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Default How do you recycle solar panels?


How do you recycle solar panels? Without any pollution?

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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

On 4/13/19 8:56 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

How do you recycle solar panels? Without any pollution?


You send them to China.


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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

On 4/13/2019 10:48 PM, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
On 4/13/19 8:56 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

How do you recycle solar panels? Without any pollution?


You send them to China.



Then ship them back to USA? It's called economy!

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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

On 4/13/2019 10:48 PM, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
On 4/13/19 8:56 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

How do you recycle solar panels? Without any pollution?


You send them to China.



So this is the trade deal Americans really wants -- junk yards in other
continents and countries! Oh well....

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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

On 4/13/2019 10:48 PM, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
On 4/13/19 8:56 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

How do you recycle solar panels? Without any pollution?


You send them to China.



AND...

It's just throwing them away, NOT recycling those dead solar panels
without pollution!

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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

On Saturday, 13 April 2019 16:43:05 UTC+1, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 4/13/2019 10:48 PM, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
On 4/13/19 8:56 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

How do you recycle solar panels? Without any pollution?


You send them to China.



AND...

It's just throwing them away, NOT recycling those dead solar panels
without pollution!


glass, silicon & trace elements. Can it just be remelted to make black glass?
Or can they be cut up to make little junk grade panels for toys etc? Physically broken panels presumably could, though cell layout not always satisfactory.


NT
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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

You don't. Solar panels pollute in their manufacture, and they pollute in their disposal. As a life-cycle equation, it has been only over the last couple of years that the energy out has surpassed the energy in. It is government subsidies that make solar power cost-effective, and the fact that the really large solar farm have not yet approached the end of their useful lives.

Nuclear power is a matter of political will - at the most practical level, disposal of the waste is quite simple via

a) Breeder-reactors reducing spent fuel pellets, and tripling the life of any given unit of fissile material.
b) Considering that there are well over 1,000 underground test sites in Nevada, any one of which could contain very nearly all the nuclear waste at every power plant in the US and elsewhere;
c) And those same underground domes will be radioactive for the next 30,000 years or so anyway.

The issue is transport to said location. That is, political will.

Fossil Fuel plants create carbon dioxide in large amounts.

Wind Farms require acreage, which is in limited supply, but otherwise are comparatively cheap, effective and very long-lasting. Life-cycle cost-per-watt is far and away the cheapest of the lot.

Pick your poison. In terms of generating large amounts of unusable waste that cannot be recycled using present technology, Solar is the winner by a massive margin. It just hasn't gotten there yet.

Peter Wieck
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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

On Sunday, 14 April 2019 21:08:36 UTC+1, peter wieck wrote:

You don't. Solar panels pollute in their manufacture, and they pollute in their disposal.


one could always crush them & add bitumen. Or cut & toughen them to make roof slates. Hopefully better uses can be found though.

As a life-cycle equation, it has been only over the last couple of years that the energy out has surpassed the energy in. It is government subsidies that make solar power cost-effective, and the fact that the really large solar farm have not yet approached the end of their useful lives.

Nuclear power is a matter of political will - at the most practical level, disposal of the waste is quite simple via

a) Breeder-reactors reducing spent fuel pellets, and tripling the life of any given unit of fissile material.
b) Considering that there are well over 1,000 underground test sites in Nevada, any one of which could contain very nearly all the nuclear waste at every power plant in the US and elsewhere;
c) And those same underground domes will be radioactive for the next 30,000 years or so anyway.

The issue is transport to said location. That is, political will.

Fossil Fuel plants create carbon dioxide in large amounts.

Wind Farms require acreage, which is in limited supply, but otherwise are comparatively cheap, effective and very long-lasting. Life-cycle cost-per-watt is far and away the cheapest of the lot.

Pick your poison. In terms of generating large amounts of unusable waste that cannot be recycled using present technology, Solar is the winner by a massive margin. It just hasn't gotten there yet.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA



Wind farms displace zero generation as their output is too unreliable. They are a huge consumer of resources per gigawatt for nothing of significant value. The power they produce could equally be produced by the other generation that must accompany them. Financially they are losers.

Solar are only useful where connection to the grid is excessively expensive.. Give it 100 years and let's hope solar PV by then is supremely cheap & coats every roof. But there's no tech in the pipeline now that might do that.

Nuke, oil & gas are proven effective. Alts are't, hence they're still alts.
If green issues are seen as a problem, energy efficiency could go a long way. Cars are senselessly inefficient, and easy & cheap to make better on gas consumption.

Many houses likewise. Governments don't seem to understand how to get there on that one either.


NT
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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 9:57:26 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Wind farms displace zero generation as their output is too unreliable. They are a huge consumer of resources per gigawatt for nothing of significant value. The power they produce could equally be produced by the other generation that must accompany them. Financially they are losers.


Where do you get your figures, or do you just make them up as needed?

There is an Iberdrola (Italian firm) wind farm in Columbia County, PA that is well over 90% operational, shutting down only for excessively high (80 mph+) speeds. It is on a mountain ridge, and is fully operational from 8 mph to 80 mph. And that is, as it happens, a somewhat older farm. And, also, as it happens, on a major raptor flyway - addressed by keeping the tip-speed (and rotational rpm) of the turbine within the reaction time of passing birds. Newer turbine designs can accommodate higher wind speeds, and with larger blades, lower tip speeds. But, 8 mph remains about the lower limit.

There is a sea-facing farm off of Atlantic City, NJ that has been in place since 2006, with a high-90s operational record. About the same, as it happens, as the typical nuke (45 days of maintenance & fueling every two years at minimum) or fossil-fuel plant (2-5 weeks of maintenance, depending on age, each year).

Cost is about $1,500/kw installed, (as compared to about $7,000 for nuke, $4,500 for fossil, $3,000 for solar.

On-shore wind power is the cheapest form of renewable energy to install, to operate and to maintain. Think solar farms are cheap to maintain? Think again. Think dust, snow, cloudy days, even cutting the grass.

As with all these things - location, location, location.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

On Monday, 15 April 2019 18:32:53 UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 9:57:26 AM UTC-4, tabby wrote:

Wind farms displace zero generation as their output is too unreliable. They are a huge consumer of resources per gigawatt for nothing of significant value. The power they produce could equally be produced by the other generation that must accompany them. Financially they are losers.


Where do you get your figures, or do you just make them up as needed?


Gridwatch is one source

There is an Iberdrola (Italian firm) wind farm in Columbia County, PA that is well over 90% operational, shutting down only for excessively high (80 mph+) speeds. It is on a mountain ridge, and is fully operational from 8 mph to 80 mph. And that is, as it happens, a somewhat older farm. And, also, as it happens, on a major raptor flyway - addressed by keeping the tip-speed (and rotational rpm) of the turbine within the reaction time of passing birds. Newer turbine designs can accommodate higher wind speeds, and with larger blades, lower tip speeds. But, 8 mph remains about the lower limit.


and that's the problem. Too much time is spent below 8mph.

There is a sea-facing farm off of Atlantic City, NJ that has been in place since 2006, with a high-90s operational record. About the same, as it happens, as the typical nuke (45 days of maintenance & fueling every two years at minimum) or fossil-fuel plant (2-5 weeks of maintenance, depending on age, each year).

Cost is about $1,500/kw installed, (as compared to about $7,000 for nuke, $4,500 for fossil, $3,000 for solar.


Woah woah woah. Those figures may apply to nameplate capacity, but they are in no way comparable. Nukes can put out full capacity nearly 100% of the time. Wind puts out full capacity just a small percentage of the time.


On-shore wind power is the cheapest form of renewable energy to install, to operate and to maintain.


If that were true everyone would be installing them without subsidies. No government would subsidise them.


NT


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On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 1:43:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, 15 April 2019 18:32:53 UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 9:57:26 AM UTC-4, tabby wrote:

Wind farms displace zero generation as their output is too unreliable.. They are a huge consumer of resources per gigawatt for nothing of significant value. The power they produce could equally be produced by the other generation that must accompany them. Financially they are losers.


Where do you get your figures, or do you just make them up as needed?


Gridwatch is one source

There is an Iberdrola (Italian firm) wind farm in Columbia County, PA that is well over 90% operational, shutting down only for excessively high (80 mph+) speeds. It is on a mountain ridge, and is fully operational from 8 mph to 80 mph. And that is, as it happens, a somewhat older farm. And, also, as it happens, on a major raptor flyway - addressed by keeping the tip-speed (and rotational rpm) of the turbine within the reaction time of passing birds. Newer turbine designs can accommodate higher wind speeds, and with larger blades, lower tip speeds. But, 8 mph remains about the lower limit.


and that's the problem. Too much time is spent below 8mph. Not on the Iberdrola ridge. Average 'downtime' for low wind is under 4%. High winds are more of an issue in reality. And, not off Atlantic City, where the numbers are even better, day-to-day.

There is a sea-facing farm off of Atlantic City, NJ that has been in place since 2006, with a high-90s operational record. About the same, as it happens, as the typical nuke (45 days of maintenance & fueling every two years at minimum) or fossil-fuel plant (2-5 weeks of maintenance, depending on age, each year).

Cost is about $1,500/kw installed, (as compared to about $7,000 for nuke, $4,500 for fossil, $3,000 for solar.


Woah woah woah. Those figures may apply to nameplate capacity, but they are in no way comparable. Nukes can put out full capacity nearly 100% of the time. Wind puts out full capacity just a small percentage of the time.


Nukes are down, by necessity, approximately 45 days every two years. That is, no less than 6% of the time. Fossil Fuel, no less than 8% of the time. It is called "maintenance".


On-shore wind power is the cheapest form of renewable energy to install, to operate and to maintain.


If that were true everyone would be installing them without subsidies. No government would subsidise them.


a) They are, to some eyes, ugly.
b) Good locations are hard to find.
c) Cheap land, that is also a good location, is even harder to find.
d) The subsidies are much lower than solar - which, for some reason, has acquired a little-deserved cachet of being 'green'. Wait until the 10 and 20 meg farms start to wear out. That is when you will find out exactly how 'green' they are. And they will get the same treatment as so-called "mine remediation" got.

https://windexchange.energy.gov/maps-data/107 The Iberdrola farm is on the dark brown spot between Allentown and Williamsport.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

W dniu 2019-04-13 o*15:56, Mr. Man-wai Chang pisze:

How do you recycle solar panels? Without any pollution?


You spray them into the atmosphere

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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

On Monday, 15 April 2019 19:15:52 UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 1:43:35 PM UTC-4, tabby wrote:
On Monday, 15 April 2019 18:32:53 UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 9:57:26 AM UTC-4, tabby wrote:


Wind farms displace zero generation as their output is too unreliable. They are a huge consumer of resources per gigawatt for nothing of significant value. The power they produce could equally be produced by the other generation that must accompany them. Financially they are losers.

Where do you get your figures, or do you just make them up as needed?


Gridwatch is one source

There is an Iberdrola (Italian firm) wind farm in Columbia County, PA that is well over 90% operational, shutting down only for excessively high (80 mph+) speeds. It is on a mountain ridge, and is fully operational from 8 mph to 80 mph. And that is, as it happens, a somewhat older farm. And, also, as it happens, on a major raptor flyway - addressed by keeping the tip-speed (and rotational rpm) of the turbine within the reaction time of passing birds. Newer turbine designs can accommodate higher wind speeds, and with larger blades, lower tip speeds. But, 8 mph remains about the lower limit.


and that's the problem. Too much time is spent below 8mph. Not on the Iberdrola ridge. Average 'downtime' for low wind is under 4%. High winds are more of an issue in reality. And, not off Atlantic City, where the numbers are even better, day-to-day.

There is a sea-facing farm off of Atlantic City, NJ that has been in place since 2006, with a high-90s operational record. About the same, as it happens, as the typical nuke (45 days of maintenance & fueling every two years at minimum) or fossil-fuel plant (2-5 weeks of maintenance, depending on age, each year).

Cost is about $1,500/kw installed, (as compared to about $7,000 for nuke, $4,500 for fossil, $3,000 for solar.


Woah woah woah. Those figures may apply to nameplate capacity, but they are in no way comparable. Nukes can put out full capacity nearly 100% of the time. Wind puts out full capacity just a small percentage of the time.


Nukes are down, by necessity, approximately 45 days every two years. That is, no less than 6% of the time. Fossil Fuel, no less than 8% of the time. It is called "maintenance".


a) that's an enormous improvement on wind turbines
b) it's planned downtime, so there's always enough capacity up & running.
c) Turbines, even when working, usually don't put out their nameplate capacity so their capacity is partially offline most of the time.


On-shore wind power is the cheapest form of renewable energy to install, to operate and to maintain.


If that were true everyone would be installing them without subsidies. No government would subsidise them.


a) They are, to some eyes, ugly.
b) Good locations are hard to find.
c) Cheap land, that is also a good location, is even harder to find.
d) The subsidies are much lower than solar - which, for some reason, has acquired a little-deserved cachet of being 'green'. Wait until the 10 and 20 meg farms start to wear out. That is when you will find out exactly how 'green' they are. And they will get the same treatment as so-called "mine remediation" got.


ie they're subsidised. And it's no secret why.


NT
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On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 9:57:26 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sunday, 14 April 2019 21:08:36 UTC+1, peter wieck wrote:

You don't. Solar panels pollute in their manufacture, and they pollute in their disposal.


one could always crush them & add bitumen. Or cut & toughen them to make roof slates. Hopefully better uses can be found though.

As a life-cycle equation, it has been only over the last couple of years that the energy out has surpassed the energy in. It is government subsidies that make solar power cost-effective, and the fact that the really large solar farm have not yet approached the end of their useful lives.

Nuclear power is a matter of political will - at the most practical level, disposal of the waste is quite simple via

a) Breeder-reactors reducing spent fuel pellets, and tripling the life of any given unit of fissile material.
b) Considering that there are well over 1,000 underground test sites in Nevada, any one of which could contain very nearly all the nuclear waste at every power plant in the US and elsewhere;
c) And those same underground domes will be radioactive for the next 30,000 years or so anyway.

The issue is transport to said location. That is, political will.

Fossil Fuel plants create carbon dioxide in large amounts.

Wind Farms require acreage, which is in limited supply, but otherwise are comparatively cheap, effective and very long-lasting. Life-cycle cost-per-watt is far and away the cheapest of the lot.

Pick your poison. In terms of generating large amounts of unusable waste that cannot be recycled using present technology, Solar is the winner by a massive margin. It just hasn't gotten there yet.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA



Wind farms displace zero generation as their output is too unreliable. They are a huge consumer of resources per gigawatt for nothing of significant value. The power they produce could equally be produced by the other generation that must accompany them. Financially they are losers.

Solar are only useful where connection to the grid is excessively expensive. Give it 100 years and let's hope solar PV by then is supremely cheap & coats every roof. But there's no tech in the pipeline now that might do that.

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On Monday, 15 April 2019 21:55:21 UTC+1, Michael Terrell wrote:

Have any of you lived really close to a nuclear power plant? There was a 20MW facility across the street from my barracks at Ft. Greely, Alaska. It was supposed to be either the first, or one of the first that was tied into a power grid.

It had no cooling towers. Instead, they pumped the used cooling water back into the ground, less than 500 feet from the wells that supplied our drinking water.

People who lived and worked there are reporting Thyroid cancer. It was shut down when I arrived. They had gone back to using diesil powered generators, because the experimental facility was so unreliable. The control room was filled with concrete, to seal it off after it was decommissioned.


Sounds like an unusual plant. Every generation method causes deaths, nukes have as good a record as any other.


NT


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On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 8:43:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, 15 April 2019 21:55:21 UTC+1, Michael Terrell wrote:

Have any of you lived really close to a nuclear power plant? There was a 20MW facility across the street from my barracks at Ft. Greely, Alaska. It was supposed to be either the first, or one of the first that was tied into a power grid.

It had no cooling towers. Instead, they pumped the used cooling water back into the ground, less than 500 feet from the wells that supplied our drinking water.

People who lived and worked there are reporting Thyroid cancer. It was shut down when I arrived. They had gone back to using diesil powered generators, because the experimental facility was so unreliable. The control room was filled with concrete, to seal it off after it was decommissioned.


Sounds like an unusual plant. Every generation method causes deaths, nukes have as good a record as any other.


NT


It was one of the first that was built. and it was part of a military experiment to see how a nuclear power plant would preform in the -40F and lower winter temperatures. It was still in the early days of designing these facilities. There is a brief description on this web page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Greely,_Alaska
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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

On 4/16/2019 2:54 AM, Filip454 wrote:
W dniu 2019-04-13 o*15:56, Mr. Man-wai Chang pisze:

How do you recycle solar panels? Without any pollution?


You spray them into the atmosphere



Send them all to the Sun using Falcon Heavy?

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On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 4:55:21 PM UTC-4, Michael Terrell wrote:


Have any of you lived really close to a nuclear power plant? There was a 20MW facility across the street from my barracks at Ft. Greely, Alaska. It was supposed to be either the first, or one of the first that was tied into a power grid.

It had no cooling towers. Instead, they pumped the used cooling water back into the ground, less than 500 feet from the wells that supplied our drinking water.

People who lived and worked there are reporting Thyroid cancer. It was shut down when I arrived. They had gone back to using diesil powered generators, because the experimental facility was so unreliable. The control room was filled with concrete, to seal it off after it was decommissioned.


We are in the 10-mile radius of Berwick Nuclear at our summer house - when the wind is blowing in the right direction we see the plume from the cooling towers. And when they test the sirens, we do sit up and take notice.

We are about 35 miles from Limerick at home.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

On 4/13/2019 6:56 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

How do you recycle solar panels? Without any pollution?


You post them as free on Craigslist or freecycle, and they go away in
minutes.

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On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 11:00:38 PM UTC-4, Bob F wrote:
On 4/13/2019 6:56 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

How do you recycle solar panels? Without any pollution?


You post them as free on Craigslist or freecycle, and they go away in
minutes.


A perfect definition of "Elsewhere Pollution".

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

On 4/17/2019 11:00 AM, Bob F wrote:
On 4/13/2019 6:56 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

How do you recycle solar panels? Without any pollution?


You post them as free on Craigslist or freecycle, and they go away in
minutes.



Do you need the influence of US Army, US Navy and US Air Force to push
them into other countries?

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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

On Wednesday, 17 April 2019 13:00:55 UTC+1, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 4/17/2019 11:00 AM, Bob F wrote:
On 4/13/2019 6:56 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

How do you recycle solar panels? Without any pollution?


You post them as free on Craigslist or freecycle, and they go away in
minutes.



Do you need the influence of US Army, US Navy and US Air Force to push
them into other countries?


You don't want to get paid to accept mixed panels, some still working?
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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

On 4/17/2019 8:00 PM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 4/17/2019 11:00 AM, Bob F wrote:
On 4/13/2019 6:56 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

How do you recycle solar panels? Without any pollution?


You post them as free on Craigslist or freecycle, and they go away in
minutes.



Do you need the influence of US Army, US Navy and US Air Force to push
them into other countries?



Maybe non-recyclable junk and rubbish would soon trigger World War III!
No kidding, Your Honor!


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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 10:27:12 AM UTC-4, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:


Maybe non-recyclable junk and rubbish would soon trigger World War III!
No kidding, Your Honor!



No, at this point, there are still those who are willing to pay for this junk and rubbish. Or accept payment to receive it. Either way, the real impact of the need to recycle solar cells will not hit for another 15 years, and then ramp up to massive levels within the next 35 years.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

On 4/15/2019 4:08 AM, peter wieck wrote:
You don't. Solar panels pollute in their manufacture, and they pollute in their disposal. As a life-cycle equation, it has been only over the last couple of years that the energy out has surpassed the energy in. It is government subsidies that make solar power cost-effective, and the fact that the really large solar farm have not yet approached the end of their useful lives.
.... more ...
Fossil Fuel plants create carbon dioxide in large amounts.

Wind Farms require acreage, which is in limited supply, but otherwise are comparatively cheap, effective and very long-lasting. Life-cycle cost-per-watt is far and away the cheapest of the lot.

Pick your poison. In terms of generating large amounts of unusable waste that cannot be recycled using present technology, Solar is the winner by a massive margin. It just hasn't gotten there yet.



Thank you, Your Honor!

Energy must also be reserved to repair and build the power-generation
facilities, be it solar panels or wind farms. All these facilities need
factories to produce, and factories themselves need energy.

I am wondering how all those big solar-panel farms process dead panels
without polluting their underground water ...

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Default pollution: solar panels vs plastic

You worry far too much.

1,000,000 years from now, either the problems will be solved, or they will not. But it will make no difference to any of us. Species come and go with relentless regularity - and humans are only one of many tens of thousands of species. Eventually, humans will go. Full stop.

Peter Wieck
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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

W dniu 2019-04-17 o*05:00, Bob F pisze:
On 4/13/2019 6:56 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

How do you recycle solar panels? Without any pollution?


You post them as free on Craigslist or freecycle, and they go away in
minutes.


Kek'd hard.

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Default How do you recycle solar panels?

On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 1:40:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 4:55:21 PM UTC-4, Michael Terrell wrote:


Have any of you lived really close to a nuclear power plant? There was a 20MW facility across the street from my barracks at Ft. Greely, Alaska. It was supposed to be either the first, or one of the first that was tied into a power grid.

It had no cooling towers. Instead, they pumped the used cooling water back into the ground, less than 500 feet from the wells that supplied our drinking water.

People who lived and worked there are reporting Thyroid cancer. It was shut down when I arrived. They had gone back to using diesil powered generators, because the experimental facility was so unreliable. The control room was filled with concrete, to seal it off after it was decommissioned.


We are in the 10-mile radius of Berwick Nuclear at our summer house - when the wind is blowing in the right direction we see the plume from the cooling towers. And when they test the sirens, we do sit up and take notice.

We are about 35 miles from Limerick at home.



Please explain to all of us how that compares with being one city block from a early prototype reactor that you could walk to within 100 feet? Are the people in those areas experience high numbers of cancers, due to contaminated drinking water? Are you close enough to be affected by radioactive leaks? Would you want to live and work in buildings that were heated with radioactive steam, caused by leaking pipes in the reactor?

Here is a PDF about the history of the SM-1A reactor at Greely. It was a prototype that was assembled at that base because the local population off base was ~400 people. On top of this, the area was used to test chemical and biological weapons. Observe the dates in that report. I was there in '73 & '74.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...d_UR042oPubDW2

I ended up there after testing out of a three year EE and Broadcast Engineering school. That was much further than 200 miles from my home, and at one time it was part of Russia.

Of course, you lefties look down on those of us who willingly serve or who have served in our Military. Serving in Alaska was considered overseas duty, BTW.
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