Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Old July 18th 19, 04:11 PM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 05:01:27 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

If that makes it work, then my problem is likely the "sensing" circuitry,
where this sticker explains all that sensing circuitry is hard coded, I
think: https://i.postimg.cc/Pr7zGN11/transfer12.jpg


Methinks your first problem is finding the box that controls the
automagic transfer switch (which contains the sensing, timing, and
switching logic). Something like this:
"Automatic Transfer Switch Controller Tutorial"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeqhhcRAwTM
It's probably inside the generator enclosure. Just look for another
rats nest of wires. The thresholds, timing, interlock, etc settings
are usually adjustable.

I have two guesses:

1. The +12VDC that runs the relay is probably missing because the
starter battery in the generator is dead, or the fuse that protects it
is blown. That might explain the missing fuses. It might also be
that State Electric took one look at the mess and ran away. There
might be some lower voltage coming from the charger trying to charge a
dead (shorted) cell.

2. Every controller I've seen has a self-test and/or test-run
feature. You should be able to test the transfer switch with the
test-run button instead of reworking the wiring.

Also, I have some suggestions:

1. Don't play with the transfer switch with the utility AC power
applied. The life you save may be your own. The undersized wires
feeding the transfer switch should go to a double breaker on the main
panel. Flip it open, check that there is now no AC on the contacts or
anywhere in the rats nest of wires, and then troubleshoot.

2. Draw as schematic diagram and label everything. If this were my
headache, that's the first thing I would do.

3. If you know a local electrician, who won't turn you in to the
county, have him look at the wiring and make some recommendations.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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Old July 18th 19, 05:07 PM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

Jeff:

The creature that calls itself Arlen G. Holder is trying hard for a Darwin Award.

For its sake, and ours, please let it win!

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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Old July 18th 19, 06:12 PM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair,alt.war.vietnam
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Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 09:08:12 -0700, "fake vet Afro-Eyetalian Scatboi
Colon La Edmund J. Burke" wrote:

On 7/18/2019 5:29 AM, jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry' Shein's jew aliash)! wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:28:13 -0700, "fake vet Afro-Eyetalian Scatboi
Colon La Edmund J. Burke" wrote:

On 7/17/2019 3:34 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:43:12 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg

How about a real Gernerac model number? The part and assembly numbers
on the visible nameplates don't seem to point to a particular model.

I couldn't find a model number, so how about a search by serial
number?
http://www.generac.com/service-support/product-support-lookup
http://soa.generac.com/selfhelp/media/a10b5411-0518-44f9-8553-c1b89b4f232c

Incidentally, you should consider labeling the cables, wires,
terminals, fuses, etc.

Why two transfer switches?

Got a schematic of how you wired it? If not, trace the wires and make
one.


Liebermann? Is that jewish?


What if it is some jew asshole? Are you 'anti-semitic' or
something???

Only when it comes to self-hating jew ****s!


Good to know.
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Old July 18th 19, 07:45 PM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 08:11:52 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Methinks your first problem is finding the box that controls the
automagic transfer switch (which contains the sensing, timing, and
switching logic). Something like this:
"Automatic Transfer Switch Controller Tutorial"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeqhhcRAwTM
It's probably inside the generator enclosure. Just look for another
rats nest of wires. The thresholds, timing, interlock, etc settings
are usually adjustable.


Hi Jeff,
I agree with you, and I can clearly see that there is a rat's nest inside
the generator, which must be doing the initial sensing of the power in the
first place, as you mentioned.

I think my task is EASIER than looking at that rat's nest inside the
generator though, since all I need are the wires coming OUT of the
generator.

I'm not sure yet where to FIND those wires inside the transfer switch, but
I think the first (and only?) place I need to look is at what the pins of
that "plastic solenoid" do...
https://i.postimg.cc/s20K8nkZ/transfer04.jpg
since that solenoid seems to send the purple and blue wire 12VDC to the
"double-fisted solenoid" to switch power from the mains to the generator.
https://i.postimg.cc/tgDN6rqM/transfer06.jpg

I have two guesses:

1. The +12VDC that runs the relay is probably missing because the
starter battery in the generator is dead, or the fuse that protects it
is blown. That might explain the missing fuses. It might also be
that State Electric took one look at the mess and ran away. There
might be some lower voltage coming from the charger trying to charge a
dead (shorted) cell.


I understand and appreciate this assessment, where there's LOTS I didn't
mention (which is always the case in such things), mainly the fact being I
"think" it was me who pulled those fuses long ago and forgot to put them
back (I think I was testing them but I don't actually recall).

Also, you're actually correct that the battery in the generator WAS dead,
since I had disconnected it to charge it, and then I had left it
disconnected where the charge eventually bled off. I actually had to
jumpstart the generator when the power last went out, but I have since
charged the battery (I'm gonna put quick connect clamps on the battery at
some point, which will help in the charging process since I have multiple
spare batteries I swap in and out of that generator).

2. Every controller I've seen has a self-test and/or test-run
feature. You should be able to test the transfer switch with the
test-run button instead of reworking the wiring.


This is good to know, for two reasons:
1. This is dangerous stuff so having safe tests is required, and,
2. Most of what I read suggested testing MONTHLY (which is crazy frequent)

Also, I have some suggestions:

1. Don't play with the transfer switch with the utility AC power
applied. The life you save may be your own. The undersized wires
feeding the transfer switch should go to a double breaker on the main
panel. Flip it open, check that there is now no AC on the contacts or
anywhere in the rats nest of wires, and then troubleshoot.


Thanks for that advice, Jeff, as I'm well aware of the power, but I'm not
sure yet how to test a transfer switch. It does seem prudent to test the
transfer switch ISOLATED from BOTH the mains and the generator.

Preventing the generator from turning on should be easy as it has a power
switch and it requires the battery so it's easy to prevent it from turning
on.

I'm not totally sure simply turning OFF the mains will isolate the transfer
switch - but that's simply because I'm currently ignorant of the wiring
diagram (which is one reason you said to do that first).

If the power goes from the power pole to the utility meter to the main 200
Amp breaker switch, and THEN to the transfer switch, then doing all tests
with the main 200Amp circuit breaker off is prudent. (Obviously I'd
doublecheck with the Fluke DMM.)

2. Draw as schematic diagram and label everything. If this were my
headache, that's the first thing I would do.


Yup. I agree. I had wanted from this question on Usenet to first get a
general idea of how these transfer switches work - which - I think I kind
of now have - but the exact wiring of every connection is still needed
before I can effectively troubleshoot.

Generac sent me the owners manual for my 09067-9 generator, which contains
exploded diagrams, for example, here's the exploded diagram of the 09067-9
Generator Control Panel:
https://i.postimg.cc/qq326cBh/Generac-Control-Panel-9067-9-16345-Page-19.jpg
And the wiring diagram for the 09067-9 generator itself:
https://i.postimg.cc/wMg9DggX/Generac-Generator-Wiriing-Diagram-9067-9-16345-Page-14.jpg

And here's the exploded view for the 79848A transfer switch:
https://i.postimg.cc/Hx4VqSLt/Generac-Transfer-Switch-Exploded-Diagram-9067-9-16345-Page-18.jpg
And the wiring diagram for the 79848A transfer switch:
https://i.postimg.cc/1XFTVs7N/Generac-Transfer-Switch-Wiring-Diagram-9067-9-16345-Page-15.jpg

3. If you know a local electrician, who won't turn you in to the
county, have him look at the wiring and make some recommendations.


Once, I called a well pump guy, and told him I had a problem, which he
fixed, but I told him before he came out to charge me based on the fact I
would be standing there right next to him as he debugged, asking him
questions while he did the work in front of me.

It was then that I noticed he simply replaced entire circuit boards, simply
by the process of pulling them out, putting the new one in, and finding
that it worked, so he was about to take the old circuit board "home" with
him, where I said if I'm paying for the new one, I want the old one (I
still have it). Some day I'll figure out specifically what's "wrong" with
it.

A similar thing happened with the heater repairman, who simply replaced the
main circuit board, but he insisted that there was a core charge which _he_
wanted back - and that he's have to charge me for that - so he got the core
charge, not me.

I learned from that that these guys replace the entire board rather than
figure out what's wrong ON the board.

Given that replacing things seems to be what the repair techs do also, in
this case, I think I have three options, two of which are what many people
use, while the third option is the approach I'm currently trying:
1. Replace everything, one by one, until the damn thing works
2. Pay State Electric or Spiess Electric to fix it (in my presence)
3. Debug the damn thing (after first figuring out how it works)

Personally, I like to debug first, where simply UNDERSTANDING how the
circuit works usually causes the offending part to SCREAM OUT that it's
broken.

To that end, I'll follow your advice and start marking up the panel with a
label of the purpose of each of the myriad connections.
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Old July 18th 19, 07:46 PM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:43:12 -0400, wrote:

There are literally dozens of varieties of fuses with different
ratings of how they blow in that configuration. I would try to find
out what Generac specs as the right fuse. For trouble shooting
purposes a 2a or 4a in any rating would work based on what you are
saying but long term I would get the one they spec. You could go to an
electrical supply or order them online. Home Depot is only going to
have the most popular sizes and ratings.


Thanks for that helpful advice where I gave up trying to source at a local
hardware store since I had tried three local box stores, none of which sold
the Buss BBS-4 or BBS-5 600V fuses
o Ace, Home Depot, Lowes

I called Generac today, where I was surprised to find that they don't have
an "opening" time - their customer support is open 24/7/365, which is
surprising in this day and age, don't you think?
o 888-GENERAC (888-436-3722) extension 4, extension 2 (or 262-544-4811)

They confirmed there is no separate manual for the 79848A transfer panels;
the transfer panels are covered in the 32-page owners manual (PN 98374) for
the Generac 09067-9 8KW propane generator itself (where the manual is
mostly about the generator but it does have a few pages about the transfer
switch).

There IS a parts diagram though, which gave me the Generac part numbers
o PN 63617 Transfer Relay https://i.postimg.cc/s20K8nkZ/transfer04.jpg
o PN 73590 BSS-2 Fuse 2A https://i.postimg.cc/DwTNdMhv/transfer05.jpg
o PN 71340 100Amp 2pole Relay https://i.postimg.cc/TYq0GY8x/transfer03.jpg
etc.

Generac told me the cheapest place to get the parts is usually
o https://www.jackssmallengines.com/
But they also said there is a good Generac parts lookup engine at
o https://www.ordertree.com/

Where I ran a quick price survey of the three parts above for reference:
o PN 63617 Transfer Relay $18 at Jacks, $25 at Tree
o PN 73590 BSS-2 Fuse 2A $6 at Jacks, $9 at Tree
o PN 71340 100Amp 2pole Relay $243 at Jacks, $287 at Tree
etc.

The nice thing about Usenet is that I like to give back to the team, as
you're aware (where I respond to all that are helpful at the same time I
try to ignore the worthless trolls) - where these two outfits "seem" to be
generally useful to source manufacturure parts for MORE than just Generac.
o https://www.jackssmallengines.com/
o https://www.ordertree.com/

Do folks here know of other outfits useful for sourcing common brand name
part numbers for these types of electrical parts (pumps, motors, openers,
etc.)?


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Old July 19th 19, 02:36 AM posted to alt.home.repair,sci.electronics.repair
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Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:45:43 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

Generac sent me the owners manual for my 09067-9 generator, which contains
exploded diagrams, for example, here's the exploded diagram of the 09067-9
Generator Control Panel:
https://i.postimg.cc/qq326cBh/Generac-Control-Panel-9067-9-16345-Page-19.jpg
And the wiring diagram for the 09067-9 generator itself:
https://i.postimg.cc/wMg9DggX/Generac-Generator-Wiriing-Diagram-9067-9-16345-Page-14.jpg


The wiring diagram of the generator shows the (missing) controller,
with all the connections to the automatic transfer switch. Pg12 of
the manual, lower schematic, shows wires 23 and 194 going to the
transfer switch. Since the other end of these wires goes only to the
solenoid (relay) coil, I would presume that these should have 0V
across them when the transfer switch is on utility power, and 12VDC(?)
when it on generator power. Put an LED and resistor across both
solenoid coil terminals so you can see what's happening without
fumbling with a volts guesser.

Unfortunately, there's no schematic for the controller logic board
which runs the show. Near the controller logic board is SW1, which is
the "start/stop" switch. That should NOT activate the relay on the
transfer switch. This is the generator test switch which I previously
indicated was on all such autostart generators.

SW2 is labeled "Set Exercise Switch" which is something like a "test"
switch but also is not intended to test the transfer switch. There
should be something in the manual on how to use this switch. Here's a
video that might offer a clue on what I think is a similar generator:
"How To Set Exercise Time on Generac Air Cooled Generator Pre Nexus
Controller APSwrap"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go0qt4n0dhs
There's quite a bit on how a proper test switch should operate:
https://www.google.com/search?q=automatic+transfer+switch+test

This is a typical generator test which demonstrates proper operation:
"Home Generator Transfer Test"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im1a-fST3cE

Also on the schematic is the fuse F1 (15A), which appears to protect
the controller 12VDC battery line. Check this fuse if you have a good
12VDC battery, but no controller function. If this 15A fuse is
actually blown, you potentially have a high current short somewhere in
the generator on the 12VDC line. Be careful tracking this one down.

And here's the exploded view for the 79848A transfer switch:
https://i.postimg.cc/Hx4VqSLt/Generac-Transfer-Switch-Exploded-Diagram-9067-9-16345-Page-18.jpg
And the wiring diagram for the 79848A transfer switch:
https://i.postimg.cc/1XFTVs7N/Generac-Transfer-Switch-Wiring-Diagram-9067-9-16345-Page-15.jpg


Remember, you have but one life to give for your backup power system.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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Old July 19th 19, 05:32 PM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

1. Note that it's a "Transfer Switch" and not an "Automatic Transfer Switch"

A Transfer switch is noting but a "BIG Relay" which is designed so mains and utility power CANNOT be connected at once if a part failed.

Emergency panel

If the generator is too small for the house, then you put the loads that need power in an emergency on a single panel. (e.g. refrigerator, sump pump etc)

The "automatic" part might do a number of things such as:
1. monthly/weekly test
2. monitor oil level
3. Exercise generator or generator and transfer.
4. make sure utility power is stable before taking generator offline.
5. Implement cool down phase.
6. The generator exercise period may top off the battery.
7. Monitor voltage/frequency
8. manage starting

So, voltage and frequency out of range will prevent transfer.
Oil level will prevent generator from starting automatically.

You may have two sub-panels and a pool. The pool does not get generator backup.
Looks like your missing stuff like fuses. You may just have a 12 V signal that tells it to transfer. It may or may not need power to keep it in one position.
I did not look at the details.

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Old July 21st 19, 12:23 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

On 7/19/19 12:32 PM, Ron D. wrote:
1. Note that it's a "Transfer Switch" and not an "Automatic Transfer
Switch"

A Transfer switch is noting but a "BIG Relay" which is designed so
mains and utility power CANNOT be connected at once if a part
failed.

Emergency panel

If the generator is too small for the house, then you put the loads
that need power in an emergency on a single panel. (e.g.
refrigerator, sump pump etc)

The "automatic" part might do a number of things such as: 1.
monthly/weekly test 2. monitor oil level 3. Exercise generator or
generator and transfer. 4. make sure utility power is stable before
taking generator offline. 5. Implement cool down phase. 6. The
generator exercise period may top off the battery. 7. Monitor
voltage/frequency 8. manage starting

So, voltage and frequency out of range will prevent transfer. Oil
level will prevent generator from starting automatically.

You may have two sub-panels and a pool. The pool does not get
generator backup. Looks like your missing stuff like fuses. You may
just have a 12 V signal that tells it to transfer. It may or may not
need power to keep it in one position. I did not look at the
details.


My transfer switch is a pair of 30A breakers for the genny and an
aluminum sheet that slides up and down, so that the main breaker and the
genny breakers can never be turned on at the same time.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com


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Old July 21st 19, 12:43 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?

On 7/20/19 6:23 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
My transfer switch is a pair of 30A breakers for the genny and an
aluminum sheet that slides up and down, so that the main breaker
and the genny breakers can never be turned on at the same time.


I have the same set up at the house.
200 Amp pass through panel with 200 amp main breaker. Then the 60
amp breaker for the 15 KW generator.



--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com


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