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#41
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On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:50:30 -0400, "Pop"
wrote: "TURTLE" wrote in message . .. "Luke" wrote in message ... On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 00:44:49 GMT, wrote: On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 16:50:03 -0600, Luke wrote: Our TV reception, from a roof antenna, was intermittently flaky. Trying to find the problem, I got a shock when I touched both the TV F-connector and coax cable antenna lead. So I put a tester on and to my surprise got a 75 volt reading. DVD player around to plug it into all circuits. I also get ~30 volts off the housing of an old stand mixer in the kitchen. This isn't normal, is it? NO. It's dangerous. It's gonna kill someone. Ignore the illiterate hacks Matt and Turtle aka Weasel, and get a licensed electrician in there NOW to find out what's going on, before it kills you. You have neither the tools nor the training to continue. You either have a lifted neutral, or ground, and either one can kill you, or burn your house down. BTW - I'm a licensed Master Electrician, unlike the plumber and the hack mentioned above. I'll ignore the personal attacks ;-). I know I'm beyond my abilities on this, which is why I asked, and as you suggest I was going to call an electrician first thing tomorrow morning. Just curious, what's a "lifted" ground or neutral, and why do all other appliances (computer, clocks, radio, etc.) seem to work okay? -- Luke This is Turtle. Paul Milligan above here telling of hacks is nothing but a air condtioner software salesman and has not a clue as to what your problem is. The only 120 volt item that he may work on is his razar to shave with in the morning when it will not run. Now he does know a bunch about software to tell about air conditioners and heating system as to what size you would need to install. I one of the so call hacks he speaks of have held Electrican licences for over 30 years and in the hvac business for over 40 years. Also i run my own hvac business and all paul runs is his head. Watch who you listen to on the newsgroups. TURTLE Good advice. But, whenever a person wishes to call in a contractor, I would never recommend against it. The only real problem here is the buffoon with his egocentric mouth-hole in gear without a running motor to drive it. Concensus usually wins out with most posters, so one of that ilk only causes a little momentary stress. It's also possible he's right but he's bypassing the simple things that might easily determine that an electrician isn't needed, and that it won't take digging into anything more than a light bulb or resistor to measure across in order to see what kind of current might be there. Besides that, he probably enjoys flames because he gets to show off the vocabulary his father taught him. Pop Actually, it was your mother. Moron. Click every day here to feed an animal !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
#43
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On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 08:15:19 -0500, Art Todesco
wrote: I have seen many "newer" (15 years old or so) where the power internally is derived from inverters right off the AC line. Maybe I didn't stress this clearly enough before when I said it, or maybe everyone missed it in the OP's original post : ( as I said before ) : " The thing that tells me most of all that you need an electrician is not so much the TV and AV equipment, but THE OLD FLOOR STANDING KITCEN MIXER WITH 30 V TO GROUND ON THE CHASSIS". This takes all the stuff about satellite dishes and mast amplifiers getting power off the co-ax, and amplifying TV signals, and all that other stuff, OFF THE TABLE. In many cases the, so called chassis voltage (chassis "ground"), ends up being something other than 0 volts. I have seen it to be 1/2 the line voltage. The tuner input (the 75 ohm F connector) is capacitively coupled to this internal chassis non-0 volt-"ground". It is a very small capacitor as it only has to pass high frequency TV signals in the MHz range. However, with a high impedance meter, one will read some of the 60Hz line through that capacitor. As others have stated, with a old meter, i.e. 20000 ohms/volt, you probably won't see the voltage. I would, however, make sure there is not a fault condition. 'Not being able to see it because an old meter is less accurate' doesn't give me much comfort. Click every day here to feed an animal !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
#44
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"Luke" wrote in message ... On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 23:07:14 GMT, "toller" wrote: I am strongly tempted to say that you are having fun with us. Grounded appliance (three prong) have the chassis attached to the ground. If your ground at the breaker box was broken, and the ground wires were shorted to a hot, you could get a voltage off the chassis. This would require urgent attention. But you would not get a reading off the chassis of ungrounded appliance (two prong) because they are not attached to anything. Either explain the problem in more detail, or go away. I didn't believe it at first, either :-). Yes, only two-prong appliances show hot. Grounded appliances, like the washer, dryer, stove, as best I can test, aren't hot. I had the antenna grounded to the main house electrical ground, when I disconnected that, I still get hot two-prong appliances, testing between the appliance F-connector or housing and either the antenna lead or ground on an outlet. Sorry, but this is over my head to diagnose without seeing it. It can't be induced voltage because you don't get a shock off induced voltage. It can't be a floating neutral because you would be having other serious effects (lights way too bright, lights way too dim) from a floating neutral. And it can't be from your cable system because you don't have a cable system. And that exhausts this group's suggestions. Obviously you have test more systematically to isolate the problem, but you already know that. Good luck. |
#45
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"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message ... Luke wrote: Our TV reception, from a roof antenna, was intermittently flaky. Trying to find the problem, I got a shock when I touched both the TV F-connector and coax cable antenna lead. So I put a tester on and to my surprise got a 75 volt reading. It's also 75 volts between the TV F-connector and the outlet ground plug hole or outlet screw. And, there's 75 volts between any connector on the TV and any of these grounds. I'm also getting ~40 volts off the VCR F-connector, and ~50 volts off the DVD player *housing*. I do suggest rechecking it with an older analog meter or add a 120V lamp across the circuit before testing. See what you get. I agree with those who pointed out a number of issues like floating neutral that might be involved. You don't want to mess with this kind of problem, you want to fix it and now. Best I can determine this is the case with all house circuits. I plugged the TV into several, using extension cords, and carried the DVD player around to plug it into all circuits. I also get ~30 volts off the housing of an old stand mixer in the kitchen. This isn't normal, is it? I checked as many outlets as I could get to with a GB plug-in circuit tester, and all test correct. All outlets are at 125 volts. I opened the main panel and the one subpanel to see what I could see, and all looked right, though I really don't know what I'm looking for here. What would cause "hot" appliances, and how do I track this down? Thanks! -- Joseph Meehan Dia's Muire duit Might be more than one thing wrong. I'll guess a resistive short in some appliance to ground and a partial or floating ground. Do you happen to have an electric hot water heater? A punctured heating element will use the water as a resistor and make the pipes and anything connected to them hot if they are not well grounded to the main panel ground. It's easy to check; just switch off the heater at the circuit breaker panel. Try switching other large applicances too -- stove, washer, etc. But first, why don't you pull your main breaker and then check the voltage to see if the voltage is coming from your house. It might be coming from someone else on the same cable or water line. I agree with the others that this is a potentially dangerous situation. It's O.K. to take a voltage measurement using insulated leads and you can flip circuit breakers (some people stand on a rubber mat when they are near the circuit breaker panel), but don't touch the cable connectors and something that may be live or grounded. Get some professional help if you can't find the source of the problem with simple testing. TKM |
#46
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Luke wrote:
Our TV reception, from a roof antenna, was intermittently flaky. Trying to find the problem, I got a shock when I touched both the TV F-connector and coax cable antenna lead. So I put a tester on and to my surprise got a 75 volt reading. If your antenna/cable is ungrounded, perhaps the shock was static from dry wind on the antenna and not related to your reading. It's also 75 volts between the TV F-connector and the outlet ground plug hole or outlet screw. And, there's 75 volts between any connector on the TV and any of these grounds. I'm also getting ~40 volts off the VCR F-connector, and ~50 volts off the DVD player *housing*. Best I can determine this is the case with all house circuits. I plugged the TV into several, using extension cords, and carried the DVD player around to plug it into all circuits. I also get ~30 volts off the housing of an old stand mixer in the kitchen. This isn't normal, is it? I checked as many outlets as I could get to with a GB plug-in circuit tester, and all test correct. All outlets are at 125 volts. I opened the main panel and the one subpanel to see what I could see, and all looked right, though I really don't know what I'm looking for here. What would cause "hot" appliances, and how do I track this down? Are all these readings AC? Digital meters have such high impedence that they can show the voltage metal picks up from radiated electromagnetic energy. I'd get a resistor of 20,000 ohms or so and clip it between my test leads to see if the reading dropped a lot. I'd be concerned if it didn't drop much. If it dropped a lot I'd measure current. Either way, I'd see if I got readings with all the circuit breakers turned off. Then I'd check the effect of turning on each breaker. Choreboy |
#48
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On 4 Apr 2005 17:24:12 GMT, Jim Yanik . wrote:
wrote in news What a great technical test and diagnosis. For an unemployed plumber, maybe. I don't see YOU offering anything better. Then you haven't read my posts. I gave him the best ( and only correct ) advice possible ' "You have done well to find this issue, you have done well to look at it as far as you have, now you need a pro to come in and find the problem, and see if your electrical system is safe." If your definition of 'better' is 'Here's how you fix it without any tools or knowledge', look elsewhere for your answers, other than my posts. Homey don't play that. He said "I looked at the breaker panel, but I don't know what I'm looking at". His words. Would you have me advise him on how to check all the connections and wires and breakers and busses for safety and correct operation, from my chair here across the Internet ? Do you think he could perform a correct and adequate safety inspection of his electrical service 'with just a little help from Usenet' ? Bull****. When someone says "I looked at the breaker panel, but I don't know what I'm looking at", the ONLY correct, safe, respectful, courteous response is "Slowly and carefully put the cover back on, if you took it off, and call an electrician". Anything else is hack bull****, dangerous, and liable to get someone killed. At least I haven't offered any 'advice' that will get him killed and burn his house down, as Matt has done right here today on another electrical question. Click every day here to feed an animal !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
#49
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Luke,
Our TV reception, from a roof antenna, was intermittently flaky. Trying to find the problem, I got a shock when I touched both the TV F-connector and coax cable antenna lead. So I put a tester on and to my surprise got a 75 volt reading. AC or DC voltage? Doesn't sound like a problem with the TV antenna. To check, disconnect the antenna cable and measure for voltage between the center conductor and the screw-on F-connector. You shouldn't see any voltage, or maybe a volt or two at most (induction, meter inaccuracies, etc.). If you are getting DC voltage from the coax coming from your TV antenna (not connected to anything), see if you have an antenna rotator or remote amplifier. These often get power from DC voltage sent over the coax TV cable. If that's the case, there should be an indoor transformer connected to the coax somewhere. Follow the cable back to the antenna to track it down. It's also 75 volts between the TV F-connector and the outlet ground That would lead me to believe the coax cable is grounded too, since the ground and coax connector are at the same voltage potential. I'm also getting ~40 volts off the VCR F-connector, and ~50 volts off the DVD player *housing*. I also get ~30 volts off the housing of an old stand mixer I wouldn't be too concerned about small voltages coming off the F- connectors, but you should not be getting any significant voltages off of the cases of your DVD player or stand mixer. My first guess would be a faulty electrical ground. Set your meter to AC voltage and go to a grounded electrical outlet in your house. Measure between the ground hole and each of the two "prong" holes. You should get about 100-130 volts between ground and the small "hot" slot, and you should get 0 volts between ground and the larger "neutral" slot. You should also read the same 110-120 volts between the hot and neutral slots. (You can buy inexpensive plug-in "electrical testers" at any home center to verify the wiring is connected properly). The ground and neutral should be at the same voltage potential, as they connect to the same bus bar back at the main breaker panel. If you measure more than a few volts between the ground and neutral, you could have wiring problems, either in the house somewhere, or at the breaker panel itself. Time to call an electrician. Even if the wiring is all connected properly, some old houses used metal water piping as their electrical grounds. It's possible that someone replaced plumbing at some point with plastic (non-conductive) piping. This could potentially leave you without a grounded electrical system. That's why it's not allowed by code anymore. You should have dedicated ground rods for your electrical system. Even if you have the ground rods, it's possible the wires running to them are broken somewhere. If you are getting voltages outside of the numbers mentioned above, you may have a bad meter. Install a fresh battery and/or try a different meter. If you still get wild voltages, call the power company to come check the voltage to your house. Also, be sure you are not touching the tips of the meter probes with your fingers. You can induce some wild voltage readings on sensitive meters just with your body... Anthony |
#50
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wrote: I have seen many "newer" (15 years old or so) where the power internally is derived from inverters right off the AC line. Maybe I didn't stress this clearly enough before when I said it, or maybe everyone missed it in the OP's original post : ( as I said before ) : " The thing that tells me most of all that you need an electrician is not so much the TV and AV equipment, but THE OLD FLOOR STANDING KITCEN MIXER WITH 30 V TO GROUND ON THE CHASSIS". Assuming this case and the mixer works fine (and has NO internal leakage faults). Most mixers are two wire devices. That means the mixer has power. If that's the case, i see two possibilities. either the hot and ground are reversed and the mixer uses a polarized plug, or the ground on the receptacles (which is NOT used on a two wire appliance) is NOT grounded back at the service entrance. And the op is trying to use this ground which is not really hooked up to anything for his tests. Now, either of these should be an electrician issue. Maybe the house was a older house and was upgraded from two pin to three pin sockets without actually putting in and connecting the ground wire. It would not be the first time this has happened. I think you can legally do this in some retrofit cases by using a 3 pin GFI outlet with no separate ground wire back to the service panel. Bob This takes all the stuff about satellite dishes and mast amplifiers getting power off the co-ax, and amplifying TV signals, and all that other stuff, OFF THE TABLE. In many cases the, so called chassis voltage (chassis "ground"), ends up being something other than 0 volts. I have seen it to be 1/2 the line voltage. The tuner input (the 75 ohm F connector) is capacitively coupled to this internal chassis non-0 volt-"ground". It is a very small capacitor as it only has to pass high frequency TV signals in the MHz range. However, with a high impedance meter, one will read some of the 60Hz line through that capacitor. As others have stated, with a old meter, i.e. 20000 ohms/volt, you probably won't see the voltage. I would, however, make sure there is not a fault condition. 'Not being able to see it because an old meter is less accurate' doesn't give me much comfort. Accuracy has nothing to do with it. Its the input IMPEDANCE of the volt meter. A digital fluke has a typical input z or 10M ohm or so. It can do this because it has a very high impedance OP amp buffer on the input side. http://www.alfaelectronics.com/FLUKE70.htm That kind of high z input will allow a phantom voltage to read. so it has NOTHING to do with accuracy, and every thing to do with the load the meter puts on what is being measured. Older analog meter have a mid level impedance. from 1000 ohms to 50K or so. Depends on the model. Most have no input buffer amps (Older VTVM excepted), so there input impedance is a combinations of the meter movement and the voltage divider resistors used for the voltage ranges. This mid level impedance is enough of a load to make these phantom voltages disappear. Phantom voltages have voltage potential, but little current drive potential. A phantom voltage in black box form would be a voltage source with a VERY high resistor in series with the voltage source. So it cannot drive much current into a load. This phantom voltage is like getting shocked off the carpet by static electricity. The voltage might be there but its not enough to cause any harm. Bob Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#51
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You folks (almost) sound like the US Congress ;-).
I appreciate all the responses. Thanks! We're waiting on a call back from the electrician. Meanwhile, some more detail: I'm using an analog multitester (Radio Shack - Micronta). [And the wet finger test, which gives a definite tingle/mild shock only between a TV connector and antenna cable end or outlet screw.] It's a roof top antenna, no cable or satellite. Results are the same with the antenna grounded or ungrounded. I see no electrical connection to the antenna or cabling, though I can't see what's in the wall. I tested nearly all the house outlets with a GB plug-in circuit tester, and all tested correct, hot/neutral are not reversed, no other faults, all are 125V hot to ground, 0V neutral to ground. Only two-prong appliances give a voltage reading, nothing off grounded appliances. I tested the TV, VCR, DVD and mixer unconnected to each other, and each on several different circuits. Results, at various multitester AC voltage range settings: MIXER: range mixer off mixer on 250V ~30V 25V 250/2V* ~30V 25V+ 50V 7V 7V 10V ~1.5V ~1.5V [*250 divided by 2 = 125 range. Meter needle is in near identical position on the 250V, 50V, and 10V range readings. Readings from mixer housing, handle, other parts.] DVD: 250V 50V 250/2V 50V 50V ~18V 10V ~4V [Needle in identical position on 50V & 10V readings. Same readings with DVD on or off. Readings from housing and output jacks.] VCR: 250V 30V+ 250/2V ~32V 50V ~17V 10V 4V [Needle almost identical position on 50V & 10V readings. Same readings with VCR on or off. Readings from F-connector and output jacks.] TV: off on across night light prongs 250V 75V 100V ~45V 250/2V 75V 100V ~40V 50V ~46V pegs 35V 10V pegs pegs pegs [Readings from various TV connectors/jacks. I didn't test night light with TV on.] I'm sceptical of some of these readings because the needle is in the same position. But I also don't know what that means. We bought this 12 year old house 5 years ago, so newish wiring and AFAIK no DIY hackers fiddling with it like in the old houses I've owned ;-). We had an addition, with subpanel, put on 4 years ago. I've done little wiring on this house myself, other than adding one outlet, replacing some switches and light fixtures, and all seem okay far as I can tell. We had DSL installed a few months ago. There's nothing else unusual electrically, that I can tell. Lights don't blink or burn out, all appliances and electronics work properly. The main panel and subpanel look right to me. I have some idea what's what as I've done some wiring before including running new circuits, though not in this house, but since I don't understand this problem I don't know just what to look for. I can't be sure, but I think this started recently, when the antenna reception started flaking. But I can't be sure since I never thought to test voltage on appliances before :-). I just got home from work. While we wait for the electrician I'll try testing with appliances and circuits turned off and on. Any other thoughts, suggestions, or other questions? Thanks! -- Luke |
#52
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You're right, if it's induced, it's still not 'right' but it's not going to kill anyone or start a fire. But what if it's not ? And, given his admittedly limited electrical ability and understanding ( he's done well so far, to do the tests he did, and to know to ask ), who do you figure is qualified to see what's actually going on ? Him with a light bulb guided by your long distance guesses, or an electrician ? As I stated, that depends. Sorry, see nothing to respond to there. |
#53
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-- Let someone else do it I'm retired! wrote in message ... On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:50:30 -0400, "Pop" wrote: "TURTLE" wrote in message ... "Luke" wrote in message ... On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 00:44:49 GMT, wrote: On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 16:50:03 -0600, Luke wrote: Our TV reception, from a roof antenna, was intermittently flaky. Trying to find the problem, I got a shock when I touched both the TV F-connector and coax cable antenna lead. So I put a tester on and to my surprise got a 75 volt reading. DVD player around to plug it into all circuits. I also get ~30 volts off the housing of an old stand mixer in the kitchen. This isn't normal, is it? NO. It's dangerous. It's gonna kill someone. Ignore the illiterate hacks Matt and Turtle aka Weasel, and get a licensed electrician in there NOW to find out what's going on, before it kills you. You have neither the tools nor the training to continue. You either have a lifted neutral, or ground, and either one can kill you, or burn your house down. BTW - I'm a licensed Master Electrician, unlike the plumber and the hack mentioned above. I'll ignore the personal attacks ;-). I know I'm beyond my abilities on this, which is why I asked, and as you suggest I was going to call an electrician first thing tomorrow morning. Just curious, what's a "lifted" ground or neutral, and why do all other appliances (computer, clocks, radio, etc.) seem to work okay? -- Luke This is Turtle. Paul Milligan above here telling of hacks is nothing but a air condtioner software salesman and has not a clue as to what your problem is. The only 120 volt item that he may work on is his razar to shave with in the morning when it will not run. Now he does know a bunch about software to tell about air conditioners and heating system as to what size you would need to install. I one of the so call hacks he speaks of have held Electrican licences for over 30 years and in the hvac business for over 40 years. Also i run my own hvac business and all paul runs is his head. Watch who you listen to on the newsgroups. TURTLE Good advice. But, whenever a person wishes to call in a contractor, I would never recommend against it. The only real problem here is the buffoon with his egocentric mouth-hole in gear without a running motor to drive it. Concensus usually wins out with most posters, so one of that ilk only causes a little momentary stress. It's also possible he's right but he's bypassing the simple things that might easily determine that an electrician isn't needed, and that it won't take digging into anything more than a light bulb or resistor to measure across in order to see what kind of current might be there. Besides that, he probably enjoys flames because he gets to show off the vocabulary his father taught him. Pop Actually, it was your mother. Moron. I heard it was actually my father and your mother. Moronic idiot. |
#54
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On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:50:19 -0400, "Pop"
wrote: You're right, if it's induced, it's still not 'right' but it's not going to kill anyone or start a fire. But what if it's not ? And, given his admittedly limited electrical ability and understanding ( he's done well so far, to do the tests he did, and to know to ask ), who do you figure is qualified to see what's actually going on ? Him with a light bulb guided by your long distance guesses, or an electrician ? As I stated, that depends. No, it doesn't 'depend' at all. He needs a qualified electrician, not your long distance guesses and a light bulb. Sorry, see nothing to respond to there. Then you decided to bless us with your post .... why ? You have no answer because the only possible answer is 'Paul, you're right', and you can't bear to say it. You'd rather post just to throw your bull**** at me. Click every day here to feed an animal !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
#55
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On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:07:07 GMT,
wrote: On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:50:19 -0400, "Pop" wrote: You're right, if it's induced, it's still not 'right' but it's not going to kill anyone or start a fire. But what if it's not ? And, given his admittedly limited electrical ability and understanding ( he's done well so far, to do the tests he did, and to know to ask ), who do you figure is qualified to see what's actually going on ? Him with a light bulb guided by your long distance guesses, or an electrician ? As I stated, that depends. No, it doesn't 'depend' at all. He needs a qualified electrician, not your long distance guesses and a light bulb. Sorry, see nothing to respond to there. Then you decided to bless us with your post .... why ? You have no answer because the only possible answer is 'Paul, you're right', and you can't bear to say it. You'd rather post just to throw your bull**** at me. Click every day here to feed an animal !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ If you've had the patience to read through all the character assasination and BS on this thread, I'm going to offer that if you have enough current to feel it, you've got a real problem that should be addressed. My long distance diagnosis would be a bad ground connection at the main power supply or another circuit lower down, you do need to get this fixed, it is potentially dangerous and I think a real electrician, or the power company, should be involved, I really wish this newsgroup didn't have to absorb the overflow of the nastiness on HVAC,com, but that seems to be what's going on just now, Dan |
#56
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On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:47:51 GMT, Dan wrote:
On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:07:07 GMT, wrote: If you've had the patience to read through all the character assasination and BS on this thread, I'm going to offer that if you have enough current to feel it, you've got a real problem that should be addressed. Yep. My long distance diagnosis would be a bad ground connection at the main power supply or another circuit lower down, you do need to get this fixed, it is potentially dangerous and I think a real electrician, or the power company, should be involved, I really wish this newsgroup didn't have to absorb the overflow of the nastiness on HVAC,com, but that seems to be what's going on just now, Dan Gee, it seemed to me that someone calling himself 'Pop' took it upon himself to throw 4 paragraphs of **** at me. Seems he's home-grown right here, not alt.hvac. It seems to me that some idjits here are trying to explain 30 V to ground on the chassis of a kitchen appliance as 'Oh, that's OK, nothing to wory about' and 'it must be your meter' and other excuses, where the ONLY correct, safe-for-the-OP answer is 'This may be a serious problem, get it checked out ASAP'. Not 'go get a light bulb and see if it lights up' or that other bull****. Well, let me tell you - I'll never forget a service call I was on many many years ago. Some moron had tried to 'fix' a 4-burner electric built-in cooktop with a burnt socket by taking the wire and using a clamp to attach it to the OUTSIDE of the burner element. This gave the entire cooktop, including the chrome trim, 120 V to ground , with 40 A behind it. I found out when I leaned against it. I felt 'a tingle', just like this guy felt ( but more so ). I'm glad it was me instead of the 80 + year old folks living there, cause it probably would have killed them. Some 'expert', just like the ones that post here, had 'fixed' it for them. And damned near killed them. Seems there are some others here, too, that don't know ****-all about electricity, but feel it appropriate to hand out advice to poor innocent home-owners. And when someone calls 'bull****' on their stupidity, then they start handing out all kinds of personal crap. And it grew right here, it didn't just blow in on the wind last week. Click every day here to feed an animal !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
#57
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Where you find voltage, then switch the multimeter to
current. That number is also important. For example, if the meter measures microamps, well that typically is not enough to be a danger but would also not cause 'wet finger tingle'. Milliamps or (real bad) amps of AC current tell you more. Based upon what that meter is doing, the current leakage is probably in the milliamp range. Unfortunately, your meter sounds like something that has no current readings. Therefore put a 100 or 1000 ohm resistor between those meter probes and measure AC voltage again (do voltage for both resistors). With Ohm's law, leakage current is calculated. Resistor (and alligator test leads) also available at Radio Shack. (Good move to avoid those posting insults without including supporting numbers. Posting without numbers - junk scientist. Posting insults without numbers - junk people.) Luke wrote: You folks (almost) sound like the US Congress ;-). I appreciate all the responses. Thanks! We're waiting on a call back from the electrician. Meanwhile, some more detail: I'm using an analog multitester (Radio Shack - Micronta). [And the wet finger test, which gives a definite tingle/mild shock only between a TV connector and antenna cable end or outlet screw.] It's a roof top antenna, no cable or satellite. Results are the same with the antenna grounded or ungrounded. I see no electrical connection to the antenna or cabling, though I can't see what's in the wall. I tested nearly all the house outlets with a GB plug-in circuit tester, and all tested correct, hot/neutral are not reversed, no other faults, all are 125V hot to ground, 0V neutral to ground. Only two-prong appliances give a voltage reading, nothing off grounded appliances. I tested the TV, VCR, DVD and mixer unconnected to each other, and each on several different circuits. Results, at various multitester AC voltage range settings: MIXER: range mixer off mixer on 250V ~30V 25V 250/2V* ~30V 25V+ 50V 7V 7V 10V ~1.5V ~1.5V [*250 divided by 2 = 125 range. Meter needle is in near identical position on the 250V, 50V, and 10V range readings. Readings from mixer housing, handle, other parts.] DVD: 250V 50V 250/2V 50V 50V ~18V 10V ~4V [Needle in identical position on 50V & 10V readings. Same readings with DVD on or off. Readings from housing and output jacks.] VCR: 250V 30V+ 250/2V ~32V 50V ~17V 10V 4V [Needle almost identical position on 50V & 10V readings. Same readings with VCR on or off. Readings from F-connector and output jacks.] TV: off on across night light prongs 250V 75V 100V ~45V 250/2V 75V 100V ~40V 50V ~46V pegs 35V 10V pegs pegs pegs [Readings from various TV connectors/jacks. I didn't test night light with TV on.] I'm sceptical of some of these readings because the needle is in the same position. But I also don't know what that means. We bought this 12 year old house 5 years ago, so newish wiring and AFAIK no DIY hackers fiddling with it like in the old houses I've owned ;-). We had an addition, with subpanel, put on 4 years ago. I've done little wiring on this house myself, other than adding one outlet, replacing some switches and light fixtures, and all seem okay far as I can tell. We had DSL installed a few months ago. There's nothing else unusual electrically, that I can tell. Lights don't blink or burn out, all appliances and electronics work properly. The main panel and subpanel look right to me. I have some idea what's what as I've done some wiring before including running new circuits, though not in this house, but since I don't understand this problem I don't know just what to look for. I can't be sure, but I think this started recently, when the antenna reception started flaking. But I can't be sure since I never thought to test voltage on appliances before :-). I just got home from work. While we wait for the electrician I'll try testing with appliances and circuits turned off and on. Any other thoughts, suggestions, or other questions? Thanks! -- Luke |
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Luke wrote:
Our TV reception, from a roof antenna, was intermittently flaky. Trying to find the problem, I got a shock when I touched both the TV F-connector and coax cable antenna lead. So I put a tester on and to my surprise got a 75 volt reading. It's also 75 volts between the TV F-connector and the outlet ground plug hole or outlet screw. And, there's 75 volts between any connector on the TV and any of these grounds. I'm also getting ~40 volts off the VCR F-connector, and ~50 volts off the DVD player *housing*. Best I can determine this is the case with all house circuits. I plugged the TV into several, using extension cords, and carried the DVD player around to plug it into all circuits. I also get ~30 volts off the housing of an old stand mixer in the kitchen. This isn't normal, is it? I checked as many outlets as I could get to with a GB plug-in circuit tester, and all test correct. All outlets are at 125 volts. I opened the main panel and the one subpanel to see what I could see, and all looked right, though I really don't know what I'm looking for here. What would cause "hot" appliances, and how do I track this down? Thanks! First, the 75V on the antenna connector COULD be correct IF the antenna is a satellite TV antenna. Voltage actually travels the cable to drive the circuitry in the LMB. Second, the voltage measured here, there, and the other place is dependent on the impedance of the meter and whether a load is active. Clamp one lead of the meter to ground and hold the other lead between dampened fingers. Bingo! Two to fifty volts on a sensitive meter. |
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William W. Plummer posted for all of us...
Aside from all the other suggestions, don't forget that the cable system gets its power from the cable itself. That's on the order of 75 volts send down the large center conductor of the cable. You might need a visit from the Cable Guy to check it out. i wasn't gonna get involved butttt WTF do you mean? -- Tekkie |
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On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:42:05 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote: Luke wrote: Our TV reception, from a roof antenna, was intermittently flaky. Trying to find the problem, I got a shock when I touched both the TV F-connector and coax cable antenna lead. So I put a tester on and to my surprise got a 75 volt reading. It's also 75 volts between the TV F-connector and the outlet ground plug hole or outlet screw. And, there's 75 volts between any connector on the TV and any of these grounds. I'm also getting ~40 volts off the VCR F-connector, and ~50 volts off the DVD player *housing*. Best I can determine this is the case with all house circuits. I plugged the TV into several, using extension cords, and carried the DVD player around to plug it into all circuits. I also get ~30 volts off the housing of an old stand mixer in the kitchen. This isn't normal, is it? I checked as many outlets as I could get to with a GB plug-in circuit tester, and all test correct. All outlets are at 125 volts. I opened the main panel and the one subpanel to see what I could see, and all looked right, though I really don't know what I'm looking for here. What would cause "hot" appliances, and how do I track this down? Thanks! First, the 75V on the antenna connector COULD be correct IF the antenna is a satellite TV antenna. Voltage actually travels the cable to drive the circuitry in the LMB. Second, the voltage measured here, there, and the other place is dependent on the impedance of the meter and whether a load is active. Clamp one lead of the meter to ground and hold the other lead between dampened fingers. Bingo! Two to fifty volts on a sensitive meter. And on his Radio Shack POS analog ? Click every day here to feed an animal !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:38:23 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote: wrote: On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 01:27:28 GMT, "Ralph Mowery" wrote: Some times the capacitors and surge supressors will become damaged due to old age or voltage surges. This can then become a big issue. Then you have a short or partial short to ground ( the SS's ), or beteeen legs ( the caps failing short ), NEITHER OF WHICH PUTS VOLTAGE ON THE CASE OF THE MIXER IN THE KITCHEN !!!! Sorry. You are wrong. Way wrong. Almost criminally wrong. Did it take you many years to get this stupid ? Or do you just have a gift ? Click every day here to feed an animal !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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Tekkie® wrote:
William W. Plummer posted for all of us... Aside from all the other suggestions, don't forget that the cable system gets its power from the cable itself. That's on the order of 75 volts send down the large center conductor of the cable. You might need a visit from the Cable Guy to check it out. i wasn't gonna get involved butttt WTF do you mean? All the amplifiers in a community cable distribution system get their power from the cable itself. It is 60 Hz whereas the cable signals are 50+ MHz and higher. |
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wrote in message ... On 4 Apr 2005 17:24:12 GMT, Jim Yanik . wrote: wrote in news What a great technical test and diagnosis. For an unemployed plumber, maybe. I don't see YOU offering anything better. Then you haven't read my posts. I gave him the best ( and only correct ) advice possible ' Snip the Bull**** This is Turtle. You say you give this man the correct advice already but i see no post to him at all. was you using ESP or something or dreaming again ? TURTLE |
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wrote in message news On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:50:19 -0400, "Pop" wrote: You're right, if it's induced, it's still not 'right' but it's not going to kill anyone or start a fire. But what if it's not ? And, given his admittedly limited electrical ability and understanding ( he's done well so far, to do the tests he did, and to know to ask ), who do you figure is qualified to see what's actually going on ? Him with a light bulb guided by your long distance guesses, or an electrician ? As I stated, that depends. No, it doesn't 'depend' at all. He needs a qualified electrician, not your long distance guesses and a light bulb. Sorry, see nothing to respond to there. Then you decided to bless us with your post .... why ? You have no answer because the only possible answer is 'Paul, you're right', and you can't bear to say it. You'd rather post just to throw your bull**** at me. This is Turtle. OH My God, POP is one of those alt.hvac members out to get you. Ok Paul your right and i will send a e-mail to POP to tell him that your always right and to stop being out to get you. You know i heard that somewhere's before. '' They are all out to get me ! ''. TURTLE |
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"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message ... Luke : Sorry to say that we are having a little problem with one or more local trolls. It should be easy for you to ID them and ignore them. Turtle somehow get tied up in this. He has been long known for great advice and his gentleman manor. I suggest you ignore his responses to the troll(s) but do listen to his advice. Note to Turtle. The less attention given to those who have social problems, the better. Don't let them get you down. -- Joseph Meehan Dia's Muire duit This is Turtle. I stand corrected for I have been a little forward the last few days. Paul must not have took his medications and i had to answer his attacks. I'll have to tone it down. TURTLE |
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wrote in message ... On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 11:23:21 GMT, "Joseph Meehan" wrote: Luke : Sorry to say that we are having a little problem with one or more local trolls. It should be easy for you to ID them and ignore them. Turtle somehow get tied up in this. He has been long known for great advice and his gentleman manor. And for a complete lack of understanding of basic electricity. This is Turtle. Yes Paul after 40 something years in the hvac business, I still have not learn about Lesstricity. Does owning my own business for the last 25 year count ? OK I don't know anything Paul. TURTLE |
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when u got bs to toss, where do u throw it. at the pile of bull****, of
course. wrote in message news On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:50:19 -0400, "Pop" wrote: You're right, if it's induced, it's still not 'right' but it's not going to kill anyone or start a fire. But what if it's not ? And, given his admittedly limited electrical ability and understanding ( he's done well so far, to do the tests he did, and to know to ask ), who do you figure is qualified to see what's actually going on ? Him with a light bulb guided by your long distance guesses, or an electrician ? As I stated, that depends. No, it doesn't 'depend' at all. He needs a qualified electrician, not your long distance guesses and a light bulb. Sorry, see nothing to respond to there. Then you decided to bless us with your post .... why ? You have no answer because the only possible answer is 'Paul, you're right', and you can't bear to say it. You'd rather post just to throw your bull**** at me. Click every day here to feed an animal !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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most of the meter readings indicate that you are measuring low level
leakage current which will tickle a wet finger and is normal. The capacitance beween the motor windings and the shell of a mixer can casue this. The avaialble is very low and even the current needed for the meter reduces the avaiable voltage. This casues the numerical reading to change when you change scales on the meter, i.e. the pointer does not move much but the corresponding reading does change. This is a classic indication of very low current, like leakage current and is probably normal. If you had a real problem and put wet fingers across it, you would feel it very strongly and you meter would peg on the 10V The TV readings seem high. I don't unerstand your readings for the TV and "across night light prongs? What does that mean? Mark |
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On 5 Apr 2005 11:50:10 -0700, "Mark" wrote:
most of the meter readings indicate that you are measuring low level leakage current which will tickle a wet finger and is normal. You figure it's 'normal' to walk into your kitchen, put a wet hand on an appliance, and get shocked ? The first two parts I can understand - walking - that's OK - getting your hands wet in the kitchen - that's pretty normal .... but you figure IT'S NORMAL TO GET AN ELECTRICAL SHOCK FROM TOUCHING YOUR TOASTER OR MIXER OR WHATEVER ????? What IN THE **** is your problem, asshole ???? If you can't give any better advice than that, you need to SIT THE **** DOWN AND SHUT THE **** UP BEFORE YOU GET SOMEONE KILLED !!!!!! { snip the rest of his bull**** } Click every day here to feed an animal !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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William W. Plummer posted for all of us...
Tekkie=AE wrote: =20 William W. Plummer posted for all of us... =20 =20 Aside from all the other suggestions, don't forget that the cable syste= m=20 gets its power from the cable itself. That's on the order of 75 volt= s=20 send down the large center conductor of the cable. You might need a= =20 visit from the Cable Guy to check it out. =20 i wasn't gonna get involved butttt WTF do you mean? =20 All the amplifiers in a community cable distribution system get their=20 power from the cable itself. It is 60 Hz whereas the cable signals=20 are 50+ MHz and higher. =20 Well, I'm dubious about this too... but 75 Volts?? Nah & now you are talkin= g=20 frequency. So let us know what you are asserting here... volt amps=20 frequency pick one then stick with it.=20 --=20 Tekkie |
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Luke,
were you also getting a mild shock from the mixer or just from the TV connector? Mark |
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On 5 Apr 2005 19:29:51 -0700, "Mark" wrote:
Luke, were you also getting a mild shock from the mixer or just from the TV connector? Mark The hell difference does it make ? You're not supposed to get shocked from ANYTHING, ANY appliance or device, period, in your home. There ain't on arguing about it. It's the facts. You can argue / guess all you want about the possible causes, but you're not supposed to get an electrical shock from anything in your residence, ever, and that's just the way it is. Click every day here to feed an animal !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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Tekkie® wrote:
William W. Plummer posted for all of us... Tekkie® wrote: William W. Plummer posted for all of us... Aside from all the other suggestions, don't forget that the cable system gets its power from the cable itself. That's on the order of 75 volts send down the large center conductor of the cable. You might need a visit from the Cable Guy to check it out. i wasn't gonna get involved butttt WTF do you mean? All the amplifiers in a community cable distribution system get their power from the cable itself. It is 60 Hz whereas the cable signals are 50+ MHz and higher. Well, I'm dubious about this too... but 75 Volts?? Nah & now you are talking frequency. So let us know what you are asserting here... volt amps frequency pick one then stick with it. TROLL |
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John Willis wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 02:37:46 GMT, scribbled this interesting note: There ain't on arguing about it. It's the facts. You can argue / guess all you want about the possible causes, but you're not supposed to get an electrical shock from anything in your residence, ever, and that's just the way it is. Not even static shock from the carpet on cold, dry days??? NO! NEVER! UNSAFE! DANGEROUS! CALL THE MASTER ELECTRICIAN! |
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On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:40:13 -0500, John Willis
wrote: On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 02:37:46 GMT, scribbled this interesting note: There ain't on arguing about it. It's the facts. You can argue / guess all you want about the possible causes, but you're not supposed to get an electrical shock from anything in your residence, ever, and that's just the way it is. Not even static shock from the carpet on cold, dry days??? Not by design intent, anyway :-) Click every day here to feed an animal !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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As some of you suspected it's my analog volt meter. If I had
understood the meter could give false voltage readings, I would have mentioned which meter I was using in my first post, though I did mention it later. The electrician checked the house wiring and there's nothing wrong. The only suspect is possibly the TV tuner, so the next step is to maybe contact a TV repair. One positive thing out of this is I found a very good electrician, after one guy never returned the phone call and another one failed to show when promised. Anyway, thanks, and as the late great Emily Litella said: Nevermind! Cheers! -- Luke |
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