREMELY out of the ordinary,

Not for 120 volt units.

In fact, for a small 120V WH, a cord and plug might be the preferred
solution instead of a disconnect. If it's easily accessible and doesn't
need a disconnect, I'd hard wire it. If it's in a location that needs
a disconnect and isn't so accessible, eg under a sink, I'd use a cord
and plug which makes everything easier.

The one we had at the store came in the box with a cord and plug. The
problem for us was that it was a 5-20 plug and we didn't have any 5-20
receptacles. We did have a 20a circuit but it had a 5-15 receptacle
on it. I changed the plug. (it was rented space and I wasn't going to
screw with their circuit)
If it was a "small" unit that comes with a cord - plug it in - to
the correct outlet. The only "small" "plug-in" units I can find are
1440 watt 15 amp.(2.5 gallon POU)

A 1500 watt would have a 20 amp plug on it if it was available as a
plug-in - a 6 gallon, most likely. Anything bigger would need 30 amp
plug -never seen one up here in Canada -

Bet YOURS was a 1500 watt 6 gallon unit - right GF?

The OP only said his was a 2000 watt unit. I'm guessing 15 OR 20
GALLON - and not supplied with a plug.

Electrical code 422.16(A)
110.3

it will be in the listed instructions if the appliance is intended to
be cord and plug connected, most larger appliances would not meet
this.

You can read the code here.
https://www2.iccsafe.org/states/Phoe...stallation.pdf

If the device does not come with a cord - it is not generally
"listed" for plug and cord connection.

This water heater was 1920w and it did come with a factory 5-20 (20a)
plug. (late 80s)
I doubt the manufacturing tolerance on these elements is +/- 5% so
this is just a labeling issue.
Likely no longer available due to code changes. Not available up
here anyway.

What code change would that be?
don't know of any - mabee just better compliance? Don't know how you
were able to buy nonconforming equipment, or if you or someone else
modified it contrary to code. That practice appears to be rampant in
the USA. Even the president figures laws don't apply to him.


Having been in the computer manufacturing buisiness during that time
period I KNOW the majority of our competition was not compliant to
FCC,DOT, ULC, or CSA standards of the time. Didn't matter if they were
American, CXanadian or Taiwanese. If they were Mainland Chinese the
almost certainly were not.

They were sold with impunity.
Doesn't make it right,

We spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on compliance, inspections,
certifications, etc, even getting "special inspections" from Ontario
Hydro for custom and one-off models to make them legal.

On 12/20/18 12:13 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
Likely no longer available due to code changes. Not available up
here anyway.

Maybe you can sneak one across the border?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Pe...14U0/204318371

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 03:09:13 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 01:17:05 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 00:13:09 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 23:27:24 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 22:40:49 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:11:36 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 06:38:25 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 5:42:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 01:07:46 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:05:32 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 04:36:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.

What is he going to connect the 4th wire to?
This is a 120v water heater.
A hot, a neutral and a ground.

I guess you didn't read his post or the couple where I commented on it.
He said he was installing one 20A receptacle too. That lead to the problems
with breaker sizing an Edison circuit to support both. And now that I think
about it, maybe there is a more fundamental problem? Can you use an Edison
circuit to support both a hard wired load like a water heater and a
receptacle? I've only seen them used for receptacles.

There is nothing wrong with Multiwire circuits feeding one receptacle
and one piece of fixed in place equipment. He can also protect it with
a handle tied pair of breakers and they do not have to be the same
size. As has been stated several times a 20a breaker would work here.
I would not have a serious problem with 12ga wire but he already
bought the 10.
What is he using for a disconnect if this is not cord and plug?
Well, cord and plug would be EXTREMELY out of the ordinary,

Not for 120 volt units.

In fact, for a small 120V WH, a cord and plug might be the preferred
solution instead of a disconnect. If it's easily accessible and doesn't
need a disconnect, I'd hard wire it. If it's in a location that needs
a disconnect and isn't so accessible, eg under a sink, I'd use a cord
and plug which makes everything easier.

The one we had at the store came in the box with a cord and plug. The
problem for us was that it was a 5-20 plug and we didn't have any 5-20
receptacles. We did have a 20a circuit but it had a 5-15 receptacle
on it. I changed the plug. (it was rented space and I wasn't going to
screw with their circuit)
If it was a "small" unit that comes with a cord - plug it in - to
the correct outlet. The only "small" "plug-in" units I can find are
1440 watt 15 amp.(2.5 gallon POU)

A 1500 watt would have a 20 amp plug on it if it was available as a
plug-in - a 6 gallon, most likely. Anything bigger would need 30 amp
plug -never seen one up here in Canada -

Bet YOURS was a 1500 watt 6 gallon unit - right GF?

The OP only said his was a 2000 watt unit. I'm guessing 15 OR 20
GALLON - and not supplied with a plug.

Electrical code 422.16(A)
110.3

it will be in the listed instructions if the appliance is intended to
be cord and plug connected, most larger appliances would not meet
this.

You can read the code here.
https://www2.iccsafe.org/states/Phoe...stallation.pdf

If the device does not come with a cord - it is not generally
"listed" for plug and cord connection.

This water heater was 1920w and it did come with a factory 5-20 (20a)
plug. (late 80s)
I doubt the manufacturing tolerance on these elements is +/- 5% so
this is just a labeling issue.
Likely no longer available due to code changes. Not available up
here anyway.

What code change would that be?
don't know of any - mabee just better compliance? Don't know how you
were able to buy nonconforming equipment, or if you or someone else
modified it contrary to code. That practice appears to be rampant in
the USA. Even the president figures laws don't apply to him.


Having been in the computer manufacturing buisiness during that time
period I KNOW the majority of our competition was not compliant to
FCC,DOT, ULC, or CSA standards of the time. Didn't matter if they were
American, CXanadian or Taiwanese. If they were Mainland Chinese the
almost certainly were not.

They were sold with impunity.
Doesn't make it right,

We spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on compliance, inspections,
certifications, etc, even getting "special inspections" from Ontario
Hydro for custom and one-off models to make them legal.

There is nothing non-compliant about a 1920 watt appliance cord with a
5-20 plug on it. (even in the 2017 code)

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 06:55:10 -0500, Donald Trumpf
wrote:

On 12/20/18 12:13 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
Likely no longer available due to code changes. Not available up
here anyway.

Maybe you can sneak one across the border?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Pe...14U0/204318371

That is a 1440W heater with a 5-15 plug on it but the same code
applies.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 14:08:31 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 03:09:13 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 01:17:05 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 00:13:09 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 23:27:24 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 22:40:49 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:11:36 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 06:38:25 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 5:42:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 01:07:46 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:05:32 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 04:36:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.

What is he going to connect the 4th wire to?
This is a 120v water heater.
A hot, a neutral and a ground.

I guess you didn't read his post or the couple where I commented on it.
He said he was installing one 20A receptacle too. That lead to the problems
with breaker sizing an Edison circuit to support both. And now that I think
about it, maybe there is a more fundamental problem? Can you use an Edison
circuit to support both a hard wired load like a water heater and a
receptacle? I've only seen them used for receptacles.

There is nothing wrong with Multiwire circuits feeding one receptacle
and one piece of fixed in place equipment. He can also protect it with
a handle tied pair of breakers and they do not have to be the same
size. As has been stated several times a 20a breaker would work here.
I would not have a serious problem with 12ga wire but he already
bought the 10.
What is he using for a disconnect if this is not cord and plug?
Well, cord and plug would be EXTREMELY out of the ordinary,

Not for 120 volt units.

In fact, for a small 120V WH, a cord and plug might be the preferred
solution instead of a disconnect. If it's easily accessible and doesn't
need a disconnect, I'd hard wire it. If it's in a location that needs
a disconnect and isn't so accessible, eg under a sink, I'd use a cord
and plug which makes everything easier.

The one we had at the store came in the box with a cord and plug. The
problem for us was that it was a 5-20 plug and we didn't have any 5-20
receptacles. We did have a 20a circuit but it had a 5-15 receptacle
on it. I changed the plug. (it was rented space and I wasn't going to
screw with their circuit)
If it was a "small" unit that comes with a cord - plug it in - to
the correct outlet. The only "small" "plug-in" units I can find are
1440 watt 15 amp.(2.5 gallon POU)

A 1500 watt would have a 20 amp plug on it if it was available as a
plug-in - a 6 gallon, most likely. Anything bigger would need 30 amp
plug -never seen one up here in Canada -

Bet YOURS was a 1500 watt 6 gallon unit - right GF?

The OP only said his was a 2000 watt unit. I'm guessing 15 OR 20
GALLON - and not supplied with a plug.

Electrical code 422.16(A)
110.3

it will be in the listed instructions if the appliance is intended to
be cord and plug connected, most larger appliances would not meet
this.

You can read the code here.
https://www2.iccsafe.org/states/Phoe...stallation.pdf

If the device does not come with a cord - it is not generally
"listed" for plug and cord connection.

This water heater was 1920w and it did come with a factory 5-20 (20a)
plug. (late 80s)
I doubt the manufacturing tolerance on these elements is +/- 5% so
this is just a labeling issue.
Likely no longer available due to code changes. Not available up
here anyway.

What code change would that be?
don't know of any - mabee just better compliance? Don't know how you
were able to buy nonconforming equipment, or if you or someone else
modified it contrary to code. That practice appears to be rampant in
the USA. Even the president figures laws don't apply to him.


Having been in the computer manufacturing buisiness during that time
period I KNOW the majority of our competition was not compliant to
FCC,DOT, ULC, or CSA standards of the time. Didn't matter if they were
American, CXanadian or Taiwanese. If they were Mainland Chinese the
almost certainly were not.

They were sold with impunity.
Doesn't make it right,

We spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on compliance, inspections,
certifications, etc, even getting "special inspections" from Ontario
Hydro for custom and one-off models to make them legal.

There is nothing non-compliant about a 1920 watt appliance cord with a
5-20 plug on it. (even in the 2017 code)
There is if it is not "listed" with the cord.
In most cases that means "supplied with" the cord.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 06:55:10 -0500, Donald Trumpf
wrote:

On 12/20/18 12:13 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
Likely no longer available due to code changes. Not available up
here anyway.

Maybe you can sneak one across the border?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Pe...14U0/204318371
Mr Trumpf can't read - obviously.

I noted that the 1440watt unit WAS available with the cord - and was
the biggest, highest wattage unit that WAS - so no, I don't need to
"sneak" one across the border.

However, if it does not have the required Canadian certifications,
openly bringing it across the boarder is stillno problem - but it IS
illegal to connect it to the Canadian Grid and use it.

If it has the required certifications it is fully legal - and most
likely also available from the Canadian Home Despot - or Lowes, or
some other similar source.

We have a 1440 watt unit at the hangar - and yes, it IS cord
connected. 2.5 Yankee gallon capacity "point of use" in the washroom.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:18:35 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 14:08:31 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 03:09:13 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 01:17:05 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 00:13:09 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 23:27:24 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 22:40:49 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:11:36 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 06:38:25 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 at 5:42:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 01:07:46 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:05:32 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 04:36:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 1:00:00 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:33:13 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 12/16/18 3:16 PM, trader_4 wrote:

I'm using 10 gauge wire. Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge. Hot, hot, neutral
and ground. $1.96 per foot to be installed into 1/2" PVC conduit as the main
part of the run is outdoors. Metal Clad can be used outdoor only if protected.
PVC can be used indoors, outdoors and underground.

I thought I was missing something there. On another thing that got no response,
did you see where he said he bought the wire already and it's 3 conductors?
He said he's doing the WH and a 20A receptacle. I don't see how you can do
that to code. The problem is with 3 conductors, it's an Edison circuit.
So, it has to have a double pole breaker. If he uses a 20A double pole,
then he's not code compliant with the WH, though we agree that it's so close
to being legal, that it wouldn't bother us. If he uses a 25A double pole,
then he's Kosher with the WH, but then he has a single 20A receptacle on a
25A circuit, which isn't allowed either. Hope he can take that wire back
and get 4 conductor, unless I'm missing something. Funny how these simple
things can get complicated.

Four conductors.
Quote: Purchased 20 feet 4 x 10 gauge Hot, hot, neutral and ground.

What is he going to connect the 4th wire to?
This is a 120v water heater.
A hot, a neutral and a ground.

I guess you didn't read his post or the couple where I commented on it.
He said he was installing one 20A receptacle too. That lead to the problems
with breaker sizing an Edison circuit to support both. And now that I think
about it, maybe there is a more fundamental problem? Can you use an Edison
circuit to support both a hard wired load like a water heater and a
receptacle? I've only seen them used for receptacles.

There is nothing wrong with Multiwire circuits feeding one receptacle
and one piece of fixed in place equipment. He can also protect it with
a handle tied pair of breakers and they do not have to be the same
size. As has been stated several times a 20a breaker would work here.
I would not have a serious problem with 12ga wire but he already
bought the 10.
What is he using for a disconnect if this is not cord and plug?
Well, cord and plug would be EXTREMELY out of the ordinary,

Not for 120 volt units.

In fact, for a small 120V WH, a cord and plug might be the preferred
solution instead of a disconnect. If it's easily accessible and doesn't
need a disconnect, I'd hard wire it. If it's in a location that needs
a disconnect and isn't so accessible, eg under a sink, I'd use a cord
and plug which makes everything easier.

The one we had at the store came in the box with a cord and plug. The
problem for us was that it was a 5-20 plug and we didn't have any 5-20
receptacles. We did have a 20a circuit but it had a 5-15 receptacle
on it. I changed the plug. (it was rented space and I wasn't going to
screw with their circuit)
If it was a "small" unit that comes with a cord - plug it in - to
the correct outlet. The only "small" "plug-in" units I can find are
1440 watt 15 amp.(2.5 gallon POU)

A 1500 watt would have a 20 amp plug on it if it was available as a
plug-in - a 6 gallon, most likely. Anything bigger would need 30 amp
plug -never seen one up here in Canada -

Bet YOURS was a 1500 watt 6 gallon unit - right GF?

The OP only said his was a 2000 watt unit. I'm guessing 15 OR 20
GALLON - and not supplied with a plug.

Electrical code 422.16(A)
110.3

it will be in the listed instructions if the appliance is intended to
be cord and plug connected, most larger appliances would not meet
this.

You can read the code here.
https://www2.iccsafe.org/states/Phoe...stallation.pdf

If the device does not come with a cord - it is not generally
"listed" for plug and cord connection.

This water heater was 1920w and it did come with a factory 5-20 (20a)
plug. (late 80s)
I doubt the manufacturing tolerance on these elements is +/- 5% so
this is just a labeling issue.
Likely no longer available due to code changes. Not available up
here anyway.

What code change would that be?
don't know of any - mabee just better compliance? Don't know how you
were able to buy nonconforming equipment, or if you or someone else
modified it contrary to code. That practice appears to be rampant in
the USA. Even the president figures laws don't apply to him.


Having been in the computer manufacturing buisiness during that time
period I KNOW the majority of our competition was not compliant to
FCC,DOT, ULC, or CSA standards of the time. Didn't matter if they were
American, CXanadian or Taiwanese. If they were Mainland Chinese the
almost certainly were not.

They were sold with impunity.
Doesn't make it right,

We spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on compliance, inspections,
certifications, etc, even getting "special inspections" from Ontario
Hydro for custom and one-off models to make them legal.

There is nothing non-compliant about a 1920 watt appliance cord with a
5-20 plug on it. (even in the 2017 code)
There is if it is not "listed" with the cord.
In most cases that means "supplied with" the cord.

No that just means they submitted that model for testing and it passed
with a cord. As long as that testing exists you can add a cord to that
model in the field. It happens all the time with disposals and dish
washers. Theoretically you need the "kit" from the manufacturer but if
that was enforced, selling plugs would be illegal.
Nothing is technically "listed" if you change the plug.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:03:28 -0500, wrote:


There is nothing non-compliant about a 1920 watt appliance cord with a
5-20 plug on it. (even in the 2017 code)
There is if it is not "listed" with the cord.
In most cases that means "supplied with" the cord.

No that just means they submitted that model for testing and it passed
with a cord. As long as that testing exists you can add a cord to that
model in the field. It happens all the time with disposals and dish
washers. Theoretically you need the "kit" from the manufacturer but if
that was enforced, selling plugs would be illegal.
Nothing is technically "listed" if you change the plug.


I stand behind my statement that in "most" cases something "listed"
for plug and cord connection comes "with" the cord.

Didn't say "always" comes with the cord.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:16:16 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:03:28 -0500, wrote:


There is nothing non-compliant about a 1920 watt appliance cord with a
5-20 plug on it. (even in the 2017 code)
There is if it is not "listed" with the cord.
In most cases that means "supplied with" the cord.

No that just means they submitted that model for testing and it passed
with a cord. As long as that testing exists you can add a cord to that
model in the field. It happens all the time with disposals and dish
washers. Theoretically you need the "kit" from the manufacturer but if
that was enforced, selling plugs would be illegal.
Nothing is technically "listed" if you change the plug.


I stand behind my statement that in "most" cases something "listed"
for plug and cord connection comes "with" the cord.

Didn't say "always" comes with the cord.
The 1920w heater we had did come with the cord.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:16:16 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:03:28 -0500, wrote:


There is nothing non-compliant about a 1920 watt appliance cord with a
5-20 plug on it. (even in the 2017 code)
There is if it is not "listed" with the cord.
In most cases that means "supplied with" the cord.

No that just means they submitted that model for testing and it passed
with a cord. As long as that testing exists you can add a cord to that
model in the field. It happens all the time with disposals and dish
washers. Theoretically you need the "kit" from the manufacturer but if
that was enforced, selling plugs would be illegal.
Nothing is technically "listed" if you change the plug.


I stand behind my statement that in "most" cases something "listed"
for plug and cord connection comes "with" the cord.

Didn't say "always" comes with the cord.

Electric dryers pretty much never come with the cord.

On 12/21/18 9:17 AM, wrote:

[snip]

Electric dryers pretty much never come with the cord.

I know mine didn't. Maybe that has something to do with the fast that
some houses have 10-30 outlets and some have 14-30.

--
4 days until the winter celebration (Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Know god, no peace.... no god, know peace."

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:17:17 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:16:16 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:03:28 -0500, wrote:


There is nothing non-compliant about a 1920 watt appliance cord with a
5-20 plug on it. (even in the 2017 code)
There is if it is not "listed" with the cord.
In most cases that means "supplied with" the cord.

No that just means they submitted that model for testing and it passed
with a cord. As long as that testing exists you can add a cord to that
model in the field. It happens all the time with disposals and dish
washers. Theoretically you need the "kit" from the manufacturer but if
that was enforced, selling plugs would be illegal.
Nothing is technically "listed" if you change the plug.


I stand behind my statement that in "most" cases something "listed"
for plug and cord connection comes "with" the cord.

Didn't say "always" comes with the cord.
The 1920w heater we had did come with the cord.

Then it's a no brainer. It's legal with the original plug and cord,
plugged into the proper outlet on a dedicated circuit.

Getting a replacement for it "may" be a problem in the future - may
not. If you can't get a replacement, hard wiring to the circuit in the
outlet box, using a properly rated switch for a disconnect is pretty
simple.

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:17:58 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:16:16 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:03:28 -0500, wrote:


There is nothing non-compliant about a 1920 watt appliance cord with a
5-20 plug on it. (even in the 2017 code)
There is if it is not "listed" with the cord.
In most cases that means "supplied with" the cord.

No that just means they submitted that model for testing and it passed
with a cord. As long as that testing exists you can add a cord to that
model in the field. It happens all the time with disposals and dish
washers. Theoretically you need the "kit" from the manufacturer but if
that was enforced, selling plugs would be illegal.
Nothing is technically "listed" if you change the plug.


I stand behind my statement that in "most" cases something "listed"
for plug and cord connection comes "with" the cord.

Didn't say "always" comes with the cord.

Electric dryers pretty much never come with the cord.
I dont think you can buy one in Canada without the cord - which
virtually always comes attached - and by Canadian code cannot be hard
wired.
Same with a freestanding range.

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:18:31 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/21/18 9:17 AM, wrote:

[snip]

Electric dryers pretty much never come with the cord.

I know mine didn't. Maybe that has something to do with the fast that
some houses have 10-30 outlets and some have 14-30.
Current Canadian code requires the 4 wire plug.
My last 2 came with cords.

On Friday, December 21, 2018 at 2:15:52 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:17:17 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:16:16 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:03:28 -0500, wrote:


There is nothing non-compliant about a 1920 watt appliance cord with a
5-20 plug on it. (even in the 2017 code)
There is if it is not "listed" with the cord.
In most cases that means "supplied with" the cord.

No that just means they submitted that model for testing and it passed
with a cord. As long as that testing exists you can add a cord to that
model in the field. It happens all the time with disposals and dish
washers. Theoretically you need the "kit" from the manufacturer but if
that was enforced, selling plugs would be illegal.
Nothing is technically "listed" if you change the plug.


I stand behind my statement that in "most" cases something "listed"
for plug and cord connection comes "with" the cord.

Didn't say "always" comes with the cord.
The 1920w heater we had did come with the cord.

Then it's a no brainer. It's legal with the original plug and cord,
plugged into the proper outlet on a dedicated circuit.

Getting a replacement for it "may" be a problem in the future - may
not. If you can't get a replacement, hard wiring to the circuit in the
outlet box, using a properly rated switch for a disconnect is pretty
simple.

For Christs sake, it's a cord for a small water heater. If it needs
a new cord, there are plenty available. WTF would you do, buy a
replacement only from the manufacturer for $40 and wait two weeks?
Resubmit the whole thing to Underwriters for approval to use another
cord?

On Friday, December 21, 2018 at 2:26:10 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:18:31 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/21/18 9:17 AM, wrote:

[snip]

Electric dryers pretty much never come with the cord.

I know mine didn't. Maybe that has something to do with the fast that
some houses have 10-30 outlets and some have 14-30.
Current Canadian code requires the 4 wire plug.
My last 2 came with cords.

So if you have an older 3 wire receptacle, you have to run a new
circuit? That must be swell. $350 for a new dryer, $2,000 for
electrician for new circuit.

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 14:21:41 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:17:58 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:16:16 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:03:28 -0500, wrote:


There is nothing non-compliant about a 1920 watt appliance cord with a
5-20 plug on it. (even in the 2017 code)
There is if it is not "listed" with the cord.
In most cases that means "supplied with" the cord.

No that just means they submitted that model for testing and it passed
with a cord. As long as that testing exists you can add a cord to that
model in the field. It happens all the time with disposals and dish
washers. Theoretically you need the "kit" from the manufacturer but if
that was enforced, selling plugs would be illegal.
Nothing is technically "listed" if you change the plug.


I stand behind my statement that in "most" cases something "listed"
for plug and cord connection comes "with" the cord.

Didn't say "always" comes with the cord.

Electric dryers pretty much never come with the cord.
I dont think you can buy one in Canada without the cord - which
virtually always comes attached - and by Canadian code cannot be hard
wired.
Same with a freestanding range.

How do they deal with the 3 wire vs 4 wire receptacle?

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 14:25:58 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:18:31 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/21/18 9:17 AM, wrote:

[snip]

Electric dryers pretty much never come with the cord.

I know mine didn't. Maybe that has something to do with the fast that
some houses have 10-30 outlets and some have 14-30.
Current Canadian code requires the 4 wire plug.
My last 2 came with cords.

So you just paid for a cord you couldn't use and you were still
connecting a cord half the time.

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:59:25 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 14:21:41 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:17:58 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:16:16 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:03:28 -0500, wrote:


There is nothing non-compliant about a 1920 watt appliance cord with a
5-20 plug on it. (even in the 2017 code)
There is if it is not "listed" with the cord.
In most cases that means "supplied with" the cord.

No that just means they submitted that model for testing and it passed
with a cord. As long as that testing exists you can add a cord to that
model in the field. It happens all the time with disposals and dish
washers. Theoretically you need the "kit" from the manufacturer but if
that was enforced, selling plugs would be illegal.
Nothing is technically "listed" if you change the plug.


I stand behind my statement that in "most" cases something "listed"
for plug and cord connection comes "with" the cord.

Didn't say "always" comes with the cord.

Electric dryers pretty much never come with the cord.
I dont think you can buy one in Canada without the cord - which
virtually always comes attached - and by Canadian code cannot be hard
wired.
Same with a freestanding range.

How do they deal with the 3 wire vs 4 wire receptacle?
They are "supposed to be" replaced and rewired.
However in a house built prior to 2000 (3 wire) it is slill legal to
replace the 4 wire cord with a 3 wire.

Another (relatively common) "fix" that has been done a lot is
replacing the 3 wire outlet with a 4 wire outlet with either the
neutal and safety tied together (put a label on it saying "no safety
ground" or (when wired with a cable with 3 insulated conductors)
putting the "ground" wire to neutral and adding a "safety ground" to a
water pipe.

Not code compliant but no worse than the original 3 wire setup,
which is "grandfathered" and also not "code compliant"

Then there are quite a few that WERE wired with 3 conductor plus
ground and the neutral was either not connected or tied to the ground
pin on the 3 pin to start with. Simply replace the 3 wire with a 4
wire outlet and you are "current code compliant"

I know my dad, an electrician, generally used 3 wire plus ground
"drier cable" (10/3) similar to the 8/3 and 6/3 "stove cable" He
retired before the code change in 2000.
Neither driers or ranges have been legally hardwired here since the
mid/late sixties from what I remember.

About the only 220 wiring he did with 2 wire was water heaters and
baseboard electric heat. Back before the "color coded" plastic cable
(red for 240 volt heating circuits) covers, 2 wire black/red conductor
cable was virtually unheard of around here, so when using 2 wire 220
it was required to paint (or tape) both ends of the white wire black
(or red). Miss it and the inspector gave you a defect. Simpler (if
more expensive) to just use 3 wire and tie off the neutral. Today
black or red heat shrink is the "acceptable" way to re-mark the white
as "live" when required.

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 17:01:02 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 14:25:58 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:18:31 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/21/18 9:17 AM, wrote:

[snip]

Electric dryers pretty much never come with the cord.

I know mine didn't. Maybe that has something to do with the fast that
some houses have 10-30 outlets and some have 14-30.
Current Canadian code requires the 4 wire plug.
My last 2 came with cords.

So you just paid for a cord you couldn't use and you were still
connecting a cord half the time.


No. Read my last post - and my house, built back in '74 had a 3 wire
drier plug on a 3 wire plus ground cable - whern I got the new drier I
simply replaced the outlet. That way I only had to "fix" it once - as
it is very unlikely the code would ever "revert" to using 3 terminal
outlets.

The 3 wire outlet went to the garage for my welder/ box heater. (all
of which are straight 240 volt) My old Emerson welder had a 120 volt
(replacement?) fan which the previous owner had (apparently)
installed - connected from one line side to case ground -

The outlet has since been replaced with a 4 pin and the old Emmerson
180 replaced with a Lincoln 250 AC/DC tombstone. My ols 12- volt
compressor motor was replaced with a 240 motor with 4 pin plug. The
cord from the old (first 4 wire) drier went on the 4500 watt "box
heater" so all my 240 volt stuff fits the same outlet without
adapters, and I have a "splitter" box that plugs into my 240 volt
welder extention cable to allow me to get 2 circuits out to the shed
or yard when I need to run power tools out there (led solar powered
lights in the shed) - and I can use the same cables/adapters to
connect to my 8Kw generator if required. (with an adapter to the 240
voilt 30 amp twist-lock plug on the generator)
So, rather than having paid for cords I didn't need, it just saved me
buying one more cord for my other stuff.

For testing 3KVA UPS units I also built another "splitter box" with 2
120 volt 20 amp twist-lock outlets that plugs into the
compressor/welder plug.

I can connect any of my 240 volt stuff to the house or generator,
as well as connect my generator to the house (interlock) panel using
the same cords and adapters.

On Friday, December 21, 2018 at 10:20:46 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 17:01:02 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 14:25:58 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:18:31 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/21/18 9:17 AM, wrote:

[snip]

Electric dryers pretty much never come with the cord.

I know mine didn't. Maybe that has something to do with the fast that
some houses have 10-30 outlets and some have 14-30.
Current Canadian code requires the 4 wire plug.
My last 2 came with cords.

So you just paid for a cord you couldn't use and you were still
connecting a cord half the time.


No. Read my last post - and my house, built back in '74 had a 3 wire
drier plug on a 3 wire plus ground cable - whern I got the new drier I
simply replaced the outlet. That way I only had to "fix" it once - as
it is very unlikely the code would ever "revert" to using 3 terminal
outlets.

How do you legally replace an older 3 wire receptacle with a 4 wire one?
Here in the USA the only way you could do that in almost all cases
would be to run a new
circuit. In your special case, it sounds like you had a 4 wire cable
already run, so it was trivial. But that isn't the common case. If you
have an older 3 wire receptacle, it;s going to have a 3 wire cable.
So, then what? In Canada is it legal to change the cord on the new
dryer to 3 wire? Or do you have to run a new circuit?

On Friday, December 21, 2018 at 9:54:22 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:59:25 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 14:21:41 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:17:58 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:16:16 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:03:28 -0500, wrote:


There is nothing non-compliant about a 1920 watt appliance cord with a
5-20 plug on it. (even in the 2017 code)
There is if it is not "listed" with the cord.
In most cases that means "supplied with" the cord.

No that just means they submitted that model for testing and it passed
with a cord. As long as that testing exists you can add a cord to that
model in the field. It happens all the time with disposals and dish
washers. Theoretically you need the "kit" from the manufacturer but if
that was enforced, selling plugs would be illegal.
Nothing is technically "listed" if you change the plug.


I stand behind my statement that in "most" cases something "listed"
for plug and cord connection comes "with" the cord.

Didn't say "always" comes with the cord.

Electric dryers pretty much never come with the cord.
I dont think you can buy one in Canada without the cord - which
virtually always comes attached - and by Canadian code cannot be hard
wired.
Same with a freestanding range.

How do they deal with the 3 wire vs 4 wire receptacle?
They are "supposed to be" replaced and rewired.
However in a house built prior to 2000 (3 wire) it is slill legal to
replace the 4 wire cord with a 3 wire.

Another (relatively common) "fix" that has been done a lot is
replacing the 3 wire outlet with a 4 wire outlet with either the
neutal and safety tied together (put a label on it saying "no safety
ground" or (when wired with a cable with 3 insulated conductors)
putting the "ground" wire to neutral and adding a "safety ground" to a
water pipe.

Not code compliant but no worse than the original 3 wire setup,
which is "grandfathered" and also not "code compliant"

It is worse, because now you have people apparently coming up with their
own "fixes" that are not defined by code, rather than just allow the
use of a 3 wire cord if you have an existing 3 wire receptacle.

On Sat, 22 Dec 2018 07:27:43 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, December 21, 2018 at 9:54:22 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:59:25 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 14:21:41 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:17:58 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:16:16 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:03:28 -0500, wrote:


There is nothing non-compliant about a 1920 watt appliance cord with a
5-20 plug on it. (even in the 2017 code)
There is if it is not "listed" with the cord.
In most cases that means "supplied with" the cord.

No that just means they submitted that model for testing and it passed
with a cord. As long as that testing exists you can add a cord to that
model in the field. It happens all the time with disposals and dish
washers. Theoretically you need the "kit" from the manufacturer but if
that was enforced, selling plugs would be illegal.
Nothing is technically "listed" if you change the plug.


I stand behind my statement that in "most" cases something "listed"
for plug and cord connection comes "with" the cord.

Didn't say "always" comes with the cord.

Electric dryers pretty much never come with the cord.
I dont think you can buy one in Canada without the cord - which
virtually always comes attached - and by Canadian code cannot be hard
wired.
Same with a freestanding range.

How do they deal with the 3 wire vs 4 wire receptacle?
They are "supposed to be" replaced and rewired.
However in a house built prior to 2000 (3 wire) it is slill legal to
replace the 4 wire cord with a 3 wire.

Another (relatively common) "fix" that has been done a lot is
replacing the 3 wire outlet with a 4 wire outlet with either the
neutal and safety tied together (put a label on it saying "no safety
ground" or (when wired with a cable with 3 insulated conductors)
putting the "ground" wire to neutral and adding a "safety ground" to a
water pipe.

Not code compliant but no worse than the original 3 wire setup,
which is "grandfathered" and also not "code compliant"

It is worse, because now you have people apparently coming up with their
own "fixes" that are not defined by code, rather than just allow the
use of a 3 wire cord if you have an existing 3 wire receptacle.



It is actually fairly common to have 3 wire + ground feeding a dryer
or range outlet since the 250.60 said the 3d wire is a "neutral" being
also used as a ground so it must be an insulated white wire. It is
pretty hard to find 3 insulated wires in a cable without a ground.
OTOH the exception to the exception was you can use type SE cable
without an insulated neutral to feed a dryer or range.
Since aluminum SE cable was cheaper than copper RX you were likely to
see SE.
The usual way RX would be used was the white neutral went to the
center terminal on the receptacle and the bare ground went to the box
or back strap on a molded receptacle ... if they didn't just cut it
off.

There was an interesting little conundrum there that largely got
ignored. This circuit was required to originate in the service
disconnect enclosure (service equipment) which was usually the main
panel so nobody really paid that much attention. The problem arises
when someone adds an upstream panel and now that circuit is fed from a
sub and stops being legal, even on the pre 1996 code.

On Saturday, December 22, 2018 at 2:10:13 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 22 Dec 2018 07:27:43 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, December 21, 2018 at 9:54:22 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:59:25 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 14:21:41 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:17:58 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:16:16 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:03:28 -0500, wrote:


There is nothing non-compliant about a 1920 watt appliance cord with a
5-20 plug on it. (even in the 2017 code)
There is if it is not "listed" with the cord.
In most cases that means "supplied with" the cord.

No that just means they submitted that model for testing and it passed
with a cord. As long as that testing exists you can add a cord to that
model in the field. It happens all the time with disposals and dish
washers. Theoretically you need the "kit" from the manufacturer but if
that was enforced, selling plugs would be illegal.
Nothing is technically "listed" if you change the plug.


I stand behind my statement that in "most" cases something "listed"
for plug and cord connection comes "with" the cord.

Didn't say "always" comes with the cord.

Electric dryers pretty much never come with the cord.
I dont think you can buy one in Canada without the cord - which
virtually always comes attached - and by Canadian code cannot be hard
wired.
Same with a freestanding range.

How do they deal with the 3 wire vs 4 wire receptacle?
They are "supposed to be" replaced and rewired.
However in a house built prior to 2000 (3 wire) it is slill legal to
replace the 4 wire cord with a 3 wire.

Another (relatively common) "fix" that has been done a lot is
replacing the 3 wire outlet with a 4 wire outlet with either the
neutal and safety tied together (put a label on it saying "no safety
ground" or (when wired with a cable with 3 insulated conductors)
putting the "ground" wire to neutral and adding a "safety ground" to a
water pipe.

Not code compliant but no worse than the original 3 wire setup,
which is "grandfathered" and also not "code compliant"

It is worse, because now you have people apparently coming up with their
own "fixes" that are not defined by code, rather than just allow the
use of a 3 wire cord if you have an existing 3 wire receptacle.



It is actually fairly common to have 3 wire + ground feeding a dryer
or range outlet since the 250.60 said the 3d wire is a "neutral" being
also used as a ground so it must be an insulated white wire.

But then why wouldn't you have put in a 4 wire receptacle, which is
clearly better, instead of a 3 wire one? I thought the origin of
the shared neutral and ground was to save an extra wire?

On Sat, 22 Dec 2018 12:30:17 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, December 22, 2018 at 2:10:13 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 22 Dec 2018 07:27:43 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, December 21, 2018 at 9:54:22 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 16:59:25 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 14:21:41 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:17:58 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:16:16 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:03:28 -0500, wrote:


There is nothing non-compliant about a 1920 watt appliance cord with a
5-20 plug on it. (even in the 2017 code)
There is if it is not "listed" with the cord.
In most cases that means "supplied with" the cord.

No that just means they submitted that model for testing and it passed
with a cord. As long as that testing exists you can add a cord to that
model in the field. It happens all the time with disposals and dish
washers. Theoretically you need the "kit" from the manufacturer but if
that was enforced, selling plugs would be illegal.
Nothing is technically "listed" if you change the plug.


I stand behind my statement that in "most" cases something "listed"
for plug and cord connection comes "with" the cord.

Didn't say "always" comes with the cord.

Electric dryers pretty much never come with the cord.
I dont think you can buy one in Canada without the cord - which
virtually always comes attached - and by Canadian code cannot be hard
wired.
Same with a freestanding range.

How do they deal with the 3 wire vs 4 wire receptacle?
They are "supposed to be" replaced and rewired.
However in a house built prior to 2000 (3 wire) it is slill legal to
replace the 4 wire cord with a 3 wire.

Another (relatively common) "fix" that has been done a lot is
replacing the 3 wire outlet with a 4 wire outlet with either the
neutal and safety tied together (put a label on it saying "no safety
ground" or (when wired with a cable with 3 insulated conductors)
putting the "ground" wire to neutral and adding a "safety ground" to a
water pipe.

Not code compliant but no worse than the original 3 wire setup,
which is "grandfathered" and also not "code compliant"

It is worse, because now you have people apparently coming up with their
own "fixes" that are not defined by code, rather than just allow the
use of a 3 wire cord if you have an existing 3 wire receptacle.



It is actually fairly common to have 3 wire + ground feeding a dryer
or range outlet since the 250.60 said the 3d wire is a "neutral" being
also used as a ground so it must be an insulated white wire.

But then why wouldn't you have put in a 4 wire receptacle, which is
clearly better, instead of a 3 wire one? I thought the origin of
the shared neutral and ground was to save an extra wire?


Until the 90s, dryers came with a 3 prong plug.
As I said it is very common to see them wired with 8ga aluminous SE
cable. That was significantly cheaper than 10-3 RX particularly when
copper prices spiked in the late 60s.
That was when you were seeing aluminum wire used all over tho.

The original exception for dryers and ranges was during WWII tho when
they were trying to save copper. As Phil Simmonds said in his
proposal to the 96 code to eliminate that loophole, "the war is over".