The gas company recently sent homeowners on my street a notice that
they will be installing natural gas service over the next couple of
months. The timing couldn't be better from my point of view. I have a
10 year-old oil tank the insurance co. wants replaced, and a furnace
(FHA) that dates from the early 70s. I also have a rented oil-fired hot
water heater. To my mind, a gas conversion was a no-brainer since all
those things need to go away soon.

I've gotten 2 quotes so far and was astounded at the cost. The
equipment itself isn't the problem -- but in both cases the
installation costs were over $3000, in one case closer to $4000. This
for what one contractor told me was a 1-day job (for a crew of course).
This seems awfully rich, because the entire job (furnace, water heater,
elec air cleaner) is coming in between $7,000 to $8,000. I am told they
will run gas pipe to the equipment from the meter, install everything,
connect the furnace to the existing ductwork (with whatever needs to be
adapted for that), run exhaust either thru the wall or up the chimney
with a liner, and remove the old equipment. The house is a mid-50s
bungalow with an 8-foot basement where the equipment lives. The
furnaces are both 75,000 BTU hi-efficiency gas units (higher-priced was
a Lennox, the other a Tempstar).

Is this a reasonable cost or am I missing something here?

kp wrote:
The gas company recently sent homeowners on my street a notice that
they will be installing natural gas service over the next couple of
months. The timing couldn't be better from my point of view. I have a
10 year-old oil tank the insurance co. wants replaced, and a furnace
(FHA) that dates from the early 70s. I also have a rented oil-fired hot
water heater. To my mind, a gas conversion was a no-brainer since all
those things need to go away soon.

I've gotten 2 quotes so far and was astounded at the cost. The
equipment itself isn't the problem -- but in both cases the
installation costs were over $3000, in one case closer to $4000. This
for what one contractor told me was a 1-day job (for a crew of course).
This seems awfully rich, because the entire job (furnace, water heater,
elec air cleaner) is coming in between $7,000 to $8,000. I am told they
will run gas pipe to the equipment from the meter, install everything,
connect the furnace to the existing ductwork (with whatever needs to be
adapted for that), run exhaust either thru the wall or up the chimney
with a liner, and remove the old equipment. The house is a mid-50s
bungalow with an 8-foot basement where the equipment lives. The
furnaces are both 75,000 BTU hi-efficiency gas units (higher-priced was
a Lennox, the other a Tempstar).

Is this a reasonable cost or am I missing something here?

It seems high, a state government agency in Wisconsin has estimated
$3500 for an average replacement.

You might want to omit the electronic air cleaner since your furnace
isn't going to be running all the time.

Be sure to have the furnace put on a dedicated electric circuit.

If air conditioning makes sense in your area, make it possible to add
it later.

I had the exhaust run directly through the wall. You may want to draw
outside air directly to the furnace to avoid a drafty basement (it will
require another pipe).

--
Ron

"kp" writes:
I've gotten 2 quotes so far and was astounded at the cost. The
equipment itself isn't the problem -- but in both cases the
installation costs were over $3000, in one case closer to $4000. This
for what one contractor told me was a 1-day job (for a crew of course).
This seems awfully rich, because the entire job (furnace, water heater,
elec air cleaner) is coming in between $7,000 to $8,000. I am told they
will run gas pipe to the equipment from the meter, install everything,
connect the furnace to the existing ductwork (with whatever needs to be
adapted for that), run exhaust either thru the wall or up the chimney
with a liner, and remove the old equipment. The house is a mid-50s
bungalow with an 8-foot basement where the equipment lives. The
furnaces are both 75,000 BTU hi-efficiency gas units (higher-priced was
a Lennox, the other a Tempstar).

Is this a reasonable cost or am I missing something here?

Doesn't sound that bad to me. It's a big job and running those
exhausts and laying pipe for the meter, etc is fairly labor intensive.

While yer at it, you might look into a high efficiency wood pellet
stove to be worked in there somehow too. Its cost per BTU is less
than methane presently. Or see if geothermal heat pump might be
something worth investigating for its lower long term operating costs.

The gas line you'll need anyway, but it may be worth at least
investigating some other heating options since you're sorta starting
fresh.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

(Todd H.) wrote:

While yer at it, you might look into a high efficiency wood pellet
stove to be worked in there somehow too. Its cost per BTU is less
than methane presently.

Natural gas is running about 1/3 the cost of pellet heat and that's at $3.20 a
bag ($160/ton). You can run the numbers against your gas and electric rates
he

http://www.warmair.net/html/fuel_cost_comparisons.htm

Or see if geothermal heat pump might be
something worth investigating for its lower long term operating costs.

Would be very cool if you can handle the install costs and have the ground that
supports trenches over wells. Else it gets very expensive to install.

"Clark W. Griswold, Jr." writes:

(Todd H.) wrote:

While yer at it, you might look into a high efficiency wood pellet
stove to be worked in there somehow too. Its cost per BTU is less
than methane presently.

Natural gas is running about 1/3 the cost of pellet heat and that's at $3.20 a
bag ($160/ton). You can run the numbers against your gas and electric rates
he

http://www.warmair.net/html/fuel_cost_comparisons.htm

Woof. Wow... didn't realize pellets had gotten that pricey.

Or see if geothermal heat pump might be
something worth investigating for its lower long term operating costs.

Would be very cool if you can handle the install costs and have the ground that
supports trenches over wells. Else it gets very expensive to install.

--
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

On 2 Aug 2006 13:23:12 -0700, someone wrote:

I've gotten 2 quotes so far and was astounded at the cost....

So get quote #3 or even #4, and see if you are still surprised.

It may just come down to, if you don't like what they are charging,
then don't do it. But if you want the work done, that is what it
costs, no matter what you think it "should" cost.

Unless you have some plausible evidence that the first two contractors
knew each other and discussed their bids with each other, that the two
bids came in with numbers in a similar ballpark, BOTH of which were
not to your expectations, then it sugests the problem MIGHT be in your
expectations. So go get a 3rd bid.


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.

You know the local contractors are aware of the gas line install and
may try making a killing on the residents

Just for the heck of it get prices from more folks including sears home
depot and lowes.

big companies probably charge more on average but are less likely to
gouge converting residents....

"kp" wrote in message
oups.com...
The gas company recently sent homeowners on my street a notice that
they will be installing natural gas service over the next couple of
months. The timing couldn't be better from my point of view. I have a
10 year-old oil tank the insurance co. wants replaced, and a furnace
(FHA) that dates from the early 70s. I also have a rented oil-fired hot
water heater. To my mind, a gas conversion was a no-brainer since all
those things need to go away soon.

I've gotten 2 quotes so far and was astounded at the cost. The
equipment itself isn't the problem -- but in both cases the
installation costs were over $3000, in one case closer to $4000. This
for what one contractor told me was a 1-day job (for a crew of course).
This seems awfully rich, because the entire job (furnace, water heater,
elec air cleaner) is coming in between $7,000 to $8,000. I am told they
will run gas pipe to the equipment from the meter, install everything,
connect the furnace to the existing ductwork (with whatever needs to be
adapted for that), run exhaust either thru the wall or up the chimney
with a liner, and remove the old equipment. The house is a mid-50s
bungalow with an 8-foot basement where the equipment lives. The
furnaces are both 75,000 BTU hi-efficiency gas units (higher-priced was
a Lennox, the other a Tempstar).

Is this a reasonable cost or am I missing something here?


I wouldn't pay more than $3500 for the furnace and water heater including a
10 year parts/labor warranty.

I just had a condensing gas furnace (75k, Armstrong) installed for $2400
which included both intake and exhaust PVC pipes. The water heater should
only be another $600 max more. You should expect to pay extra for the gas
pipe to the meter. I'm not sure if the chimney will need a liner with ONLY
the water heater vented to it. All this is no more than a long day's work
for ONE person providing the gas and venting lines are not too complex. Keep
looking for quotes. I found that the one/two man shops with small ads in the
yellow pages provided the best quotes, some of the larger companies were up
to $5000 just for the furnace!!! . Make sure they pull a permit BEFORE the
job. Make sure the furnace is sized correctly for your home's heat loss.

Martik wrote:
I wouldn't pay more than $3500 for the furnace and water heater including a
10 year parts/labor warranty.

I just had a condensing gas furnace (75k, Armstrong) installed for $2400
which included both intake and exhaust PVC pipes. The water heater should
only be another $600 max more. You should expect to pay extra for the gas
pipe to the meter. I'm not sure if the chimney will need a liner with ONLY
the water heater vented to it. All this is no more than a long day's work
for ONE person providing the gas and venting lines are not too complex. Keep
looking for quotes. I found that the one/two man shops with small ads in the
yellow pages provided the best quotes, some of the larger companies were up
to $5000 just for the furnace!!! . Make sure they pull a permit BEFORE the
job. Make sure the furnace is sized correctly for your home's heat loss.

Thanks for this -- just for info, the breakdiwn I got from the lowest
of the 2 quotes went like this (all numbers are in Canadian dollars,
but that's not much difference these days from US):

Furnace $1950 (92% eff. Tempstar)
HW heater 40 gal forced vent $1250
Elec. air cleaner $600

Installation & removal $3200

This is from a 2-man shop and I like these guys from what I've seen to
date. The other quote is from a bigger outfit and is about $500 more.

Gas is relatively new to this area and there are only about 1000 homes
using it, so there ins't a lot of experience among contractors nor a
lot of choice.

"kp" wrote in message
oups.com...

Martik wrote:
I wouldn't pay more than $3500 for the furnace and water heater including
a
10 year parts/labor warranty.

I just had a condensing gas furnace (75k, Armstrong) installed for $2400
which included both intake and exhaust PVC pipes. The water heater should
only be another $600 max more. You should expect to pay extra for the gas
pipe to the meter. I'm not sure if the chimney will need a liner with
ONLY
the water heater vented to it. All this is no more than a long day's work
for ONE person providing the gas and venting lines are not too complex.
Keep
looking for quotes. I found that the one/two man shops with small ads in
the
yellow pages provided the best quotes, some of the larger companies were
up
to $5000 just for the furnace!!! . Make sure they pull a permit BEFORE
the
job. Make sure the furnace is sized correctly for your home's heat loss.

Thanks for this -- just for info, the breakdiwn I got from the lowest
of the 2 quotes went like this (all numbers are in Canadian dollars,
but that's not much difference these days from US):

Furnace $1950 (92% eff. Tempstar)
HW heater 40 gal forced vent $1250
Elec. air cleaner $600

Installation & removal $3200

This is from a 2-man shop and I like these guys from what I've seen to
date. The other quote is from a bigger outfit and is about $500 more.

Gas is relatively new to this area and there are only about 1000 homes
using it, so there ins't a lot of experience among contractors nor a
lot of choice.


That's a heck of a lot of money for 2 guys to make in 1 day!

Where in Canada are you?

Martik wrote:
"kp" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for this -- just for info, the breakdiwn I got from the lowest
of the 2 quotes went like this (all numbers are in Canadian dollars,
but that's not much difference these days from US):

Furnace $1950 (92% eff. Tempstar)
HW heater 40 gal forced vent $1250
Elec. air cleaner $600

Installation & removal $3200

This is from a 2-man shop and I like these guys from what I've seen to
date. The other quote is from a bigger outfit and is about $500 more.

That's a heck of a lot of money for 2 guys to make in 1 day!

That's why I posed the question.

Where in Canada are you?

Nova Scotia.

kp wrote:

Furnace $1950 (92% eff. Tempstar)
HW heater 40 gal forced vent $1250

I recently replaced a 40 gal forced vent HW for around $900 US.

Elec. air cleaner $600

You really don't need that.

Installation & removal $3200

That does seem high. Have them itemize what's involved.

--
Ron

"kp" wrote in message
oups.com...
The gas company recently sent homeowners on my street a notice that
they will be installing natural gas service over the next couple of
months. The timing couldn't be better from my point of view. I have a
10 year-old oil tank the insurance co. wants replaced,

Why? I've seen many tanks 50+ years old with no problems. That seems to be
outrageous to me.

I don't know about the costs, but gas is much nicer than oil for a furnace.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"kp" wrote in message
oups.com...
The gas company recently sent homeowners on my street a notice that
they will be installing natural gas service over the next couple of
months. The timing couldn't be better from my point of view. I have a
10 year-old oil tank the insurance co. wants replaced,

Why? I've seen many tanks 50+ years old with no problems. That seems to be
outrageous to me.

I don't know about the costs, but gas is much nicer than oil for a furnace.

The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product, is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.

With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from, you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages
from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.

Also if you want to be "green" you can burn biodiesel and/or waste veg.
oil in your oil furnace as well, something you can't do with a gas
furnace.

Pete C.

"Pete C." wrote in message
The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product, is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.


With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from, you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages
from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.

In spite of all your "cons' of gas, if it was available to me tomorrow, I'd
change tomorrow. Do you honestly think oil is competitive in price? The
dealers in this area are doing rather well for themselves and price between
them varies a couple of pennies at best. Gas remains competitive to oil
when priced in therms in most regions.

I've lived with gas for many years in previous houses and we still use it at
work. In all of those years, I've never had an outage, but my oil dealer did
run me out twice. In my lifetime (60 years) the score is Gas 0, Oil 2.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

In spite of all your "cons' of gas, if it was available to me tomorrow, I'd
change tomorrow. Do you honestly think oil is competitive in price? The
dealers in this area are doing rather well for themselves and price between
them varies a couple of pennies at best. Gas remains competitive to oil
when priced in therms in most regions.

While I agree with you in principle, there are regional variations that make
natural gas and fuel oil very close in pricing.

There was a time when natural gas was substantially less than fuel oil, but then
the utilities built a bunch of peak demand electricity plants fueled by natural
gas and that increased demand to the point that the gap is much smaller.

All energy is tied anyway, so increases in one for any reason will drive the
others.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product, is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.


With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from, you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages
from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.

In spite of all your "cons' of gas, if it was available to me tomorrow, I'd
change tomorrow. Do you honestly think oil is competitive in price? The
dealers in this area are doing rather well for themselves and price between
them varies a couple of pennies at best. Gas remains competitive to oil
when priced in therms in most regions.

The last time I looked (not this year) there were significant
differences in oil supplier costs on the order of $0.15+/gal. They also
give senior discounts that my mother takes advantage of that are another
$0.05/gal and a COD (really 3 day) discount that is a few more cents /
gal.

Do your gas price comparisons include the amount that the gas monopolies
charge you every month even if you use no gas? There is no such thing
with oil companies and maintenance contracts are a separate thing
applicable to both oil and gas.


I've lived with gas for many years in previous houses and we still use it at
work. In all of those years, I've never had an outage, but my oil dealer did
run me out twice. In my lifetime (60 years) the score is Gas 0, Oil 2.

Sorry I don't have 60 years of experience, but in 36 years I have never
experienced a single oil outage. Even if I did have an outage, all it
would mean is a trip to my local gas station for a couple 5gal cans of
diesel which would last several days until a regular oil delivery,
something that is not an option with gas. No need for "emergency
deliveries.

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:
The last time I looked (not this year) there were significant
differences in oil supplier costs on the order of $0.15+/gal. They also
give senior discounts that my mother takes advantage of that are another
$0.05/gal and a COD (really 3 day) discount that is a few more cents /
gal.

Do your gas price comparisons include the amount that the gas monopolies
charge you every month even if you use no gas? There is no such thing
with oil companies and maintenance contracts are a separate thing
applicable to both oil and gas.


I've lived with gas for many years in previous houses and we still use it at
work. In all of those years, I've never had an outage, but my oil dealer did
run me out twice. In my lifetime (60 years) the score is Gas 0, Oil 2.

Sorry I don't have 60 years of experience, but in 36 years I have never
experienced a single oil outage. Even if I did have an outage, all it
would mean is a trip to my local gas station for a couple 5gal cans of
diesel which would last several days until a regular oil delivery,
something that is not an option with gas. No need for "emergency
deliveries.

Pete C.


I'd take gas in a minute over oil any day. I've had homes with both
and in my experience, gas is far more reliable. The core of the
problem is oil has to rely on spraying pressurized oil out of a hole
the size of a human hair. It's common for the nozzle to get fouled and
then the burner won't light. Plus, oil requires regular cleaning of
the burner, replacement of the nozzle and fuel filter, etc. In my
current home, I've been here 10 years and have never had to have a
service call on my gas furnace, while it was common with oil heat.

I don't know where you live that you are so concerned with nat gas
outage. In 25 years of nat gas service, I've never had it go out for
even an hour. For the vast majority of folks, they are far more likely
to lose electric power, and they don't have generators, which puts them
out of commission. So, why worry about the far more remote possibility
of a gas outage?

"Pete C." wrote:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product, is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.


With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from, you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages
from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.

In spite of all your "cons' of gas, if it was available to me tomorrow, I'd
change tomorrow. Do you honestly think oil is competitive in price? The
dealers in this area are doing rather well for themselves and price between
them varies a couple of pennies at best. Gas remains competitive to oil
when priced in therms in most regions.

The last time I looked (not this year) there were significant
differences in oil supplier costs on the order of $0.15+/gal. They also
give senior discounts that my mother takes advantage of that are another
$0.05/gal and a COD (really 3 day) discount that is a few more cents /
gal.

Do your gas price comparisons include the amount that the gas monopolies
charge you every month even if you use no gas? There is no such thing
with oil companies and maintenance contracts are a separate thing
applicable to both oil and gas.

The price differences between oil suppliers are negligible, as they are all buying
their oil in the same local market from the same common carriers, unless your oil
company also has a terminal to import the middle east crude and refine it. Or
some distributors are jacking up the price. Last year, oil companies jacked up
prices for non contract customers in a hurry and they went down very slowly. Our
NG prices rised a little a few months later and then tapered back significantly
mid way through the winter. Our gas service is still cheaper than the "cheap" oil
companies, and our furnace is a lot more cleaner burning and efficient too.

If you are against regulated monopolies, than your argument is also the same for
opposing electricity service (and maybe water too).




I've lived with gas for many years in previous houses and we still use it at
work. In all of those years, I've never had an outage, but my oil dealer did
run me out twice. In my lifetime (60 years) the score is Gas 0, Oil 2.

Sorry I don't have 60 years of experience, but in 36 years I have never
experienced a single oil outage. Even if I did have an outage, all it
would mean is a trip to my local gas station for a couple 5gal cans of
diesel which would last several days until a regular oil delivery,
something that is not an option with gas. No need for "emergency
deliveries.

Hope you're around to do that and not on vacation. Oh by the way, if we do have a
power failure, we can still take lots of hot showers and cook on our stove
indefinitely.

Oil is a great choice if you have no natural gas service available and your
climate is too cold for heat pumps.

Pete C. wrote:


Do your gas price comparisons include the amount that the gas monopolies
charge you every month even if you use no gas?

Pretty unlikely not to use gas for cooking, hot water and clothes drying
year round.

Then there is that tank you have to buy and install and need to
periodically replace.

There is no such thing
with oil companies and maintenance contracts are a separate thing
applicable to both oil and gas.

Maintenance is a lot more involved on an oil burner. You need to replace
nozzles, oil filters and clean the flue passages. When I looked at our
natural gas boiler after the first year there was no need to clean
anything and there are no filter or nozzles to replace. This has been
true for over 30 years. And since it doesn't need a high pressure pump
to atomize fuel electricity costs are lower.




I've lived with gas for many years in previous houses and we still use it at
work. In all of those years, I've never had an outage, but my oil dealer did
run me out twice. In my lifetime (60 years) the score is Gas 0, Oil 2.


Sorry I don't have 60 years of experience, but in 36 years I have never
experienced a single oil outage. Even if I did have an outage, all it
would mean is a trip to my local gas station for a couple 5gal cans of
diesel which would last several days until a regular oil delivery,
something that is not an option with gas. No need for "emergency
deliveries.

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:


The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product,


Explain how big oil isn't a monopopy. They are all in lock step with
each other. Most people who use gas tend to use it for hot water,
cooking and clothes drying so you tend to use it year round.



is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.

With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from,

Who all have to buy from the same source yielding little difference in
price.



you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages


No outage here in 35 years.


from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.

Also if you want to be "green" you can burn biodiesel and/or waste veg.
oil in your oil furnace as well, something you can't do with a gas
furnace.


A natural gas furnace is already "green" since it isn't a petroleum product.



Pete C.

George wrote:
Pete C. wrote:


The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product,


Explain how big oil isn't a monopopy. They are all in lock step with
each other. Most people who use gas tend to use it for hot water,
cooking and clothes drying so you tend to use it year round.

Actually, the major oil companies are clearly not monopolies. A
monopoly requires one single supplier. In the case of the major oil
companies, you have at least five. OPEC, a key component of the
equation is an oligopoly. But clearly this whole argument against nat
gas heat is all based on emotion, rather than fact. The price of
heating oil varies. The price of nat gas varies. Over the past, in my
experience, they have been similar enough in their total cost that it's
not a major difference.










is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.

With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from,

Who all have to buy from the same source yielding little difference in
price.



you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages


No outage here in 35 years.

I've asked several times where Pete lives that he thinks nat gas
interruption is a big concern. It obviously isn't for 95% of us who
use it. I've had nat gas service for 25+ years, that has never gone
out once. I live in central NJ, 50 miles from NYC. But I've sure had
electricity go out. And it;s the nature of the two systems that's key.
An underground piped system is immune from much of what can halt
electric service. A thrunderstorm, snow storm, car hitting a pole,
all are common electric system weak points, that gas generally is
immune from. Again, when you put this in perspective, the gas outtage
thing is another red herring.

If oil is so much better, why do only 4% of new homes use oil heat?





from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.

Yeah, it;s like arguing the size of an ant to the size of a mosquito.
Look at how many people actually die from a fall. It's orders of
magnitude larger. Should we get rid of bathtubs and tile floors too?



Also if you want to be "green" you can burn biodiesel and/or waste veg.
oil in your oil furnace as well, something you can't do with a gas
furnace.


A natural gas furnace is already "green" since it isn't a petroleum product.

That isn;t true, as gas furnaces generate CO2, which is the hottest
environmental issue of the moment. But, oil generates not only that,
but also NO, sulfur emissions, etc.





Pete C.

wrote:

But clearly this whole argument against nat
gas heat is all based on emotion, rather than fact. The price of
heating oil varies. The price of nat gas varies. Over the past, in my
experience, they have been similar enough in their total cost that it's
not a major difference.

There is definitely some regional bias involved. Historically, the US east coast
has used fuel oil for heat, so there tends to be a "this is how we've always
done it, so it must be right" mentality going on.

20+ years ago, oil was substantially more expensive than natural gas. The east
coast didn't have the supply infrastructure to distribute natural gas, so few
could take advantage of that differential.

With all the EPA restrictions on new power plants, utilities built gas fired
plants which sucked up most of the surplus gas and drove natural gas prices up
closer to fuel oil.

ConnocoPhillips has an interesting article with graphics that shows price
differences over the past 5 years:

http://www.conocophillips.com/newsro...eating_oil.htm

wrote:
George wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product,


Explain how big oil isn't a monopopy. They are all in lock step with
each other. Most people who use gas tend to use it for hot water,
cooking and clothes drying so you tend to use it year round.


Actually, the major oil companies are clearly not monopolies. A
monopoly requires one single supplier.

Agree, maybe I should have said "monopolistic behavior". But they are
all joined at the waist. My buddy works in an energy commodity business
and says behind the scenes they are all in lock step with each other
just as we see at the gas stations where "something may possibly happen
somewhere" and they all raise their prices.

In the case of the major oil
companies, you have at least five. OPEC, a key component of the
equation is an oligopoly. But clearly this whole argument against nat
gas heat is all based on emotion, rather than fact.
The price of
heating oil varies. The price of nat gas varies. Over the past, in my
experience, they have been similar enough in their total cost that it's
not a major difference.


Exactly, there are pros and cons and it is typicallu a wash.

wrote:

George wrote:
Pete C. wrote:


The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product,


Explain how big oil isn't a monopopy. They are all in lock step with
each other. Most people who use gas tend to use it for hot water,
cooking and clothes drying so you tend to use it year round.

Actually, the major oil companies are clearly not monopolies. A
monopoly requires one single supplier. In the case of the major oil
companies, you have at least five. OPEC, a key component of the
equation is an oligopoly.

Right.

But clearly this whole argument against nat
gas heat is all based on emotion, rather than fact. The price of
heating oil varies. The price of nat gas varies. Over the past, in my
experience, they have been similar enough in their total cost that it's
not a major difference.

Completely false. This argument against nat. gas is based on facts about
it's safety, reliability, cleanliness and the service life of the
equipment. I have ignored price per BTU since that is constantly in
flux.

Price is the only argument made in favor of nat. gas that has even short
term validity. All other arguments in favor of nat. gas have been based
on either myths, or comparisons of brand new gas equipment to 50yr old
oil equipment.





is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.

With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from,

Who all have to buy from the same source yielding little difference in
price.



you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages


No outage here in 35 years.

I've asked several times where Pete lives that he thinks nat gas
interruption is a big concern.

And I've mentioned several times that I'm referring to the northeast.
It's CT in particular where I lived for 36 years before moving a couple
years ago.

It obviously isn't for 95% of us who
use it. I've had nat gas service for 25+ years, that has never gone
out once. I live in central NJ, 50 miles from NYC. But I've sure had
electricity go out.

Indeed I did as well and when it did I simply started my generator and
went back about my normal business without more that a few minutes
interruption.

And it;s the nature of the two systems that's key.
An underground piped system is immune from much of what can halt
electric service. A thrunderstorm, snow storm, car hitting a pole,
all are common electric system weak points, that gas generally is
immune from.

You are ignoring the fact that it is possible and economical to provide
backup for the electricity, something that is not possible with the gas.
Additionally time to repair a damaged electric line is significantly
less than time to repair a damaged gas line in most cases. You also
don't have to spend additional time purging a repaired electric line
before returning it to service as you do with a repaired gas line.

Again, when you put this in perspective, the gas outtage
thing is another red herring.

Tell that to the folks who lived within 10 miles of me that had to spend
several days in a shelter due to a gas outage.


If oil is so much better, why do only 4% of new homes use oil heat?

1) Consumer ignorance - Believing nat. gas somehow avoids buying foreign
energy. They apparently are not aware of the LNG super tankers
delivering foreign LNG just like oil tankers delivering foreign oil.
Both nat. gas and oil are produced in the US and both are also imported
from foreign sources.

2) Marketing - Some deceptive as in the case of the short lived "safe"
in one gas suppliers advertising. Deceptive price comparisons that do
not account for service charges during periods of no use. Deceptive
claims of reliability of oil fired equipment. Deceptive claims about the
cleanliness of oil burners. Deceptive comparisons of "upgrade" costs to
low end gas equipment with service lives in single digit years.

I'll also note that that market share is rather slanted to southern
states whe

1) There are minimal heating requirements which means consumers can get
low end gas systems to last longer.

2) Gas companies cover larger service areas in large part due to lower
installation costs vs. the northern states with more rock to cut and
blast through.

3) Gas companies market more since they generate more profits from
service charges during the long hot months where they have to supply
minimal gas.

4) The southern states have been having a huge housing boom as a whole
due to lower construction costs and most tract housing gets gas systems
not because they are better in any way, but simply because the cheapest
low service life units available are in gas which means more profits for
the developers and replacement costs for the consumer a short time down
the road.




from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.

Yeah, it;s like arguing the size of an ant to the size of a mosquito.
Look at how many people actually die from a fall. It's orders of
magnitude larger. Should we get rid of bathtubs and tile floors too?

Do we have viable alternatives to bathtubs and tile floors? When there
is a viable alternative to a potentially dangerous item it is worthwhile
to consider them.

In the case of bathtubs and tile floors however there are patches
available such as non slip mats that can overcome their safety issues.
Equivalent safety patches are not available for nat. gas though CO and
explosive gas detectors do help.

Again safety is only one part of the argument against nat. gas.

Pete C.




Also if you want to be "green" you can burn biodiesel and/or waste veg.
oil in your oil furnace as well, something you can't do with a gas
furnace.


A natural gas furnace is already "green" since it isn't a petroleum product.

That isn;t true, as gas furnaces generate CO2, which is the hottest
environmental issue of the moment. But, oil generates not only that,
but also NO, sulfur emissions, etc.




Pete C.

George wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product,

Explain how big oil isn't a monopopy. They are all in lock step with
each other.

First there is no such thing as "big oil", those are big *energy*
companies that are involved in nat. gas as well. The producers all have
similar costs so logically the products they produce have similar costs.
It is not some sort of collusion.

Energy prices are also high at the moment due not only to the middle
east nonsense, but also due to the significant losses and costs
associated with rebuilding the offshore oil rigs and the refineries
severely damaged by Katrina. These are real costs that have to be
recovered.

Most people who use gas tend to use it for hot water,
cooking and clothes drying so you tend to use it year round.

I think many is more accurate, not "most". I know quite a few people who
only use gas for heating.


is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.

With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from,

Who all have to buy from the same source yielding little difference in
price.

I've found price differences of better than $0.20/gal during record cold
winters when the overall price was around $0.85/gal. I consider that to
be a significant difference. You nat. gas suppliers also have to buy
from the same source.


you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages

No outage here in 35 years.

You're lucky. I've had no oil outage in 36 years and others within about
a 10 mile radius have had to go to shelters during a multi day gas
outage in the winter.


from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.

Also if you want to be "green" you can burn biodiesel and/or waste veg.
oil in your oil furnace as well, something you can't do with a gas
furnace.


A natural gas furnace is already "green" since it isn't a petroleum product.

Good grief! You actually believe that? Nat. gas is indeed a petroleum
related product. Those gas flares you see off the side of oil rigs are
nat. gas that has been separated from the oil.

Pete C.

"Pete C." wrote:

George wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product,

Explain how big oil isn't a monopopy. They are all in lock step with
each other.

First there is no such thing as "big oil", those are big *energy*
companies that are involved in nat. gas as well. The producers all have
similar costs so logically the products they produce have similar costs.
It is not some sort of collusion.

Energy prices are also high at the moment due not only to the middle
east nonsense, but also due to the significant losses and costs
associated with rebuilding the offshore oil rigs and the refineries
severely damaged by Katrina. These are real costs that have to be
recovered.

Too bad gas service doesn't involve refineries.



Most people who use gas tend to use it for hot water,
cooking and clothes drying so you tend to use it year round.

I think many is more accurate, not "most". I know quite a few people who
only use gas for heating.


is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.

With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from,

Who all have to buy from the same source yielding little difference in
price.

I've found price differences of better than $0.20/gal during record cold
winters when the overall price was around $0.85/gal. I consider that to
be a significant difference. You nat. gas suppliers also have to buy
from the same source.


you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages

No outage here in 35 years.

You're lucky. I've had no oil outage in 36 years and others within about
a 10 mile radius have had to go to shelters during a multi day gas
outage in the winter.


from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.

Also if you want to be "green" you can burn biodiesel and/or waste veg.
oil in your oil furnace as well, something you can't do with a gas
furnace.


A natural gas furnace is already "green" since it isn't a petroleum product.

Good grief! You actually believe that?

Why do you think that so much electric production is being shifted from OIL to
GAS? Hint: Price, Cleanliness, Reliability.


Nat. gas is indeed a petroleum
related product. Those gas flares you see off the side of oil rigs are
nat. gas that has been separated from the oil.

No, that is waste gas from oil production and is not the same cleanliness that you
will find in a natural gas system plumbed to a house.

With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from, you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages
from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.

THE big problem with oil is that you require electricity to operate the oil
burners.

Thus, your oil heat is no more reliable than your electric service.

Gas can be used for ventless heaters (if legal in your area) that can keep
you quite comfortable without electric power.

But any "modern" gas furnace will also REQUIRE electric power. A "power
vent" gas water heater will also require electricity but a natural draft
heater will not. If you have public water, your water heater (believe it
or not) can provide a significant amount of heat to your house from your
kitchen and bathroom(s). It might seem silly now, but if you lose electric
for more than 24 hours and it's COLD outside, having hot water makes a real
difference in morale.

Finally, you might want to consider getting a gas cooking stove. Most
cooks prefer gas over electric for stove tops. The gas stove can also
provide emergency heat when the electric fails.

Because gas is so clear burning you might not notice any leaks which permit
combustion products into your living areas. Thus it's a good idea to get a
battery powered CO detector "just in case."