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-   -   How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work? (https://www.diybanter.com/electronics-repair/637821-how-heck-does-typical-home-transfer-switch-work.html)

Arlen G. Holder July 18th 19 04:52 AM

How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
 
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 23:25:34 -0400, wrote:

Essentially they are probably 2 100a panels fed by a 200a service.


What amp service do most people have?

I just put some chalk on the raised letters of my mains circuit breaker
which showed the mains breaker to be 200 Amps (not 300 Amps as I stated
prior).
https://i.postimg.cc/g2VRj758/transfer25.jpg

There are three separate 100 Amp breakers, each going to a different panel.
https://i.postimg.cc/NFX84jNP/transfer26.jpg

So I think, at this point, that the reason for the TWO 100A Generac model
79848A transfer switches
https://i.postimg.cc/ZnS4W9pb/transfer16.jpg
is simply that each one handles 100 amps nominally.
https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg

Now I just need to figure out how to debug why this two-fisted solenoid
isn't switching on automatically - but it does switch on when I flip it
manually.
https://i.postimg.cc/N0wQX4Jm/transfer02.jpg

Arlen G. Holder July 18th 19 04:55 AM

How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
 
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 23:25:34 -0400, wrote:

There are TWO DPDT switches there. I am not sure why they have two but
there are two ungrounded conductors going to each throw of each switch
and the line side seems to be parallel from the POCO. (See that big
taped up split bolt on each ungrounded conductor on the right side).
He said he has two load side panels serving half the house each and I
suspect that is why he needs 2 switches.
Essentially they are probably 2 100a panels fed by a 200a service.


Correction.

I just put some chalk on the raised letters of my mains circuit breaker
which showed the mains breaker to be 200 Amps (not 300 Amps).
https://i.postimg.cc/g2VRj758/transfer25.jpg

There are three separate 100 Amp breakers, each going to a different panel.
https://i.postimg.cc/NFX84jNP/transfer26.jpg

So I think, at this point, that the reason for the TWO 100A Generac model
79848A transfer switches
https://i.postimg.cc/ZnS4W9pb/transfer16.jpg
is simply that each one handles 100 amps nominally.
https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg

Now I just need to figure out how to debug why this two-fisted solenoid
isn't switching on automatically - but it does switch on when I flip it
manually.
https://i.postimg.cc/N0wQX4Jm/transfer02.jpg

Arlen G. Holder July 18th 19 05:22 AM

How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
 
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 23:34:03 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote:

The transfer switch needs to be sized fir the total LINE capacity, not
just the genset


Thanks Clare. That makes sense then as to why the puny generator is only 67
Amps, but since the Mains is 200 Amps, it needs two transfer switches of
nominally 100 Amps each.

Your crappy genset control board is not sensing the voltage output
properly, the genset voltage is below spec, or the controller is
mal-adjusted. If the genset voltage does not reach a specified value
it will NOT switch over. That voltage may be adjustable or the sensor
may be shot,


Thanks for that analysis, which I can't argue with.

Some of these voltages appear to be hard coded, based on this sticker
https://i.postimg.cc/Jn85TgZg/transfer11.jpg

Daughter just had to replace the control board on the heat pump on
their boat because it was mis-reading the shore-power voltage by half
- reading 57 instead of 114 - preventing the compressor from running.
Was a blown chip onthe board that was no longer available for
replacementby Flight Systems - the only facility in North America that
services the board which has been obsolete since 2015


I'll start looking up where to source spare parts, after calling Generac
tomorrow (1-800-GENERAC) to see if they still sell parts for this 79848A.

One problem I realized is that I lost 2 of the Buss fuses, which "may" be
why both transfer switches aren't turning on when the power goes out and
the generator turns on.

Funny thing is that advertisement for a similar transfer switch seems to
have the "green" Buss 600Volt fuses spec'd at 2 Amp based on this picture
of the Buss SBS-2 (green color code) for sale
https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/LgUAAOSw64NckUJ-/$/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-_57.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/1X200QR3/transfer21.jpg

Notice those are "SBS-2" green 600Volt fuses (not BBS!).

The sticker on the side panel of that transfer switch for sale, and on my
side panel both say the same thing, which "implies" 2 amp fuses at 600VAC.
https://i.postimg.cc/KzWDDzcG/transfer09.jpg

My fuses appear to be red (not green), and they appear to be
o BBS-4 (not SBS)
o BBS-5 (not SBS)

So what's odd is that mine are higher amperage, but also a different three
letter code (mine are BBS while the one for sale is SBS).

I tried to get these fuses at Home Depot, Lowes, and Ace today, but none of
them stock these fuse sizes in the 600 VAC rating.
https://i.postimg.cc/DwTNdMhv/transfer05.jpg

I realized I'm _missing_ two fuses, where, I don't recall, but maybe I
removed them to test them and never put them back? It would have been a
long time ago (a year or two) so the _first_ thing I'm gonna do is source
those Buss fuses after figuring out why some are 4amp and some are 5amp.

I'm not sure _why_ some are the red 4 amp and some are 5 amp though (while
the originals seem to be green 2 amp).

Googling, SBS does NOT stand for "slow blow" but for fast-acting!
https://www.ferrazfuses.com/cms_admin/fckeditor/editor/filemanager/connectors/php/bin/Midget%20Gen%20Pur%20SBS.pdf

Jeff Liebermann July 18th 19 05:25 AM

How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
 
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 03:22:39 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

The last guy who worked on that generator is in Santa Cruz, based on the
label on the outside panel, which I found buried under stuff.

This DEFINITELY WORKED so it's NOT miswired. The only problem is that the
solenoids are not automatically kicking on.


Let me guess... State Electric Generators formerly in Harvey West
Park? They moved to Scotts Valley:
https://www.stategen.com
High prices and so-so work. You could do worse. State does much
better work than what I saw in your photos which suggests that they
were fixing something.

Here's what SHOULD happen:
1. PG&E power goes out about monthly
2. The Generac generator automatically turns on
3. The two transfer switches should automatically turn on
4. The house should have two 100 Amps (the pool does NOT have power)
[Although the generator is puny - it's only able to output 67 amps!]
5. When PG&E comes back about 24 hours later - the generator turns off
6. The transfer switch transfers the two 100 Amps back to the mains

Everything above is working EXCEPT - I have to MANUALLY flip the
double-fisted solenoids.

If I switch just ONE of them, I get only half the house.
If I switch the SECOND one also, then I get the full house.

So my main problem is troubleshooting why the double-fisted solenoid is not
automatically turning on.


Try this video. Notice that the relays switch based on the condition
of one input wire labeled "transfer".
"Generac automatic transfer switch explained, demo"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT_3JYZS9Mg
The "transfer" line on the terminal strip comes from the electronics
that detects that the utility power has dropped and that the generator
has produced stable power for XX number of seconds. When it gets both
of those, it grounds the "transfer" wire, which closes the relay, etc.
In other words, your problem is not in the relay box, but rather in
whatever you're using for electronics to detect utility and generator
power (and timers). In the above video, it's the black box with all
the terminals and colorful labels. I don't see such a box full of
electronics in your photo:
https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg
Find the "transfer" terminal, disconnect whatever is connected to it,
ground it, and see if it acts like the relay in the video.

Incidentally, 200A service should use 2/0 copper (or 4/0 Aluminum or
CCA) minimum. In some counties, it's 3/0 copper minimum. That
doesn't look like 2/0 in the photo. More like #4. Color me very
suspicious.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Arlen G. Holder July 18th 19 06:01 AM

How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
 
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:25:30 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Let me guess... State Electric Generators formerly in Harvey West
Park? They moved to Scotts Valley:
https://www.stategen.com
High prices and so-so work. You could do worse. State does much
better work than what I saw in your photos which suggests that they
were fixing something.


You are pretty good Jeff, as these are the two stickers on the cover
https://i.postimg.cc/GmMxjVLY/transfer27.jpg

I generally obfuscate where I live, but suffice to say I can probably see
your house from where I am, or close to it. :)

Try this video. Notice that the relays switch based on the condition
of one input wire labeled "transfer".
"Generac automatic transfer switch explained, demo"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT_3JYZS9Mg


I'm glad the narrator said he couldn't find out how it worked online, which
is exactly the type of answer I'm asking about here.

At 34 seconds he explained what that cryptic "194" meant!
https://youtu.be/rT_3JYZS9Mg?t=34
And he explained what that cryptic "23" meant on my panel!
https://i.postimg.cc/tgDN6rqM/transfer06.jpg
Whe
o 23 === ground
o 194 === +12VDC
So I can now test the two-fisted solenoid by putting 12 VDC across them,
which is what the generator should do, which will "transfer" the power from
line power to generator power. (This is what I've been doing manually with
the mechanical lever.)
https://i.postimg.cc/HxWxgCnd/transfer28.jpg

The narrator then showed that when the PG&E power is restored, the
generator will _remove_ that 12VDC, which flips the two-fisted solenoid
back to "line" power.

The one bit of confusion is that he said at 90 seconds that each solenoid
is controlling 240 volts, but I think it might only be controlling 120
volts (but I'm not sure if it's controlling 120V or 220V yet).
https://youtu.be/rT_3JYZS9Mg?t=90

He then explained the transfer is controlled from the "plastic relay".
https://i.postimg.cc/s20K8nkZ/transfer04.jpg

The "transfer" line on the terminal strip comes from the electronics
that detects that the utility power has dropped and that the generator
has produced stable power for XX number of seconds. When it gets both
of those, it grounds the "transfer" wire, which closes the relay, etc.
In other words, your problem is not in the relay box, but rather in
whatever you're using for electronics to detect utility and generator
power (and timers). In the above video, it's the black box with all
the terminals and colorful labels. I don't see such a box full of
electronics in your photo:
https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg


I agree his box is different than mine, where mine is just like this one:
https://picclick.com/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-153421838181.html

Mine and that one for sale are "simpler" looking than his is.

Find the "transfer" terminal, disconnect whatever is connected to it,
ground it, and see if it acts like the relay in the video.


I think it should be easy to put 12VDC onto pins 23 & 194, but I need to
get a bunch of those BBS-4 and BBS-5 fuses first.

So my current plan is:
a. Source the two missing BBS-4 (or?) BBS-5 fuses.
b. Then test with 12VDC to see if the double-fisted solenoid operates

If that makes it work, then my problem is likely the "sensing" circuitry,
where this sticker explains all that sensing circuitry is hard coded, I
think: https://i.postimg.cc/Pr7zGN11/transfer12.jpg

Incidentally, 200A service should use 2/0 copper (or 4/0 Aluminum or
CCA) minimum. In some counties, it's 3/0 copper minimum. That
doesn't look like 2/0 in the photo. More like #4. Color me very
suspicious.


You have a good eye, where all I can say is that I didn't wire it.
I did INCORRECTLY say it was 300 Amp mains service, where, when I shined a
light on it and put chalk on the mains breaker, it turns out to be 200Amp
service. https://i.postimg.cc/g2VRj758/transfer25.jpg

What's odd is that there are _three_ 100 Amp sub panels!
https://i.postimg.cc/NFX84jNP/transfer26.jpg

Which seems kind of strange, but I didn't wire anything and all the permits
that were pulled were closed, so, it must make sense (code wise).

Two of those 100 Amp panels are in the house, and one is at the pool.

I need to call Generac (800-GENERAC) where I'm confused about the fuses
o Why BBS-4 _and_ BBS-5 fuses?
https://i.postimg.cc/DwTNdMhv/transfer05.jpg

Once I source those hard-to-get fuses, I will test the 12VDC at cryptic
pins 23 & 194.
https://i.postimg.cc/tgDN6rqM/transfer06.jpg

If the double-fisted solenoid does not trigger...
https://i.postimg.cc/TYq0GY8x/transfer03.jpg

then we know that the sensing circuit isn't working to put 12VDC across
those two pins. https://i.postimg.cc/s20K8nkZ/transfer04.jpg

Thanks for that wonderful video.

I'm a bit leery of what I can test with the MAINS connected though, since
the power is currently running fine ... so I will need to be careful since
it's only once a month that the PG&E power goes out for me to run the full
test.

Arlen G. Holder July 18th 19 06:45 AM

How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
 
On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 05:01:27 -0000 (UTC), Arlen G. Holder wrote:

I agree his box is different than mine, where mine is just like this one:
https://picclick.com/Generac-Transfer-Switch-100-Amp-250-VAC-One-153421838181.html


This is closer, but not exactly either, I think:
https://www.generator-parts.com/manuals/home-standby/078590.pdf

Apparently, they recommend testing the transfer switch _monthly_
https://www.ecmweb.com/contractor/test-transfer-switch

This has a transfer switch testing sequence
https://testguy.net/content/227-Transfer-Switch-Testing-and-Maintenance-Guide

I found a paper copy of the 32-page owners manual, part number 98374 which
is titled "Generac II Emergency Power Systems Owner's Manual" (revision 0,
dated 11/22/1995) and which contains a generic parts list and exploded
diagram for both the generator and transfer switch (apparently they come as
a matched set).

The four fuses in the exploded diagram just say 2 Amps 600Volts, but I
wonder if mine are double that because there are two transfer switches
(where on the net, the video Jeff provided _also_ used red 4 amp fuses!).
https://youtu.be/rT_3JYZS9Mg?t=123

I found that two outfits will sell generac parts to the public online:
https://www.jackssmallengines.com/
https://www.ordertree.com/

I'll call Generac tomorrow to get more details.
888-GENERAC (888-436-3722) extension 4, extension 2
1-262-544-4811

Micky-Bob July 18th 19 11:03 AM

How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
 
On 7/17/19 10:37 PM, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
On 7/17/19 4:43 PM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?


You can't possible be that stupid.
This is just another one of your long rambling posts that
goes on and on so you can listen to yourself.

Kindly go **** yourself.



+1

[email protected] July 18th 19 12:22 PM

How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
 
Don't Feed The @#$%^&*()_)(*&^%$ Troll!

jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry' Shein's jew aliash)! July 18th 19 01:29 PM

How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
 
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:28:13 -0700, "fake vet Afro-Eyetalian Scatboi
Colon La Edmund J. Burke" wrote:

On 7/17/2019 3:34 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:43:12 -0000 (UTC), "Arlen G. Holder"
wrote:

How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
https://i.postimg.cc/c49KfVwY/transfer01.jpg


How about a real Gernerac model number? The part and assembly numbers
on the visible nameplates don't seem to point to a particular model.

I couldn't find a model number, so how about a search by serial
number?
http://www.generac.com/service-support/product-support-lookup
http://soa.generac.com/selfhelp/media/a10b5411-0518-44f9-8553-c1b89b4f232c

Incidentally, you should consider labeling the cables, wires,
terminals, fuses, etc.

Why two transfer switches?

Got a schematic of how you wired it? If not, trace the wires and make
one.


Liebermann? Is that jewish?


What if it is some jew asshole? Are you 'anti-semitic' or
something???

[email protected] July 18th 19 01:36 PM

How the heck does a typical home transfer switch work?
 
See what trolls drag in their wake?


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