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Posted to alt.electronics,sci.electronics.design
Shawn Wilson
 
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Default where can I go for prototyping?

I have an idea for a new device, basically a new wireless access point, and
need someone to make it for me.

I have taken an existing access point and modified it to my idea, but
obviously a new design must be made since my current prototype is made from
a currently pattented device.

I'm not an electronic engineer, I only know enough to do the modifications
that I've done.

What I need done is a new circuit board designed, firmware written, and
enclosure made.

All I have is the idea and a working prototype made from someone elses
product. Any help on where to go next would be appreciated.

I've been googling all afternoon and I can't find any solid leads.

Thanks in advance.

--
Shawn Wilson


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Joerg
 
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Default where can I go for prototyping?

Hello Shawn,

I have taken an existing access point and modified it to my idea, but
obviously a new design must be made since my current prototype is made from
a currently pattented device.


The last part could potentially get you into trouble, in the form of a
nasty and drawn-out legal dog fight.


I'm not an electronic engineer, I only know enough to do the modifications
that I've done.


That's ok, most of my clients are not EEs and I bet the same goes for
other consultants. You have to find someone whom you can trust. This
news groups was the right place to ask.


What I need done is a new circuit board designed, firmware written, and
enclosure made.


That kind of rules me out, there are people here who are better in
writing firmware. If you think firmware is the lion's share of the work
then also post in 'comp.arch.embedded'. That where the uC and DSP guys
hang out.


All I have is the idea and a working prototype made from someone elses
product. Any help on where to go next would be appreciated.

I've been googling all afternoon and I can't find any solid leads.


Maybe the keywords weren't optimal. I'd start with a combination of
'consulting, electronics, product design, prototyping, consumer'.

Since you probably aren't part of a large corporation be prepared to pay
a hefty up-front retainer before getting someone to put lots of hours
into it. Just as you usually would have to at a lawyer's office.

If this is cost critical prepare yourself to go offshore with
production. Else you may not be able to make any profit. I just priced
out a new design and as usual tried to give domestic sources a first
shot. That tooth was pulled when I was quoted a whopping 20 cents per
hole (!) for CNC drilling for the pilot run. And this was regular thin
plastics, nothing fancy. The molded parts were kind of ok in pricing but
they really nail you with any extras.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
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Tom
 
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Default where can I go for prototyping?

What I need done is a new circuit board designed, firmware written, and
enclosure made.


Once you get a board designed, you can get them built he

http://www.tinymicros.com/embedded/pcbs.html
Summarizes the links below. The guy has used some of the places.

http://www.4pcb.com/index.htm
https://www.barebonespcb.com/!BB1.asp
http://www.pcfabexpress.com/contents/complete57.php
http://www.olimex.com/pcb/index.html
http://www.apcircuits.com/
http://www.expresspcb.com/
http://www.pcbexpress.com/
http://www.protoexpress.com/
http://www.1pcb.com/
http://home.flash.net/~yogii/

I do embedded software so I can help with the firmware once you're
at that point.

Sincerely,
Tom.
http://www.TomEberhard.com
http://www.kamoyatic.com

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Donald
 
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Default where can I go for prototyping?

Shawn Wilson wrote:
I have an idea for a new device, basically a new wireless access point, and
need someone to make it for me.

I have taken an existing access point and modified it to my idea, but
obviously a new design must be made since my current prototype is made from
a currently pattented device.

I'm not an electronic engineer, I only know enough to do the modifications
that I've done.

What I need done is a new circuit board designed, firmware written, and
enclosure made.

All I have is the idea and a working prototype made from someone elses
product. Any help on where to go next would be appreciated.

I've been googling all afternoon and I can't find any solid leads.

Thanks in advance.

--
Shawn Wilson




Shawn,

If you have a patentable device, you should talk to a patent lawyer first.

Get started in the documentation first thing. As mentioned, you want to
be sure you won't get sued because you got to carried away with the
construction.

Time is on your side right now. Make sure you are protected, or you will
be wasting money for nothing.

donald

PS: If you have an original idea and its patentable, you will be able to
get someone else to build it for you. (after the patent)

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Walter Harley
 
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Default where can I go for prototyping?

"Donald" wrote in message
...
[...] Shawn,

If you have a patentable device, you should talk to a patent lawyer first.

Get started in the documentation first thing. As mentioned, you want to be
sure you won't get sued because you got to carried away with the
construction.

Time is on your side right now. Make sure you are protected, or you will
be wasting money for nothing.

donald

PS: If you have an original idea and its patentable, you will be able to
get someone else to build it for you. (after the patent)



You might want to have a look at http://www.tinaja.com/patnt01.asp, Don
Lancaster's web site devoted to patent issues, before you go too far down
that road.

Quoting from that site: "For most individuals and small scale startups,
patents are virtually certain to result in a net loss of time, energy,
money, and sanity. [...] the economic breakeven needed to recover patent
costs is something between $12,000,000.00 and $40,000,000 in gross sales."





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John Fields
 
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Default where can I go for prototyping?

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:56:38 -0800, "Walter Harley"
wrote:

"Donald" wrote in message
...
[...] Shawn,

If you have a patentable device, you should talk to a patent lawyer first.

Get started in the documentation first thing. As mentioned, you want to be
sure you won't get sued because you got to carried away with the
construction.

Time is on your side right now. Make sure you are protected, or you will
be wasting money for nothing.

donald

PS: If you have an original idea and its patentable, you will be able to
get someone else to build it for you. (after the patent)



You might want to have a look at http://www.tinaja.com/patnt01.asp, Don
Lancaster's web site devoted to patent issues, before you go too far down
that road.

Quoting from that site: "For most individuals and small scale startups,
patents are virtually certain to result in a net loss of time, energy,
money, and sanity. [...] the economic breakeven needed to recover patent
costs is something between $12,000,000.00 and $40,000,000 in gross sales."


---
What a crock of ****.

If the total cost of acquiring a patent is $10,000 and getting the
product to market costs a million dollars, the cost of the patent
will only be 1% of the total up-front costs.

That means that for the cost of the patent to be covered in the
first year, sales must be equal to...

The calculation is left to the interested..,

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer
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Shawn Wilson
 
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Default where can I go for prototyping?

Thank you all for your input. I don't plan on staying with the stolen stuff
I'm working with now, it's just a proof of concept. I've sent emails to the
people who own the proper patents for the device I've modified but have
gotten no response. I was vague, but hoped to get a response of some kind.

My best bet at this point is to simply finish my proof of concept, document
it fully, and patent it fully. Then I can openly try to sell the idea to
those who already are tooled and making products like it.

Don't mistake my comment about products like it to mean it's not unique...
it's just that a few key changes to some existing tech make for a huge
benefit and a brand new device that doesn't replace the old stuff, but will
be added along side.

Don't worry, I didn't take 'Walter Harley' serious...

I haven't read the article he mentioned yet, but here's an interesting
thought... his low number was 12M in gross sales... ooooo scary number...
No, actually that's not much actually in the grand scheme of things.

Think about it. Take your average $50 electronic device, surely the patent
owner is making at least 5 bucks on it per unit... that can't be so much of
a stretch, right?

To make the 12M gross sales, you need to sell 240,000 units. If you get a
product into a nationwide chain like Wal-Mart or Staples or Office Max or
Fry's etc... then you've got 50 states selling your product. You only need
4800 sales per state to make your 12M mark.

If you further break that down to only 10 stores in each state (not
different stores, but physical locations) - then you get to 480 sales per
store per state. You end up with 40 sales per month in a year. That's
really not that scary, and is actually quite tiny compared to most anything
on the shelf right now.

Yes, the big assumption is being picked up by one of those chains... but if
you actually did get picked up by one of them you'd have hundreds of stores
in each state selling your product. Surely you could expect at least 3
sales a week from each store for the first year... and beyond.

3 sales a week at each of 100 stores in each state for a year... hmmm...
That's 780,000 sales in a year grossing me 3.9M. Is that worth the 10 grand
for a patent? I'll have to sleep on it.

Not to mention that more than likely the real result will be the sale of the
patent for a couple million... that's more than enough for me on this one.
I'm not greedy, and I don't need to support a huge company. I have a good
idea and want to see it on the shelf. If I make my first million because of
it, that's just icing.

....he who dies with the most toys, still dies...

--
Shawn Wilson



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Default where can I go for prototyping?


Shawn Wilson wrote:
Thank you all for your input. I don't plan on staying with the stolen stuff
I'm working with now, it's just a proof of concept. I've sent emails to the
people who own the proper patents for the device I've modified but have
gotten no response. I was vague, but hoped to get a response of some kind.

My best bet at this point is to simply finish my proof of concept, document
it fully, and patent it fully. Then I can openly try to sell the idea to
those who already are tooled and making products like it.

Don't mistake my comment about products like it to mean it's not unique...
it's just that a few key changes to some existing tech make for a huge
benefit and a brand new device that doesn't replace the old stuff, but will
be added along side.

Don't worry, I didn't take 'Walter Harley' serious...

I haven't read the article he mentioned yet, but here's an interesting
thought... his low number was 12M in gross sales... ooooo scary number...
No, actually that's not much actually in the grand scheme of things.

Think about it. Take your average $50 electronic device, surely the patent
owner is making at least 5 bucks on it per unit... that can't be so much of
a stretch, right?

To make the 12M gross sales, you need to sell 240,000 units. If you get a
product into a nationwide chain like Wal-Mart or Staples or Office Max or
Fry's etc... then you've got 50 states selling your product. You only need
4800 sales per state to make your 12M mark.

If you further break that down to only 10 stores in each state (not
different stores, but physical locations) - then you get to 480 sales per
store per state. You end up with 40 sales per month in a year. That's
really not that scary, and is actually quite tiny compared to most anything
on the shelf right now.

Yes, the big assumption is being picked up by one of those chains... but if
you actually did get picked up by one of them you'd have hundreds of stores
in each state selling your product. Surely you could expect at least 3
sales a week from each store for the first year... and beyond.

3 sales a week at each of 100 stores in each state for a year... hmmm...
That's 780,000 sales in a year grossing me 3.9M. Is that worth the 10 grand
for a patent? I'll have to sleep on it.

Not to mention that more than likely the real result will be the sale of the
patent for a couple million... that's more than enough for me on this one.
I'm not greedy, and I don't need to support a huge company. I have a good
idea and want to see it on the shelf. If I make my first million because of
it, that's just icing.

...he who dies with the most toys, still dies...

--
Shawn Wilson





Go to www.uspto.gov and do a search.
You can find out what is out there (at least in terms of patents).
New patents are posted every Tuesday.


Walter Harley's post about patents (Don Lancaster notes) is correct
but...
If you handle right, realize your limitations, you can do all right.
I have worked both sides of the issues
- for the company
- for the inventor
- for the aggrieved party
- for the defending party


Good luck,
Dave

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Joerg
 
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Default where can I go for prototyping?

Hello Shawn,

My best bet at this point is to simply finish my proof of concept, document
it fully, and patent it fully. Then I can openly try to sell the idea to
those who already are tooled and making products like it.


Be diligent with prior art research. That can take months but if you
don't do it you might have your patent shot down. And if you don't have
enough protective language in the contract with the entity you sold it
to you could be sued by them. They may then want back their million
bucks for product launch. Plus damages, plus, plus, plus.


Think about it. Take your average $50 electronic device, surely the patent
owner is making at least 5 bucks on it per unit... that can't be so much of
a stretch, right?



A lil' dose of reality he The gadget that sells for $49 at Best Buy
(minus whatever mail-in promotion) is more likely produced in China for
$5. I don't think the patent owner will see $5 of that ;-)


To make the 12M gross sales, you need to sell 240,000 units. If you get a
product into a nationwide chain like Wal-Mart or Staples or Office Max or
Fry's etc... then you've got 50 states selling your product. You only need
4800 sales per state to make your 12M mark.


Umm ..., maybe you should start smaller.


Not to mention that more than likely the real result will be the sale of the
patent for a couple million... that's more than enough for me on this one.



Good luck ... and read the first response paragraph once more.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
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Default where can I go for prototyping?


Shawn Wilson wrote:
Think about it. Take your average $50 electronic device, surely the patent
owner is making at least 5 bucks on it per unit... that can't be so much of


The patent owners are likely making a few pennies on a retail $50 unit
except in some rare circumstances.

Yes, the big assumption is being picked up by one of those chains... but if
you actually did get picked up by one of them you'd have hundreds of stores


You don't get "picked up" by one of these stores, you use a channel
professional to introduce you to that chain's buyers. The chain will
then negotiate your margin down and give you an exceedingly onerous
contract involving very high costs to you in the form of co-op
advertising fees. They will likely require one or two free units per
store for floor demos. There will be money flowing back to them at
every step of the game.

Don't try to start with a big chain like this. You can sell $250K of
merchandise through a chain like this, not receive a single dime from
them, and still owe them $100K.



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Shawn Wilson
 
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Default where can I go for prototyping?

Well all my numbers there were obviously fake just to run through a mental
excersize... I do realize that it's not a rosy picture once it's actually in
the real world...

That's why the last part is probably what I'll end up doing for my first
try. I'll get my patent in order first (with plenty of legal help) and then
look to sell it to Linksys or D-Link or Belkin since they already have the
distribution part down.

Once again, thanks for the input.

--
Shawn Wilson


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Walter Harley
 
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Default where can I go for prototyping?

"John Fields" wrote in message
...
[...]
The calculation is left to the interested..,


Don Lancaster being one of the interested. The calculations are in the
article. I'm reasonably confident in Don's ability to calculate.

He's not saying "patents are bogus". He's saying that for startups and solo
inventors, patents are usually the wrong approach.


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John Fields
 
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Default where can I go for prototyping?

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:44:10 -0800, "Walter Harley"
wrote:

"John Fields" wrote in message
.. .
[...]
The calculation is left to the interested..,


Don Lancaster being one of the interested. The calculations are in the
article. I'm reasonably confident in Don's ability to calculate.

He's not saying "patents are bogus". He's saying that for startups and solo
inventors, patents are usually the wrong approach.


---
IME, a startup looking for venture capital funding won't get it
without at least a patent applied for.

OTOH, a solo inventor without the means to prosecute the patent may
very well decide that it's more important to get the widget to
market than to protect it.

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer
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Jasen Betts
 
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Default where can I go for prototyping?

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.electronics.]
On 2005-11-22, Shawn Wilson wrote:

Thank you all for your input. I don't plan on staying with the stolen stuff
I'm working with now, it's just a proof of concept. I've sent emails to the
people who own the proper patents for the device I've modified but have
gotten no response. I was vague, but hoped to get a response of some kind.

My best bet at this point is to simply finish my proof of concept, document
it fully, and patent it fully. Then I can openly try to sell the idea to
those who already are tooled and making products like it.

Don't mistake my comment about products like it to mean it's not unique...
it's just that a few key changes to some existing tech make for a huge
benefit and a brand new device that doesn't replace the old stuff, but will
be added along side.


I once spoke with a man whose uncle modified a craburettor for smoother
running (changed the shape of a cam I think) he sold the design back to
Ford (or was it gm?) for a 10c cut on every carburettor made using his design
hed did well, and I doubt the increased sales that would result hurt Ford
either.

Bye.
Jasen
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