Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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  #1   Report Post  
Chris F.
 
Posts: n/a
Default What a Scam!

I was aware that manufacturers charged high prices for replacement parts,
but I wasn't aware of just bad the problem was until recently. I was looking
for a replacement DVD laser pickup for Hitachi (see my earlier post) and
finally located one from a Hitachi parts distributor. The price? $205 Cdn. I
can't believe anyone would have the nerve to charge such ridiculous prices
for a replacement part, especially when an entire new unit can be purchased
for much less! Obviously, plain old greed is the motivation for this scam,
but I have to wonder about a couple of other things....
1. How do the mfrs actually make this kind of money from replacment parts?
They must be making it somehow, or they wouldn't bother to jack the prices
up so high.
2. Could enough techs band together to force some kind of legislation,
limiting the prices of replacement parts? (not likely, but I thought this
could make for some interesting discussion)
One thing about working in this industry; you certainly get to see the
greedy, money-loving side of society. Be it while buying replacement parts,
trying to make a sale, or just giving an estimate to a customer. Anyone
still working in the repair industry today is probably there for one of two
reasons; they enjoy the work, or they don't have any other options available
(both apply to me). Money obviously isn't the motivitation!
Just another $.02 of mine.


  #2   Report Post  
Anthony Fremont
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Chris F." wrote in message
...
I was aware that manufacturers charged high prices for replacement

parts,
but I wasn't aware of just bad the problem was until recently. I was

looking
for a replacement DVD laser pickup for Hitachi (see my earlier post)

and
finally located one from a Hitachi parts distributor. The price? $205

Cdn. I
can't believe anyone would have the nerve to charge such ridiculous

prices
for a replacement part, especially when an entire new unit can be

purchased
for much less! Obviously, plain old greed is the motivation for this

scam,
but I have to wonder about a couple of other things....
1. How do the mfrs actually make this kind of money from replacment

parts?
They must be making it somehow, or they wouldn't bother to jack the

prices
up so high.


Maybe by claiming that the parts have an extreme value, they can
leverage warranty work by being able to write off these high part prices
as business losses on their taxes.

2. Could enough techs band together to force some kind of

legislation,
limiting the prices of replacement parts? (not likely, but I thought

this
could make for some interesting discussion)


Seams that the sum of all individual parts prices should never exceed
the price of a complete item. IOW, I should be able to buy all the
individual pieces of a complete car engine from GM for less than a new
crate motor costs. All the individual pieces of a car should cost less
than a built car, shouldn't they? It seems to me like the makings of a
reasonable fair trade law that could end this abuse of the customer.

Auto manufacturers have gotten ridiculous with this stuff. I had to buy
some steel pickup tubes for a Camaro fuel tank. All because the fuel
level sending unit was welded to the tubes and couldn't be purchased as
a seperate part. It only cost $600.00 for a few feet of cleverly built
soft steel tubing and a sending unit. After looking at the quality of
the sending unit, I'm afraid to think that it actually has electricity
flowing thru it.

One thing about working in this industry; you certainly get to see

the
greedy, money-loving side of society. Be it while buying replacement

parts,
trying to make a sale, or just giving an estimate to a customer.

Anyone
still working in the repair industry today is probably there for one

of two
reasons; they enjoy the work, or they don't have any other options

available
(both apply to me). Money obviously isn't the motivitation!
Just another $.02 of mine.



  #3   Report Post  
NSM
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Chris F." wrote in message
...
I was aware that manufacturers charged high prices for replacement

parts,
but I wasn't aware of just bad the problem was until recently. I was

looking
for a replacement DVD laser pickup for Hitachi (see my earlier post) and
finally located one from a Hitachi parts distributor. The price? $205 Cdn.

I
can't believe anyone would have the nerve to charge such ridiculous prices
for a replacement part


Price a plastic radiator fan for an auto (no motor). Molded price ex
factory? Less than $1. Your price? $50+

N


  #4   Report Post  
Wayne McDermott
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Many years ago I was doing some work for a copper mine in Chile that
involved (among other things) a review of all 35,000 spare parts held to
identify duplications, upgrade descriptions and part numbers etc. I came
across a "battery charger repair kit" for a common peice of earth moving
equipment. When looking at the kit I noticed that some of the items in
the were also held as discrete spares. A little investigation showed
that, in fact, all of the kitted items were also stocked individually. I
cannot remember why, but I located all the pricing for the individual
parts and compared it to the kit and found that my client was being
charged USD$483 for the plastic bag, ie the kit was $483 more than the
sum of the individual prices.

Wayne McDermott
  #5   Report Post  
NSM
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Wayne McDermott" wrote in message
news
Many years ago I was doing some work for a copper mine in Chile that
involved (among other things) a review of all 35,000 spare parts held to
identify duplications, upgrade descriptions and part numbers etc. I came
across a "battery charger repair kit" for a common peice of earth moving
equipment. When looking at the kit I noticed that some of the items in
the were also held as discrete spares. A little investigation showed
that, in fact, all of the kitted items were also stocked individually. I
cannot remember why, but I located all the pricing for the individual
parts and compared it to the kit and found that my client was being
charged USD$483 for the plastic bag, ie the kit was $483 more than the
sum of the individual prices.

Wayne McDermott


Don't forget they had to pay the monkey that put the parts in the bag!

N




  #6   Report Post  
James Sweet
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Chris F." wrote in message
...
I was aware that manufacturers charged high prices for replacement

parts,
but I wasn't aware of just bad the problem was until recently. I was

looking
for a replacement DVD laser pickup for Hitachi (see my earlier post) and
finally located one from a Hitachi parts distributor. The price? $205 Cdn.

I
can't believe anyone would have the nerve to charge such ridiculous prices
for a replacement part, especially when an entire new unit can be

purchased
for much less! Obviously, plain old greed is the motivation for this scam,
but I have to wonder about a couple of other things....


They price it so high so that nobody buys them and they don't have to deal
with having authorized shops stock them. You can get the part if you
*really* need it, but there's no demand so people just buy new units,
exactly as planned.


  #7   Report Post  
James Sweet
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Seams that the sum of all individual parts prices should never exceed
the price of a complete item. IOW, I should be able to buy all the
individual pieces of a complete car engine from GM for less than a new
crate motor costs. All the individual pieces of a car should cost less
than a built car, shouldn't they? It seems to me like the makings of a
reasonable fair trade law that could end this abuse of the customer.


What about the cost of packing them as individual parts, cataloging them,
shipping, sorting and stocking them individually? None of this is nessesary
if the whole thing is bought assembled.


  #8   Report Post  
Jerry G.
 
Posts: n/a
Default

It is like that for everything when you look at the true cost of the part
itself. They manufactures have high administration and operations costs. If
something is not moving very fast off the shelves, then its effective cost
is higher.

You also have to consider that when you are servicing your own devices, the
labour is actually very expensive. A very good skilled tech has to be paid
at least $20 US or more per hour. To operate a business, you would have to
charge enough on top to have the operating costs, taxes phones, a vehicle,
utilities, and administration costs also to be paid. This is why many of the
service centres are charging more than $50 per hour to work on appliances,
and home electronics. If you look at the total operating costs for a typical
business, there has to be a fair amount of money coming in, or they would
have to close down.

As for the low to medium end CD players and VCR's very few people are
servicing them. The cost for the labour alone, is just too high to make it
worth it. For the low end units, many of the manufactures are no longer
supplying or stocking replacement parts. It just does not pay.

As for legislation to make price control, this will never happen in our
society. If this starts, this will be the downfall of the way we live. There
is the aspect of price and demand. If a company starts to charge too high,
they will find that they will not be in business much longer.

--

Jerry G.
======


"Chris F." wrote in message
...
I was aware that manufacturers charged high prices for replacement parts,
but I wasn't aware of just bad the problem was until recently. I was looking
for a replacement DVD laser pickup for Hitachi (see my earlier post) and
finally located one from a Hitachi parts distributor. The price? $205 Cdn. I
can't believe anyone would have the nerve to charge such ridiculous prices
for a replacement part, especially when an entire new unit can be purchased
for much less! Obviously, plain old greed is the motivation for this scam,
but I have to wonder about a couple of other things....
1. How do the mfrs actually make this kind of money from replacment parts?
They must be making it somehow, or they wouldn't bother to jack the prices
up so high.
2. Could enough techs band together to force some kind of legislation,
limiting the prices of replacement parts? (not likely, but I thought this
could make for some interesting discussion)
One thing about working in this industry; you certainly get to see the
greedy, money-loving side of society. Be it while buying replacement parts,
trying to make a sale, or just giving an estimate to a customer. Anyone
still working in the repair industry today is probably there for one of two
reasons; they enjoy the work, or they don't have any other options available
(both apply to me). Money obviously isn't the motivitation!
Just another $.02 of mine.



  #9   Report Post  
Michael A. Terrell
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Chris F." wrote:

I was aware that manufacturers charged high prices for replacement parts,
but I wasn't aware of just bad the problem was until recently. I was looking
for a replacement DVD laser pickup for Hitachi (see my earlier post) and
finally located one from a Hitachi parts distributor. The price? $205 Cdn. I
can't believe anyone would have the nerve to charge such ridiculous prices
for a replacement part, especially when an entire new unit can be purchased
for much less! Obviously, plain old greed is the motivation for this scam,
but I have to wonder about a couple of other things....
1. How do the mfrs actually make this kind of money from replacment parts?
They must be making it somehow, or they wouldn't bother to jack the prices
up so high.
2. Could enough techs band together to force some kind of legislation,
limiting the prices of replacement parts? (not likely, but I thought this
could make for some interesting discussion)
One thing about working in this industry; you certainly get to see the
greedy, money-loving side of society. Be it while buying replacement parts,
trying to make a sale, or just giving an estimate to a customer. Anyone
still working in the repair industry today is probably there for one of two
reasons; they enjoy the work, or they don't have any other options available
(both apply to me). Money obviously isn't the motivitation!
Just another $.02 of mine.



Have you ever worked in manufacturing? I worked as a production and
engineering test tech. Lets say I needed a 0805 SMD resistor. Our cost
was a little over 1 cent. On the other hand the paperwork and time to
look up the part number, request the part, have it pulled from the
stockroom and get it to my bench was over $5.00. I finally got
permission to get these parts 100 at a time to reduce overhead. I used
a lot of SMD resistors, so I had over 100 different values of 1% & .1%
resistors on my bench, along with common SMD ICs and a few crystals.

In other words, you have to live it to understand it. You are asking
for a very fragile and expensive part that wouldn't be sold every day if
it was five dollars. It needs special handling at all stages and a lot
of administrative costs, not to mention outrageous taxes on spare parts
inventory. Why do you think companies in the US try to use the lousy
J.I.T. system? It looks good in theory, but leads to shortages and no
spare parts.

The additional costs for spare parts doesn't bother the government
because they are just giving back the taxes you paid, along with the
cost of the part.


It isn't worth 2 cents.

--
?

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
  #10   Report Post  
kip
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Now you are fully aware of what we the servicer have to put up with.
kip
"Chris F." wrote in message
...
I was aware that manufacturers charged high prices for replacement parts,
but I wasn't aware of just bad the problem was until recently. I was
looking
for a replacement DVD laser pickup for Hitachi (see my earlier post) and
finally located one from a Hitachi parts distributor. The price? $205 Cdn.
I
can't believe anyone would have the nerve to charge such ridiculous prices
for a replacement part, especially when an entire new unit can be
purchased
for much less! Obviously, plain old greed is the motivation for this scam,
but I have to wonder about a couple of other things....
1. How do the mfrs actually make this kind of money from replacment
parts?
They must be making it somehow, or they wouldn't bother to jack the prices
up so high.
2. Could enough techs band together to force some kind of legislation,
limiting the prices of replacement parts? (not likely, but I thought this
could make for some interesting discussion)
One thing about working in this industry; you certainly get to see the
greedy, money-loving side of society. Be it while buying replacement
parts,
trying to make a sale, or just giving an estimate to a customer. Anyone
still working in the repair industry today is probably there for one of
two
reasons; they enjoy the work, or they don't have any other options
available
(both apply to me). Money obviously isn't the motivitation!
Just another $.02 of mine.






  #11   Report Post  
n cook
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Chris F." wrote in message ...
I was aware that manufacturers charged high prices for replacement parts,
but I wasn't aware of just bad the problem was until recently. I was looking
for a replacement DVD laser pickup for Hitachi (see my earlier post) and
finally located one from a Hitachi parts distributor. The price? $205 Cdn. I
can't believe anyone would have the nerve to charge such ridiculous prices
for a replacement part, especially when an entire new unit can be purchased
for much less! Obviously, plain old greed is the motivation for this scam,
but I have to wonder about a couple of other things....
1. How do the mfrs actually make this kind of money from replacment parts?
They must be making it somehow, or they wouldn't bother to jack the prices
up so high.
2. Could enough techs band together to force some kind of legislation,
limiting the prices of replacement parts? (not likely, but I thought this
could make for some interesting discussion)
One thing about working in this industry; you certainly get to see the
greedy, money-loving side of society. Be it while buying replacement parts,
trying to make a sale, or just giving an estimate to a customer. Anyone
still working in the repair industry today is probably there for one of two
reasons; they enjoy the work, or they don't have any other options available
(both apply to me). Money obviously isn't the motivitation!
Just another $.02 of mine.


I was told this indirectly but it explained the astronomic parts costs
for the company involved ( scope manufacture ).
At a regular review period, annually or two-yearly I don't remember,
they would divide
the parts stock in 2 , sell off at auction one half and double the
price of the remainder.

electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse
  #12   Report Post  
Chris F.
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I realize that you have to have a certain amount of markup, to conpensate
for such expenses. But I think that mfrs could probably sell replacement
parts at much lower prices, and still make a decent profit. As someone else
implied, they simply want to make their products unprofitable to service -
and I still think that's the primary reason for such costly replacement
parts.

"Jerry G." wrote in message
...
It is like that for everything when you look at the true cost of the part
itself. They manufactures have high administration and operations costs.

If
something is not moving very fast off the shelves, then its effective cost
is higher.

You also have to consider that when you are servicing your own devices,

the
labour is actually very expensive. A very good skilled tech has to be paid
at least $20 US or more per hour. To operate a business, you would have to
charge enough on top to have the operating costs, taxes phones, a vehicle,
utilities, and administration costs also to be paid. This is why many of

the
service centres are charging more than $50 per hour to work on appliances,
and home electronics. If you look at the total operating costs for a

typical
business, there has to be a fair amount of money coming in, or they would
have to close down.

As for the low to medium end CD players and VCR's very few people are
servicing them. The cost for the labour alone, is just too high to make it
worth it. For the low end units, many of the manufactures are no longer
supplying or stocking replacement parts. It just does not pay.

As for legislation to make price control, this will never happen in our
society. If this starts, this will be the downfall of the way we live.

There
is the aspect of price and demand. If a company starts to charge too

high,
they will find that they will not be in business much longer.

--

Jerry G.
======


"Chris F." wrote in message
...
I was aware that manufacturers charged high prices for replacement

parts,
but I wasn't aware of just bad the problem was until recently. I was

looking
for a replacement DVD laser pickup for Hitachi (see my earlier post) and
finally located one from a Hitachi parts distributor. The price? $205 Cdn.

I
can't believe anyone would have the nerve to charge such ridiculous prices
for a replacement part, especially when an entire new unit can be

purchased
for much less! Obviously, plain old greed is the motivation for this scam,
but I have to wonder about a couple of other things....
1. How do the mfrs actually make this kind of money from replacment

parts?
They must be making it somehow, or they wouldn't bother to jack the prices
up so high.
2. Could enough techs band together to force some kind of legislation,
limiting the prices of replacement parts? (not likely, but I thought this
could make for some interesting discussion)
One thing about working in this industry; you certainly get to see the
greedy, money-loving side of society. Be it while buying replacement

parts,
trying to make a sale, or just giving an estimate to a customer. Anyone
still working in the repair industry today is probably there for one of

two
reasons; they enjoy the work, or they don't have any other options

available
(both apply to me). Money obviously isn't the motivitation!
Just another $.02 of mine.





  #13   Report Post  
Ken G.
 
Posts: n/a
Default

These days the way they can pack things by machine and do it all in
China it does not cost that much to stock parts .
The bottom line is they dont sell those high priced DVD lazers on
porpose and dont even have them in stock because after a 200$ quote
anyone would go buy a whole new player for 45$ .
If someone is dumb enough to pay 200$ for one of those can get it .. One
of the workers at the plant in China holds a coffee cup under the lazer
pooping machine & catches one , chucks it in a box & off it goes .

  #14   Report Post  
Terry
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Chris F." wrote in message
...
I was aware that manufacturers charged high prices for replacement parts,
........ snipped
options available
(both apply to me). Money obviously isn't the motivitation!
Just another $.02 of mine.

My .02. The high cost of replacement printer cartridges; compared to initial
cost of a printer. Does not compute!


  #15   Report Post  
NSM
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Terry" wrote in message
...

My .02. The high cost of replacement printer cartridges; compared to

initial
cost of a printer. Does not compute!


Ink jet ink costs much more per ml than the finest vintage wine.

N




  #16   Report Post  
PaPaPeng
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 02:28:20 -0500, "Jerry G."
wrote:

s for the low to medium end CD players and VCR's very few people are
servicing them. The cost for the labour alone, is just too high to make it
worth it. For the low end units, many of the manufactures are no longer
supplying or stocking replacement parts. It just does not pay.

As for legislation to make price control, this will never happen in our
society. If this starts, this will be the downfall of the way we live. There
is the aspect of price and demand. If a company starts to charge too high,
they will find that they will not be in business much longer.

--


There exists legislation that manufacturers must stock spare parts for
out of production equipment for seven years (or some length of time
like that.) This was enacted in the 80s in response to consumer
complaints that manufacturers were gouging consumers by forcing them
to buy new models when a spare part costing a few dollars would have
kept the equipment chugging along fine for a few more years. The
manufacturer's work around to comply with the law was to make
replacement parts prohibitively expensive. Of course original
equipment is so inexpensive these days that repairs are never worth
the time and effort even if one has the inclination to tinker.
  #17   Report Post  
Mark D. Zacharias
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"PaPaPeng" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 02:28:20 -0500, "Jerry G."
wrote:

s for the low to medium end CD players and VCR's very few people are
servicing them. The cost for the labour alone, is just too high to make it
worth it. For the low end units, many of the manufactures are no longer
supplying or stocking replacement parts. It just does not pay.

As for legislation to make price control, this will never happen in our
society. If this starts, this will be the downfall of the way we live.
There
is the aspect of price and demand. If a company starts to charge too
high,
they will find that they will not be in business much longer.

--


There exists legislation that manufacturers must stock spare parts for
out of production equipment for seven years (or some length of time
like that.) This was enacted in the 80s in response to consumer
complaints that manufacturers were gouging consumers by forcing them
to buy new models when a spare part costing a few dollars would have
kept the equipment chugging along fine for a few more years. The
manufacturer's work around to comply with the law was to make
replacement parts prohibitively expensive. Of course original
equipment is so inexpensive these days that repairs are never worth
the time and effort even if one has the inclination to tinker.


If this was ever true, it isn't anymore. The manufacturers are only required
to support their product for the duration of the stated warranty, and this
can include factory-only repair or just exchanging with a like or
"equivalent" product. (How many computer monitors are imported with NO spare
parts?)

Company policy and market forces are all that determine parts cost and
availability. Certainly laser pickups are overpriced as a rule, but this
just means the companies in question aren't interested in selling parts out
of warranty, but still stock them (or previously did) for warranty repairs.
Eventually they'll sell them in bulk to MCM or somebody else.


Mark Z.



  #18   Report Post  
Leonard Caillouet
 
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Default

Where exactly is this legislation found? Enacted in the 80s?

Leonard

"PaPaPeng" wrote in message
...
There exists legislation that manufacturers must stock spare parts for
out of production equipment for seven years (or some length of time
like that.) This was enacted in the 80s in response to consumer
complaints that manufacturers were gouging consumers by forcing them
to buy new models when a spare part costing a few dollars would have
kept the equipment chugging along fine for a few more years. The
manufacturer's work around to comply with the law was to make
replacement parts prohibitively expensive. Of course original
equipment is so inexpensive these days that repairs are never worth
the time and effort even if one has the inclination to tinker.



  #19   Report Post  
JW
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 02:16:36 GMT "NSM" wrote in Message
id: 8isYd.42060$fc4.1803@edtnps89:


"Chris F." wrote in message
...
I was aware that manufacturers charged high prices for replacement

parts,
but I wasn't aware of just bad the problem was until recently. I was

looking
for a replacement DVD laser pickup for Hitachi (see my earlier post) and
finally located one from a Hitachi parts distributor. The price? $205 Cdn.

I
can't believe anyone would have the nerve to charge such ridiculous prices
for a replacement part


Price a plastic radiator fan for an auto (no motor). Molded price ex
factory? Less than $1. Your price? $50+


Hell, I ended up paying $300 for a heater blower motor for my car when it
went south - couldn't find any in the local boneyards. An el-cheapo motor
worth about 15 bucks.
  #20   Report Post  
NSM
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"n cook" wrote in message
m...

I was told this indirectly but it explained the astronomic parts costs
for the company involved ( scope manufacture ).
At a regular review period, annually or two-yearly I don't remember,
they would divide
the parts stock in 2 , sell off at auction one half and double the
price of the remainder.


Also there are military prices. I was told that when the army wants mil-spec
bolts as parts they order them as needed, 4 at a time. The makers said they
give the bolts to the army for free, shipping free as well, but the army
wants a full set of paper work each time and that's what they are billed
for.

N




  #21   Report Post  
N Cook
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"NSM" wrote in message news:NxmZd.36583$ZO2.329@edtnps84...

"n cook" wrote in message
m...

I was told this indirectly but it explained the astronomic parts costs
for the company involved ( scope manufacture ).
At a regular review period, annually or two-yearly I don't remember,
they would divide
the parts stock in 2 , sell off at auction one half and double the
price of the remainder.


Also there are military prices. I was told that when the army wants

mil-spec
bolts as parts they order them as needed, 4 at a time. The makers said

they
give the bolts to the army for free, shipping free as well, but the army
wants a full set of paper work each time and that's what they are billed
for.

N



What was the price for NASA spanners ?

Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse




  #22   Report Post  
NSM
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"N Cook" wrote in message
...

What was the price for NASA spanners ?


Over here they're 'wrenches', but probably more than the $900 hammers the
Army used to buy.

N


  #23   Report Post  
jim burke
 
Posts: n/a
Default



My .02. The high cost of replacement printer cartridges; compared to

initial
cost of a printer. Does not compute!


Ink jet ink costs much more per ml than the finest vintage wine.

N


And it tastes terrible.

It's all a conspiracy by the landfill operators.

  #24   Report Post  
NSM
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"jim burke" wrote in message
...


My .02. The high cost of replacement printer cartridges; compared to

initial
cost of a printer. Does not compute!


Ink jet ink costs much more per ml than the finest vintage wine.

N


And it tastes terrible.

It's all a conspiracy by the landfill operators.


Some people buy cartridges on eBay from those 'pallet resellers'. They
REALLY get PO'd when they find out their as-is cartridges are used and
empty!

N



  #25   Report Post  
none
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 02:51:58 GMT, "NSM" wrote:


"N Cook" wrote in message
...

What was the price for NASA spanners ?


Over here they're 'wrenches', but probably more than the $900 hammers the
Army used to buy.

N

Hey, I got several of those Hammers in my service days.
One of our supply clerks got a few of the numbers wrong or some such
and instead of receiving12 hammers we got a gross.( The clerk managed
to pull a few strings with someone at main supply in Norfolk to cover
up the gaff but had to lose all those hammers before command ran the
next quarterly audit of supplies. Just about every lowly enlisted type
got a box of them.)
As I recall I hid mine in the CO's filing cabinet.
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