Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,163
Default USA wiring question

Hey All,
I have seen this done and I never questioned it but now that I was
about to do it I'm wondering.
In a well pump house there are always lights being run on 120
volts. The pump runs on 240 volts though. The breaker at the panel in
the house that supplies power to the pump protects the heavy gauge
wire running to the pump house. Inside the pump house is lighter gauge
wiring running to the light. This wiring is connected to one leg of
the 240 volt power and to the neutral.
Does the 120 volt circuit need its own breaker in the pump house? I
have never noticed one in any pump house I've been in, and I have been
in several seeing as where I live most of the people I know are on a
well. But I'm thinking code must require another breaker to protect
the lighter gauge wire.
Anyway, wiring in the pump house is on hold until I know the
correct way.
Thanks,
Eric
  #3   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,625
Default USA wiring question

Main feed to breaker-box in pump-house.
In breaker-box, one double-pole breaker to pump.
One single-pole breaker to lights.
One single-pole breaker to receptacle(s).

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
  #5   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 138
Default USA wiring question

On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 1:32:54 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:

I admit that I do not have any idea about the code. However if it is
just a simple light maybe it is like in most homes. The wire going from
the actual light socket is often much lighter than the wire that is ran
to it and the breaker is sized for.

Main concern in most cases is that a true neutral wire and there is
ground wire, or are they cheating and using the ground wire for the
neutral ?



I have run into wells that ran the light from one side of the 240VAC, to the well casing. There was no neutral or ground wire run to the building. These were all built in the '64 and '65 time frame by the same well driller, and before there was a local building code for pump houses.

My well pump has 240 for the pump, a 120V circuit for lights and another for a small heater. These are in a nearby laundry building, since there is no door on the pump cover. There is also a digital wattmeter for the pump, to see if it is running properly.


  #7   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,163
Default USA wiring question

On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 13:32:45 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...
Does the 120 volt circuit need its own breaker in the pump house?

In a word, yes.
120 volt lighting typically is #14 AWG and requires a 15 amp breaker.
120 volt outlets should be #12 AWG and require a 20 amp breaker.
A simple sub-panel in the well house with a "quad" breaker would be
the simplest solution.
https://www.zoro.com/static/cms/product/full/Z1wBpzmcpEx_.JPG




I admitt that I do not have any idea about the code. However if it is
just a simple light maybe it is like in most homes. The wire going from
the actual light socket is often much lighter than the wire that is ran
to it and the breaker is sized for.

Main concern in most cases is that a true neutral wire and there is
ground wire, or are they cheating and using the ground wire for the
neutral ?

Well, I assumed they were using a real neutral. In my neighbor's well
house there is a real neutral. I know this because I have had to do
work on his pumps.
Eric
  #8   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,163
Default USA wiring question

On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:05:18 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Main feed to breaker-box in pump-house.
In breaker-box, one double-pole breaker to pump.
One single-pole breaker to lights.
One single-pole breaker to receptacle(s).

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

So I use a breaker in the house main panel to feed the well house and
then use another breaker for the pump and one for the lights, right?
The breaker in the house is to protect the 10 gauge wire running to
the pump house, the other breakers to protect the pump itself and the
lighting circuit.
Eric
  #9   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 43
Default USA wiring question

On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 12:35:49 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hey All,
I have seen this done and I never questioned it but now that I was
about to do it I'm wondering.
In a well pump house there are always lights being run on 120
volts. The pump runs on 240 volts though. The breaker at the panel in
the house that supplies power to the pump protects the heavy gauge
wire running to the pump house. Inside the pump house is lighter gauge
wiring running to the light. This wiring is connected to one leg of
the 240 volt power and to the neutral.
Does the 120 volt circuit need its own breaker in the pump house? I
have never noticed one in any pump house I've been in, and I have been
in several seeing as where I live most of the people I know are on a
well. But I'm thinking code must require another breaker to protect
the lighter gauge wire.
Anyway, wiring in the pump house is on hold until I know the
correct way.
Thanks,
Eric


absolutely need a breaker on the 120vac leg. I am rusty on my NEC knowledge but, I would put a distribution panel in the pumphouse. I am assuming that the 240 feed from the house is split before the house distribution panel
J
  #10   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,163
Default USA wiring question

On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:00:57 -0800 (PST), three_jeeps
wrote:

On Monday, February 24, 2020 at 12:35:49 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hey All,
I have seen this done and I never questioned it but now that I was
about to do it I'm wondering.
In a well pump house there are always lights being run on 120
volts. The pump runs on 240 volts though. The breaker at the panel in
the house that supplies power to the pump protects the heavy gauge
wire running to the pump house. Inside the pump house is lighter gauge
wiring running to the light. This wiring is connected to one leg of
the 240 volt power and to the neutral.
Does the 120 volt circuit need its own breaker in the pump house? I
have never noticed one in any pump house I've been in, and I have been
in several seeing as where I live most of the people I know are on a
well. But I'm thinking code must require another breaker to protect
the lighter gauge wire.
Anyway, wiring in the pump house is on hold until I know the
correct way.
Thanks,
Eric


absolutely need a breaker on the 120vac leg. I am rusty on my NEC knowledge but, I would put a distribution panel in the pumphouse. I am assuming that the 240 feed from the house is split before the house distribution panel
J

I don't know what you mean, split before the house distribution panel.
The pump now is fed from the main breaker panel in the house. It is on
its own breaker. When the pump house is done I will install a sub
panel in it to distribute power to the pump and to lights and to a 120
volt receptacle.
Eric


  #11   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,625
Default USA wiring question

If you have 10 gauge, 4-conductor wiring to the pump-house, you are fine doing as you plan. That would be 1-Hot 2-Neutral 3-hot 4-ground into the sub-panel. Then, a double-pole breaker to the pump for 240 Volts, and single pole breakers to light(s) and receptacle(s).

If you do not have an existing separate ground coming from the house, you will need to add a ground rod in the pump-house to ground the sub-panel. And it is still bad practice to use the feeder ground as a neutral - even though they are (should be) bonded in your main house panel. However, this used to happen all the time with heavy appliances being fed with SE Cable such as stoves and dryers, even though they had both 240 and 120 volt-functions on-board.

Good luck with it!
  #12   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,163
Default USA wiring question

On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:10:57 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

If you have 10 gauge, 4-conductor wiring to the pump-house, you are fine doing as you plan. That would be 1-Hot 2-Neutral 3-hot 4-ground into the sub-panel. Then, a double-pole breaker to the pump for 240 Volts, and single pole breakers to light(s) and receptacle(s).

If you do not have an existing separate ground coming from the house, you will need to add a ground rod in the pump-house to ground the sub-panel. And it is still bad practice to use the feeder ground as a neutral - even though they are (should be) bonded in your main house panel. However, this used to happen all the time with heavy appliances being fed with SE Cable such as stoves and dryers, even though they had both 240 and 120 volt-functions on-board.

Good luck with it!

Yeah, I have 4 wires. I planned ahead when I first wired the pump. I
am not always so organized.
Eric
  #15   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 113
Default USA wiring question

So I use a breaker in the house main panel to feed the well house and then use another breaker for the pump and one for the lights, right?

You do not need another breaker for the pump if the one in the house is properly rated. However for lights and outlets you do.

A 240V breaker is a tandem which means when one side overloads both trip. They are mechanically coupled to achieve that.

There is a five move rule, you have to be able to shut down the whole building in five moves. So you'll have two, one for lights one for outlets. IF there is a box it has to be, however if it is ONLY the pump then don't even worry about it. I am unsure though if the one breaker in the house qualifies as a one move shutdown, is should but the code can be weird, you put a box in there and you got more rules. So if you have another breaker out there that is one move. Outlets a move, lights a move. If for any reason you have to add more circuits out there then all you get is five unless there is another main out there, which I think is unnecessary.

What would you add ? A pool pump ? Those are mostly 240V but with the tandem breaker that is only one move.

One of the houses I put a panel in I retained the original FPE box and used what used to go to fuses, a 50 amp, to the main lugs of the sub panel. The backyard where the meter was was all overgrown with trees and weeds, trees that used to be weeds and just forget it. So then some yahoo comes in and mumbles something about code and eliminates the original FPE box. Now it is like 12 moves to shut down the building, THAT is against code. I washed my hands of it. I would have put the main kit on the box, GEs have that option, but of course he didn't bother with that. Once someone does that I am absolved when the house burns down and guess what...

The same guy saw my furnace which was installed sideways, which is code and it was a furnace made for it. (it must, the flame arrestor is configured differently) It was nice because there was a huige return oh the first floor right into the intake so I put the filter so they could change it without going in the basement. Hey the guy was getting old.

The reason for the after the fact ranys is to watch who you listen to when it comes to code. Evne if they show you the book, there are sections. Like this driveway here, I wasn't here for that but the guy cheated, put the new driveway about 1-2" higher than the original. They of course guarantee it not to crack but didn't want to do the digging. If someone bitched he would have sid it is code, but that is bull****. Tell him to show you the book and he'll open the pages on footers and foundations, which ARE regulated. Ask "Then how the hell can I have a cement basement floor ?".

For any of this **** go to a union hall and hang around a little. Catch them walking out, if they are there early in the afternoon they are probably looking for work. Most have a problem with residential here on 38 unless it is a new install of something. But some will do it. here, they got stickers and if they put their sticker on the job the inspector doesn't even look. He knows it is right. There is a unique number for each journeyman and if **** happens it falls on them. You might pay over $200 a day but you can pay some asshole that much who doesn't know jack **** and endangers you.

Your call.

If you have the breaker in the house, you can use an old junk fusebox as long as you're only pulling 120v. However use that house ground, do not put another ground in and if you do not have a house ground out there and you do pound one in do not tie it to the neutral.

Also if you put a breaker out there for the pump it will have to be a GFCI. The one in the house is grandfathered in.


  #16   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,625
Default USA wiring question

A sub panel should not have the neutral and earth ground bonded. They
need to be separate.


Yes. There is nothing "neutral" about a neutral. And why it is that if there are only three wires from the House (Main) panel to the sub panel, an additional SEPARATE ground must be provided in the Pump House, as that third wire is now, de-facto, the neutral.

As it happens, there is no reason not to have multiple GROUNDS within a system, as long as there is one, and only one Neutral. I remember back in the day the master-electrician I worked for was a fanatic about balancing loads as closely as practical, even in a residential application. If loads are exactly balanced, then from the Panel to the Pole, the neutral will carry no current at all. But within the residence, pretty much every neutral will carry load. Easily demonstrated with an ammeter.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
  #20   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 633
Default USA wiring question

On 2/27/20 12:44 AM, Jeff Urban wrote:
You do not need another breaker for the pump if the one
in the house is properly rated. However for lights and
outlets you do.


As usual, you are wrong.

You put a breaker at the source (service panel) to protect
the line running to the pump.
You are required to have a disconnect AT the pump. Another
breaker in a sub panel for the pump/well house is the
easiest way to accomplish that.

As I said previously, and using a 30 amp service to the
pump as an example.

1. 30 amp dual breaker for a 10-3 run to the pump.
2. A four slot sub panel (rated at 30 amps minimum) at the
pump.
3. A 30 amp dual breaker for the pump.
4. An additional 20 amp single for any outlets.
5. And a 15-20 Amp breaker for any lighting circuit.

If the pump motor is electrically connected to the well
casing, do NOT ground it through the ground from the service
panel. Use the service panel for the grounds on the outlet
and lighting circuits only.

It's NOT that complicated people.
Try not to make it complicated or unsafe.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com


  #21   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 173
Default USA wiring question

Since the pump house is a "detached" structure, the pump house panel should have a local ground rod for lightning protection. Ground and neutral should remain separated.

The number of breakers determine whether or not it needs a main breaker. Memory says 6.

Panels are divided into two major categories "main lug" or "main breaker". "main lug" is wired for separated N and ground. "Main breaker" has a "main breaker" and the N and G are bonded together.

Usually there is a way to unbond the neutral and you purchase a ground bar kit to add to the panel. This gives you the separate G and N connections and a disconnect for that sub-panel.

You can read the NEC for free online.

  #23   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 810
Default USA wiring question



Why not just to the one where the branch circuits all connect (if different from where the meter is)?


What happens when that one wire opens? A bad neutral is a very common fault. Then you have no place for a fault current to go. RIP!.


Its even worse, if that one wire opens disconnecting the machine from the neutral/ground, the case of the machine can become electrically live because current will flow through the load to the ground/neutral.

Anyone touching the case could be shocked.

m


  #24   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 113
Default USA wiring question

As usual, you are wrong.

Mm Hhm.

You say what you want Means nothing.
  #25   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 633
Default USA wiring question

On 3/5/20 3:00 AM, Jeff Urban wrote:
As usual, you are wrong.


Mm Hhm.

You say what you want Means nothing.


I suppose it wouldn't if you have zero comprehension.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crimped connectors in household wiring in USA =?iso-8859-15?Q?Tekkie=AE?= Home Repair 33 October 20th 17 02:59 AM
NEC question: low-voltage wiring crossing 120v wiring. Percival P. Cassidy Home Repair 31 October 3rd 11 12:42 PM
Internal wiring of USA v UK mains plug n cook Electronics Repair 304 July 12th 07 10:36 AM
OT USA Radiator question James Salisbury UK diy 2 April 9th 07 10:40 AM
where in the usa can i buy a house or apartment for 10to20,000 usa dollars [email protected] Home Ownership 13 October 28th 05 07:42 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:23 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2023 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"