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#1
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HOA giving grief about fence
Hi,
Please help us in our new 'situation'. Our HOA is giving us grief over our fence color. We painted our fence a light oak color stain TWO AND HALF years ago. The HOA sent us a notice yesterday saying the color is unacceptable. Our brick color is gray. They said the color of the fence should go with the color of the brick. And they suggested GRAY color for our fence. I think this is ridiculous. First of all, why should I paint my fence gray and make it look hidious. We painted it oak color because that matched the original color of the wood closely and we liked the way it looked against our brick. We already told them why we chose the stain but they still want us to change the stain to gray. Can they wait until two and half years to complain about the stain color of our fence? Do we have any rights over this? There are dozens of houses in our neighborhood that didn't stain their fences and let them rot for years. I don't know why the HOA targeted us. We are very quiet people and never butt in anyone's business. Please suggest what we should do. Thanks. |
#3
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HOA giving grief about fence
The HOA can do whatever the HOA charter, bylaws, etc. say it
can do. You agreed to abide by the rules of the HOA when you bought the house. If you want to know what the HOA is allowed to do, go read the documents; they can tell you definitively. We can't. I suppose it's possible that the HOA documents specify a "statute of limitations" for HOA complaints against homeowner changes, but I doubt it. In short, it seems likely that the HOA can, in fact, tell you to change something 2 1/2 years after the fact. Perhaps the HOA waited 2 1/2 years to complain because they were trying to be nice to you -- they waited to tell you to repaint your fence until the old paint job was starting to wear and could benefit from being redone. Stain doesn't last forever. As for why the HOA targeted you, perhaps the "dozens of houses in [your] neighborhood that didn't stain their fences" aren't in violation of HOA rules, at least not in the opinion of the HOA board. After all, when unstained wood weathers, it turns a grey that some people find attractive; the fact that the HOA is suggesting that you paint your fence grey to match your house lends credence to this theory. It's also possible that there's a busy-body in your neighborhood who makes it his/her business to file HOA complaints about anyone he/she thinks is violating the rules. In fact, there may be people on the HOA board who look for violations. It's also possible that you made an enemy in your neighborhood. Just because you think you never bother other people, doesn't mean everyone else in your neighborhood thinks that. Finally, I doubt you have any way of knowing that the HOA "targeted" you; do you know for a fact that they haven't attempted to enforce the HOA rules on others in your neighborhood? You wrote, "Please suggest what we should do." What you should do is check with the HOA before making externally visible changes to your property. You didn't, and they have the right to demand that you bring your property into conformance. I think what you should do is repaint your fence. |
#4
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HOA giving grief about fence
And some people are stupid enough to claim that HOAs are a GOOD thing, that
should NOT be outlawed. Sheesh. -Dave |
#6
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HOA giving grief about fence
I will newer figure out the Americans.
First they send armies all over the world to fight communism and then they buy into a communistic housing. Retards at minimum. -Sub |
#7
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HOA giving grief about fence
Having real estate lawyers for a father, grandfather, uncle and cousin, and
a DA cousin, I can tell you that you need an attorney that specializes in real estate to sort this all out for you. Real estate law is complicated and you can get yourself into a real mess if you are not careful. Good luck. "ted" wrote in message om... Hi, Please help us in our new 'situation'. Our HOA is giving us grief over our fence color. We painted our fence a light oak color stain TWO AND HALF years ago. The HOA sent us a notice yesterday saying the color is unacceptable. Our brick color is gray. They said the color of the fence should go with the color of the brick. And they suggested GRAY color for our fence. I think this is ridiculous. First of all, why should I paint my fence gray and make it look hidious. We painted it oak color because that matched the original color of the wood closely and we liked the way it looked against our brick. We already told them why we chose the stain but they still want us to change the stain to gray. Can they wait until two and half years to complain about the stain color of our fence? Do we have any rights over this? There are dozens of houses in our neighborhood that didn't stain their fences and let them rot for years. I don't know why the HOA targeted us. We are very quiet people and never butt in anyone's business. Please suggest what we should do. Thanks. |
#8
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HOA giving grief about fence
Typically HOAs require that external modifications to your property be
approved by a 'design review' committee. This usually requires you to submit plans that include drawings, dimensions and color schemes for fences, etc. It sounds worse than it is -- in my case our association wants drawings, dimensions, and color schemes (3 copies so they can file one and give the others to the committee for review.) There is no charge for submitting plans for approval and the committee typically gives you a decision very quickly. If you already got approval then you should be ok, but if you didn't then you may have to file for approval after the fact and make the color changes they are asking for unless you can get the committee to sign off on the color you prefer. The committee is probably made up of homeowner volunteers from your community who have been appointed by the HOA Board of Directors. I am afraid that there is typically no 'statute of limitations' in these matters, so the fact that the fence has been up for 2 1/2 years probably won't offer you any relaxation in what ever rules may be in place. If there is no committee then I am not sure who you should talk to at your HOA to resolve the issue -- I hope this is not the case. I don't see the need for a lawyer here. The community CC&R's probably give the HOA complete power to rule on this kind of issue, and at any rate the cost of the fence is probably less than what you would end up paying to litigate the matter even if there was a case. Try to keep things friendly with whomever you communicate with, it maximizes your chance to get a good result. The color scheme you used for the fence sounds very nice to me -- I hope you are able to work things out. (Heck its not like you painted the fence 'hard rock hotel' purple!!!) Best of luck in resolving the issue, steve ted wrote: Hi, Please help us in our new 'situation'. Our HOA is giving us grief over our fence color. We painted our fence a light oak color stain TWO AND HALF years ago. The HOA sent us a notice yesterday saying the color is unacceptable. Our brick color is gray. They said the color of the fence should go with the color of the brick. And they suggested GRAY color for our fence. I think this is ridiculous. First of all, why should I paint my fence gray and make it look hidious. We painted it oak color because that matched the original color of the wood closely and we liked the way it looked against our brick. We already told them why we chose the stain but they still want us to change the stain to gray. Can they wait until two and half years to complain about the stain color of our fence? Do we have any rights over this? There are dozens of houses in our neighborhood that didn't stain their fences and let them rot for years. I don't know why the HOA targeted us. We are very quiet people and never butt in anyone's business. Please suggest what we should do. Thanks. |
#9
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HOA giving grief about fence
HOAs can be a good thing, but if YOU cannot abide by their rules, then
don't ever buy into an HOA How would anybody abide by their rules, when the HOAs just pull rules out of their asses? Yeah, there's probably some language on the books that says the HOA can force you to paint your fence. It's the asinine enforcement that gets ya, though. Anybody who'd buy into an HOA needs professional help, and NOT from someone the HOA refers them to. -Dave |
#10
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HOA giving grief about fence
Don't feed the troll?
And who is gone drink the blood of the women and children you have bring home on the tips of your bayonets from your endless crusades against the communists and terrorist only to join them in HOA and sing "God bless America"? -Sub "Jonathan Kamens" wrote in message ... Please don't feed the troll. |
#11
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HOA giving grief about fence
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 23:17:27 GMT, "Dave C."
wrote: How would anybody abide by their rules, when the HOAs just pull rules out of their asses? You might be able to find out if you could pull your head out of yours! |
#12
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HOA giving grief about fence
"Betsy" -0 wrote in message ... Having real estate lawyers for a father, grandfather, uncle and cousin, and a DA cousin, I can tell you that you need an attorney that specializes in real estate to sort this all out for you. Real estate law is complicated and you can get yourself into a real mess if you are not careful. Good luck. So you buy your castle and you need good lawyer to live in it? Only in America, having American HOA dream. -Sub |
#13
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HOA giving grief about fence
"steve" wrote in message ... Typically HOAs require that external modifications to your property be approved by a 'design review' committee. This usually requires you to submit plans that include drawings, dimensions and color schemes for fences, etc. It sounds worse than it is -- in my case our association wants drawings, dimensions, and color schemes (3 copies so they can file one and give the others to the committee for review.) There is no charge for submitting plans for approval and the committee typically gives you a decision very quickly. If you already got approval then you should be ok, but if you didn't then you may have to file for approval after the fact and make the color changes they are asking for unless you can get the committee to sign off on the color you prefer. The committee is probably made up of homeowner volunteers from your community who have been appointed by the HOA Board of Directors. I am afraid that there is typically no 'statute of limitations' in these matters, so the fact that the fence has been up for 2 1/2 years probably won't offer you any relaxation in what ever rules may be in place. If there is no committee then I am not sure who you should talk to at your HOA to resolve the issue -- I hope this is not the case. I don't see the need for a lawyer here. The community CC&R's probably give the HOA complete power to rule on this kind of issue, and at any rate the cost of the fence is probably less than what you would end up paying to litigate the matter even if there was a case. Try to keep things friendly with whomever you communicate with, it maximizes your chance to get a good result. The color scheme you used for the fence sounds very nice to me -- I hope you are able to work things out. (Heck its not like you painted the fence 'hard rock hotel' purple!!!) Best of luck in resolving the issue, steve Have you ever try to enforce your righteous theories in the court of law? Try it! You may finally mature by doing so, child. -Sub |
#14
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HOA giving grief about fence
Bert Hyman wrote:
First of all, why should I paint my fence gray and make it look hidious. Because you chose to live in a development with a Home Owner's Association. And more importantly, you agreed to follow the HOA rules. You have read the HOA rules, right? |
#15
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HOA giving grief about fence
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 00:24:58 GMT, "Subcomandante" wrote:
"steve" wrote in message ... Typically HOAs require that external modifications to your property be approved by a 'design review' committee. This usually requires you to submit plans that include drawings, dimensions and color schemes for fences, etc. It sounds worse than it is -- in my case our association wants drawings, dimensions, and color schemes (3 copies so they can file one and give the others to the committee for review.) There is no charge for submitting plans for approval and the committee typically gives you a decision very quickly. If you already got approval then you should be ok, but if you didn't then you may have to file for approval after the fact and make the color changes they are asking for unless you can get the committee to sign off on the color you prefer. The committee is probably made up of homeowner volunteers from your community who have been appointed by the HOA Board of Directors. I am afraid that there is typically no 'statute of limitations' in these matters, so the fact that the fence has been up for 2 1/2 years probably won't offer you any relaxation in what ever rules may be in place. If there is no committee then I am not sure who you should talk to at your HOA to resolve the issue -- I hope this is not the case. I don't see the need for a lawyer here. The community CC&R's probably give the HOA complete power to rule on this kind of issue, and at any rate the cost of the fence is probably less than what you would end up paying to litigate the matter even if there was a case. Try to keep things friendly with whomever you communicate with, it maximizes your chance to get a good result. The color scheme you used for the fence sounds very nice to me -- I hope you are able to work things out. (Heck its not like you painted the fence 'hard rock hotel' purple!!!) Best of luck in resolving the issue, steve Have you ever try to enforce your righteous theories in the court of law? Try it! You may finally mature by doing so, child. -Sub Sub, I don't know what your problem is but I thought Steve's answer was more factual and informative than your flaming remarks. Maybe you need experience living in an HOA community to speak from experience. |
#16
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HOA giving grief about fence
"Clark W. Griswold, Jr." wrote in message ... Bert Hyman wrote: First of all, why should I paint my fence gray and make it look hidious. Because you chose to live in a development with a Home Owner's Association. And more importantly, you agreed to follow the HOA rules. You have read the HOA rules, right? Have you try to enforce them in the court of law? -Sub |
#17
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HOA giving grief about fence
"frankg" wrote in message ... On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 00:24:58 GMT, "Subcomandante" wrote: "steve" wrote in message ... Typically HOAs require that external modifications to your property be approved by a 'design review' committee. This usually requires you to submit plans that include drawings, dimensions and color schemes for fences, etc. It sounds worse than it is -- in my case our association wants drawings, dimensions, and color schemes (3 copies so they can file one and give the others to the committee for review.) There is no charge for submitting plans for approval and the committee typically gives you a decision very quickly. If you already got approval then you should be ok, but if you didn't then you may have to file for approval after the fact and make the color changes they are asking for unless you can get the committee to sign off on the color you prefer. The committee is probably made up of homeowner volunteers from your community who have been appointed by the HOA Board of Directors. I am afraid that there is typically no 'statute of limitations' in these matters, so the fact that the fence has been up for 2 1/2 years probably won't offer you any relaxation in what ever rules may be in place. If there is no committee then I am not sure who you should talk to at your HOA to resolve the issue -- I hope this is not the case. I don't see the need for a lawyer here. The community CC&R's probably give the HOA complete power to rule on this kind of issue, and at any rate the cost of the fence is probably less than what you would end up paying to litigate the matter even if there was a case. Try to keep things friendly with whomever you communicate with, it maximizes your chance to get a good result. The color scheme you used for the fence sounds very nice to me -- I hope you are able to work things out. (Heck its not like you painted the fence 'hard rock hotel' purple!!!) Best of luck in resolving the issue, steve Have you ever try to enforce your righteous theories in the court of law? Try it! You may finally mature by doing so, child. -Sub Sub, I don't know what your problem is but I thought Steve's answer was more factual and informative than your flaming remarks. Maybe you need experience living in an HOA community to speak from experience. Unless you have ever try to enforce your rights based on the CC&Rs and R&R in the court of law you just blowing hat air. They are meaningless to you as a homeowner. In contrast the association can fry you with them. -Sub |
#18
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HOA giving grief about fence
Having real estate lawyers for a father, grandfather, uncle and cousin, and
a DA cousin, I can tell you that you need an attorney that specializes in real estate to sort this all out for you. Obviously you're biased towards lawyers. Just read the damn HOA documents and see what the statute of limitations is, and whether or not they can dictate the color of a fence. |
#19
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HOA giving grief about fence
"Betsy" -0 wrote in message ...
Having real estate lawyers for a father, grandfather, uncle and cousin, and a DA cousin, I can tell you that you need an attorney that specializes in real estate to sort this all out for you. Real estate law is complicated and you can get yourself into a real mess if you are not careful. Good luck. That would be true if you were determined to breach the CC&Rs and keep the fence color over the HOA's objections, or if you had a suit-happy HOA that threatened to file liens over every alleged violation. If the OP is still interested in cooperating with the HOA, then there's no reason to escalate it to lawyer involvement. But if the OP wishes to make the case that the HOA is bound not to enforce the CC&Rs against him, say because they have not enforced against other homeowners with similar fences, then you're right, he needs professional assistance. -- Chris Green |
#20
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HOA giving grief about fence
No, I'm not really. I never knew that lawyers could have a bad reputation,
because I grew up with honest upright relatives, who wouldn't even take divorce cases, and turned down more cases than they took, and forgot to bill or to collect routinely. However, I worked for an "accident attorney" when I was 23 and believe me, my eyes were opened fast. I still stand by my advice. Contract law and Real Estate law are complicated things, and it is for precisely that reason that these attorneys exist. In the Law, wording is EVERYTHING. And you may not understand what the legal definition of a word is, in your state, in your county. The HOA may not have a leg to stand on, based on the document you signed. A lawyer may be able to find you a loophole, if all else fails! Do you remember Bill Clinton's defense when asked a pointed question? "Depends on how you define IS". He knew whereof he spoke, as he was an attorney! "Larry Bud" wrote in message om... Having real estate lawyers for a father, grandfather, uncle and cousin, and a DA cousin, I can tell you that you need an attorney that specializes in real estate to sort this all out for you. Obviously you're biased towards lawyers. Just read the damn HOA documents and see what the statute of limitations is, and whether or not they can dictate the color of a fence. |
#21
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HOA giving grief about fence
It might help if you could get all the neighbors within viewing distance of
the fence to sign a petition saying your fence color is ok with them. Than, very nicely, ask the board to approve your fence color. Ass kissing and groveling may be neccessary. It's the price of HOA liveing. Otherwise, paint the fence whatever color they want. "ted" wrote in message om... Hi, Please help us in our new 'situation'. Our HOA is giving us grief over our fence color. We painted our fence a light oak color stain TWO AND HALF years ago. The HOA sent us a notice yesterday saying the color is unacceptable. Our brick color is gray. They said the color of the fence should go with the color of the brick. And they suggested GRAY color for our fence. I think this is ridiculous. First of all, why should I paint my fence gray and make it look hidious. We painted it oak color because that matched the original color of the wood closely and we liked the way it looked against our brick. We already told them why we chose the stain but they still want us to change the stain to gray. Can they wait until two and half years to complain about the stain color of our fence? Do we have any rights over this? There are dozens of houses in our neighborhood that didn't stain their fences and let them rot for years. I don't know why the HOA targeted us. We are very quiet people and never butt in anyone's business. Please suggest what we should do. Thanks. |
#22
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HOA giving grief about fence
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:54:42 -0500, someone wrote:
It might help if you could get all the neighbors within viewing distance of the fence to sign a petition saying your fence color is ok with them. Or it may turn out that some of these very same neighbors are the ones who complained to the HOA. -v. |
#23
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HOA giving grief about fence
"v" wrote in message ... On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:54:42 -0500, someone wrote: It might help if you could get all the neighbors within viewing distance of the fence to sign a petition saying your fence color is ok with them. Or it may turn out that some of these very same neighbors are the ones who complained to the HOA. -v. In the socialistic driven clique the later is most likely. -Sub |
#24
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HOA giving grief about fence
Hey Sub, Lay Off. Steve and Frank are right. And I HAVE tried
enforcing my CC&R rights and HAVE been successful. Diplomacy and a little bit of legal research was the key for me. Anyone looking to fight HOA's on something like this might consider: 1)Engage other community members-We formed a committee. We started with four people and grew to about 35 in three weeks. Hold regular meetings. If you don't know how to start just invite a few neighbors who've had issues with your HOA over for cake, coffee, and a gripe session. 2)Read ALL your community documents (Articles of Incorporation, Bylaws, & Declarations) and look for ambiguous language (i.e. "aesthetically pleasing" "reasonable length of time" "matching colors", etc.), as well as how rules are enforced (fines, recourse you may have, etc.). If you don't have these documents, your HOA is required to give them to you, though there could be a charge if you've already been sent them before. (this amountis often regulated by State Statutes, so don't let them charge you 50 cents a page or something). 3)Look up your State Statutes, including State Senate Bills and House Bills, which include recent amendments to statutes. It's all on the Internet. I found something in the AZ Senate Bills that allows for a special Appeals committee, where the homeowner is involved in choosing two of the three committee members (one the homeowner chooses, one the HOA chooses, and one is chosesn by both). 4)Do open petitions and letters to the community about your concerns to get the word out. 5)Look up in your Articles of Incorporation and State Statutes how to remove an abusive or incompetent Board member. There's more, but that's a start-- Signed, "Not Full of Hot Air" |
#25
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HOA giving grief about fence
"Linda" wrote in message om... Hey Sub, Lay Off. Steve and Frank are right. And I HAVE tried enforcing my CC&R rights and HAVE been successful. Diplomacy and a little bit of legal research was the key for me. Anyone looking to fight HOA's on something like this might consider: 1)Engage other community members-We formed a committee. We started with four people and grew to about 35 in three weeks. Hold regular meetings. If you don't know how to start just invite a few neighbors who've had issues with your HOA over for cake, coffee, and a gripe session. 2)Read ALL your community documents (Articles of Incorporation, Bylaws, & Declarations) and look for ambiguous language (i.e. "aesthetically pleasing" "reasonable length of time" "matching colors", etc.), as well as how rules are enforced (fines, recourse you may have, etc.). If you don't have these documents, your HOA is required to give them to you, though there could be a charge if you've already been sent them before. (this amountis often regulated by State Statutes, so don't let them charge you 50 cents a page or something). 3)Look up your State Statutes, including State Senate Bills and House Bills, which include recent amendments to statutes. It's all on the Internet. I found something in the AZ Senate Bills that allows for a special Appeals committee, where the homeowner is involved in choosing two of the three committee members (one the homeowner chooses, one the HOA chooses, and one is chosesn by both). 4)Do open petitions and letters to the community about your concerns to get the word out. 5)Look up in your Articles of Incorporation and State Statutes how to remove an abusive or incompetent Board member. There's more, but that's a start-- Signed, "Not Full of Hot Air" You must understand Linda, I am beyond the Bolshevik approach to the HOA problems which you are proposing. To me the bottom line is: Am I landlord or not?..... Am I free or not?...... Am I in servitude or not?...... If the answer is yes an abolishment of the HOA is the only answer. Uplift yourselves above the bolshevism people! Freedom is the all! -Sub |
#26
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HOA giving grief about fence
The problem is that more and more newer homes are in subdivisions with
HOAs. Then the only choice is to buy older. -=- Alan On 10/24/03 11:25 am Bill Seurer put fingers to keyboard and launched the following message into cyberspace: I am beyond the Bolshevik approach to the HOA problems which you are proposing. To me the bottom line is: Am I landlord or not?..... Am I free or not?...... Am I in servitude or not?...... If the answer is yes an abolishment of the HOA is the only answer. If you don't like HOA then don't sign into one. Period. |
#27
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HOA giving grief about fence
Subcomandante wrote:
I am beyond the Bolshevik approach to the HOA problems which you are proposing. To me the bottom line is: Am I landlord or not?..... Am I free or not?...... Am I in servitude or not?...... If the answer is yes an abolishment of the HOA is the only answer. If you don't like HOA then don't sign into one. Period. |
#28
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HOA giving grief about fence
In article , Alan Beagley wrote:
The problem is that more and more newer homes are in subdivisions with HOAs. Then the only choice is to buy older. If you want something that was well-made, that's your only choice anyway. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com) |
#29
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HOA giving grief about fence
"Bill Seurer" wrote in message ... Subcomandante wrote: I am beyond the Bolshevik approach to the HOA problems which you are proposing. To me the bottom line is: Am I landlord or not?..... Am I free or not?...... Am I in servitude or not?...... If the answer is yes an abolishment of the HOA is the only answer. If you don't like HOA then don't sign into one. Period. In this famous and proudly (free?) country, there should newer be a document submitted to you for signing which states: "The covenants and restrictions in the declaration shall be enforceable equitable servitudes" Cal. Civil Code 1354(a)" Although you have no problem to sign such document and live like slave tied into a servitude, I do. But, you are probably one of these idiots who will say: "Search me without a warrant, I have noting to hide" too. You are probably the obedient American Bolshevik. -Sub |
#30
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HOA giving grief about fence
"Subcomandante" wrote in message ... "Bill Seurer" wrote in message ... Subcomandante wrote: I am beyond the Bolshevik approach to the HOA problems which you are proposing. To me the bottom line is: Am I landlord or not?..... Am I free or not?...... Am I in servitude or not?...... If the answer is yes an abolishment of the HOA is the only answer. If you don't like HOA then don't sign into one. Period. In this famous and proudly (free?) country, there should newer be a document submitted to you for signing which states: "The covenants and restrictions in the declaration shall be enforceable equitable servitudes" Cal. Civil Code 1354(a)" Then don't sign it -- and don't move there -- why insist on making yourself a victim? |
#31
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HOA giving grief about fence
"Doug Miller" wrote in message news In article , Alan Beagley wrote: The problem is that more and more newer homes are in subdivisions with HOAs. Then the only choice is to buy older. If you want something that was well-made, that's your only choice anyway. That's quite a sweeping and often untrue statement. |
#32
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HOA giving grief about fence
"me" wrote in message ... "Subcomandante" wrote in message ... "Bill Seurer" wrote in message ... Subcomandante wrote: I am beyond the Bolshevik approach to the HOA problems which you are proposing. To me the bottom line is: Am I landlord or not?..... Am I free or not?...... Am I in servitude or not?...... If the answer is yes an abolishment of the HOA is the only answer. If you don't like HOA then don't sign into one. Period. In this famous and proudly (free?) country, there should newer be a document submitted to you for signing which states: "The covenants and restrictions in the declaration shall be enforceable equitable servitudes" Cal. Civil Code 1354(a)" Then don't sign it -- and don't move there -- why insist on making yourself a victim? You Bolsheviks will newer get it will you? According to you any scam is a game. Huh? My Social security card clearly states: "FOR SOCIAL SECURITY AND TAX PURPOSES -- NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION". Yet thanks to idiots like you, I must use it as my ID like it or not, law or not. When ever you will understand a morality of the business. As long as you will sign CC&Rs, I must to sign them too, like it or not. As long as you are willing to be a slave I must be one too. It is called a society. The only solutions is to educate 90% of American moron mongoloids to read the constitution and then live by it words. -Sub |
#33
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HOA giving grief about fence
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:06:27 GMT, someone wrote:
Yet thanks to idiots like you, I must use it as my ID like it or not, law or not. When ever you will understand a morality of the business. As long as you will sign CC&Rs, I must to sign them too, like it or not. As long as you are willing to be a slave I must be one too. Crackpot nutcase. Internet full of them. -v. |
#34
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HOA giving grief about fence
"v" wrote in message ... On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 20:06:27 GMT, someone wrote: Yet thanks to idiots like you, I must use it as my ID like it or not, law or not. When ever you will understand a morality of the business. As long as you will sign CC&Rs, I must to sign them too, like it or not. As long as you are willing to be a slave I must be one too. Crackpot nutcase. Internet full of them. -v. That is why you are participating? -Sub |
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