Mild fence property line "dispute"
 

I can hardly call it a dispute, because so far everyone is on really
friendly terms, but I just bought a house where the rear property line
touches two separate neighbors. Well, the rear property line runs
straight but the fence does a bit of a "jut" at one point, the result
of which is that the 2/3 of the fence that abuts Neighbor #1's property
is 2 feet on my side of the property line, and the 1/3 of the fence
that abuts Neighbor #2's property is 1 foot on his side of the property
line.

It appears that the previous owner of my property built the part of the
fence that abuts Neighbor #2, and I'm not sure who built the part of
the fence that abuts Neighbor #1 (they look like different fences).
We're in California, so I understand that adverse possession isn't much
of a concern because unless you paid the person's property taxes you
can't adversely possess, and we are only talking about a foot or two
anyway, so its not being used for anything but plants/trees.

My questions are, what rights/responsibilities do the various parties
have in moving the fence? Can Neighbor #2 simply move the fence? Would
I be legally obligated to pay for a portion of the new fence (I don't
really mind him moving the fence, I just don't particularly want to pay
for it). Keep in mind that the previous owner of my property
apparently built this fence on this other's guys property without his
permission.

Likewise, can I move the fence that abuts neighbor #1's property if I
pay for it? What if he's the one that built the fence?

In the end, I think everyone is friendly and its not going to be a big
deal, I just don't know what is customary in these kinds of situations
so I figure the law may be a good jumping off point.

"Actor123" wrote in message
oups.com...
I can hardly call it a dispute, because so far everyone is on really
friendly terms, but I just bought a house where the rear property line
touches two separate neighbors. Well, the rear property line runs
straight but the fence does a bit of a "jut" at one point, the result
of which is that the 2/3 of the fence that abuts Neighbor #1's property
is 2 feet on my side of the property line, and the 1/3 of the fence
that abuts Neighbor #2's property is 1 foot on his side of the property
line.

It appears that the previous owner of my property built the part of the
fence that abuts Neighbor #2, and I'm not sure who built the part of
the fence that abuts Neighbor #1 (they look like different fences).
We're in California, so I understand that adverse possession isn't much
of a concern because unless you paid the person's property taxes you
can't adversely possess, and we are only talking about a foot or two
anyway, so its not being used for anything but plants/trees.

My questions are, what rights/responsibilities do the various parties
have in moving the fence? Can Neighbor #2 simply move the fence? Would
I be legally obligated to pay for a portion of the new fence (I don't
really mind him moving the fence, I just don't particularly want to pay
for it). Keep in mind that the previous owner of my property
apparently built this fence on this other's guys property without his
permission.

Likewise, can I move the fence that abuts neighbor #1's property if I
pay for it? What if he's the one that built the fence?

In the end, I think everyone is friendly and its not going to be a big
deal, I just don't know what is customary in these kinds of situations
so I figure the law may be a good jumping off point.


Have you had a survey done or have you located the corner markers ? You
don't want to attempt to move anything unless you are certain where the line
is. I have seen property deeds for neighboring properties in which the
common line has incompatible definitions. Make sure all three property deeds
define the same property line the same way. Make sure your neighbors all
agree before you do anything.

Where were your neighbors when these two fences were being built ? Would
other neighbors remember who built the fences ?

I have three back neighbors with three different fences and not one fence
belongs to my property. Two of the fences are in a straight line and the
third cuts off some of the neighbors property. Good luck solving your
problem.

dane wrote:
"Actor123" wrote in message
oups.com...
I can hardly call it a dispute, because so far everyone is on
really
friendly terms, but I just bought a house where the rear property
line
touches two separate neighbors. Well, the rear property line runs
straight but the fence does a bit of a "jut" at one point, the
result
of which is that the 2/3 of the fence that abuts Neighbor #1's
property
is 2 feet on my side of the property line, and the 1/3 of the fence
that abuts Neighbor #2's property is 1 foot on his side of the
property
line.

It appears that the previous owner of my property built the part of
the
fence that abuts Neighbor #2, and I'm not sure who built the part
of
the fence that abuts Neighbor #1 (they look like different fences).
We're in California, so I understand that adverse possession isn't
much
of a concern because unless you paid the person's property taxes
you
can't adversely possess, and we are only talking about a foot or
two
anyway, so its not being used for anything but plants/trees.

My questions are, what rights/responsibilities do the various
parties
have in moving the fence? Can Neighbor #2 simply move the fence?
Would
I be legally obligated to pay for a portion of the new fence (I
don't
really mind him moving the fence, I just don't particularly want to
pay
for it). Keep in mind that the previous owner of my property
apparently built this fence on this other's guys property without
his
permission.

Likewise, can I move the fence that abuts neighbor #1's property if
I
pay for it? What if he's the one that built the fence?

In the end, I think everyone is friendly and its not going to be a
big
deal, I just don't know what is customary in these kinds of
situations
so I figure the law may be a good jumping off point.


Have you had a survey done or have you located the corner markers ?
You
don't want to attempt to move anything unless you are certain where
the line
is. I have seen property deeds for neighboring properties in which
the
common line has incompatible definitions. Make sure all three
property deeds
define the same property line the same way. Make sure your neighbors
all
agree before you do anything.

Where were your neighbors when these two fences were being built ?
Would
other neighbors remember who built the fences ?

I have three back neighbors with three different fences and not one
fence
belongs to my property. Two of the fences are in a straight line and
the
third cuts off some of the neighbors property. Good luck solving your
problem.


Yes, a survey was just completed which is how I know how much the fence
was off. Neighbor #2 was apparently aware when the fence (it was just
a couple years ago) was being built but didn't say anything - the
previous owner of my property was kind of a jerk and apparently did
lots of stuff on the property without asking permission first.
Apparently neighbor #2 just came home one day to find a fence on what
he thought was his property (turns out he was right, although not by as
much as he thought). Neighbor #2 is a nice guy and I guess didn't want
to get involved in a major fight with the jerk.

I have no idea when the fence to neighbor #1 was built, or who built
it.

"Actor123" wrote in message
oups.com...

dane wrote:
"Actor123" wrote in message
oups.com...
I can hardly call it a dispute, because so far everyone is on
really
friendly terms, but I just bought a house where the rear property
line
touches two separate neighbors. Well, the rear property line runs
straight but the fence does a bit of a "jut" at one point, the
result
of which is that the 2/3 of the fence that abuts Neighbor #1's
property
is 2 feet on my side of the property line, and the 1/3 of the fence
that abuts Neighbor #2's property is 1 foot on his side of the
property
line.

It appears that the previous owner of my property built the part of
the
fence that abuts Neighbor #2, and I'm not sure who built the part
of
the fence that abuts Neighbor #1 (they look like different fences).
We're in California, so I understand that adverse possession isn't
much
of a concern because unless you paid the person's property taxes
you
can't adversely possess, and we are only talking about a foot or
two
anyway, so its not being used for anything but plants/trees.

My questions are, what rights/responsibilities do the various
parties
have in moving the fence? Can Neighbor #2 simply move the fence?
Would
I be legally obligated to pay for a portion of the new fence (I
don't
really mind him moving the fence, I just don't particularly want to
pay
for it). Keep in mind that the previous owner of my property
apparently built this fence on this other's guys property without
his
permission.

Likewise, can I move the fence that abuts neighbor #1's property if
I
pay for it? What if he's the one that built the fence?

In the end, I think everyone is friendly and its not going to be a
big
deal, I just don't know what is customary in these kinds of
situations
so I figure the law may be a good jumping off point.


Have you had a survey done or have you located the corner markers ?
You
don't want to attempt to move anything unless you are certain where
the line
is. I have seen property deeds for neighboring properties in which
the
common line has incompatible definitions. Make sure all three
property deeds
define the same property line the same way. Make sure your neighbors
all
agree before you do anything.

Where were your neighbors when these two fences were being built ?
Would
other neighbors remember who built the fences ?

I have three back neighbors with three different fences and not one
fence
belongs to my property. Two of the fences are in a straight line and
the
third cuts off some of the neighbors property. Good luck solving your
problem.


Yes, a survey was just completed which is how I know how much the fence
was off. Neighbor #2 was apparently aware when the fence (it was just
a couple years ago) was being built but didn't say anything - the
previous owner of my property was kind of a jerk and apparently did
lots of stuff on the property without asking permission first.
Apparently neighbor #2 just came home one day to find a fence on what
he thought was his property (turns out he was right, although not by as
much as he thought). Neighbor #2 is a nice guy and I guess didn't want
to get involved in a major fight with the jerk.

I have no idea when the fence to neighbor #1 was built, or who built
it.


This is Turtle.

If the fence did not bothered you I would leave it where it is. Now if it
bothers you. Hey Have a talk with the Neighbors involved and just sit down and
talk about it and explain what you want to do and just talk about it. If you are
wanting to change or redo the fence. They will usely never say a word if your
paying to redo their share of a fence.

Now if you expect another person to start paying for changes that you want to
do. Do expect a fight to start. Now if your paying for the changes they will
usely tell '' right on '' and keep going for your doing a good job.

TURTLE

"TURTLE" wrote:

If the fence did not bothered you I would leave it where it is.

This is a really bad idea. I'm not a real estate lawyer, but everything I've
read suggests you would be setting yourself up for a rather nasty case of
adverse possession, especially if it can be shown you knew about the problem and
did nothing about it.

I would think the minimum you would need is a legal agreement between you and
the neighbor, where he acknowldges the correct property line, and "rents" the
additional land for $1/year or something similar.

If its done with a positive attitude (as in "hey, we've got a problem here.
Rather than force you to change the fenceline, how about this idea?"), the
neighbor shouldn't have any issue with it.

I gotcha. But actually at this point I'm a little more concerned that
neighbor #2 would try and force me to move the fence back over to my
property. I guess I'm clear on the adverse possession/prescriptive
easement laws in my area, but I have no idea regarding ownerships of
fences and responsibilities to move fences that were built by others,
or perhaps more importantly, what is customary.

Basically, I'm a little worried that I may have to pay some money to
move a fence back over to my side of the property line when I'm not the
one who put up the fence in the first place. In my opinion, if
neighbor #2 wants the fence moved, he should pay to have it moved
himself - I have no objection to that. But I don't feel I should pay
to move a fence that (1) I didn't build (2) the neighbor saw being
built and never objected to. But I'm curious if my position is
unreasonable. I'd kind of like to know before I talk further with
neighbor #2, in case he asks me to move the fence.

"Clark W. Griswold, Jr." wrote in message
...
"TURTLE" wrote:

If the fence did not bothered you I would leave it where it is.

This is a really bad idea. I'm not a real estate lawyer, but everything I've
read suggests you would be setting yourself up for a rather nasty case of
adverse possession, especially if it can be shown you knew about the problem
and
did nothing about it.

I would think the minimum you would need is a legal agreement between you and
the neighbor, where he acknowldges the correct property line, and "rents" the
additional land for $1/year or something similar.

If its done with a positive attitude (as in "hey, we've got a problem here.
Rather than force you to change the fenceline, how about this idea?"), the
neighbor shouldn't have any issue with it.

This is Turtle.

I think you making a mountain out of a mole hill. A fence does not state the
servay line or owner ship line in any state of the union. The Deed to the land
has a servey attached to it and it define where the property lines are and who
own what. The Deed describes the land and what you own and the fence is there to
tell everybody the property line is near by this fence line. What your stating
here is where your laying claim to free range land and has no clear owner of the
property to fence off and declair Home Stead rights to it. the fellow next door
has a deed stating property lines and Free Range Home Steading does not apply.

In any city the fence is not the deed to the land. They keep the deeds in the
court house to look at anytime you want. No disrespect here at all but the fence
don't mean squite in who own the land.

TURTLE

Actor123 wrote:
I gotcha. But actually at this point I'm a little more concerned that
neighbor #2 would try and force me to move the fence back over to my
property. I guess I'm clear on the adverse possession/prescriptive
easement laws in my area, but I have no idea regarding ownerships of
fences and responsibilities to move fences that were built by others,
or perhaps more importantly, what is customary.

Basically, I'm a little worried that I may have to pay some money to
move a fence back over to my side of the property line when I'm not the
one who put up the fence in the first place. In my opinion, if
neighbor #2 wants the fence moved, he should pay to have it moved
himself - I have no objection to that. But I don't feel I should pay
to move a fence that (1) I didn't build (2) the neighbor saw being
built and never objected to. But I'm curious if my position is
unreasonable. I'd kind of like to know before I talk further with
neighbor #2, in case he asks me to move the fence.

I don't recall the original post but if it didn't say....where is the
survey in all this. Should it not have identified these problems? If it
did and the buyer purchased it anyway, I would think he/she took on the
problem. If it didn't show the encroachment then the surveyor has some
responsibility, right?

Gary

On 11 Feb 2005 22:24:47 -0800, someone wrote:

The fence should be inside the property of whoever's fence it is.
Only if it is a jointly owned fence, which is asking for future
trouble in other ways , would it be "on the line".

Right now, looks pretty clear who owns which fence. No matter who
actually put it up. (If it was opposite to who you posted put up
once, it would be in complete comformance.)


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.

So it that the rule? Whoever's property the fence is on owns the fence
(or at least the right to knock it down/move it at their own expense)?


And do I have any legal responsibility to move a fence that a previous
owner of my property mistakenly (or purposely) placed on my neighbor's
property?

On 13 Feb 2005 12:05:27 -0800, someone wrote:

You'd risk liability based on what somebody told you over the
internet? ;-) Better ask a local lawyer IRL. Alls I'm sayin' is
that you should not necessarily be expecting a fence to be "on" the
property line. In general, nobody has an "right" to put up a fence on
anyone else's property or to enter anyone else's property to do so. -
so since a fence has some thickness, as a practical matter its owner
would have to set it back a few inches or risk encroachment.

So what if someobdy else puts a fence on your land? Well, what if
they put a shed, a garage, house, etc. Similar.

You also talk about somebody else who used to own what is now your
property putting a fence on someone else's property. So what. What
is it to you?

But ask your lawyer. This advice is worth what you paid for it.


So it that the rule? Whoever's property the fence is on owns the fence
(or at least the right to knock it down/move it at their own expense)?


And do I have any legal responsibility to move a fence that a previous
owner of my property mistakenly (or purposely) placed on my neighbor's
property?




Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.

v wrote:
On 13 Feb 2005 12:05:27 -0800, someone wrote:

You'd risk liability based on what somebody told you over the
internet? ;-)

Ha, hardly. I'm not going to risk any liability based on comments from
this group. All I'm looking for at this point is some guidance before
I go into an initial discussion on this topic with my neighbors, so I
might know a little about what I'm talking about - if not the law at
least the custom. At worst I'm risking looking like a fool to my
neighbor.

Better ask a local lawyer IRL. Alls I'm sayin' is
that you should not necessarily be expecting a fence to be "on" the
property line.

Umm, I never said I did. Maybe someone else in the thread did, but not
me. As best I can tell, fences are almost always at least a little bit
off. I'd be happy enough just to leave well enough alone, and will
likely ask the neighbor to do the same, but I'm a little concerned he
might try and force me to move the fence, in which case I'd kind of
like to know whether or not that's a reasonable request.

In general, nobody has an "right" to put up a fence on
anyone else's property or to enter anyone else's property to do so. -
so since a fence has some thickness, as a practical matter its owner
would have to set it back a few inches or risk encroachment.
So what if someobdy else puts a fence on your land? Well, what if
they put a shed, a garage, house, etc. Similar.

You also talk about somebody else who used to own what is now your
property putting a fence on someone else's property. So what. What
is it to you?


I can't quite tell whether you are being facetious or not. Presuming
what you said above is correct (that whoever owns the fence would be
encroaching and thus be responsible for moving it), then it becomes
very relevant whether I "own" the fence that the previous owner of my
property put up on my neighbors property. If I don't own it, who does?
The neighbor? The previous owner of my property?


But ask your lawyer. This advice is worth what you paid for it.



Don't worry, I'd involve a lawyer if it gets to that point. At this
point though I'm just trying to find out whether my position is
reasonable or not so I know how to play it in our informal discussions.
If I'm being unreasonable, I'd rather hear it from someone on the
Internet than from the neighbor.

Actor123 wrote:
So it that the rule? Whoever's property the fence is on owns the
fence
(or at least the right to knock it down/move it at their own
expense)?

I'd bet yes, but there may be caveats. If the fence is providing
benefit to someone else, maybe you can't just knock it down without
arranging a substitution. Some localities may require permits to erect
or demolish a fence, but this is probably rare for backyard fences.
Heck, some localities *require* fences, and some prohibit them. It
could vary by neighbourhood, and let's not even mention homeowner
associations.

Around here, and this seems not to be common based on what I read in
this NG, either property owner can build a fence, *on* the property
line, and can demand the neighbour pay half the cost, based on the cost
of some minimal functional fence. A basic chainlink job seems to be
reckoned as the baseline. If there's a "nice" side it must face the
involuntary neighbour. Of course decent neighbours talk about it
beforehand and agree on a fence that suits them both, and split it.

And do I have any legal responsibility to move a fence that a
previous
owner of my property mistakenly (or purposely) placed on my
neighbor's
property?

I'd bet you have no obligation to pay for its removal and disposal. But
around here, as above, you would have an obligation in its replacement,
if the neighbour wished.

In the big picture, I'd ask myself, Does this bother me? And if the
answer is no (and it would be), I'd forget about it. If and when one of
the neighbours mentions it, or takes action, then I'd say Oh yeah, that
fence thing; how about we split the cost of a nice new fence right on
the property line?

Chip C
Toronto