I plan to buy a house in the next 12 months. I'm looking for a modest
three bedroom brick ranch.

Most of the homes around here (Louisville KY) have natural gas heat. In
recent years, at least locally, natural gas has become much more expensive
than electric heat. So given a typical ranch with central heat and air
(and shared ductwork) I'm wondering about how much might it cost to either
get an electric furnace or perhaps a heat pump?

--
Tony Sivori

Tony Sivori writes:

I plan to buy a house in the next 12 months. I'm looking for a modest
three bedroom brick ranch.

Most of the homes around here (Louisville KY) have natural gas heat. In
recent years, at least locally, natural gas has become much more expensive
than electric heat.

First, are you sure about that? Electric is shown in these 2005
numbers over 2x as expensive as even a lame 80% efficient gas furnace.
Numbers based on 6.2cents/kW-h and $0.7414 per therm of natural gas
with 750 therms usage with an traditional 80% furnace. What are you
paying for gas and electric in your area?
http://www.mudomaha.com/naturalgas/p...s.electric.pdf

Last winter, I paid what appears to be $1.28/therm (total) for gas,
and $0.12/kW-h for electricity in the Chicago area.

You may want to look instead at wood pellet stoves, geothermal
systems, and heat pumps vs pure electric furnaces. Gievn that you're
not THAT cold in the winter in Louisville, heat pump may be a good
alternative for you. The things to keep in mind though is that if
natural gas prices fall back down, your calculations will be
differnt. You may be better off in the future with a 96% efficient
gas furnace, for instance.

The switch however should be relative straightforward. It's just the
furnace you need to swap out. You will probably need an additional
220 line run from your breaker box, or perhaps an upgraded breaker box
installed.

--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

Todd H. wrote:

Tony Sivori writes:

I plan to buy a house in the next 12 months. I'm looking for a modest
three bedroom brick ranch.

Most of the homes around here (Louisville KY) have natural gas heat. In
recent years, at least locally, natural gas has become much more
expensive than electric heat.

First, are you sure about that? Electric is shown in these 2005 numbers
over 2x as expensive as even a lame 80% efficient gas furnace. Numbers
based on 6.2cents/kW-h and $0.7414 per therm of natural gas with 750
therms usage with an traditional 80% furnace. What are you paying for
gas and electric in your area?
http://www.mudomaha.com/naturalgas/p...s.electric.pdf

Those who heat with gas in Louisville saw a 140% increase in heating bills
last year, and the year before was a lot higher than the year previous to
that. Combined with the low kilowatt rate in Louisville (this month I paid
$30.29 for 419 KW) gas is no longer cheaper than electric in my location.


Since I'm currently on all electric, my bill doesn't mention the gas rate.
I tried to search for local new articles, but the local paper has become
like the New York Times - they want to sell access to older news items.
But here are a few excerpts from the Louisville news paper:

March 16, 2006 462 words ID: lou27645540
Funding drained a month early. By Wayne Tompkins.
. The Courier-Journal. A program that helps
low-income Kentuckians pay their heating bills has run out of money a
month early because of record demand and soaring energy costs.

February 7, 2006 702 words ID: lou26119166
Thermostats set lower to cut costs. By Chris Kenning.
. bThe Courier-Journal. Slammed with high
heating bills, St. Leonard Elementary on Zorn Avenue has turned down the
heat and asked students to wear extra clothing to keep warm..

January 27, 2006 883 words ID: lou2006012713148696
Mark David Goss, Teresa Hill and Greg Coker Special to The
Courier-Journal. Kentuckians who heat their homes and businesses with
natural gas already are aware that it is costing more to stay warm this
winter.. Now many are asking why and how natural gas became so expensive,
and what role the Kentucky Public Service Commission (PSC) plays in
regulating gas costs..

January 8, 2006 1013 words ID: lou2006010913226178
Efficiency saves cash for some customers, alone or in hybrid 'dual-fuel'
systems Bill Wolfe. . The Courier-Journal. Heat
pumps, once scorned as an uncomfortable alternative to natural gas
furnaces, are getting a lot more attention with this winter's record-high
gas bills..

Last winter, I paid what appears to be $1.28/therm (total) for gas, and
$0.12/kW-h for electricity in the Chicago area.

If I did the math right, I'm paying .07/kW.

You may want to look instead at wood pellet stoves, geothermal systems,
and heat pumps vs pure electric furnaces. Gievn that you're not THAT
cold in the winter in Louisville, heat pump may be a good alternative
for you. The things to keep in mind though is that if natural gas
prices fall back down, your calculations will be differnt. You may be
better off in the future with a 96% efficient gas furnace, for instance.

The switch however should be relative straightforward. It's just the
furnace you need to swap out. You will probably need an additional 220
line run from your breaker box, or perhaps an upgraded breaker box
installed.

So might we be talking about between two and four thousand dollars?

--
Tony Sivori

On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:33:54 -0400, someone wrote:


But here are a few excerpts from the Louisville news paper:

Dude, NONE of your excerpts actual say what the ACTUAL cost of heating
with gas vs. electric is. All they are saying is that "gas went up".
How much? In market based systems, gas and electricity costs are
relaqted since to some degree btus (as used to generat electricity)
are fungible and when the cost of gas goes up so does the cost of
competing fuels.

But yes if you have some artificial government controlled arrangement
where your city gets preferential access to low marginal cost
hydroelectric power, then electric rates could be artificially low in
a particular area.


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.

v wrote:

Tony Sivori wrote:

But here are a few excerpts from the Louisville news paper:

Dude, NONE of your excerpts actual say what the ACTUAL cost of heating
with gas vs. electric is.

I don't have a cost per cubic foot. But believe me, the last two years,
gas heat was much more expensive than electric heat here.

All they are saying is that "gas went up".
How much?

Last year, 140% higher than the year before.

But yes if you have some artificial government controlled arrangement
where your city gets preferential access to low marginal cost
hydroelectric power, then electric rates could be artificially low in a
particular area.

I don't care too much about the why of it, I just care about having a
reasonable heating bill.

--
Tony Sivori

Tony Sivori wrote:

I don't have a cost per cubic foot. But believe me, the last two years,
gas heat was much more expensive than electric heat here.

Dude, unless you are getting subsidized electricity from someone or are buying
at industrial rates, there is no way the electricity is cheaper than gas or fuel
oil on an equivalent BTU basis.

Why don't you grab your last electric bill and share the per kilowatt charges?

Clark W. Griswold, Jr. wrote:
Tony Sivori wrote:

I don't have a cost per cubic foot. But believe me, the last two years,
gas heat was much more expensive than electric heat here.

Dude, unless you are getting subsidized electricity from someone or are buying
at industrial rates, there is no way the electricity is cheaper than gas or fuel
oil on an equivalent BTU basis.

Never heard of a ground source heat pump? In that case electricity is
cheaper per BTU than gas in most areas of the country.

wrote:

Never heard of a ground source heat pump?

Yep. Relatives own one and I've troubleshot it.

In that case electricity is
cheaper per BTU than gas in most areas of the country.

Right. And as an absolute number or percentage basis, how many residential
ground source heat pumps do you suppose exist?

trader4 wrote:

You should care about the why of it. I would want to know for sure
where my electric is coming from and what factors affect the price today
and what factors may affect the price in the future. If it's coming
from hydro electric then it's a lot more secure than if it;s coming from
say nuclear, with a license about to expire and the environmentalists
and state govt trying to close it, forcing a switch to more expensive
alternatives.

The electric plants around my area are coal fired.


The best choice in your case sounds like it would be a heat pump system,
either air or geothermal based.

No way geothermal is practical here. In fact, one of the big buildings
downtown (the Humana corporate headquarters, if memory serves) uses
geothermal cooling. They pump up cool aquifer water, and use it the same
as chilled water air conditioning from a traditional cooling tower. Then
the warm water goes back to the aquifer.

A heat pump is usable here, but they need a back up resistance heating
elements.

That minimizes your use of electric compared to a pure resistance
system, but still uses it as the main energy source.

Which brings me to my original question. What might it cost to remove a
gas furnace and replace it with electric heat?

--
Tony Sivori

Tony Sivori wrote:
trader4 wrote:
The best choice in your case sounds like it would be a heat pump system,
either air or geothermal based.

No way geothermal is practical here. In fact, one of the big buildings
downtown (the Humana corporate headquarters, if memory serves) uses
geothermal cooling. They pump up cool aquifer water, and use it the same
as chilled water air conditioning from a traditional cooling tower. Then
the warm water goes back to the aquifer.

Geothermal "heat pump system". In the middle of winter you can use 20 degree
air as a heat source to warm the cooling coils or you can use 40 degree water.
The water is 20 degrees warmer to start with and a much better thermal conductor.
Which do you think is more efficient?

Tony Sivori wrote:

Already posted further up the thread. But I was wrong anyway, $5 of the
bill was a "customer charge"; apparently that is what they charge me for
the privilege of getting a bill each month. So I actually paid $25.29 for
419 kwh, which works out to 6 cents per kwh.

OK... I suspect that right now you only use electricity for lighting and
possibly some cooking as that is a very low eate. Many utilities step their
residential rates, bumping it up to .07 or .08 per kwh when you exceed a certain
amount.

Even still, at your rate, resistance heating cost about 60% more than natural
gas. Air source heat pump would be 20% more (if your climate allows). Ground
source heat pumps might save you on operating costs, but will cost a significant
amount more to install.

You can run the numbers he
http://www.warmair.net/html/fuel_cost_comparisons.htm

In article ,
says...
Clark W. Griswold, Jr. wrote:

Tony Sivori wrote:

I don't have a cost per cubic foot. But believe me, the last two years,
gas heat was much more expensive than electric heat here.

Dude, unless you are getting subsidized electricity from someone or are
buying at industrial rates, there is no way the electricity is cheaper
than gas or fuel oil on an equivalent BTU basis.

Why don't you grab your last electric bill and share the per kilowatt
charges?

Already posted further up the thread. But I was wrong anyway, $5 of the
bill was a "customer charge"; apparently that is what they charge me for
the privilege of getting a bill each month. So I actually paid $25.29 for
419 kwh, which works out to 6 cents per kwh.

Oh, wow! Cheap housing, low taxes, warmer climate, *AND* cheap
electricity?! We'll be down this weekend to check it out
(really!). ;-)

--
Keith

Keith Williams wrote:

In article ,
says...
Already posted further up the thread. But I was wrong anyway, $5 of the
bill was a "customer charge"; apparently that is what they charge me
for the privilege of getting a bill each month. So I actually paid
$25.29 for 419 kwh, which works out to 6 cents per kwh.

Oh, wow! Cheap housing, low taxes, warmer climate, *AND* cheap
electricity?! We'll be down this weekend to check it out (really!).
;-)

The houses are cheap because no one in their right mind would want to live
here. :-)

--
Tony Sivori

Clark W. Griswold, Jr. wrote:

Tony Sivori wrote:

Already posted further up the thread. But I was wrong anyway, $5 of the
bill was a "customer charge"; apparently that is what they charge me for
the privilege of getting a bill each month. So I actually paid $25.29
for 419 kwh, which works out to 6 cents per kwh.

OK... I suspect that right now you only use electricity for lighting and
possibly some cooking as that is a very low eate.

No, I run a central conditioner when needed (first floor apartment so it
doesn't need to run every day), I run a washer and drier each week, take a
hot shower every day, plus the lights, cooking, computer and miscellaneous.

Many utilities step
their residential rates, bumping it up to .07 or .08 per kwh when you
exceed a certain amount.

Not here.

Even still, at your rate, resistance heating cost about 60% more than
natural gas. Air source heat pump would be 20% more (if your climate
allows). Ground source heat pumps might save you on operating costs, but
will cost a significant amount more to install.

You can run the numbers he
http://www.warmair.net/html/fuel_cost_comparisons.htm

Trust me buddy, it didn't used to be this way, but now natural gas is more
expensive than electricity in Louisville Kentucky.

--
Tony Sivori

someone wrote:

Geothermal "heat pump system". In the middle of winter you can use 20
degree air as a heat source to warm the cooling coils or you can use 40
degree water. The water is 20 degrees warmer to start with and a much
better thermal conductor. Which do you think is more efficient?

That is a new one on me, I'd never heard of using cool water for heat. As
for which is more efficient, I wouldn't know. The efficiency of getting 75
degree warm air out out 40 degree water, after paying to pump the water to
the surface is not an intuitively obvious question to me.

--
Tony Sivori

In article ,
says...
Keith Williams wrote:

In article ,
says...
Already posted further up the thread. But I was wrong anyway, $5 of the
bill was a "customer charge"; apparently that is what they charge me
for the privilege of getting a bill each month. So I actually paid
$25.29 for 419 kwh, which works out to 6 cents per kwh.

Oh, wow! Cheap housing, low taxes, warmer climate, *AND* cheap
electricity?! We'll be down this weekend to check it out (really!).
;-)

The houses are cheap because no one in their right mind would want to live
here. :-)

Maybe we can trade. You can pay the taxes, I'm tired of it.
Seriously, we are going through there (Lexington, Frankfort,
Louisville) this weekend. We're looking to retire somewhere
cheaper. I should be able to get some work (I assume the Internet
has made it that far .

--
Keith

Keith Williams wrote:

In article ,
says...
The houses are cheap because no one in their right mind would want to
live here. :-)

Maybe we can trade. You can pay the taxes, I'm tired of it. Seriously,
we are going through there (Lexington, Frankfort, Louisville) this
weekend. We're looking to retire somewhere cheaper. I should be able to
get some work (I assume the Internet has made it that far .

The lease on my apartment for the deed to your house? I reluctantly accept
your offer. =-)

Seriously, Louisville has advantages and disadvantages. You might like it
here. Houses are very reasonable compared to most other locations.
Property tax is nine tenths of one percent, unless you are within a small
city within the county where it may be higher.

You can browse the multiple listing service he
http://www.homes-louisville.com/

The site has a fairly good advanced search.

You have to "register", but all you need is a throwaway name and email
address. The site seems to set a cookie, no password is involved. But he
will email the address you supply with offers of his service (it is a real
estate agent's site).

Sales tax is 6 %, and there is a city tax on wages that is about half as
much as the State takes, it is $2.14 per hundred earned.

Traffic tends to flow fairly well. If you like basketball, you'll have
lots of company. If you like horses, we have the Derby. Casinos are right
across the river, if you like that kind of thing.

Jobs are available, but if it will be one you like for wages you like is
less certain.

For the bad:

Kentucky leads the nation or is near the top in obesity, smoking, lung
cancer, and heart disease.

The weather can be unpleasant. Winters are very cold, sometimes sub zero.
Often subzero, when you factor in the wind chill. We do get less snow than
many nearby areas.

Summers can be very hot, August is often beastly. High humidity in the
upper 90's, and air inversions with ozone alerts.

I've heard that only Florida has more thunderstorm days per year than
Kentucky. The thunderstorms are sometimes severe, knocking down tree
limbs, whole trees and power lines. You can also count on a few tornadoes
being spotted in the city each year. Fortunately, most do little damage.

--
Tony Sivori

In article ,
says...
Keith Williams wrote:

In article ,
says...
The houses are cheap because no one in their right mind would want to
live here. :-)

Maybe we can trade. You can pay the taxes, I'm tired of it. Seriously,
we are going through there (Lexington, Frankfort, Louisville) this
weekend. We're looking to retire somewhere cheaper. I should be able to
get some work (I assume the Internet has made it that far .

The lease on my apartment for the deed to your house? I reluctantly accept
your offer. =-)

You wouldn't like the taxes, cold, taxes, electricity rates. Oh,
did I mention taxes? ;-)

Seriously, Louisville has advantages and disadvantages. You might like it
here. Houses are very reasonable compared to most other locations.
Property tax is nine tenths of one percent, unless you are within a small
city within the county where it may be higher.

That's a little less than I figured. We're a little over 3%. Plus
income tax equal to 1/4 of the federal tax due, plus 5% sales tax
(6% in some towns) and 9% or 10% on meals.

You can browse the multiple listing service he
http://www.homes-louisville.com/

We've gone through realtor.com to look.

The site has a fairly good advanced search.

You have to "register", but all you need is a throwaway name and email
address. The site seems to set a cookie, no password is involved. But he
will email the address you supply with offers of his service (it is a real
estate agent's site).

Sales tax is 6 %, and there is a city tax on wages that is about half as
much as the State takes, it is $2.14 per hundred earned.

Other than the sales tax (normal) that's pretty low. I also noted
in the tax law there is an exemption for pensions. :-)

Traffic tends to flow fairly well. If you like basketball, you'll have
lots of company. If you like horses, we have the Derby. Casinos are right
across the river, if you like that kind of thing.

College BB is alright (I went to U of Illinois). Horses are ok,
but I plan on being *far* from CD on derby day.

Jobs are available, but if it will be one you like for wages you like is
less certain.

Internet. I'm an engineer and am thinking about doing a little
consulting, or maybe step up to my dream job of greeter at
WallyWorld. ;-)

For the bad:

Kentucky leads the nation or is near the top in obesity, smoking, lung
cancer, and heart disease.

Ok.

The weather can be unpleasant. Winters are very cold, sometimes sub zero.
Often subzero, when you factor in the wind chill. We do get less snow than
many nearby areas.

Rubbish! That's warm. ;-) We currently live in Vermont, the four
season state; cold, winter, colder, and mud.

Q: Do you know what Vermonters do in the summer?
A: If it falls on Sunday, they have a picnic.


Summers can be very hot, August is often beastly. High humidity in the
upper 90's, and air inversions with ozone alerts.

I grew up in the middle of Illinois. I don't much like heat, but
six months of winter isn't much fun either.

I've heard that only Florida has more thunderstorm days per year than
Kentucky. The thunderstorms are sometimes severe, knocking down tree
limbs, whole trees and power lines. You can also count on a few tornadoes
being spotted in the city each year. Fortunately, most do little damage.

Like I said, we grew up in Texas and Illinois. A little "weather"
doesn't much scare us. ;-)

Anyway, Kentucky or southern IN are sort of a compromise of cost,
location, and weather. Illinois and Ohio are too pricey. I hate
Florida and the gulf is pretty much out. TN is a bit too far
south. The north is too cold, though some places are cheap. My
family is in the midwest, mostly, so Kentucky is an idea we're
going to explore.

--
Keith