"UK now requires gfci protection (at the panel) on all domestic circuits. So when smoke particles land on the fire alarm mains supply wiring, the fire alarm loses its power. Great eh. '

Oh, you thought they want you alive ?

HAHAHAHAHA

On 25/07/2018 7:10 AM, wrote:
On 24 Jul 2018 19:49:43 GMT, Allodoxaphobia
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 03:02:48 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Monday, 23 July 2018 19:22:39 UTC+1, wrote:

In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand. In the bathroom when I
turn off the hair clippers I use for beard trimming the GFCI almost
always trips. But only when the clippers are being turned off.
In the basement we have an twenty year old washing machine that we
kept to use in case the upstairs new washer needed repair, which has
ben more than once. When the washer changes cycles it will randomely
trip the GFCI. Like the upstairs GFCI it only happens when the load is
removed from the GFCI. For example, the water valve solenoids, when
switched off by the washer, will cause the GFCI to trip. Or when the
washer motor is turned off when it changes speed.
Do I need to buy better GFCI receptacles? Or is this just because
the things are generally so sensitive to arcing when a contact opens
that any brand will show the same behavior/
Thanks,
Eric

We had a thread on this very recently in sed. GFCIs are unbalanced at
relatively high frequencies, the result being they tend to trip on
arcing. Of course that doesn't rule out your GFCIs being faulty or
substandard, or your washing machine having N-E leakage.

In a previous residence I had an "outside" GFCI trip when using an
electrice lawn mower --- when the mower was plugged into the
still-coiled 75 foot extension cord (... about a 3 foot diameter coil).
Uncoil the extension cord and it ran Just Fine. The inductive kick of
turning on the motor was enough to "do it".

Jonesy
I am pretty much convinced now that it is the inductive kickback that
is causing the problem. The clipper motor is more akin to a solenoid
and I figured out that the washer is almost always tripping the GFCI
when a solenoid valve is turned off. In any case the tripping ONLY
occurs when the load is removed.
Eric

have you tried some snubbers?

No one expects a normal extension cord or appliance built with the correct spacings and dielectric materials to arc. Arcs typically occur at fatigued wires, wires under mechanical tension, screws on outlets and switches, and similar connections, sometimes in a lamp socket or poorly wired junction, wire nut, set screw, push in terminal (JUST DON'T USE THOSE).

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 4:27:34 PM UTC-5, wrote:


Yeah, all that is about to arc out. Who knows, I might decide to shoot up the place. Oh wait, I am not on any psychotropic drugs, nor need them.

You know, those damn internal connections from the power cord are only like an inch or two apart, and you know how 120 volts can all the sudden arc across that.

Oh wait. It doesn't.

And of course the wet bar, oh wait, no wet bar. I guess I will have to put one in. It's nearly 10 feet to the kitchen. And aa small fridge, well those are always arcing over. Right ? Didn't that kill like thousands of people every year ?

"...push in terminal (JUST DON'T USE THOSE). "

In wiring ? I've seen those, I find it hard to believe they're code. Someone had a little private meeting.

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:58:38 +0800, Rheilly Phoull
wrote:

On 25/07/2018 7:10 AM, wrote:
On 24 Jul 2018 19:49:43 GMT, Allodoxaphobia
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 03:02:48 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Monday, 23 July 2018 19:22:39 UTC+1, wrote:

In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand. In the bathroom when I
turn off the hair clippers I use for beard trimming the GFCI almost
always trips. But only when the clippers are being turned off.
In the basement we have an twenty year old washing machine that we
kept to use in case the upstairs new washer needed repair, which has
ben more than once. When the washer changes cycles it will randomely
trip the GFCI. Like the upstairs GFCI it only happens when the load is
removed from the GFCI. For example, the water valve solenoids, when
switched off by the washer, will cause the GFCI to trip. Or when the
washer motor is turned off when it changes speed.
Do I need to buy better GFCI receptacles? Or is this just because
the things are generally so sensitive to arcing when a contact opens
that any brand will show the same behavior/
Thanks,
Eric

We had a thread on this very recently in sed. GFCIs are unbalanced at
relatively high frequencies, the result being they tend to trip on
arcing. Of course that doesn't rule out your GFCIs being faulty or
substandard, or your washing machine having N-E leakage.

In a previous residence I had an "outside" GFCI trip when using an
electrice lawn mower --- when the mower was plugged into the
still-coiled 75 foot extension cord (... about a 3 foot diameter coil).
Uncoil the extension cord and it ran Just Fine. The inductive kick of
turning on the motor was enough to "do it".

Jonesy
I am pretty much convinced now that it is the inductive kickback that
is causing the problem. The clipper motor is more akin to a solenoid
and I figured out that the washer is almost always tripping the GFCI
when a solenoid valve is turned off. In any case the tripping ONLY
occurs when the load is removed.
Eric

have you tried some snubbers?
No. I don't know enough about these things and how they work. I just
wanted to find out why they were tripping. Now that it may be I have
the answer I'll try it and if new, higher quality GFCIs work then that
will be great and the question answered.
Eric

We have established that you cannot read for content. No, we do not install GFCI devices throughout the house. Where they are either necessary-by-code or just a good idea, we use the CIRCUIT BREAKER combination device. Then, it becomes that super-fast circuit-breaker.

I do not know if the higher-end devices have built-in snubbers - I do know that we are generally free of nuisance trips. As to motors, our hot-tubs are each fed with a 50A device that is about 30% larger than a standard double-pole unit, and feeds to a common neutral- ending that myth. The pump is 120V, the blower is 120V, the heater is 240V @ 5,000 watts. So, depending on what is going at any given time, the load is simply not balanced.

All of our devices are damp-location rated, figuring it cannot hurt, and the premium is minimal.

Kids, grandkids, cats, dogs, and all the parts-and-pieces thereto. Makes these sorts of choices pretty basic and pretty obvious.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

All of our devices are damp-location rated, figuring it cannot hurt, and the premium is minimal.


there is a good point.

I think there are GFI's that are calibrated for a little higher trip current.

Those might be worth a try.

m

On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 16:20:02 UTC+1, wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:58:38 +0800, Rheilly Phoull
wrote:
On 25/07/2018 7:10 AM, wrote:
On 24 Jul 2018 19:49:43 GMT, Allodoxaphobia
wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 03:02:48 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 23 July 2018 19:22:39 UTC+1, wrote:

In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand. In the bathroom when I
turn off the hair clippers I use for beard trimming the GFCI almost
always trips. But only when the clippers are being turned off.
In the basement we have an twenty year old washing machine that we
kept to use in case the upstairs new washer needed repair, which has
ben more than once. When the washer changes cycles it will randomely
trip the GFCI. Like the upstairs GFCI it only happens when the load is
removed from the GFCI. For example, the water valve solenoids, when
switched off by the washer, will cause the GFCI to trip. Or when the
washer motor is turned off when it changes speed.
Do I need to buy better GFCI receptacles? Or is this just because
the things are generally so sensitive to arcing when a contact opens
that any brand will show the same behavior/
Thanks,
Eric

We had a thread on this very recently in sed. GFCIs are unbalanced at
relatively high frequencies, the result being they tend to trip on
arcing. Of course that doesn't rule out your GFCIs being faulty or
substandard, or your washing machine having N-E leakage.

In a previous residence I had an "outside" GFCI trip when using an
electrice lawn mower --- when the mower was plugged into the
still-coiled 75 foot extension cord (... about a 3 foot diameter coil).
Uncoil the extension cord and it ran Just Fine. The inductive kick of
turning on the motor was enough to "do it".

Jonesy
I am pretty much convinced now that it is the inductive kickback that
is causing the problem. The clipper motor is more akin to a solenoid
and I figured out that the washer is almost always tripping the GFCI
when a solenoid valve is turned off. In any case the tripping ONLY
occurs when the load is removed.
Eric

have you tried some snubbers?

No. I don't know enough about these things and how they work. I just
wanted to find out why they were tripping. Now that it may be I have
the answer I'll try it and if new, higher quality GFCIs work then that
will be great and the question answered.
Eric

Snubbers are the obvious option to try. 0.1uF + 100R in series absorbs hf content so the gfci doesn't see much of it.


NT

On 7/25/18 6:50 PM, wrote:
Snubbers are the obvious option to try. 0.1uF + 100R in series
absorbs hf content so the gfci doesn't see much of it.

And in case it isn't obvious, that series combination is across
the AC line. Not on the switched side of the load.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 3:27:27 PM UTC-4, wrote:
We have established that you cannot read for content. No, we do not install GFCI devices throughout the house...

Unless the house is still under construction
===============================================
DATES GFCI REQUIREMENTS WERE ESTABLISHED ([NEC]:

1971 Receptacles within 15 feet of pool walls
1971 All equipment used with storable swimming pools
1973 All outdoor receptacles
1974 Construction Sites :

-- https://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/gfci...y-chart-12234/

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 11:46:20 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 3:27:27 PM UTC-4, wrote:
We have established that you cannot read for content. No, we do not install GFCI devices throughout the house...

Unless the house is still under construction

Our house was built in 1890, with substantial additions added in 1928.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

My experience with Al is that a copper pigtail is required !
Use a wire nut with Al to Cu goop to keep from oxidizing.
Cu then goes to the GFCI or switch etc.

On Thursday, July 26, 2018 at 1:16:31 PM UTC-4, freenews wrote:
My experience with Al is that a copper pigtail is required !
Use a wire nut with Al to Cu goop to keep from oxidizing.
Cu then goes to the GFCI or switch etc.

Right. Use NoaLox, which is an anti-oxidant compound. Noalox stands for "No Aluminum Oxidation". It goes between copper and aluminum connections to SUPPOSEDLY stop fires.

Fox's Mercantile wrote:


Snubbers are the obvious option to try. 0.1uF + 100R in series
absorbs hf content so the gfci doesn't see much of it.


And in case it isn't obvious, that series combination is across
the AC line. Not on the switched side of the load.



** A simple check that a you have snubbed the switch off arc is to monitor the AM band with a radio tuned off station. The noise burst heard via the radio when you press the test button should be much reduced.




...... Phil

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 3:37:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:

All of our devices are damp-location rated, figuring it cannot hurt, and the premium is minimal.


there is a good point.

I think there are GFI's that are calibrated for a little higher trip current.

Those might be worth a try.

I guess GFI's can't be reset by just pushing a button, though. GFCI's can.

On Thursday, July 26, 2018 at 11:18:24 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 3:37:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:

All of our devices are damp-location rated, figuring it cannot hurt, and the premium is minimal.


there is a good point.

I think there are GFI's that are calibrated for a little higher trip current.

Those might be worth a try.

I guess GFI's can't be reset by just pushing a button, though. GFCI's can.

The former is also a breaker, and so must go through the "OFF" position before resetting - as with any breaker. The latter is not, and need only be reset.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA