None of the Ham FAQs have this privacy question.
http://wireless.fcc.gov/uls/index.htm?job=faq

Q: Can you get a USA Ham Radio license WITHOUT giving the gob'ment your SSN?

Unlikely. For what reason though ? If you declare sovereignty then you are not beholden to licensing laws within reason, that is as long as you harm noone. If you are a normal citizen then it really doesn't matter, there is no way to hide if they want you. Itis a simple matter of triangulation.

I am not sure about if you remove yourself from social security, which is possible despite popular belief, and even misinformation on their own website and via their representatives. You then face troubles opening any new bank accounts and a few other things. And don't even register to vote if you consider yourself apart from the corporate entity.

Removing yourself from corporatehood is not easy and not recommended for everyone. What's more you get none of your moneys back that you paid in, like SS even though you forfeit your right to collect, and federal income taxes.. And you are still a state Citizen. That is "State" citizen.

These are complex issues and it is very difficult to obtain good information these days. There are too many quacks that sell you their plan that will get you thrown in jail and marked as a possible threat. Not worth it for most people.

If you remain a citizen of the corporate United States rather than a Citizen of the united states you must give up that social security number whenever they ask for it, if you have one. Remaining a corporate citizen without on is almost impossible, if not outright impossible.

And why not give it up ? They probably have it anyway, or will.

wrote in
:

Unlikely. For what reason though ? If you declare sovereignty then you are not beholden to licensing laws within reason, that is as long as you harm noone. If you are a normal citizen then it really doesn't matter, there is no way to hide if they want you. Itis a simple matter of triangulation.

I am not sure about if you remove yourself from social security, which is possible despite popular belief, and even misinformation on their own website and via their representatives. You then face troubles opening any new bank accounts and a few other things. And don't even register to vote if you consider yourself apart from the corporate entity.

Removing yourself from corporatehood is not easy and not recommended for everyone. What's more you get none of your moneys back that you paid in, like SS even though you forfeit your right to collect, and federal income taxes. And you are still a state Citizen. That is "State" citizen.

These are complex issues and it is very difficult to obtain good information these days. There are too many quacks that sell you their plan that will get you thrown in jail and marked as a possible threat. Not worth it for most people.

If you remain a citizen of the corporate United States rather than a Citizen of the united states you must give up that social security number whenever they ask for it, if you have one. Remaining a corporate citizen without on is almost impossible, if not outright impossible.

And why not give it up ? They probably have it anyway, or will.

Your comments are appropriate, where the government has no business
associating your pension plan with the Ham Radio License.

What does a Ham Radio License have to do with my pension plan anyway?

It's just another case of government abuse of power.
a. They put a law in place for reason X.
b. Then they abuse their own laws for reason Y.

So the use of the social security number for anything other than the
pension plan is a clear abuse of the original intent of the law that was
passed.

They passed the law with duplicity.

So I would prefer to give them my real name, my real address, my real phone
number, my real birth date, my real height and weight, etc., but what on
earth does a Ham Radio License have to do with my pension plan?

It's a privacy violation that violates the intent of the law.
--
Yes, I know it's "voluntary" to give anyone the SSN.

On 4/4/18 7:45 PM, Erholt Rhein wrote:
Q: Can you get a USA Ham Radio license WITHOUT giving the
gob'ment your SSN?

Just do it and get over yourself.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

On 04/04/2018 08:45 PM, Erholt Rhein wrote:
None of the Ham FAQs have this privacy question.
http://wireless.fcc.gov/uls/index.htm?job=faq

Q: Can you get a USA Ham Radio license WITHOUT giving the gob'ment your SSN?


If you're a US resident then who cares, the government already has your
SSN, they're the ones who gave it to you!

If you're a foreign operator who wants to be licensed to operate in the
US then clearly a US SSN is not a requirement, you probably have to send
them a birth certificate and proof of citizenship of some type and they
send you an FRN.

"It's a privacy violation that violates the intent of the law. "

I agree, but they do it all the time. And the people don't care just like the boiling frog.

On Thu, 5 Apr 2018 00:45:15 +0000 (UTC), Erholt Rhein
wrote:

None of the Ham FAQs have this privacy question.
http://wireless.fcc.gov/uls/index.htm?job=faq

Q: Can you get a USA Ham Radio license WITHOUT giving the gob'ment your SSN?

No. I order to get an FCC license of any type, you need to first get
an FRN number. To obtain an FRN number from the ULS section of CORES,
you need to give the FCC your TIN, which for individuals is your SSN:
https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/support/universal-licensing-system-uls-resources/getting-fcc-registration-number-frn
"Taxpayer Identification Number (TIN). For individuals this
is a Social Security Number and for businesses this is an
Employer Identification Number."


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"If you're a foreign operator who wants to be licensed to operate in the US then clearly a US SSN is not a requirement,"

Actually it might just work to not claim US citizenship, but there may be other ramifications.

The reason I do not recommend it is that the process by which you gain certain legal status which includes that of a non-taxpayer is based on accusing them of fraud in a way, and the fact that they cannot answer the charge is one of the key points.

Part of that is that whatever you have done and signed into thus far was because you were unaware of this fraud. To even hint at it now may well preclude your ever being able to complete the process because at a latter date they can claim that you knew and have volunteered since. That voids the whole thing.

And people who value privacy are not the type to burn such a bridge, so I recommend just giving them the number. Don't even use TDC. (TDC means threat, duress, coercion) That is more aptly used when forced to sign something or else suffer some consequence, like not getting a driver's license or something like that, but the OP does not intend to refuse to sign and agree to be bound by the associated regulations, he wants to omit a piece of information.

This is tricky, I don't claim to know all about it but I know enough for example to pull it off myself. But others have different situations and may require a different approach.

The people I learn about this from had hired an ex-Harvard law professor top tutor them, and he could never have given that information out in his capacity as an active member of the bar. Once retired it is a different story.

"for businesses this is an
Employer Identification Number." "

Hmm, he could hire himself. Maybe, I would have to look into it but quite honestly I had had enough legal in my life plus I have a pro se case coming up. That is plenty.

However that is information that you can ask a lawyer. It would not put him in jeopardy to tell. Main thing is, can a business get an FCC license ? Most likely. What are any base taxes involved even if there is no pay involved ? Like getting a vendor's license, you get one and never send in any money they might start asking questions.

I would ask a lawyer about the EIN. There is also a possibility the information is online somewhere, just watch those URLS, you want an EDU or GOV at the end. (and even that is not infallible, but it is ammo incase TSHTF)

On 4/5/2018 12:07 AM, wrote:
"for businesses this is an
Employer Identification Number." "

Hmm, he could hire himself. Maybe, I would have to look into it but quite honestly I had had enough legal in my life plus I have a pro se case coming up.
Well, now you have me waiting for more info!
Mikek

On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 22:07:06 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

"for businesses this is an
Employer Identification Number." "

Hmm, he could hire himself. Maybe, I would have to look into it
but quite honestly I had had enough legal in my life plus I
have a pro se case coming up. That is plenty.

The EIN is for commercial 2-way radio business licenses. Except for
radio club licenses, all US ham licenses are issued to individuals.

"Who Can Lawfully Request My Social Security Number?"
http://www.identityhawk.com/Who-Can-Lawfully-Request-My-Social-Security-Number/

However that is information that you can ask a lawyer.

Free legal advice:
https://www.google.com/search?q=free+legal+advice

Main thing is, can a business get an FCC license ?

Yes, in a communications service appropriate for being operated by a
business. Ham radio is by definition NOT a business. Nice try.

Most likely.

Totally unlikely.

What are any base taxes involved even if there is no pay
involved ?

No, because you cannot legally charge for using ham radio services.
There was quite a discussion going on about 20 years ago over whether
a ham radio operator could order a pizza via an autopatch. The
decision is more complexicated than I want to discuss.

Like getting a vendor's license, you get one and never send
in any money they might start asking questions.

If you get a business license, and furiously deduct everything in
sight on your taxes, but cannot demonstrate any income, the IRS
considers your activities to be a hobby, not a business. Businesses
are expected to separate their customers from their money, which a
hobby fails to do.

I would ask a lawyer about the EIN. There is also a possibility
the information is online somewhere, just watch those URLS,
you want an EDU or GOV at the end. (and even that is not
infallible, but it is ammo incase TSHTF)

I can see that you've never dealt with a lawyer. Asking a lawyer for
advice is an exercise in futility. You never get a definitive yes or
no answer. Instead, you get multiple possibilities, interpretations,
and actions, leaving you to flip a coin as to which action is the
correct one. If it later appears that your decision was not optimum
or correct, it's your fault, not the lawyers.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

In article ,
wrote:
"for businesses this is an
Employer Identification Number." "

Hmm, he could hire himself. Maybe, I would have to look into it but quite honestly I had had enough legal in my life plus I have
a pro se case coming up. That is plenty.

However that is information that you can ask a lawyer. It would not put him in jeopardy to tell. Main thing is, can a business
get an FCC license ? Most likely.

Businesses can get certain types of FCC licenses.

As I understand it, no business can get a ham license, because the use
of amateur radio for commercial purposes is forbidden. You have to be
an individual person, who can (in person) take and pass the test(s)
required for whatever amateur radio license grade you're going for.

There is such a thing as an amateur club-station license, but each
club requires at least four members, officers, and there has to be an
individually-licensed ham who acts as "trustee" for the station and
takes legal responsibility for its operation. If you don't have your
own ham license, you can only use a club station if there's a licensed
ham present to act as a "control operator", taking responsibility for
proper operation and (if necessary) "taking the keys away from you" if
you do it wrong.

[And, tangentially... I haven't yet heard of a case in which the
"Sovereign citizen" arguments have actually won out in court. If a
"sovereign citizen" refuses to pay taxes, or commits a Federal crime
and is charged for it, and uses the "sovereign citizen" arguments as
a defense... quite consistently, they lose... the courts reject these
arguments as "frivolous" or "made up".

Granted, quite a few people seem to be "flying under the radar",
e.g. failing to file/pay Federal income taxes on the grounds of being
"sovereign citizens" or "state citizens". Some get away with this
for years. However, if/when audited or charged, they don't do well
in court.

It's not an approach I recommend. You're free to dislike the Federal
government all you like, but _ignoring_ it isn't wise, especially if
you're doing so on the basis of legal arguments that the IRS and
courts have been consistently rejecting for decades, based on legal
precedents which reach back all the way to The Federalist Papers.]

wrote in
:

"It's a privacy violation that violates the intent of the law. "

I agree, but they do it all the time.
And the people don't care just like the boiling frog.

It's never a case of "you can't beat city hall" but if you fight, then they
change their ways - but a lot of people have to do the fighting.

It's the American way to fight for your right to privacy.

For example, it used to be that your medical insurance was your ssn and
then Texas passed a law and now you don't have to have your medical
insurance tied to your pension plan.

The Jews in Germany didn't have that concept of fighting for their rights,
and six million of them died because of it. Had six million people fought,
like a few thousand did in Warsaw while Russia looked on watching in glee
with the Lublick government in tow, they would have almost outnumbered the
German army.

You don't fight for your rights, you lose them.
Ask the Jews if you think nobody wants to take away your rights.

Anyway, I found out how to do it.
I will write up a tutorial so that anyone else can do it too.

That's the Usenet way to give back for your free advice.

Am Thu, 05 Apr 2018 08:13:34 -0700, schrieb Jeff Liebermann:

I can see that you've never dealt with a lawyer.

Jeff is right about lawyers, but wrong about the FRN, but not completely
so!

It's technical, with nuance, but I was on the phone with the FCC today for
almost an hour, and the end result is that you *can* get the Ham Radio
License (Technicians Class) without giving them a SSN.

After noting that the question is not in the FCC Ham Radio FAQ
http://wireless.fcc.gov/uls/index.htm?job=faq

I called the FCC today at 202-418-4120 & was bounced all over the FCC:
https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/available-support-services

So this is a summary, which is simpler than what actually happened.

Starting here (877-480-3201), you hit x4 to get the FRN department who
knows about FRN numbers but not licensing.

Starting here (877-480-3201), you hit x2 to get the ULS department who
knows about licensing but not about FRN numbers.

Bouncing back and forth between them, you end up finding out:
- You can tell the FCC that you don't have a SSN (don't ask, don't tell)
- Or, you can use the last 4 digits & get a "Restricted Use FRN"
- Or, you can use zero digits & get a "Special Use FRN" (form 323).

The latter two really don't apply to individuals, but they will "probably"
work. I have a few FRNs already, as the FRN guy walked me through the whole
process, where I advise you have, ahead of time, this written down:

1. You must give them a real email address (they send a verification note).
2. You can register for as many FRNs as you want with that email address.
3. The password is a bitch (no fewer than 12 characters, no more than 15
characters, a number, both cases, & a special character)
4. Best best is to register for a "regular" FRN & don't give them the SSN

Here are the steps:
A. Go to the FCC web site
https://www.fcc.gov
B. On the top blue bar, press the "Licensing & Databases" tab
https://www.fcc.gov/licensing
C. On the left side, click the "FCC Registration System (CORES)" link
https://www.fcc.gov/licensing-databa...tration-system
D. On the right hand side, click "Register and update Username Account"
https://apps2.fcc.gov/fccUserReg/pages/login.htm
E. On the right hand side, click to create a new account
https://apps2.fcc.gov/fccUserReg/pag...ateAccount.htm
F. Check your email for the verification mail & click the verification link
G. Now go back to step C/D to "Create, update and associate FRN(s)"
https://apps.fcc.gov/cores/userLogin.do
H. When you log in, you'll end up in your "user home"
https://apps.fcc.gov/cores/userHome.do
I. Click on the "Register New FRN" link
https://apps.fcc.gov/cores/regEntity...AxQAvfjuDVtKvo
J. It's ok to tell the truth here that you're an individual in the USA
K. When you hit the "continue" button, now you have to decide
Do you want a "restricted use FRN" (i.e., only requires 4 SSN digits) --- this is what the FRN helpdesk suggested
Do you want a "regular use FRN" (i.e., doesn't require a SSN)
L. I did both, so I have _two_ FRNs now, but you can pick one.
M. Most people will pick a "regular" FRN so let's do that now
N. Click on "CORES FRN Registration" link & press "continue"
O. Fill out the form noticing the line that says:
If you do not have a Social Security Number, select a reason:
P. The available reasons a
- Applied for
- Exempted Activities ----- this is what the ULS helpdesk suggested
- The individual is a petitioner
- The individual is foreign
Q. Enter in the following required information:
- First Name: (it takes an initial)
- Last Name:
- Address:
- City: (always amazes me they ask for city when they have zip)
- Zip:
- State: (always amazes me they ask for state when they have zip)
- Email: (why ask this if you're already logged in?)
R. Press "Submit" and you'll get an immediate on-screen confirmation:
"Thank you for registering with the FCC.
As of today, Apr 5 2018 9:44AM, you have been assigned the following
FCC Registration Number (FRN): 0072678193"
S. Write that number down as you don't seem to get an email confirmation.

Don't do what I ended up doing, which is that the FRN helpdesk told me to
create a "restricted use FRN" so I did (which still requires the last four
digits of your SSN); but the ULS helpdesk told me to create an "Exempted
Activities" FRN (which they told me is for people who don't want to give
out their SSN) - so now I have both.

You can't delete the FRN on the web page but you can ask the FCC to delete
it by sending an email to " and the form 323 people
don't have a phone number but you can ask questions of them via email to
".

Let me know if I left anything out that you need, but this seems to be the
process, where both the CORES and FRN people told me lots of people ask the
question (so why isn't it in the FCC FAQ?).

Ragnusen Ultred wrote in news
Let me know if I left anything out that you need, but this seems to be the
process, where both the CORES and FRN people told me lots of people ask the
question (so why isn't it in the FCC FAQ?).

Excellent!
Thanks!

On 04/05/2018 12:59 AM, wrote:
"If you're a foreign operator who wants to be licensed to operate in the US then clearly a US SSN is not a requirement,"

Actually it might just work to not claim US citizenship, but there may be other ramifications.

The reason I do not recommend it is that the process by which you gain certain legal status which includes that of a non-taxpayer is based on accusing them of fraud in a way, and the fact that they cannot answer the charge is one of the key points.

Part of that is that whatever you have done and signed into thus far was because you were unaware of this fraud. To even hint at it now may well preclude your ever being able to complete the process because at a latter date they can claim that you knew and have volunteered since. That voids the whole thing.

And people who value privacy are not the type to burn such a bridge, so I recommend just giving them the number. Don't even use TDC. (TDC means threat, duress, coercion) That is more aptly used when forced to sign something or else suffer some consequence, like not getting a driver's license or something like that, but the OP does not intend to refuse to sign and agree to be bound by the associated regulations, he wants to omit a piece of information.

This is tricky, I don't claim to know all about it but I know enough for example to pull it off myself. But others have different situations and may require a different approach.

The people I learn about this from had hired an ex-Harvard law professor top tutor them, and he could never have given that information out in his capacity as an active member of the bar. Once retired it is a different story.


I thought about getting a ham license at one point and even as a US
citizen it all just seemed like a huge hassle for not much reward. If
I'd been born in the 50s or 60s I probably would've gotten into it, but
I was born in the dying days of disco instead.

Instead of buying a secondhand shortwave radio I bought a secondhand
2400 bps modem. Mom and Dad humored me but thought this whole "computers
talking to each other" thing was just a weird fad, like CB radio. Oh well...

On 04/05/2018 09:28 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 04/05/2018 12:59 AM, wrote:
"If you're a foreign operator who wants to be licensed to operate in
the US then clearly a US SSN is not a requirement,"

Actually it might just work to not claim US citizenship, but there may
be other ramifications.

The reason I do not recommend it is that the process by which you gain
certain legal status which includes that of a non-taxpayer is based on
accusing them of fraud in a way, and the fact that they cannot answer
the charge is one of the key points.

Part of that is that whatever you have done and signed into thus far
was because you were unaware of this fraud. To even hint at it now may
well preclude your ever being able to complete the process because at
a latter date they can claim that you knew and have volunteered since.
That voids the whole thing.

And people who value privacy are not the type to burn such a bridge,
so I recommend just giving them the number. Don't even use TDC. (TDC
means threat, duress, coercion) That is more aptly used when forced to
sign something or else suffer some consequence, like not getting a
driver's license or something like that, but the OP does not intend to
refuse to sign and agree to be bound by the associated regulations, he
wants to omit a piece of information.

This is tricky, I don't claim to know all about it but I know enough
for example to pull it off myself. But others have different
situations and may require a different approach.

The people I learn about this from had hired an ex-Harvard law
professor top tutor them, and he could never have given that
information out in his capacity as an active member of the bar. Once
retired it is a different story.


I thought about getting a ham license at one point and even as a US
citizen it all just seemed like a huge hassle for not much reward. If
I'd been born in the 50s or 60s I probably would've gotten into it, but
I was born in the dying days of disco instead.

Instead of buying a secondhand shortwave radio I bought a secondhand
2400 bps modem. Mom and Dad humored me but thought this whole "computers
talking to each other" thing was just a weird fad, like CB radio. Oh
well...

It took me all summer to save up for that little external modem and an
extra one megabyte stick of RAM, that **** was expensive in 1992. Less
than two years later I took home a 9600 bps modem sitting in my high
school's trash bin.

On 04/05/2018 02:55 PM, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
Am Thu, 05 Apr 2018 08:13:34 -0700, schrieb Jeff Liebermann:

I can see that you've never dealt with a lawyer.

Jeff is right about lawyers, but wrong about the FRN, but not completely
so!

It's technical, with nuance, but I was on the phone with the FCC today for
almost an hour, and the end result is that you *can* get the Ham Radio
License (Technicians Class) without giving them a SSN.

After noting that the question is not in the FCC Ham Radio FAQ
http://wireless.fcc.gov/uls/index.htm?job=faq

I called the FCC today at 202-418-4120 & was bounced all over the FCC:
https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/available-support-services

So this is a summary, which is simpler than what actually happened.

Starting here (877-480-3201), you hit x4 to get the FRN department who
knows about FRN numbers but not licensing.

Starting here (877-480-3201), you hit x2 to get the ULS department who
knows about licensing but not about FRN numbers.

Bouncing back and forth between them, you end up finding out:
- You can tell the FCC that you don't have a SSN (don't ask, don't tell)
- Or, you can use the last 4 digits & get a "Restricted Use FRN"
- Or, you can use zero digits & get a "Special Use FRN" (form 323).

The latter two really don't apply to individuals, but they will "probably"
work. I have a few FRNs already, as the FRN guy walked me through the whole
process, where I advise you have, ahead of time, this written down:

1. You must give them a real email address (they send a verification note).
2. You can register for as many FRNs as you want with that email address.
3. The password is a bitch (no fewer than 12 characters, no more than 15
characters, a number, both cases, & a special character)
4. Best best is to register for a "regular" FRN & don't give them the SSN

Here are the steps:
A. Go to the FCC web site
Â* https://www.fcc.gov B. On the top blue bar, press the "Licensing &
Databases" tab
Â* https://www.fcc.gov/licensing
C. On the left side, click the "FCC Registration System (CORES)" link

https://www.fcc.gov/licensing-databa...tration-system

D. On the right hand side, click "Register and update Username Account"
Â* https://apps2.fcc.gov/fccUserReg/pages/login.htm
E. On the right hand side, click to create a new account
Â* https://apps2.fcc.gov/fccUserReg/pag...ateAccount.htm
F. Check your email for the verification mail & click the verification link
G. Now go back to step C/D to "Create, update and associate FRN(s)"
Â* https://apps.fcc.gov/cores/userLogin.do
H. When you log in, you'll end up in your "user home"
Â* https://apps.fcc.gov/cores/userHome.do
I. Click on the "Register New FRN" link

https://apps.fcc.gov/cores/regEntity...AxQAvfjuDVtKvo

J. It's ok to tell the truth here that you're an individual in the USA
K. When you hit the "continue" button, now you have to decide
Â* Do you want a "restricted use FRN" (i.e., only requires 4 SSN digits)
--- this is what the FRN helpdesk suggested
Â* Do you want a "regular use FRN" (i.e., doesn't require a SSN)
L. I did both, so I have _two_ FRNs now, but you can pick one.
M. Most people will pick a "regular" FRN so let's do that now
N. Click on "CORES FRN Registration" link & press "continue"
O. Fill out the form noticing the line that says:
Â* If you do not have a Social Security Number, select a reason: P. The
available reasons a
Â* - Applied for
Â* - Exempted Activities ----- this is what the ULS helpdesk suggested
Â* - The individual is a petitioner
Â* - The individual is foreign
Q. Enter in the following required information:
Â* - First Name: (it takes an initial)
Â* - Last Name: Â* - Address: Â* - City: (always amazes me they ask for
city when they have zip) Â* - Zip: Â* - State: (always amazes me they ask
for state when they have zip) Â* - Email: (why ask this if you're already
logged in?)
R. Press "Submit" and you'll get an immediate on-screen confirmation:
Â* "Thank you for registering with the FCC. Â*Â* As of today, Apr 5 2018
9:44AM, you have been assigned the following
Â*Â* FCC Registration Number (FRN): 0072678193"
S. Write that number down as you don't seem to get an email confirmation.

Don't do what I ended up doing, which is that the FRN helpdesk told me to
create a "restricted use FRN" so I did (which still requires the last four
digits of your SSN); but the ULS helpdesk told me to create an "Exempted
Activities" FRN (which they told me is for people who don't want to give
out their SSN) - so now I have both.

You can't delete the FRN on the web page but you can ask the FCC to delete
it by sending an email to " and the form 323 people
don't have a phone number but you can ask questions of them via email to
".

Let me know if I left anything out that you need, but this seems to be the
process, where both the CORES and FRN people told me lots of people ask the
question (so why isn't it in the FCC FAQ?).

Nice job

On 4/5/18 1:55 PM, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
Jeff is right about lawyers, but wrong about the FRN, but
not completely so!

Considering that you're the same name shifting troll that posts
endless threads about brake shoes, Apple batteries, smoke
machines, front end alignment and on and on and on...

I'm going dismiss what you just posted as more of your long
rambling bull****.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

I can't think of anyone's opinions and advice I respect more than yours, but...

"As I understand it, no business can get a ham license, because the use of amateur radio for commercial purposes is forbidden. "

That makes sense. I have wondered about businesses owning vehicles, is there a requirement there for at least one person to be in control and put his name on the line, or can it be just in a company name. Same with property. These are things I never found out because I never had any reason to.

"I haven't yet heard of a case in which the
"Sovereign citizen" arguments have actually won out in court."

That is not how it's done. Being sovereign has very little meaning, when you make well into six figures, being a non-taxpayer does have meaning. there is a specific process, and then you can't engage in certain contracts with the government. In fact you can't even sign a W-4 so you will forever be self employed or find an employer who will operate in a way that facilitates your wishes in the matter. I have found employers who simply pay cash so it is a moot point then anyway. No paper trail, nothing happens. Also when you do this you don't just not file a 1040, you CAN'T file a 1040 because it is one of the types of contracts with the government which blows the whole thing, and it only works once. In act, you can't be audited if you don't file. Also, the people who beat them did not file, if you file you lose. When you sign your name at the bottom it is not s receipt, it is a contract and an acknowledgement of jurisdiction to a private corporation, the IRS. Though chartered by the government they are incorporated just like General Motors, no better no worse. Same with the Federal Reserve. When you open a bank account you are entering into a contract with them. In each of those cases the contract is one in which they can change the terms for both parties, you and them at will and you cannot. It is technically repugnant to the common law but since you have the "constitutional" right to sign into it, it flies.

The other thing about tax court, you won't hear about the people who beat them, they do not like to publicize it. That is the same with any court, if you make them fear public scrutiny on anything it works in your favor. In some cases you file nearly all your evidence in the form of affidavits to the clerk of courts so that it is a matter of public record even if the judge has it stricken from the record of the proceedings.

And you're right, a lawyer will not tell you these things. That is unless you pick the right lawyer. That is not the easiest thing to do. For something like a DUI for example when you really are actually guilty, you want one who CAN litigate but you don't want him TO litigate. oyu want one who knows the judge and prosecutor and can get the thing moved into chambers out of the busybodies are MADD etc. but if you cause actual injuries and those people are not satisfied they can make it impossible.

Other matter are totally different story. you can actually defend yourself better than a lawyer because he has a few things in that oath with which you do not have to abide. That is if you know what you're doing, and nobody goes to law school just top defend themselves and without that license they will not be defending anyone else. Of course telling you anything will cost money because it either makes them money or it doesn't. If you don't hire them you can pay for their time and that creates privilege. But you still have to find the right one(s). If you thought finding a good pizza place was hard...

The techniques you use in a tax court, which is a civil court with a few extraordinary powers, are different than those used for a regular tort case or a criminal case. My friends hired an ex-law professor from Harvard to tutor them, and they beat the IRS. he wasn't worried about his oath anymore. He also help one totally wreck them in a criminal trial.

Let's put it this way, if you get caught selling weed (marked money and all) and they find your (expensive I personally know...) grow room, weapons and all kind of ****, what do you expect ? Well with a lawyer he lost, but operating pro se he won the appeal. But that should have happened the first time because unbeknownst to most people, if you win the appeal you are still convicted. Actually the same is true of a presidential pardon.

" It's not an approach I recommend."

I agree, it is not for everybody. But there are some who it does benefit, and that is not publicized.

The instructions for the process look like a phone book.

That first line was not meant for you, sorry.

I don't mean anything negative by that but the posts got mixed up. Frikken Google with no tree view.

Am Thu, 5 Apr 2018 21:25:24 -0500, schrieb Fox's Mercantile:

Considering that you're the same name shifting troll that posts
endless threads about brake shoes, Apple batteries, smoke
machines, front end alignment and on and on and on...

I'm going dismiss what you just posted as more of your long
rambling bull****.

*Hi Snit* (aka Fox's Mercantile),

You *never* add value to *any* thread.

The problem with you, Snit, is that you can't possibly ever post anything
but accusations of trolls.

*You can't answer an on-topic question if you needed to save your life.*
1. You have zero technical expertise
2. You have zero intent to be helpful
3. You just want to accuse everyone else of exactly what you are doing.

Hence, you can't stay on topic and you always accuse everyone else of doing
what you constantly do, Snit.

Just watch.

On 4/6/18 5:17 AM, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
Am Thu, 5 Apr 2018 21:25:24 -0500, schrieb Fox's Mercantile:

Considering that you're the same name shifting troll that posts
endless threads about brake shoes, Apple batteries, smoke
machines, front end alignment and on and on and on...

I'm going dismiss what you just posted as more of your long
rambling bull****.

*Hi Snit* (aka Fox's Mercantile),

I was right, and you just proved it by going off,

And I'm not ****ing Snit you asshole.



--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

Am Fri, 6 Apr 2018 09:48:56 -0500, schrieb Fox's Mercantile:

And I'm not ****ing Snit you asshole.

And yet, you prove in every post what you can't hide, which is that you are
Snit.

1. You have zero helpful intent
2. You have zero technical capabiltiees
3. Hence you can only troll - and - you accuse everyone else of trolling.

*You are _Snit_, Fox Mercantile.*

You just hate that everyone knows it.

On 4/6/18 10:41 AM, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
*You are _Snit_, Fox Mercantile.*

BWahahaha, I'm not Snit, but you're still an asshole.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

Am Fri, 6 Apr 2018 11:16:01 -0500, schrieb Fox's Mercantile:

BWahahaha, I'm not Snit, but you're still an asshole.

Hehhehheh ... and yet, you *are Snit*, which you prove in every post!

On Thu, 5 Apr 2018 21:28:59 -0400, bitrex
wrote:

I thought about getting a ham license at one point and even as a US
citizen it all just seemed like a huge hassle for not much reward. If
I'd been born in the 50s or 60s I probably would've gotten into it, but
I was born in the dying days of disco instead.

I was born in the late 40's and obtained a ham license when I was
about 13 years old. Sputnik had been launched about 3 years earlier
(1957) and the US went nuts.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sputnik+fever
We were going to beat the Russians in the space race by cranking out
more scientists and engineers. Also, us kids also couldn't help
noticing that the parents were genuinely worried about Russia
attacking with missiles and bombers. So, any kid with even the
slightest technical ability was encouraged to go into some kind of
technical field. So, I got into ham radio.

Instead of buying a secondhand shortwave radio I bought a secondhand
2400 bps modem. Mom and Dad humored me but thought this whole "computers
talking to each other" thing was just a weird fad, like CB radio. Oh well...

You missed the earlier 110 and 300 baud modems with acoustic couplers.
Nothing worked as expected or consistently. Turn on some music in the
same room, and the error rate would climb.
https://www.google.com/search?q=anderson+jacobson+acoustic+coupler&tbm=is ch
The nice part was that I could use it with a pay phone. Ah,
nostalgia.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 4/6/18 11:52 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
https://www.google.com/search?q=anderson+jacobson+acoustic+coupler&tbm=is ch
The nice part was that I could use it with a pay phone. Ah,
nostalgia.

Heh, I still have one. Want it?


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

On Fri, 6 Apr 2018 12:08:36 -0500, Fox's Mercantile
wrote:

On 4/6/18 11:52 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
https://www.google.com/search?q=anderson+jacobson+acoustic+coupler&tbm=is ch
The nice part was that I could use it with a pay phone. Ah,
nostalgia.

Heh, I still have one. Want it?

Which one? The pay phone or the AJ acoustic coupler modem? I'll
assume the coupler.

Methinks I will need to regretfully decline your generous offer. I
spent my first half century collecting such things and am now spending
my next half century getting rid of the junk.

BTW, I previously had one of these:
http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/networking/19/371/2023
but gave it to a collector of telco gizmos about 10 years ago.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 4/6/18 1:22 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Which one? The pay phone or the AJ acoustic coupler modem? I'll
assume the coupler.

Well, I didn't really expect you to jump on it.

Methinks I will need to regretfully decline your generous offer.

I understand, I'm working on "thinning the herd" here myself.



--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

On 04/06/2018 12:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 5 Apr 2018 21:28:59 -0400, bitrex
wrote:

I thought about getting a ham license at one point and even as a US
citizen it all just seemed like a huge hassle for not much reward. If
I'd been born in the 50s or 60s I probably would've gotten into it, but
I was born in the dying days of disco instead.

I was born in the late 40's and obtained a ham license when I was
about 13 years old. Sputnik had been launched about 3 years earlier
(1957) and the US went nuts.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sputnik+fever
We were going to beat the Russians in the space race by cranking out
more scientists and engineers. Also, us kids also couldn't help
noticing that the parents were genuinely worried about Russia
attacking with missiles and bombers. So, any kid with even the
slightest technical ability was encouraged to go into some kind of
technical field. So, I got into ham radio.

My junior high school was built around that time and had a small
planetarium, I guess they wanted to get the students of 50s and 60s
thinking about space?

Sadly by the time I was a student there in the early 1990s the
planetarium dome hadn't been used in years and the room converted into a
lecture hall for larger classes, the planetarium projector gizmo either
damaged and no spare parts/too expensive to fix, or just nobody still
there who recalled how to operate it.

A few years later the little dome was torn down and the wing renovated
into the school's computer lab.

Instead of buying a secondhand shortwave radio I bought a secondhand
2400 bps modem. Mom and Dad humored me but thought this whole "computers
talking to each other" thing was just a weird fad, like CB radio. Oh well...

You missed the earlier 110 and 300 baud modems with acoustic couplers.
Nothing worked as expected or consistently. Turn on some music in the
same room, and the error rate would climb.
https://www.google.com/search?q=anderson+jacobson+acoustic+coupler&tbm=is ch
The nice part was that I could use it with a pay phone. Ah,
nostalgia.

The first PC we had in the house was a Leading Edge 386 16MHz probably
purchased around 1990, it came with 1 meg of RAM stock. A "budget" model
but still probably cost them fortune, we were never exactly wealthy
folks and a business-class 486 cost the better part of 10k then.

The secondhand modem I bought looked a lot like this:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71vePa6mXgL._SL1500_.jpg

but I think it was a generic "Hayes Compatible" model not a name brand.

We got a lot of life out of more or less the same rig though; the 386
with an extra meg of RAM and 56k modem from 1996 sometime ran Windows
3.1 fine and served as the household "email server" until they sold the
home circa 2001

In article ,
wrote:
I can't think of anyone's opinions and advice I respect more than yours, but...

"As I understand it, no business can get a ham license, because the use
of amateur radio for commercial purposes is forbidden. "

That makes sense. I have wondered about businesses owning vehicles, is
there a requirement there for at least one person to be in control and
put his name on the line, or can it be just in a company name. Same with
property. These are things I never found out because I never had any
reason to.

Depends on the type of business, I believe.

Corporations have standing to own property, as they are defined in law
as something on the order of "artifical persons". The business
can't hold a driver's license, though - the business itself can't
drive the car - the operator has to be a human who is individually
licensed. [And how this plays for "driverless cars" is complex,
varies from place to place, and is far from settled. :-) ]

The same is true of some sorts of non-incorporated associations.

In the case of "limited liability partnerships" I don't know whether
such a partnership owns property or not.

In the case of a "DBA" (Doing Business As, a.k.a. a "fictitious
business"), no, I don't think so. The property is owned by the
individual or family or other group who is doing business under a
fictitious business name - the name is just a branding, to help deal
with the public.


"I haven't yet heard of a case in which the
"Sovereign citizen" arguments have actually won out in court."

That is not how it's done. Being sovereign has very little meaning, when
you make well into six figures, being a non-taxpayer does have meaning.
there is a specific process, and then you can't engage in certain
contracts with the government. In fact you can't even sign a W-4 so you
will forever be self employed or find an employer who will operate in a
way that facilitates your wishes in the matter. I have found employers
who simply pay cash so it is a moot point then anyway. No paper trail,
nothing happens.

Well, this all falls into the category of what I was referring to as
"flying under the radar."

Yes, if you can arrange to work on a cash-only basis for your whole
life, and never file anything, you may escape notice. If you _do_ get
noticed, one way or another, they can still come after you for failing
to pay taxes, though. (As I understand it, the IRS doesn't get you
for "failing to file" - they get you for "failing to pay" or "filing a
false statement").

I have to say I'm sceptical about the idea of somebody being able to
earn six figures and evade detection through some sort of very
complicated process.

In
act, you can't be audited if you don't file.

You can't be audited (i.e. your filing can't be checked for errors,
because you didn't file), but you still _can_ be charged with failing to
pay the taxes you were due to pay. Different issue.

When you sign your name at the
bottom it is not s receipt, it is a contract and an acknowledgement of
jurisdiction to a private corporation, the IRS. Though chartered by the
government they are incorporated just like General Motors, no better no
worse.

This same "I didn't agree to it, I'm not bound by it, hence you don't
have jurisdiction" argument is at the base of a whole lot of the
Sovereign Citizen claims... and it keeps getting shot down.

The other thing about tax court, you won't hear about the people who
beat them, they do not like to publicize it. That is the same with any
court, if you make them fear public scrutiny on anything it works in
your favor.

That same argument can be made about almost _any_ claim... "they cover
it up and hide their losses". Taken to extremes, it's at the core of
about every crank conspiracy theory floating around the Net (or
anywhere) these days... "Sure, there's nothing about this in the
mainstream press... it's being covered up... see how effective the
conspirators are!". Absence of evidence for the claim, is taken as
proof of the claim.

Let's put it this way, if you get caught selling weed (marked money and
all) and they find your (expensive I personally know...) grow room,
weapons and all kind of ****, what do you expect ? Well with a lawyer he
lost, but operating pro se he won the appeal. But that should have
happened the first time because unbeknownst to most people, if you win
the appeal you are still convicted.

Cite, please?

There are bunch of different meanings to "win an appeal". The appeal
court may overturn the conviction entirely and dismiss the case, in
which case the conviction "never happened". The appeal court may rule
that the conviction was made in error, and remand the case back to the
lower court to correct the error (in which case the case must be
re-tried, or dismissed by the prosecution). The appeal court may rule
that the _sentence_ was in error, and either adjust the sentence
itself or remand the case back to the trial court for adjustment - in
which case the conviction remains.

In some cases, judges go so far as to overturn a conviction with a
"declaration of factual innocence", which is not just a "We don't
think he was proven guilty" but "we are declaring that he was _not_
guilty." This tends to occur in cases where there was a serious
miscarriage of justice in the prosecution of the original case.

Actually the same is true of a
presidential pardon.

In that you're quite correct... there's good legal precedent that
accepting a presidental (or governer's) pardon, consistitutes an
admission of guilt on your part.

A person who has been convicted is _not_ obligated to accept a
pardon. He/she can decline the pardon, and continue to pursue an
appeal to overturn the conviction or gain a new trial... and if he/she
has the conviction reversed on appeal, and isn't re-convicted in a
second trial, then the "innocent until proven guilty" rule applies.

On 4/6/18 5:52 PM, wrote:

[ snip ]

You're doing it again.
Amateur radio licensing has NOTHING to do with you opinions
on tax law.

--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

"Amateur radio licensing has NOTHING to do with you opinions
on tax law. "

And your acoustically coupled MODEM is ?

Just what have YOU contributed that is on topic ?

That is even less relevant, at least I can say that if the OP is concerned with privacy against an ever invasive government it is at least related.

Your sole on topic post was "Just do it and get over yourself". That is constructive ? That is useful ?

Tell you what, YOU get over YOURSELF Snit.

There are those who better pray that I never catch cancer and am going to die soon because I might just decide to do the world a few favors.

On 4/7/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
Tell you what, YOU get over YOURSELF Snit.

Bwahahaha, Et tu Brutus?

Careful there son, or people are going to think you're that
asshole troll.

There are those who better pray that I never catch cancer
and am going to die soon because I might just decide to do
the world a few favors.

Oooh, vague death threats.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side

It's s time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step out of line, the men come and take you away

Rest assured. The "Man" knows about you, what you eat, your browsing habits, pretty much everything there is to know about your sex life and much more..

The single question you must ask is how much you will let that affect your life as it *WILL NOT CHANGE*. Frankly, I don't give a damn as I don't have one single thing going on in my life such that the "Man" knowing would make one scintilla of a difference.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

On 4/7/18 6:25 PM, wrote:
Not enough people would do it but I have a plan.

And this has even LESS to with Amateur radio than the
other rambling **** you've posted.

--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

"And this has even LESS to with Amateur radio than the
other rambling **** you've posted. "

Nope, privacy issue.

About that acoustically coupled MODEM again ? How about the model and specs. Do you have a schematic ?

On 04/07/2018 01:46 PM, peter wieck wrote:
What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side

It's s time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step out of line, the men come and take you away

Rest assured. The "Man" knows about you, what you eat, your browsing habits, pretty much everything there is to know about your sex life and much more.

Ha ha ha, I bet he's jealous on the last point too

The single question you must ask is how much you will let that affect your life as it *WILL NOT CHANGE*. Frankly, I don't give a damn as I don't have one single thing going on in my life such that the "Man" knowing would make one scintilla of a difference.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

On 4/7/18 10:47 PM, wrote:

[ more nonsense deleted ]

You know you're wrong, or you wouldn't be playing "Whataboutism?"


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com