In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand. In the bathroom when I
turn off the hair clippers I use for beard trimming the GFCI almost
always trips. But only when the clippers are being turned off.
In the basement we have an twenty year old washing machine that we
kept to use in case the upstairs new washer needed repair, which has
ben more than once. When the washer changes cycles it will randomely
trip the GFCI. Like the upstairs GFCI it only happens when the load is
removed from the GFCI. For example, the water valve solenoids, when
switched off by the washer, will cause the GFCI to trip. Or when the
washer motor is turned off when it changes speed.
Do I need to buy better GFCI receptacles? Or is this just because
the things are generally so sensitive to arcing when a contact opens
that any brand will show the same behavior/
Thanks,
Eric

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 2:22:39 PM UTC-4, wrote:
In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand.

GFCI devices have a service life of about ten (10) years in a dry location, and anywhere from 2-5 years in a damp location. In many cases, their effectiveness as a ground-fault devices is long-gone, whereas they will still function (somewhat) as a normal breaker. There are exceptions - see monthly test below.

Yes, DO test them every month as suggested.
YES, DO replace them IMMEDIATELY the moment they display any sort of wonkiness.

FULL STOP.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 2:22:39 PM UTC-4, wrote:
In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand.

GFCI devices have a service life of about ten (10) years in a dry location, and anywhere from 2-5 years in a damp location. In many cases, their effectiveness as a ground-fault devices is long-gone, whereas they will still function (somewhat) as a normal breaker. There are exceptions - see monthly test below.

Yes, DO test them every month as suggested.
YES, DO replace them IMMEDIATELY the moment they display any sort of wonkiness.

FULL STOP.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
Thanks Peter,
I do test most of the GFCI receptacles monthly. They always pass. So
I'll replace the two and see what happens.
Eric

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 16:46:17 -0700, wrote:

I do test most of the GFCI receptacles monthly. They always pass. So
I'll replace the two and see what happens.

This explains what might be happening and how to troubleshoot it:
https://www.fluke.com/en-au/learn/blog/grounding/chasing-ghost-trips-in-gfci-protected-circuits
https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/clamp-meters/fluke-369-fc
https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/clamp-meters/fluke-368-fc

Duz the house have aluminum wiring? I've seen similar problems caused
by aluminum wiring at a friends house:
https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=199901
We traced the problem down to loose screws on the wall outlets and GFI
receptacles. Tightening everything down make the false trips
disappear for about 6 months, when they came back from the dead
initially on anything that drew high current. The owner then
tightened down the screws again, which again fixed the problem for a
few months. I think you can see where this is going. The aluminum
wires were being squashed by the brass screw and cold flowing until
flat with the added bonus of some galvanic corrosion in the bath and
laundry rooms. In the end, he installed copper wire pigtails and
anti-oxidation goop on all the outlets, which I think finally solved
the problem:
https://ask-the-electrician.com/gfci-outlets-and-aluminum-wire/
https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/291/whats-the-best-way-of-replacing-a-plug-or-switch-in-a-house-with-aluminum-wirin




--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Don't use them on washing machines, dryers or refrigerators.

Whatever the code says, if your house was built 10 years ago then whatever the code said then goes, or at least you can make go.

If it has a 3 prong plug and you have a properly grounded outlet you don't need it. You are not required to update except in certain cases. Just make sure the ground connections are tight.

May not quite be code but it solves the problem once and for all, and as long as those grounds are good, you will not die. Make SURE.

I read a bit and it does appear there is a little wiggle room on it, and then they say a whole 60 people died from electrical shocks last year. And then so many by fires, many more in fact. A GFCI does not protect against fires, only ground faults.

After you put regular outlets in for your 3 prong grounded appliances that have motors, do nothing. However I am not so sure about if you use those clippers in front of a sink. Too many other things can be plugged in there and the clippers are not usually 3 prong grounded, that one might have to say and either put up with it or try a newer GFCI. In that case I DO NOT recommend offing the GFCI. In fact not at all, it will solve the problem though.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 18:08:06 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Don't use them on washing machines, dryers or refrigerators.

"Does Your Washing Machine Require GFCI Protection"
https://ask-the-electrician.com/does-your-washing-machine-require-gfci-protection/
The washing machine outlet itself does not require a GFCI
outlet, however any outlet within 6 feet of the outside
edge of the sink in laundry rooms require that it be GFCI
protected.

More detail:
"Do washing machines require GFCI protection?"
https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2012/05/16/do-washing-machines-require-gfci-protection/


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

In article ,
says...

Don't use them on washing machines, dryers or refrigerators.




Ground faults are not used on things that must run such as refrigerators
and freezers. If they trip for some reason you can loose all your
stored food. I think there is a code that covers that.

On Monday, 23 July 2018 19:22:39 UTC+1, wrote:

In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand. In the bathroom when I
turn off the hair clippers I use for beard trimming the GFCI almost
always trips. But only when the clippers are being turned off.
In the basement we have an twenty year old washing machine that we
kept to use in case the upstairs new washer needed repair, which has
ben more than once. When the washer changes cycles it will randomely
trip the GFCI. Like the upstairs GFCI it only happens when the load is
removed from the GFCI. For example, the water valve solenoids, when
switched off by the washer, will cause the GFCI to trip. Or when the
washer motor is turned off when it changes speed.
Do I need to buy better GFCI receptacles? Or is this just because
the things are generally so sensitive to arcing when a contact opens
that any brand will show the same behavior/
Thanks,
Eric

We had a thread on this very recently in sed. GFCIs are unbalanced at relatively high frequencies, the result being they tend to trip on arcing. Of course that doesn't rule out your GFCIs being faulty or substandard, or your washing machine having N-E leakage.


NT

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 3:09:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 2:22:39 PM UTC-4, wrote:
In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand.

GFCI devices have a service life of about ten (10) years in a dry location, and anywhere from 2-5 years in a damp location. In many cases, their effectiveness as a ground-fault devices is long-gone, whereas they will still function (somewhat) as a normal breaker. There are exceptions - see monthly test below.

Yes, DO test them every month as suggested.
YES, DO replace them IMMEDIATELY the moment they display any sort of wonkiness.

Ha ha, 'wonkiness'.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 18:05:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 16:46:17 -0700, wrote:

I do test most of the GFCI receptacles monthly. They always pass. So
I'll replace the two and see what happens.

This explains what might be happening and how to troubleshoot it:
https://www.fluke.com/en-au/learn/blog/grounding/chasing-ghost-trips-in-gfci-protected-circuits
https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/clamp-meters/fluke-369-fc
https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/clamp-meters/fluke-368-fc

Duz the house have aluminum wiring? I've seen similar problems caused
by aluminum wiring at a friends house:
https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=199901
We traced the problem down to loose screws on the wall outlets and GFI
receptacles. Tightening everything down make the false trips
disappear for about 6 months, when they came back from the dead
initially on anything that drew high current. The owner then
tightened down the screws again, which again fixed the problem for a
few months. I think you can see where this is going. The aluminum
wires were being squashed by the brass screw and cold flowing until
flat with the added bonus of some galvanic corrosion in the bath and
laundry rooms. In the end, he installed copper wire pigtails and
anti-oxidation goop on all the outlets, which I think finally solved
the problem:
https://ask-the-electrician.com/gfci-outlets-and-aluminum-wire/
https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/291/whats-the-best-way-of-replacing-a-plug-or-switch-in-a-house-with-aluminum-wirin
Thanks for the links Jeff. The house is only about ten years old and
was built for us and we are the only people who have ever lived in the
house. So I know the history of the house which helps. I'll check out
those links today.
Eric

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 18:08:06 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Don't use them on washing machines, dryers or refrigerators.

Whatever the code says, if your house was built 10 years ago then whatever the code said then goes, or at least you can make go.

If it has a 3 prong plug and you have a properly grounded outlet you don't need it. You are not required to update except in certain cases. Just make sure the ground connections are tight.

May not quite be code but it solves the problem once and for all, and as long as those grounds are good, you will not die. Make SURE.

I read a bit and it does appear there is a little wiggle room on it, and then they say a whole 60 people died from electrical shocks last year. And then so many by fires, many more in fact. A GFCI does not protect against fires, only ground faults.

After you put regular outlets in for your 3 prong grounded appliances that have motors, do nothing. However I am not so sure about if you use those clippers in front of a sink. Too many other things can be plugged in there and the clippers are not usually 3 prong grounded, that one might have to say and either put up with it or try a newer GFCI. In that case I DO NOT recommend offing the GFCI. In fact not at all, it will solve the problem though.
The clippers are used in the bathroom so I will need to get that GFCI
sorted out. Even if it means buying rechargeable clippers. The
basement GFCI is also near a sink. But even if I put in another non
GFCI receptacle away from the sink it will need to be connected to the
same wires that feed the GFCI. I wonder if the wiring in the new
receptacle before the GFCI will prevent tripping? In any case I am
going to change out my old GFCIs in at least two places.
Eric

"The basement GFCI is also near a sink."

Between the washer hoses and cord you might be able get 6 feet away. Not so sure that would satisfy code because there is still water in the washer. However, do you need a GFCI where there might be a bucket of water ? What about if your garden hose is long enough and you decide to use it to wash the basement floor ?

At least that is some kind of rationale, if you do that make SURE that ground wire is tight.

Not so in the bathroom. Perhaps one of those strips audiophiles use to keep RF out of their stereos. The filtering should work both ways. If a new GFCI there doesn't help that may be your only solution.

You said you kept an old washing machine around for when the new one breaks ? I suggest you never get rid of it. In this area water is pretty cheap and I have no use for a washing machine with a microprocessor and inferior relays and valves, and probably plastic parts that should not be plastic. In other areas water is much more expensive and it may be worth it for them.

One thing about older dryers - on ours the door is pretty stout and opens down. That means you can just throw the clothes over, walk over and scoop them in a couple of times. If it opens to the side you have to get a basket, probably the same one your dirty clothes came in, put the WET clothes in there which is when they'll pick up the maximum dirt, carry the basket, possibly around the door if it opens the wrong way for the layout of your basement, and then put in only how much fits in your hand scoop by scoop.

OK - let's cut to the chase:

GFCI devices are designed to save lives under specific conditions. Under those same conditions, they can be inconvenient. That is a given.

What they do: They detect current flowing from the hot line, and not returning via the neutral line. If they detect this condition of more than a very, very few MA, they trip. Meaning that they WILL NOT protect anyone deliberately inserting themselves into a circuit. This despite sincere and touching wishes otherwise.

Some devices will trip a GFCI pretty much most of the time. However, that this happens DOES NOT make the GFCI device faulty. It makes the device faulty. What the device is doing is getting current from the hot side and sending it somewhere else but the neutral.

One should not (in some cases, cannot) cascade GFCI devices. Often this will cause false-trips, especially with motors.

A GFCI is also an ultra-fast circuit breaker. Meaning that older motors that commonly will not trip a regular breaker will often trip a GFCI, yet not be defective - this due to the momentary turn-on surge.

If a properly installed, properly functioning GFCI device is tripping - it is for a reason. As it is a life-safety device, the point of all this is not to defeat it, but to correct the reason for the tripping.

Any other response is stupid.
Any other advice is blather.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

On 7/24/18 12:32 PM, wrote:
If a properly installed, properly functioning GFCI device
is tripping - it is for a reason. As it is a life-safety
device, the point of all this is not to defeat it, but to
correct the reason for the tripping.

Any other response is stupid.
Any other advice is blather.

And yet, we have people posting here, that consistently
prove you can't fix stupid.



--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 10:32:20 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

OK - let's cut to the chase:

GFCI devices are designed to save lives under specific conditions. Under those same conditions, they can be inconvenient. That is a given.

What they do: They detect current flowing from the hot line, and not returning via the neutral line. If they detect this condition of more than a very, very few MA, they trip. Meaning that they WILL NOT protect anyone deliberately inserting themselves into a circuit. This despite sincere and touching wishes otherwise.

Some devices will trip a GFCI pretty much most of the time. However, that this happens DOES NOT make the GFCI device faulty. It makes the device faulty. What the device is doing is getting current from the hot side and sending it somewhere else but the neutral.

One should not (in some cases, cannot) cascade GFCI devices. Often this will cause false-trips, especially with motors.

A GFCI is also an ultra-fast circuit breaker. Meaning that older motors that commonly will not trip a regular breaker will often trip a GFCI, yet not be defective - this due to the momentary turn-on surge.

If a properly installed, properly functioning GFCI device is tripping - it is for a reason. As it is a life-safety device, the point of all this is not to defeat it, but to correct the reason for the tripping.

Any other response is stupid.
Any other advice is blather.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
The clipper is a double insulated device and so only has two wires in
the cord. Where does the current go? It doesn't matter which way the
cord is plugged. It is not a polarized plug so I have tried both ways.
Still, almost always when the clipper is turned off the GFCI trips.
Could this be from back EMF from the motor winding? A power surge when
the magnetic field collapses? I have looked some online for the answer
and haven't found it yet.
Thanks,
Eric

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 2:01:42 PM UTC-4, wrote:
A power surge when
the magnetic field collapses?

Very likely this. Old-style electric clippers do not use motors per-se (things that spin around). They use what is, effectively, a buzzer that switches the electric field around a magnet pulling it back and forth. When the field collapses, the magnet induces feedback, and will trip some GFCI devices..

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sour... 542641709432

Just for giggles, try turning over the plug in the receptacle (unless it is polarized). It may be that the pulse is going down the neutral line and is thereby seen as spurious by the GFCI.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

In article ,
wrote:

The clipper is a double insulated device and so only has two wires in
the cord. Where does the current go? It doesn't matter which way the
cord is plugged. It is not a polarized plug so I have tried both ways.
Still, almost always when the clipper is turned off the GFCI trips.
Could this be from back EMF from the motor winding? A power surge when
the magnetic field collapses? I have looked some online for the answer
and haven't found it yet.

Here's the explanation I read, quite some time ago. It still makes
sense to me.

A GFCI tries to accurately measure the imbalance in the current flow
between the hot and neutral wires, and trip the breaker if a
significant imbalance appears. The imbalance would (goes the
thinking) exist if and only if there's a current leak from hot, to
ground (bypassing the neutral return).

GFCI balance sensors are not perfect. They usually consist of
something like a toroidal transformer, with the hot and neutral wires
forming one winding, and a sense winding forming the other. Any
imbalance between the hot and neutral wire current flows would induce
a current in the sense winding, while (in principle) perfectly
balanced and opposed hot/neutral currents would result in no net
magnetic flux and thus no current induced in the sense winding.

The balance of these toroidal transformers is necessarily imperfect.
The hot and neutral wire paths aren't identical, sometimes one is
wound a bit more tightly than the other, and they aren't the identical
distance away from the sense winding. Hence, there's some difference
in inductive coupling within the transformer, and some difference in
capacitive coupling between the two "balanced" wires, and the sense
winding.

This imbalance tends to be worse at high frequencies where e.g. the
difference in capacitive coupling makes a difference.

When a motor-operated device is switched off, and creates a switching
arc due to inductive "kickback", the arc creates a burst of
high-frequency energy (easily covering the AM band and sometimes going
up to VHF). Even if the hot and neutral currents are perfectly
balanced (and they may not be - there might be some capacitive
coupling between the device and the operator's hand) the less-than-
perfect balance in the current sensor can allow a small blip of
current to be induced in the sense winding... and this can trip the
GFCI.

If the device contains a snubber, this may not happen. A GFCI with a
snubber/EMI filter at its output (and I suspect that some of these do
exist) would be less vulnerable to this sort of false trip.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 16:46:17 -0700, wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 2:22:39 PM UTC-4, wrote:
In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand.

GFCI devices have a service life of about ten (10) years in a dry location, and anywhere from 2-5 years in a damp location. In many cases, their effectiveness as a ground-fault devices is long-gone, whereas they will still function (somewhat) as a normal breaker. There are exceptions - see monthly test below.

Yes, DO test them every month as suggested.
YES, DO replace them IMMEDIATELY the moment they display any sort of wonkiness.

FULL STOP.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
Thanks Peter,
I do test most of the GFCI receptacles monthly. They always pass. So
I'll replace the two and see what happens.
Eric
I just replaced the GFCI outlets in my house. I had a problem with
triggering for no apparent reason with new GE ones. Replaced these
with Levitons and haven't had one trigger randomly. The washing
machine is connected to one and the electric lawnmower is connected to
another.

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 03:02:48 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Monday, 23 July 2018 19:22:39 UTC+1, wrote:

In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand. In the bathroom when I
turn off the hair clippers I use for beard trimming the GFCI almost
always trips. But only when the clippers are being turned off.
In the basement we have an twenty year old washing machine that we
kept to use in case the upstairs new washer needed repair, which has
ben more than once. When the washer changes cycles it will randomely
trip the GFCI. Like the upstairs GFCI it only happens when the load is
removed from the GFCI. For example, the water valve solenoids, when
switched off by the washer, will cause the GFCI to trip. Or when the
washer motor is turned off when it changes speed.
Do I need to buy better GFCI receptacles? Or is this just because
the things are generally so sensitive to arcing when a contact opens
that any brand will show the same behavior/
Thanks,
Eric

We had a thread on this very recently in sed. GFCIs are unbalanced at
relatively high frequencies, the result being they tend to trip on
arcing. Of course that doesn't rule out your GFCIs being faulty or
substandard, or your washing machine having N-E leakage.

In a previous residence I had an "outside" GFCI trip when using an
electrice lawn mower --- when the mower was plugged into the
still-coiled 75 foot extension cord (... about a 3 foot diameter coil).
Uncoil the extension cord and it ran Just Fine. The inductive kick of
turning on the motor was enough to "do it".

Jonesy
--
Marvin L Jones | Marvin | W3DHJ.net | linux
38.238N 104.547W | @ jonz.net | Jonesy | FreeBSD
* Killfiling google & XXXXbanter.com: jonz.net/ng.htm

Any other response is stupid.
Any other advice is blather.


I beg to differ. Other responses are not necessarily stupid nor blather. There are additional valuable points to be made that you did not include.

A GFCI is also an ultra-fast circuit breaker. Meaning that older motors that commonly will not trip a regular breaker will often trip a GFCI, yet not be defective - this due to the momentary turn-on surge.


Again, I beg to differ. A GFCI is is not by design a circuit breaker. It does not respond to sustained circuit overload conditions in a manner that protects house wiring -- which is exactly what a breaker is intended to do. Prevent fires.

A friend recently called me, mystified, asking why the GFCI he'd just installed was not tripping under a 30+ amp load, it was a 15 amp GFCI. I told him..... it's not a breaker. It's designed to protect humans from shocks, not fires. In this case, I expect the eventual failure mode would have been overheated wiring resulting in a fire somewhere in the circuit.... not necessarily the GFCI.

My friend was trying to create a protected sub circuit in a garage, where there was no access to the breaker, because it was in the house. I instructed him to install a sub panel with breakers and GFCIs in the outlets -- or use GFCI breakers. An expensive option.

Will some GFCIs trip (as per this thread) from momentary overloads? Yes, because switching inductive loads create a brief imbalance in the neutral. Signals out of phase, so to speak. Not from over current. Most will happily supply excess current if the rest of the house circuit allows.

Typically, a long wire run to a motor, an extension cord for example, will aggravate the imbalance, adding inductance.

Some devices will trip a GFCI pretty much most of the time. However, that this happens DOES NOT make the GFCI device faulty. It makes the device faulty


Again, I beg to differ. Nuisance trips are NOT necessarily indicative of a defective device. There are various motor start and stop conditions that can cause an imbalance (loading, inductance, stalls, voltage drop, even temperature).

GFCIs do fail in-elegantly. Some will refuse to trip. Others will trip too often, even under non imbalanced conditions. Better quality GFCIs will hold up longer and fail to safety -- tripping too often rather than not at all..

Terry

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 4:17:35 PM UTC-4, Terry Schwartz wrote:
Any other response is stupid.
Any other advice is blather.


I beg to differ. Other responses are not necessarily stupid nor blather. There are additional valuable points to be made that you did not include.

In every case in our house, we will use a GFCI breaker.

We are willing to pay the freight to achieve that double-duty function.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

"GFCI devices are designed to save lives under specific conditions. Under those same conditions, they can be inconvenient. That is a given. "

You mean inconvenience like going to work in stinky clothes or having all your food spoil because you can't afford a new refrigerator ? "Inconveniences" like that ? i do not disagree, but there are times when the risk is just so insignificant it is not worth the bull****. And the washer is even worse than the bathroom. In most bathrooms the floor is nowhere near and effective ground. The sink and tub, even if connected by copper and cast iron (some still is) almost all of them use like a whip like a condensing unit, plastic and non conductive. Unless you have really hard water the water itself would not be too much of a problem. It does not conduct all that well, the salts etc. in it do and they get there from what is on your skin when it gets wet. You may not agree, but I think it is fine not to wear a seatbelt and to turn off the air bags if you feel like it. Unless someone owns you.

Then there are statistics. How many lives have air bags saved if the person is wearing a seatbelt ? Close to zero and even then they might just hit the windshield. I just read about the newer requirement for arc proof breakers and the site cites how many1 people have been electrocuted but it doesn't say how many would have been saved by an arc proof breaker. This is more like the best advertising in the world, FORCE them to buy it. I see things done now with newer style devices and splices that i think should be against code. Are they ? Nope. Like that newfangled Teflon tape, it MAKES tapered thread fittings on pipes leak and I got proof. At the DIY they tell you it is code but it is not.

"What they do: They detect current flowing from the hot line, and not returning via the neutral line."

As well as the opposite. That is why they cannot share a neutral except under certain conditions.

"Meaning that they WILL NOT protect anyone deliberately inserting themselves into a circuit. "

Yes they will. that is the idea except for the "deliberately" part. you think they are worried about the electric meter not detecting the current through the neutral and not charging you for it ? News flash, the neutral does not even go through the meter. It doesn't have to, no matter where the current from the hot(s) go(es) it registers.

When any part of that current goes anywhere else it trips. It is set to the almost lethal range I think. At least top where muscle contraction would make it impossible for someone to let go.

"A GFCI is also an ultra-fast circuit breaker. Meaning that older motors that commonly will not trip a regular breaker will often trip a GFCI, yet not be defective - this due to the momentary turn-on surge. "

And just what do you propose to remedy that ? Just don't use it and sell it to someone in another country, oh wait, it probably won't be compatible with their power. So I guess just throw it out and do without your lathe, milling machine, planer, jointer, bandsaw, just throw it all in the garbage. OK.

"If a properly installed, properly functioning GFCI device is tripping - it is for a reason. As it is a life-safety device, the point of all this is not to defeat it, but to correct the reason for the tripping. "

Are you about to take on advising people how to do that on everything ? Will you also tell them to scrap that 1957 Chevy that's worth $ 35,000 because it doesn't have an air bag ? I live in the real world, do you ?

"Any other response is stupid.
Any other advice is blather. "

So you are claiming you are the smartest which means you hit 192 on an IQ test, rewired 20 houses and satisfied the most strict inspectors in town ?

Well then I will put out an ad for you for giving free advice.

The washer here is not on a GFCI and I will go down to the uncovered floor in the basement and load the washer in my bare feet. And I will not put my bench on a GFCI. And nothing in the garage is going on a GFCI.

The point is that not everyone can have everything just perfect.

"And yet, we have people posting here, that consistently
prove you can't fix stupid."

So send the guy a check so he can afford to be safe. As him how much. If you send it somehow through a non-profit organization you can deduct it off your adjusted income.

"When the field collapses, the magnet induces feedback, and will trip some GFCI devices. "

Then GFCIs should be designed with HF suppression in the detection coil circuit.

"Replaced these
with Levitons "

One good solution. Stick with Leviton.

"The balance of these toroidal transformers is necessarily imperfect. "

That is what makes them trip fist at like 20 amps, give or take. Worls well except for certain motors that only take more for a part of a second to start.

Square D QO series breakers use a scheme something like that without the nulling effect. They also have thermal which operates more slowly, trying to actually approximate the temperature of the wire. they are about the best that can be had as far as I know.

Truthfully, you'd be better off paying for arc-fault breakers. They provide a level of safety against arcing that is likely to cause a fire. The human risk is greater than shock. And certainly GFCI functionality is NOT needed in every circuit in your home. Add the GFCIs where the local risk of shock warrants the installation.


In every case in our house, we will use a GFCI breaker.

We are willing to pay the freight to achieve that double-duty function.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

On 7/24/18 3:33 PM, wrote:
[ His usual anti-government anti-regulation
conspiracy nonsense. ]

And here we have proof of what I said about
you can't fix stupid.



--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

"One should not (in some cases, cannot) cascade GFCI devices."

I missed that, thinking someone else posted it. Many GFCI outlets had outputs on the back to be sent to other outlets that would be also protected. I did break code one time to void a serious ****load of work on a prequoted job. It was to protect over the counter lighting in the kitchen.

In the 1990s i became against code to use the device for the splice, so all those outputs on the back became useless, the only code option was to run a GFCI breaker in the box. If you had seen the job you would have done the same thing. And there was no changing the plan or the price. We, well the boss of the job didn't even set the price, the customer said "I have this much money". Leaving his kitchen half apart would have resulted in a lawsuit..

Nothing is dangerous, the spirit of the code saying the device can't be the splice was because it could complicate replacing the device.

To everyone here, when you have been there and done as much as I have then you can tell me. And again, the strictest inspectors in town. They find out I did it they might not even inspect. I still always expect it, and I think that if someone gets killed because of your wiring you should go to jail.

"Again, I beg to differ. A GFCI is is not by design a circuit breaker."

Take it to about a 45 amp load for 30 mS and most will trip.

But in general, you are correct. Overcurrent protection is not their primary function.

"My friend was trying to create a protected sub circuit in a garage, where there was no access to the breaker, because it was in the house. I instructed him to install a sub panel with breakers and GFCIs in the outlets -- or use GFCI breakers. An expensive option. "

Not all that bad really, unless you don't know where to get the stuff. I little 6 position MLO might only be $ 30, one 240 V GFCI, that's expensive. thing is, if there was no wiring in the garage before, they want to see arc proof. Whether that is actually law is debatable, but the GFCI breakers can be as low as like $ 15. (regular breakers are inder $ 10) so 3 of them and one 240, that meets the requirement of five moves or less to shut down the building. (but not if it is an attached garage, then you got no problems as long as there is a main breaker at the mains coming in, if you run separate SERVICE that is different and I have known people to do that, they painted cars and had a huge compressor)

"In every case in our house, we will use a GFCI breaker. "

For attic lights when there are no outlets ? OK then, that is your prerogative.

"We are willing to pay the freight to achieve that double-duty function. "

You have every right to do so. You have every right to put roll cages and five point restraints in your cars. You have every right to buy only saws that have that protection for if you touch the blade it stops in microseconds.

But not to do such things by 21;37:11 tonight because they might DIE at 21:38:45 tonight does not mean they are stupid.

"Truthfully, you'd be better off paying for arc-fault breakers. "

Let him pay the freight.

In one bedroom we got a lamp, an overhead light and a litterbox. I know how dangerous those litterboxes can be.

In another we got a window AC unit, an unplugged older PC, a TV and a convertor box.

Here's the biggie, in my bedroom I got an old CRT TV (with the best friggin color rendition I have seen in a ong time that NO LCD could ever match), a convertor box, a VCR, an amplifier of about 15 WPC and a Pioneer SG-9500 EQ so I can understand almost half of their **** that sounds like it is coming through a series of paper towel tubes.

Yeah, all that is about to arc out. Who knows, I might decide to shoot up the place. Oh wait, I am not on any psychotropic drugs, nor need them.

You know, those damn internal connections from the power cord are only like an inch or two apart, and you know how 120 volts can all the sudden arc across that.

Oh wait. It doesn't.

And of course the wet bar, oh wait, no wet bar. I guess I will have to put one in. It's nearly 10 feet to the kitchen. And aa small fridge, well those are always arcing over. Right ? Didn't that kill like thousands of people every year ?

Oh wait, that was medical mistakes that killed 250,000 people a year. I think if you jump out every breaker and fuse in your house you are ore safe than if you are in the hospital. And this is the AMA's own figures. Look it up.

So if you DO get a severe electric shock, seems to me you are better off writhing on the ground and moaning until it passes rather than calling 911.

The odds are better.

"And here we have proof of what I said about
you can't fix stupid. "

You send me the money and I will upgrade this house in every way you prescribe, oh great one.

Or don't you care ? Coe on, how can you not care when you are in here with your golden (costing) advice ? Everyone must be safe. What about caring for others ? Why are you here calling people stupid when you have no better plan to offer ? In fact NO PLAN to offer ? In fact what have you EVER contributed here ?

All you do is bitch about other people, are you a **** ?

"And here we have proof of what I said about
you can't fix stupid. "

Are you nothing but a **** or are you gong to send the OPer and me a check so we can be safe ?

I bet you are deathly afraid of many things.

On 7/24/18 4:31 PM, wrote:
"And here we have proof of what I said about
you can't fix stupid. "
In fact what have you EVER contributed here ?

All you do is bitch about other people, are you a **** ?

I may be a ****, but I'm not an ignorant ****.
I don't constantly boast about how I "get away with" nor
do I find imaginary boogeymen hiding under every rock.

I know what I am capable of doing and doing well. I don't
need to constantly mouth off about how clever I am.

So go **** yourself.



--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 13:47:45 -0500, Chuck wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 16:46:17 -0700, wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 2:22:39 PM UTC-4, wrote:
In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand.

GFCI devices have a service life of about ten (10) years in a dry location, and anywhere from 2-5 years in a damp location. In many cases, their effectiveness as a ground-fault devices is long-gone, whereas they will still function (somewhat) as a normal breaker. There are exceptions - see monthly test below.

Yes, DO test them every month as suggested.
YES, DO replace them IMMEDIATELY the moment they display any sort of wonkiness.

FULL STOP.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
Thanks Peter,
I do test most of the GFCI receptacles monthly. They always pass. So
I'll replace the two and see what happens.
Eric
I just replaced the GFCI outlets in my house. I had a problem with
triggering for no apparent reason with new GE ones. Replaced these
with Levitons and haven't had one trigger randomly. The washing
machine is connected to one and the electric lawnmower is connected to
another.
Thanks for that Chuck. I think the GFCIs that I have are probably OK
but are just not capable of handling the inductive kickback from my
stuff.
Eric

On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 18:32:23 UTC+1, wrote:
OK - let's cut to the chase:

GFCI devices are designed to save lives under specific conditions. Under those same conditions, they can be inconvenient. That is a given.

What they do: They detect current flowing from the hot line, and not returning via the neutral line. If they detect this condition of more than a very, very few MA, they trip. Meaning that they WILL NOT protect anyone deliberately inserting themselves into a circuit. This despite sincere and touching wishes otherwise.

Some devices will trip a GFCI pretty much most of the time. However, that this happens DOES NOT make the GFCI device faulty. It makes the device faulty. What the device is doing is getting current from the hot side and sending it somewhere else but the neutral.

One should not (in some cases, cannot) cascade GFCI devices. Often this will cause false-trips, especially with motors.

A GFCI is also an ultra-fast circuit breaker. Meaning that older motors that commonly will not trip a regular breaker will often trip a GFCI, yet not be defective - this due to the momentary turn-on surge.

If a properly installed, properly functioning GFCI device is tripping - it is for a reason. As it is a life-safety device, the point of all this is not to defeat it, but to correct the reason for the tripping.

Any other response is stupid.
Any other advice is blather.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

unfortunately that's incorrect on several points.

On 24 Jul 2018 19:49:43 GMT, Allodoxaphobia
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 03:02:48 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Monday, 23 July 2018 19:22:39 UTC+1, wrote:

In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand. In the bathroom when I
turn off the hair clippers I use for beard trimming the GFCI almost
always trips. But only when the clippers are being turned off.
In the basement we have an twenty year old washing machine that we
kept to use in case the upstairs new washer needed repair, which has
ben more than once. When the washer changes cycles it will randomely
trip the GFCI. Like the upstairs GFCI it only happens when the load is
removed from the GFCI. For example, the water valve solenoids, when
switched off by the washer, will cause the GFCI to trip. Or when the
washer motor is turned off when it changes speed.
Do I need to buy better GFCI receptacles? Or is this just because
the things are generally so sensitive to arcing when a contact opens
that any brand will show the same behavior/
Thanks,
Eric

We had a thread on this very recently in sed. GFCIs are unbalanced at
relatively high frequencies, the result being they tend to trip on
arcing. Of course that doesn't rule out your GFCIs being faulty or
substandard, or your washing machine having N-E leakage.

In a previous residence I had an "outside" GFCI trip when using an
electrice lawn mower --- when the mower was plugged into the
still-coiled 75 foot extension cord (... about a 3 foot diameter coil).
Uncoil the extension cord and it ran Just Fine. The inductive kick of
turning on the motor was enough to "do it".

Jonesy
I am pretty much convinced now that it is the inductive kickback that
is causing the problem. The clipper motor is more akin to a solenoid
and I figured out that the washer is almost always tripping the GFCI
when a solenoid valve is turned off. In any case the tripping ONLY
occurs when the load is removed.
Eric

On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 21:45:48 UTC+1, Terry Schwartz wrote:

Truthfully, you'd be better off paying for arc-fault breakers. They provide a level of safety against arcing that is likely to cause a fire. The human risk is greater than shock. And certainly GFCI functionality is NOT needed in every circuit in your home. Add the GFCIs where the local risk of shock warrants the installation.

UK now requires gfci protection (at the panel) on all domestic circuits. So when smoke particles land on the fire alarm mains supply wiring, the fire alarm loses its power. Great eh.


NT