Problem: I am getting shocks on the aluminum siding of my garage.

Background:
I have a single 12/2 romex wire running from from my house feeding my
garage. In the garage, it goes into a junction box, where the lights
for the garage are connected. The feed into the junction box is only 2
wires, there is no ground. I consulted an electrician (relative) and
he suggested to run a copper wire (6 wire?) from the junction box to a
grounding rod, and sink the rod into the ground. I did this, and am
still getting shocks. I checked where the feed enters the garage,
thinking maybe the wire is nicked, but it is not. Any other
suggestions, before I replace the feed wire (underground)?

Possibly a fastener of the siding itself has punctured an NM cable.

bill



wrote in message
ups.com...
Problem: I am getting shocks on the aluminum siding of my garage.

Background:
I have a single 12/2 romex wire running from from my house feeding my
garage. In the garage, it goes into a junction box, where the lights
for the garage are connected. The feed into the junction box is only 2
wires, there is no ground. I consulted an electrician (relative) and
he suggested to run a copper wire (6 wire?) from the junction box to a
grounding rod, and sink the rod into the ground. I did this, and am
still getting shocks. I checked where the feed enters the garage,
thinking maybe the wire is nicked, but it is not. Any other
suggestions, before I replace the feed wire (underground)?

bill a wrote:
Possibly a fastener of the siding itself has punctured an NM cable.

bill

Sidenote: all wiring in the garage has been pulled, and the single
wire feeding the lights is fastened to a single stud inside the garage.

wrote:
bill a wrote:
Possibly a fastener of the siding itself has punctured an NM cable.

bill

Sidenote: all wiring in the garage has been pulled, and the single
wire feeding the lights is fastened to a single stud inside the
garage.

The first thing you do is make sure the shocks are coming from this
source. Kill the power to the wire from the house and see if you're
still getting the shocks. If you are, then suspect a buried service
that you don't know about.

Chip C

I do not get the shocks when killing power to the garage, via the
appropriate breaker in the panel.

I am not sure if putting in a separate ground rod is up to code. I
suspect it is not, but others can tell you better.

Since you say the feed comes underground, I assume that this is a
detached garage, entirely separate from the main house. And when you
say "12/2 romex", I assume you mean direct burial UF cable, typically
gray, with heavy rubber insulation, right?

You probably have a short somewhere in your garage, not in the feed
itself. I would shut off the power to the circuit at the main panel,
then poke around with a multimeter. You should be able to see
continuity from the hot or neutral to the AL siding in your junction
box. From there, start disconnecting wires and try to pin down which
leg of the circuit has the short.

Could be someone put a nail through the siding and into the romex in
the walls. Or you got some wear or nics where a wire goes through the
siding on the way to an exterior light, or something.

-Kevin

wrote:
Problem: I am getting shocks on the aluminum siding of my garage.

Background:
I have a single 12/2 romex wire running from from my house feeding my
garage. In the garage, it goes into a junction box, where the lights
for the garage are connected. The feed into the junction box is only 2
wires, there is no ground. I consulted an electrician (relative) and
he suggested to run a copper wire (6 wire?) from the junction box to a
grounding rod, and sink the rod into the ground. I did this, and am
still getting shocks. I checked where the feed enters the garage,
thinking maybe the wire is nicked, but it is not. Any other
suggestions, before I replace the feed wire (underground)?


Check your grounds and neutrals connections back at the main box.
also continuity of your 12/2 neutral wire.
A burned or dirty connection there or bad neutral could cause power to
seek the path of least resistance back to ground, your metal siding.
Let us know what you find.
Dave

wrote in message
ups.com...
Problem: I am getting shocks on the aluminum siding of my garage.

Background:
I have a single 12/2 romex wire running from from my house feeding my
garage. In the garage, it goes into a junction box, where the lights
for the garage are connected. The feed into the junction box is only 2
wires, there is no ground. I consulted an electrician (relative) and
he suggested to run a copper wire (6 wire?) from the junction box to a
grounding rod, and sink the rod into the ground. I did this, and am
still getting shocks. I checked where the feed enters the garage,
thinking maybe the wire is nicked, but it is not. Any other
suggestions, before I replace the feed wire (underground)?

Does your relative have a vested interest in your death? (life insurance for
example)
Consider discussing electrical issues with some one else in the future.
What is described is a ground loop which is expressly prohibited by the NEC.
I will not labor the point of "supplemental grounding" because you do not
have a ground conductor.

Some one else suggested that the sheath of the romex may have been
pentertated buy a fastener for the siding. This is a good clue and may end
up leading you to the exact cause. A VOM or continuity tester on a dead
circuit may help you discover the area of the problem. Your going to have to
open secitons of the wiring until you find the problem.

Good luck finding the problem.

Basic electrical theory 101. You already confirmed that when you kill
the feed, the problem goes away. So now move to the next step.
Shut the power and at the junction box disconnect the wiring where the
feed is connected to your lights, so you isolate the problem.
Turn the power back on to see if you still get shocks.
If no, skip to step 2 at the bottom. Otherwise shut the power and
remove the feed from the junction box. It could be shorting on the
romex clamp. If you still get a shock, it's something underground.

Step 2: check your lighting circuits to see if anything is shorted.
Disconnect all the wiring and connect 1 light at a time to see where
the problem is coming from.

Many thanks, I will post back with the findings. Sorry for my na=EFvety!

wrote:
Problem: I am getting shocks on the aluminum siding of my garage.

Background:
I have a single 12/2 romex wire running from from my house feeding my
garage. In the garage, it goes into a junction box, where the lights
for the garage are connected. The feed into the junction box is only 2
wires, there is no ground. I consulted an electrician (relative) and
he suggested to run a copper wire (6 wire?) from the junction box to a
grounding rod, and sink the rod into the ground. I did this, and am
still getting shocks. I checked where the feed enters the garage,
thinking maybe the wire is nicked, but it is not. Any other
suggestions, before I replace the feed wire (underground)?


What I suspect you have is a neutral to ground fault in the wiring in
the garage. Is this a detached garage or is it part of your house?
Much of what follows is for a detached garage.

Sleeve the cable; whether existing or new; with rigid nonmetallic
conduit from the bottom of the trench to were it enters the garage all
the way to the first box to protect it from future physical damage.
Check all the metal boxes in the garage until you find the one that has
a fault between one of the current carrying conductors and the box
itself inside of it. The most likely culprits are boxes that are set in
or on the siding to mount outdoor lights on. Once you clear the fault
between the current carrying conductors and the metal box the sneak
current path to the siding will be broken. After you find and clear
the fault you should install a ground fault circuit interrupter in the
first box in the garage and feed all of the garage loads from it. This
will protect you and your family from a possibly deadly hot to ground
fault occurring later. This is the minimum you would need to do to
solve the problem.

Be advised that some wiremen intentionally attached the neutral to metal
boxes when working with nonmetallic cable before it was manufactured
with an Equipment Grounding Conductor in the cable. It was a misguided
attempt to provide a fault clearing path that has the unwanted side
effect of placing stray neutral currents on any metallic object that is
in contact with the metal boxes. If the neutrals in the garage wiring
are deliberately bonded to the metallic boxes you will need to rewire
the garage in order to clear the faults.

If you do have to rewire the garage and you are not replacing the
outside branch circuit to the garage then replace all of the boxes with
plastic boxes. Once you do that the garage wiring will be double
insulated. The insulation of the conductors and the devices provide one
layer of insulation and the plastic boxes together with the plastic
cable jacket will provide the second insulating layer. This will
markedly lower the likelihood of another fault occurring later.

Even if you decide to run a new outside branch circuit or feeder to
supply the garage you will still have to locate and clear the fault
between the current carrying conductor; either the hot or the neutral;
and one or more of the metallic boxes inside the garage.

If you do replace the outside branch circuit you should consider whether
you will need more power in the garage later. If the garage is sound
enough to support a second story or there is room for a ground level
addition then consider the possibility of a future auxiliary apartment,
shop, hot tub, swimming pool, and so forth. Once you dig a trench the
additional cost of installing conduit is very small. In order to have a
range of options you would install a two inch conduit so that a feeder
up to two hundred amperes could be installed in the future without
additional excavation.

If you actually anticipate a separate dwelling unit at the garage
location you might even want to run a three inch schedule eighty plastic
conduit so that the utility could run a service lateral to supply a
separate meter at a later date. Installing a one inch raceway for
future communications wiring would be a smart move also. If you
anticipate a future need for water or sewer to the garage then run the
piping now. Since that takes a deeper trench you could use the deeper
trench to install a better grounding electrode system.

One last thing to think about when doing trenching is that it is a good
time to improve the system grounding. If you install a feeder to the
garage then the garage will need to have it's own Grounding Electrode
System. The easiest one to install would consist of two driven rods
placed at least six feet apart. If instead of that minimum you
installed the rods by driving them into the bottom of the trench they
will then be deeper then if they were driven from the surface. The
further apart the two rods are the better they will dissipate stray
energy such as surges, spikes, and lightning. Running bare number two
copper Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC) for at least twenty feet in
the bottom of the trench will also improve the grounding electrode
system. If the rods strike hard bottom when being driven you are
allowed to lay them in a trench if it is at least thirty inches deep but
deeper is better. If there is a metal well casing or other underground
metallic piping somewhere between the house and the garage then you
would route the trench past that piping so you could bond the GEC to the
underground metal piping so the pipe can serve as an additional
grounding electrode. A metal well casing of any appreciable depth makes
a great grounding electrode.

I hope that this is helpful. Let us know what you decide and how it
works out.
--
Tom H

I don't understand why you have no ground, 12/2 Romex has a third wire
for ground, does it not?

Otherwise I argree with Mikepier

Mark

Check your grounds and neutrals connections back at the main box.
also continuity of your 12/2 neutral wire.
A burned or dirty connection there or bad neutral could cause power to
seek the path of least resistance back to ground, your metal siding.

If his neutral connection was so bad that going through siding and him was
the best path, then he would certainly notice that the lights were not very
bright!

Mark wrote:

I don't understand why you have no ground, 12/2 Romex has a third wire
for ground, does it not?

12/2 w/G does, but there certainly exists 12/2 w/o as well...

Duane Bozarth wrote:
Mark wrote:

12/2 w/G does, but there certainly exists 12/2 w/o as well...

True. My house had some ungrounded 12/2 which I have since replaced.

In article , "toller" wrote:
Check your grounds and neutrals connections back at the main box.
also continuity of your 12/2 neutral wire.
A burned or dirty connection there or bad neutral could cause power to
seek the path of least resistance back to ground, your metal siding.

If his neutral connection was so bad that going through siding and him was
the best path, then he would certainly notice that the lights were not very
bright!

It clearly was not the best path: he's still alive to ask questions.

Equally clearly, there was an alternative path; otherwise, none of the lights
would have worked at all unless someone was standing there touching the
siding.

It doesn't have to be the *best* path to get a shock off of it. It just has to
be *a* path.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

You have some good tips on locating the source of your short. I would like
to point out that every electrical circuit should have a "GROUND". In fact,
if it's a detached garage, I don't believe an under ground feed is within
code, unless it supplies a sub panel with a legitimate grounding rod buried
6-8 ft deep? Some other qualified electricians may be able to shed more
light on this.
wrote in message
ups.com...
Problem: I am getting shocks on the aluminum siding of my garage.

Background:
I have a single 12/2 romex wire running from from my house feeding my
garage. In the garage, it goes into a junction box, where the lights
for the garage are connected. The feed into the junction box is only 2
wires, there is no ground. I consulted an electrician (relative) and
he suggested to run a copper wire (6 wire?) from the junction box to a
grounding rod, and sink the rod into the ground. I did this, and am
still getting shocks. I checked where the feed enters the garage,
thinking maybe the wire is nicked, but it is not. Any other
suggestions, before I replace the feed wire (underground)?

Mark wrote:
I don't understand why you have no ground, 12/2 Romex has a third wire
for ground, does it not?

Otherwise I argree with Mikepier

Mark

When non metallic cable was first manufactured it did no have a ground
wire in the cable assembly. That includes both underground feeder, type
UF, and Nonmetallic Sheathed Cable, type NM.
--
Tom H

Beeper wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Problem: I am getting shocks on the aluminum siding of my garage.

Background:
I have a single 12/2 romex wire running from from my house feeding my
garage. In the garage, it goes into a junction box, where the lights
for the garage are connected. The feed into the junction box is only 2
wires, there is no ground. I consulted an electrician (relative) and
he suggested to run a copper wire (6 wire?) from the junction box to a
grounding rod, and sink the rod into the ground. I did this, and am
still getting shocks. I checked where the feed enters the garage,
thinking maybe the wire is nicked, but it is not. Any other
suggestions, before I replace the feed wire (underground)?

You have some good tips on locating the source of your short. I would like
to point out that every electrical circuit should have a "GROUND". In fact,
if it's a detached garage, I don't believe an under ground feed is within
code, unless it supplies a sub panel with a legitimate grounding rod buried
6-8 ft deep? Some other qualified electricians may be able to shed more
light on this.

If a structure is supplied by a single branch circuit no Grounding
Electrode System is required. There is also no requirement to have a
panel in a residential garage. A detached garage on non residential
property would have to have a building disconnecting means and one way
to provide that is to install a panel that is suitable for use as
service equipment and has a main breaker or contains six or fewer
breakers.
--
Tom H

Thanks for the info. It is good to know.
"Takoma Park Volunteer Fire Department Postmaster"
wrote in message news:0fZ7e.12981$Zn3.1026@trnddc02...
Beeper wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Problem: I am getting shocks on the aluminum siding of my garage.

Background:
I have a single 12/2 romex wire running from from my house feeding my
garage. In the garage, it goes into a junction box, where the lights
for the garage are connected. The feed into the junction box is only 2
wires, there is no ground. I consulted an electrician (relative) and
he suggested to run a copper wire (6 wire?) from the junction box to a
grounding rod, and sink the rod into the ground. I did this, and am
still getting shocks. I checked where the feed enters the garage,
thinking maybe the wire is nicked, but it is not. Any other
suggestions, before I replace the feed wire (underground)?

You have some good tips on locating the source of your short. I would
like to point out that every electrical circuit should have a "GROUND".
In fact, if it's a detached garage, I don't believe an under ground feed
is within code, unless it supplies a sub panel with a legitimate
grounding rod buried 6-8 ft deep? Some other qualified electricians may
be able to shed more light on this.

If a structure is supplied by a single branch circuit no Grounding
Electrode System is required. There is also no requirement to have a
panel in a residential garage. A detached garage on non residential
property would have to have a building disconnecting means and one way to
provide that is to install a panel that is suitable for use as service
equipment and has a main breaker or contains six or fewer breakers.
--
Tom H

Check your grounds and neutrals connections back at the main box.
also continuity of your 12/2 neutral wire.
A burned or dirty connection there or bad neutral could cause power to
seek the path of least resistance back to ground, your metal siding.

If his neutral connection was so bad that going through siding and him was
the best path, then he would certainly notice that the lights were not very
bright!