Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Default HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F

A friend of mine sent me a rather cryptic message.
Apparently he's got one of these scopes that's decided it
doesn't have to do what its supposed to.

Not reading anything on the inputs
Then it will loose one channel

I guess for a start got a link for the manual?

--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com
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On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 7:07:00 PM UTC-5, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
A friend of mine sent me a rather cryptic message.
Apparently he's got one of these scopes that's decided it
doesn't have to do what its supposed to.

Not reading anything on the inputs
Then it will loose one channel

I guess for a start got a link for the manual?

--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com


I had a related scope -- V152F -- and they are not very capable nor fast. Triggering is pretty good for the era. Really probably not worth putting any time or money into.
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On 3/16/18 7:27 PM, Terry Schwartz wrote:
I had a related scope -- V152F -- and they are not very
capable nor fast. Triggering is pretty good for the era.
Really probably not worth putting any time or money into.


It was a request from a friend of mine, Peter, in Australia.
The scope belongs to his friend Phil.

I just got off of Skype with them a few minutes ago.

Apparently Channel 1 died about 4 years ago, and recently
Channel 2 died.

Phil says it's his only scope, so he's sort of dead in the
water right now.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com
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"Apparently Channel 1 died about 4 years ago, and recently
Channel 2 died. "

Shame, if you would have worked on it then you would have a good channel for comparison. Like in a stereo, using one channel as the reference for the other.

Couldn't find a print on it.

What do you mean died ? Did the trace stop moving or did it disappear ? If it disappeared the first thing to look at it the voltage on the deflection plates. If they are equal look to the blanking circuit.

This is not going to be easy without service information.
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So, how much did this piece of crap cost new?
And how many hours did you waste "fixing" it?

:-)


On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 7:48:23 AM UTC-5, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
On 3/16/18 11:57 PM, wrote:
What do you mean died ? Did the trace stop moving or
did it disappear ?


No response to vertical input.

Both traces are present, position works, sweep varies
etc.

It just acts as if you weren't plugged into the input.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com


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On 3/17/18 9:12 AM, Terry Schwartz wrote:
So, how much did this piece of crap cost new?
And how many hours did you waste "fixing" it?


Bwahahaha, It's not mine, and so far, I'm into it about 10 minutes.
It's in Australia so I don't have to work on it.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com
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"Both traces are present, position works, sweep varies
etc. "

Excellent, now we can go from there. I am not an expert in scopes but I am, or at least was an expert troubleshooter.

Each trace is controlled by the proper position control without abnormal interaction between the two. It shows both traces simultaneously in chop or alternate. If this is all true that means the output and the channel switching circuits are working properly.

One question, relevant but not of prime importance, does you friend always use the X10 probe ? ALWAYS use the X10 probe unless you need the gain afforded by the X1 probe. this protects the front end of the scope and lowers circuit loading during testing. Since he cannot fix it himself he might not know this. Ask and tell when you get the chance. There is a chance that he actually caused the failure if the one channel in the past and then this channel now if he does not use the X10 probe(s).

Regardless we still have a direction. there is a slight difference though, if he used the X10 all the time we are looking for a fault that just happened, if he uses the X1 we might be looking at something else. But that does not stop us in our tracks.

You are going to need, at minimum a signal generator or a working scope to fix this. If DC voltages would reveal the problem most likely the trace would be off the screen on affected channel(s). Since it is not we are dealing with a dynamic situation, not a static one.

The attenuator is not likely to develop a fault that would cause no response in any range, before it is suspect as is after. There is nothing active before the attenuator except the AC/DC switch which is easily tested. Then we have the possibility of him causing a low value resistor there to open either by excessive slewing in the input signal or overvoltage slamming against clamping diodes. That is eliminated with a signal generator. It is all high impedance so take a generator trough a 2K resistor to the portions of the switch and see if you get deflection. If so it is right up front, if not, it is after the attenuator. A 1 KHz square wave is usually sufficient. About 10 volts P-P should get a rise out of it. If it is extremely distorted though it is still after the attenuator.

Then you need to find where the signal goes. If it is single sided PCB it is not all that hard. Point to point and multilayer PCBs bring in magnitudes of increased difficulty. But you can still look for identical components.

Being Hitachi and not HP or Tak is actually an advantage here. It is likely that the parts are not house markeds and thus can be researched. Like to get the pinouts of ICs and the specs on transistors. And being Japanese, or at least conforming to their standard rather than JEDEC or whatever, on transistors the collector is usually in the middle. It is much eeasier to determone of it is BCE or ECB than the US way. Actuially some European standards are like those of the US, but Hitachi is usually going to be BCE or ECB, unless it is a really high frequency transistor in which case it could be BEC or CEB. If it is like a 20 MHz scope or so you can almost count on it being BCE or ECB. Too bad don' t remember my login for Hitachi from my working days. If I find it I will get the print and somehow supply it, though I have no hosting right now. Maybe I could email it to someone who does or perhaps contribute it to BAMA or some other free file place.

But for now we must do without.

So now, look for the switching circuit as well, it will have at least 4 diodes per channel, high speed and it will be directly before the main vertical output amp. the generator with the resistor may help. Always use the resistor because otherwise you might cause further problems. And be on the lookout for a very small result on the screen because some of the stages might be mainly current driven. that means low impedance. just be attentive.

Get back here with a list of equipment you can use on this in the way of generators and working scopes and either their specs or model numbers. Don't reply via email. Put it out here so we can get input from others or perhaps help someone. I avoid doing this by email for those reasons. In fact I check this group more...

I will watch for your response.The 2K value for the resistor is not etched in stone, 1K would do but... and 5K would do but...

Just find out what you can.
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Oh, you are ot going to be able to do this yourself ? i forgot that part. It looks like your friend is in for some work and education. just forward all this to him and get his responses or whatever.

How else would it get done ?
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Last but not least, those who say it is not worth your time, fukum. (well not really)

They have no idea what your time is worth to you.

They have no idea what your friendship is worth to you.

They have no idea what new knowledge and techniques are worth to you.

And, analog scopes are "the bomb" in contemporary vernacular. As you teach with one you slow down the sweep so they can actually see the trace move as you connect a battery, or a speaker output from an amp. I think the study of analog scopes should be mandatory in schools at least in the beginning when they learn the basics. If you can rig up simultaneous voltage and current sensing you can demonstrate reactance, power factor and all kinds of **** in real time. You can make them understand for real rather than just able to do the math. The young need this knowledge for all that is to come, and there is no better way to instill it. I will try to save almost any DC capable scope that has triggered sweep and a decent graticule.


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"but any chance he first had one and now two broken probes? Most of us would assume he'd try to swap probes after the first channel went out but..."

Impugn all you want, you are right. It is possible he only has two probes.

Getting this down Fox's ? Stick something in the hole in the BNC connector on the scope and see if you get anything out of it. Sorry, I assume things like this have been eliminated but I have been burned a few times.

A thin gauge wire on a resistor or cap will fit in there. If this has already been checked - disregard.

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I love when someone declares himself an "expert".

I've been in this field 40+ years and I learn something every day I work on electronics.

I hope I am never so pompous as to consider myself an "expert".


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On Sunday, March 18, 2018 at 9:44:03 AM UTC-5, Terry Schwartz wrote:
I love when someone declares himself an "expert".

I've been in this field 40+ years and I learn something every day I work on electronics.

I hope I am never so pompous as to consider myself an "expert".


You probably are an expert. There is nothing that says that experts do not continue to learn, in fact, quite the contrary.

No need for excessive humility, you got bona fides then let it be known. I have done things that would blow most peoples' minds, want a listing of some of them ? You probably have as well, that might make a good thread actually, the unusual.
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"However, the vertical would "thicken" in response to the cell phone
transmitting it it was close enough to the scope"

Next question; does the amount of thickening (amplitude) change with the setting of the volts/div ?
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On Sunday, 18 March 2018 03:46:12 UTC, wrote:

Last but not least, those who say it is not worth your time, fukum. (well not really)

They have no idea what your time is worth to you.

They have no idea what your friendship is worth to you.

They have no idea what new knowledge and techniques are worth to you.

And, analog scopes are "the bomb" in contemporary vernacular. As you teach with one you slow down the sweep so they can actually see the trace move as you connect a battery, or a speaker output from an amp. I think the study of analog scopes should be mandatory in schools at least in the beginning when they learn the basics. If you can rig up simultaneous voltage and current sensing you can demonstrate reactance, power factor and all kinds of **** in real time. You can make them understand for real rather than just able to do the math. The young need this knowledge for all that is to come, and there is no better way to instill it. I will try to save almost any DC capable scope that has triggered sweep and a decent graticule.


30 years ago I was offered a 1940s scope for £4. I said that was far too much.
ISTR they had 2 line speeds, nothing more than a pot to select vertical sensitivity, no graticule & plenty of distortion on a 2 or 3" round CRT etc. As basic as it gets.


NT
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On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 12:57:46 AM UTC-4, wrote:
"Apparently Channel 1 died about 4 years ago, and recently

Channel 2 died. "

Shame, if you would have worked on it then you would have a good channel for comparison. Like in a stereo, using one channel as the reference for the other.

Couldn't find a print on it.

What do you mean died ? Did the trace stop moving or did it disappear ? If it disappeared the first thing to look at it the voltage on the deflection plates. If they are equal look to the blanking circuit.

This is not going to be easy without service information.


You have to wonder what would happen to it if a bunch of water from the second floor dripped down on it.
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That seems unlikely, since they are "down under". Everything is backwards there -- water drips UP from the basement to the upper floors.

You have to wonder what would happen to it if a bunch of water from the second floor dripped down on it.




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On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 8:57:35 AM UTC-4, Terry Schwartz wrote:
That seems unlikely, since they are "down under". Everything is backwards there -- water drips UP from the basement to the upper floors.

You have to wonder what would happen to it if a bunch of water from the second floor dripped down on it.


There is that!

But, one of the nice things about doing "this" as a hobby, is that I have plausible deniability when it comes to expertise. But, over the last 45+/- years, some stuff has stuck.

I have started a new job in a hospital/med-school setting. One of the researchers develops and makes artificial hearts - we had a long discussion on bearings the other day.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 8:54:41 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 8:57:35 AM UTC-4, Terry Schwartz wrote:
That seems unlikely, since they are "down under". Everything is backwards there -- water drips UP from the basement to the upper floors.

You have to wonder what would happen to it if a bunch of water from the second floor dripped down on it.


There is that!

But, one of the nice things about doing "this" as a hobby, is that I have plausible deniability when it comes to expertise. But, over the last 45+/- years, some stuff has stuck.

I have started a new job in a hospital/med-school setting. One of the researchers develops and makes artificial hearts - we had a long discussion on bearings the other day.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


Peter, if I ever need an artificial heart, please let the researcher know I want mine with good old Merican bearings. The Chinese bearings are of notoriously poor quality.

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On 3/16/2018 5:06 PM, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
A friend of mine sent me a rather cryptic message.
Apparently he's got one of these scopes that's decided it
doesn't have to do what its supposed to.

Not reading anything on the inputs
Then it will loose one channel

I guess for a start got a link for the manual?


Hi Jeff,

I'm obviously late to this party but I found something that might help.
The following link is to a manual for the Hitachi V-152F. Judging from
the front panel layout, I think it might be a stripped down 15 MHz
version of your friend's scope. A schematic is included:

https://sonsofinvention.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/hitachi-v-152f-oscilloscope-operation-manual/

SS
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"I'm obviously late to this party but I found something that might help. The following link is to a manual for the Hitachi V-152F."

Might help. Engineers to not reinvent the wheel for every different model.

Why does that display like a Wordpress page when it is in Dropbox ? I dropped Dropbox because it is not compatible with my computers and because they did away with the simple "Get Public URL" which would take a browser directly to a file and in fact could be used to host webpages, which I did. Small, but pages with links nonetheless.

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On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 4:09:43 PM UTC-4, wrote:
"I'm obviously late to this party but I found something that might help. The following link is to a manual for the Hitachi V-152F."


Might help. Engineers to not reinvent the wheel for every different model..

Why does that display like a Wordpress page when it is in Dropbox ? I dropped Dropbox because it is not compatible with my computers and because they did away with the simple "Get Public URL" which would take a browser directly to a file and in fact could be used to host webpages, which I did. Small, but pages with links nonetheless.




Here's a V -209 and a V-302. Not much to them:

https://elektrotanya.com/hitachi_v-3.../download.html

https://elektrotanya.com/hitachi_v-2.../download.html
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That might help. Looking at three of them can get you some insight into the engineer's head.

I will do that tomorrow. Right now I am pretty well inebriated.

No, actually drunk.

Tomorrow. owe I thinkI amaboutto get themunchies.

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On 19/03/18 19:37, Mike Coon wrote:
In article , lid
says...

I think I paid £5 around 1963 for a Cossor 3339 (or maybe 339) from Z&I
Aero in Tottenham Court Road. It weighed a ton and I never did get it to
work.


Was that the one with the sloping top part of the front panel, like a
Mansard roof (or something)? I remember Z&I Aero too, though I don't
think I would have visited London much in the early 1960s, beyond
school-leaving interviews...


Not as far as I remember. Picture of 339A he
http://www.thevalvepage.com/testeq/cossor/339a/339a.htm

Manual he
http://www.vmarsmanuals.co.uk/archive/4869_Cossor_339_Oscillograph_Manual.pdf

Being a Londoner, I could spend quite a bit of time in Tottenham Court
Road (and Lisle Street). There were quite a few "government surplus"
shops selling WWII stuff, including some USA Tx and Rx units. I
remember buying something with acorn valves; IIRC, a BC-624 VHF Rx. This
was for 100 - 156MHz (or should I say Mc/s in old money?!). It was
bought to scrap; at the time I couldn't even find out what it needed to
operate, other than it had a socket marked "dynamotor".

Not much surplus around in the UK now, although a year or so ago I got
an ex-Vulcan Green Satin ground radar doppler unit as a Christmas
present for a Vulcan enthusiast. I wonder where it had been stored since
it was scrapped in 1984? No semiconductors, by the way - just submin
valves. No doubt better at surviving an EMP from a hydrogen bomb, but
would there be anywhere to land?

--

Jeff
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On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 20:46:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Last but not least, those who say it is not worth your time, fukum. (well not really)

They have no idea what your time is worth to you.

They have no idea what your friendship is worth to you.

They have no idea what new knowledge and techniques are worth to you.

And, analog scopes are "the bomb" in contemporary vernacular. As you teach with one you slow down the sweep so they can actually see the trace move as you connect a battery, or a speaker output from an amp. I think the study of analog scopes should be mandatory in schools at least in the beginning when they learn the basics. If you can rig up simultaneous voltage and current sensing you can demonstrate reactance, power factor and all kinds of **** in real time. You can make them understand for real rather than just able to do the math. The young need this knowledge for all that is to come, and there is no better way to instill it. I will try to save almost any DC capable scope that has triggered sweep and a decent graticule.

I have a TEK 465B. When I was learning to use it I was really jazzed
when I watched the discharge of some capacitance in a CNC control I
was diagnosing. I don't know how well a digital scope would show that
as I have no experience with digital scopes.
Eric


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"Not sure if a more expensive one would do better or not
for this. "

I think it is a limitation of the design. Digital scopes simply are not the same.
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On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 9:14:44 PM UTC-5, wrote:
"Not sure if a more expensive one would do better or not

for this. "

I think it is a limitation of the design. Digital scopes simply are not the same.


That's crap. I can make my digital scope do anything an analog or storage scope can do, and much more, better, faster, and save the waveforms indefinitely. I can make it act exactly like an analog scope if I want, with much higher resolution, bandwidth, and I'm not limited to seeing one width of the screen. In every way including triggering, the digital scope is more sophisticated and capable. I frankly can't imagine a reason to go back and use an analog scope.
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'I can make it act exactly like an analog scope if I want,"

Oh yeah ? let's see the dot moving across the screen at 1 second per division and demonstrate it principle to students with a battery. I want to see it. A continuous dot moving slowly across the screen. I would bet a case of beer that you can't. Even a raster scan scope can't do it as far as I have seen.

Do you have a really special one ? If not, it will blip blip blip refreshing the display and will not give you the dot moving slowly across the screen.. If I am wrong, please supply me the make and model and I will reconsider and possibly retract.
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On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 2:33:51 AM UTC-5, wrote:
'I can make it act exactly like an analog scope if I want,"


Oh yeah ? let's see the dot moving across the screen at 1 second per division and demonstrate it principle to students with a battery. I want to see it. A continuous dot moving slowly across the screen. I would bet a case of beer that you can't. Even a raster scan scope can't do it as far as I have seen.

Do you have a really special one ? If not, it will blip blip blip refreshing the display and will not give you the dot moving slowly across the screen. If I am wrong, please supply me the make and model and I will reconsider and possibly retract.


One of my daily use digital scopes at work is an old Tek TDS460a, it'll scan across the screen as slow as 20 seconds/division. It's not a crude dot, it's a real digitized scan with infinite persistence. I can easily demonstrate your simple battery voltage test. It also has a 400 MHz bandwidth for doing actual useful things.

How is a moving dot superior to a captured scan that one can actually see even after the signal is gone, measure with cursors, perform math functions on, overlay onto other measurements, store as a reference for recall later, label the axis's, print out, convert to a datastream, export to a file, recreate on a PC,..... ????? This is a very old CRT digital scope, the more modern LCD scopes are even more capable.

Analog scopes had their day. That day is over. Test drive any modern digital scope and you'll never look back.

You could still drive a Model T cross country, but would you?


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On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 17:56:47 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

'I can make it act exactly like an analog scope if I want,"


Oh yeah ? let's see the dot moving across the screen at 1 second per division and demonstrate it principle to students with a battery. I want to see it. A continuous dot moving slowly across the screen. I would bet a case of beer that you can't. Even a raster scan scope can't do it as far as I have seen.

Do you have a really special one ? If not, it will blip blip blip refreshing the display and will not give you the dot moving slowly across the screen. If I am wrong, please supply me the make and model and I will reconsider and possibly retract.



My digital scope is an inexpensive Hantek and it draws a line like a
pencil going across the page. At very low sweep speeds like one second
or even less it makes it eaasy to see a waveform where the 465B with
just the blip going across makes it difficult to tell what the waveform
is.

Still my gripe is the Lissajous paterns will not display very well on
the digital scope.

As in most cases it is good to have a choice between analog and
digital test equipment. Sometimes one seems to suit the situation
better than another.

I don't really need a digital scope, and from what I have read about
them 100 MHz is pretty low for a lot of work. But the Hantek ones do
get good reviews and are fairly cheap. So I might get one just for
fun.
Eric
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"One of my daily use digital scopes at work is an old Tek TDS460a, it'll scan across the screen as slow as 20 seconds/division."

In my albeit limited experience with sampling scopes I have never seen one do that. I also noticed like noise in the trace that was indiscernable which I thought would be on an analog scope.

I guess I'll have to test drive one. Speaking of driving :

"You could still drive a Model T cross country, but would you? "


Yes I would and I would love every minute of it. But I admiot that it would not be a daily driver.

"Analog scopes had their day. That day is over."


Not as long as they work. You know there are people who can't stand an LCD TV. I have read that some have a wider optical response to the spectrum, perhaps that is the reason. But they either stick with CRT TVs or buy a plasma, I guess because it is actually a phosphor screen.

But so far I have never met a digital scope I liked. Of course that may change in time.
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"
My digital scope is an inexpensive Hantek and it draws a line like a
pencil going across the page. At very low sweep speeds like one second
or even less it makes it eaasy to see a waveform where the 465B with
just the blip going across makes it difficult to tell what the waveform is"

As I told Terry S., I have never seen a digital scope do that. And emulating a variable persistence CRT, well that is cool as well. i still like the old scopes. If I were a billionaire I would but an older car. A 1960s or 70s high powered gas guzzling monster that should be licensed as a deadly weapon. My first car was a 1970 Olds Toronado, I still had passing gear at 105 MPH. I know newer cars with much smaller engines can go just as fast, but this thing did it effortlessly. P{ush a 4 cylinder to those limits and you are beating on it. Variable valve timing and direct cylinder injection is nice but it has thousands more moving parts. To move is to wear.

Maybe I am an old fuddy duddy, but I like it, and the old music. I welcome a lawsuit from RIAA because the gigs of music I downloaded used to be in public domain. In fact even movies. Everything I like is old. New and improved is an anethma to me.
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Default HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 4:09:43 PM UTC-4, wrote:
"I'm obviously late to this party but I found something that might help. The following link is to a manual for the Hitachi V-152F."


Might help. Engineers to not reinvent the wheel for every different model.

Why does that display like a Wordpress page when it is in Dropbox ?


It was programmed to. By you? Someone else? Malware?
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