Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Old February 12th 19, 05:39 PM posted to sci.electronics.repair,sci.electronics.design
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Default 9v Batteries

Want less expensive but reliable 9V, AA and AAA batteries.

Cannot use so called "9V" Li batteries.

In some cases where it will work (physical fit-wise), I use a AA battery
pack carrier with the 9V snaps and get very long life battery usage.


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Old February 12th 19, 07:30 PM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default 9v Batteries

OK - I will state the obvious again.

a) ALL batteries leak to some extent. Irrespective of brand or use.
b) What is important is what are the options WHEN (not IF) they leak.
c) A manufacturer which will stand behind their product and make the user whole is very nearly infinitely better than one that will not.
d) Let that distinction be the driver of whatever brand is chosen.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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Old February 12th 19, 07:54 PM posted to sci.electronics.repair,sci.electronics.design
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Default 9v Batteries

On a sunny day (Tue, 12 Feb 2019 09:34:22 -0800) it happened OGEE
wrote in :

Never had a serious problem with 9V batteries.

It is the AA and AAA DURACELL and KIRKLAND batteries that leak big time.


Same here, duracell leaked and destroyed my bike light,
never used KIRKLAND.

Still looking for reliable AA and AAA.


I use Eneloop.
No self-discharge.
Even in this mouse... eneloop AA.

Where I need 2 AAA I use 3V lifepo4 AAA and a dummy (short) AAA battery,
or 3V liion and short the other one.

The lifepo4 AAA already held out for more than a year in a wireless keyboard.
Those do not catch fire,
but be careful with 3V liion, when full it is a bit more volts
than 2 x 1.5 (4.2 max), and those CAN catch fire.
If the app has a bit bad caps....

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Old February 12th 19, 10:18 PM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default 9v Batteries

On Monday, February 11, 2019 at 9:58:01 PM UTC-8, Mike wrote:


I took the bad one apart. Turned out to be a balance problem and the
battery management shut it down. Balanced the cells and now it has been
working fine since.

I didn't buy the charger. I just charged 'em at low current to 8.2V.


I just had a 9v EBL commit suicide in an old Fluke thermometer that has no low power shutoff. zero volts battery now at the terminals.

Took the battery apart. Both 702335 cells have 3.2 VDC and are wired in series... how would you "balance" that?
Positive side is connected straight to the connector. Negative side I can follow to an 8pin IC at pins (2,3) whereas opposite pins (6,7) are connected to where the power needs to go.
A wee little jumper perhaps?
The IC has no markings I can see... don't even know where number one pin is.
Measured ohms between the input and output pins and wouldn't you know it now it decides to conduct and I get voltage at the battery terminals. Darn.
THe question was going to be: how stupid / dangerous would installing a jumper be?

Thanks anyways
Fritz
believer in fixing by posting questions
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Old February 12th 19, 11:21 PM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default 9v Batteries

On 2/12/2019 2:18 PM, malua mada! wrote:
On Monday, February 11, 2019 at 9:58:01 PM UTC-8, Mike wrote:


I took the bad one apart. Turned out to be a balance problem and the
battery management shut it down. Balanced the cells and now it has been
working fine since.

I didn't buy the charger. I just charged 'em at low current to 8.2V.


I just had a 9v EBL commit suicide in an old Fluke thermometer that has no low power shutoff. zero volts battery now at the terminals.

Took the battery apart. Both 702335 cells have 3.2 VDC and are wired in series... how would you "balance" that?
Positive side is connected straight to the connector. Negative side I can follow to an 8pin IC at pins (2,3) whereas opposite pins (6,7) are connected to where the power needs to go.
A wee little jumper perhaps?
The IC has no markings I can see... don't even know where number one pin is.
Measured ohms between the input and output pins and wouldn't you know it now it decides to conduct and I get voltage at the battery terminals. Darn.
THe question was going to be: how stupid / dangerous would installing a jumper be?

The voltage measured zero because the BMS shut it off.
The ohm meter put enough volts on the BMS to get it to turn back on for
charging.

I can't think of any place a jumper will be useful.
Don't even think about shorting the BMS chip.
The cells are protected against under/over voltage. You need all that.
My limited experience with this battery is that it shuts off charge
when either cell reaches 4.2V.
I prefer to quit before that, around 4-4.1V/cell

Cells are probably matched, but still have significant differences at very
low voltages below the BMS cutoff. It's easy to get some imbalance down
there.
I'd charge it up to 3.8V/cell or so and then check balance and correct if
necessary before proceeding with a full charge.

Thanks anyways
Fritz
believer in fixing by posting questions

This is what's inside mine.

https://imgur.com/pAjauT7

I poked a tiny hole in the side of the package so I could poke a probe in
and access the point where two batteries connect in series.
If I ever need it again, I can use that and the two 9V terminals
to charge each cell individually to 4V. I'm hoping that the
battery will shutdown output at a voltage higher than the voltage
that prevents charging. Not had to test that yet.

Maintaining balance is a proactive activity.
It's been three years. Probably should open up all the meters
and recharge 'em.


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Old February 13th 19, 03:26 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default 9v Batteries

On Tuesday, February 12, 2019 at 3:21:32 PM UTC-8, Mike wrote:


I can't think of any place a jumper will be useful.
Don't even think about shorting the BMS chip.


blush... isn't a bare metal battery better than a dead one?

The cells are protected against under/over voltage. You need all that.
My limited experience with this battery is that it shuts off charge
when either cell reaches 4.2V.
I prefer to quit before that, around 4-4.1V/cell


I have a little 9V charger, blissfully ignorant of balancing acts.


https://imgur.com/pAjauT7

I poked a tiny hole in the side of the package so I could poke a probe in
and access the point where two batteries connect in series.


Mine looks the same. I totally missed the tap to the series connection there.

If I ever need it again, I can use that and the two 9V terminals
to charge each cell individually to 4V. I'm hoping that the
battery will shutdown output at a voltage higher than the voltage
that prevents charging. Not had to test that yet.

Maintaining balance is a proactive activity.

(swaying precariously) tisn't what happy consumers sposed to have to do?

It's been three years. Probably should open up all the meters
and recharge 'em.


amen! and get rid of the devices that just stay on to the last millivolt.
Meanwhile, I appreciate the knowledge that allows me to wake these (still costly) batteries from their self induced coma... wish it were easier.

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Old February 13th 19, 04:53 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default 9v Batteries

On 2/12/2019 7:26 PM, malua mada! wrote:
On Tuesday, February 12, 2019 at 3:21:32 PM UTC-8, Mike wrote:


I can't think of any place a jumper will be useful.
Don't even think about shorting the BMS chip.


blush... isn't a bare metal battery better than a dead one?


No, it isn't. Lithium batteries need a lot of care.

The cells are protected against under/over voltage. You need all that.
My limited experience with this battery is that it shuts off charge
when either cell reaches 4.2V.
I prefer to quit before that, around 4-4.1V/cell


I have a little 9V charger, blissfully ignorant of balancing acts.

"Little charger" is too vague to be helpful.
If it's a little charger designed to charge these EBL batteries,
you're good to go. If it ain't, don't use it.

The battery protection circuit seems to be reasonably good at shutting
off the charge at 8.4V, but that's the protection circuit, not normal
operation.


https://imgur.com/pAjauT7

I poked a tiny hole in the side of the package so I could poke a probe in
and access the point where two batteries connect in series.


Mine looks the same. I totally missed the tap to the series connection there.

If I ever need it again, I can use that and the two 9V terminals
to charge each cell individually to 4V. I'm hoping that the
battery will shutdown output at a voltage higher than the voltage
that prevents charging. Not had to test that yet.

Maintaining balance is a proactive activity.

(swaying precariously) tisn't what happy consumers sposed to have to do?

No, it's not. But that's the price we pay for the other benefits of the
technology.
If you keep the battery voltage within the shutdown limits, I expect it
works pretty well.
It's when you go beyond the safe limits that cell differences start
to manifest more visibly as imbalance.

It's been three years. Probably should open up all the meters
and recharge 'em.


amen! and get rid of the devices that just stay on to the last millivolt.
Meanwhile, I appreciate the knowledge that allows me to wake these (still costly) batteries from their self induced coma... wish it were easier.

It's not rocket science. Set your bench supply to 4.0V. Put a 1K
resistor in series with it and charge one cell at a time. When the
voltage across the resistor gets to about zero, do the other one.
I typically let the battery sit for a day after and check the balance again.
Tweak it till they're within a few millivolts after a rest.
That's overkill, but why not...

Note that I did NOT say take any random usb 5V charger and use it.
MUST stay below 4.2V.
If you don't have a way to generate 4ish volts, throw the batteries away.

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Old February 13th 19, 06:12 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default 9v Batteries

On Tuesday, February 12, 2019 at 8:53:54 PM UTC-8, Mike wrote:

I have a little 9V charger, blissfully ignorant of balancing acts.

"Little charger" is too vague to be helpful.
If it's a little charger designed to charge these EBL batteries,
you're good to go. If it ain't, don't use it.


bonai 9V 80 mA (x1) 50 mA (x2) charger. brought the patient up to 7.68 volts. which is what one has to accept for 9V these days? or anyhow below 8.4V from what you write.




amen! and get rid of the devices that just stay on to the last millivolt.
Meanwhile, I appreciate the knowledge that allows me to wake these (still costly) batteries from their self induced coma... wish it were easier.

It's not rocket science. Set your bench supply to 4.0V. Put a 1K
resistor in series with it and charge one cell at a time. When the
voltage across the resistor gets to about zero, do the other one.
I typically let the battery sit for a day after and check the balance again.
Tweak it till they're within a few millivolts after a rest.
That's overkill, but why not...

Note that I did NOT say take any random usb 5V charger and use it.
MUST stay below 4.2V.
If you don't have a way to generate 4ish volts, throw the batteries away.


nah there's a LM317 waiting to be tickled...

BTW I used anvil type pruning shears to open the battery case. Good force, good control.
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Old February 13th 19, 08:48 PM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default 9v Batteries

On 2/12/2019 10:12 PM, malua mada! wrote:
On Tuesday, February 12, 2019 at 8:53:54 PM UTC-8, Mike wrote:

I have a little 9V charger, blissfully ignorant of balancing acts.

"Little charger" is too vague to be helpful.
If it's a little charger designed to charge these EBL batteries,
you're good to go. If it ain't, don't use it.


bonai 9V 80 mA (x1) 50 mA (x2) charger. brought the patient up to 7.68 volts. which is what one has to accept for 9V these days? or anyhow below 8.4V from what you write.

If you look here
https://www.amazon.com/EBL-Rechargea.../dp/B079G37Y61

you will see
Battery: 6F22 9V 600mAh rechargeable li-ion batteries, note that all 9v
li-ion batteries' full voltage is 8.4V

You have the battery apart. What's the voltage on each individual cell?
If it's not the same, make it so.


amen! and get rid of the devices that just stay on to the last millivolt.
Meanwhile, I appreciate the knowledge that allows me to wake these (still costly) batteries from their self induced coma... wish it were easier.

It's not rocket science. Set your bench supply to 4.0V. Put a 1K
resistor in series with it and charge one cell at a time. When the
voltage across the resistor gets to about zero, do the other one.
I typically let the battery sit for a day after and check the balance again.
Tweak it till they're within a few millivolts after a rest.
That's overkill, but why not...

Note that I did NOT say take any random usb 5V charger and use it.
MUST stay below 4.2V.
If you don't have a way to generate 4ish volts, throw the batteries away.


nah there's a LM317 waiting to be tickled...

BTW I used anvil type pruning shears to open the battery case. Good force, good control.


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Old February 14th 19, 05:01 AM posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Default 9v Batteries

On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 12:48:23 PM UTC-8, Mike wrote:
You have the battery apart. What's the voltage on each individual cell?
If it's not the same, make it so.


3.823 3.826 :-)





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