Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Default Removing battery corrosion

I got an old AM-FM pocket transistor radio which looked good and clean
till I opened the battery compartment. Very corroded carbon zinc
batteries were in it. After removing them, I cleaned off as much of the
corrosion as possible by scraping with a plastic stick, and scrubbing
with q-tips and rubbing alcohol. That got rid of most of it, and I was
surprised to find the battery clips are not badly damaged, but I had to
use a fingernail file (sandpaper strip) on the ends of the springs.

Better yet, the radio works perfectly.

But there is still a little of that battery corrosion still in there. In
all the years I've worked on electronics, I have never found a perfect
way to clean up leaked batteries. Is there some sort of spray or a
chemical that will dissolve or deactivate that crap?

Of course it has to be safe for the circuit board and components too. I
use the 91% isopropyl alcohol, so it evaporates quickly and leaves
little water residue behind. (Then leave it dry well before use).

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On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 5:53:57 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I got an old AM-FM pocket transistor radio which looked good and clean
till I opened the battery compartment. Very corroded carbon zinc
batteries were in it. After removing them, I cleaned off as much of the
corrosion as possible by scraping with a plastic stick, and scrubbing
with q-tips and rubbing alcohol. That got rid of most of it, and I was
surprised to find the battery clips are not badly damaged, but I had to
use a fingernail file (sandpaper strip) on the ends of the springs.

Better yet, the radio works perfectly.

But there is still a little of that battery corrosion still in there. In
all the years I've worked on electronics, I have never found a perfect
way to clean up leaked batteries. Is there some sort of spray or a
chemical that will dissolve or deactivate that crap?

Of course it has to be safe for the circuit board and components too. I
use the 91% isopropyl alcohol, so it evaporates quickly and leaves
little water residue behind. (Then leave it dry well before use).


My sovereign cleaning method for this is to use a very strong concentration of baking soda mixed into distilled water. About a tablespoon of soda into a teaspoon of water to make a paste. This will neutralize any corrosives from the batteries - but the material is highly conductive in its own right. So, after application with a small toothbrush or spiral brush, rinse again as yo have with distilled water, then alcohol to displace the water.

If severe, and the alternative is landfill - I have been known to run an entire chassis through the dishwasher (one without an exposed Calrod), or use a bit of lye-based oven cleaner on a cotton swab - again rinse carefully when done. Needs must when the devil rides.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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Default Removing battery corrosion

In article ,
says...

But there is still a little of that battery corrosion still in there. In
all the years I've worked on electronics, I have never found a perfect
way to clean up leaked batteries. Is there some sort of spray or a
chemical that will dissolve or deactivate that crap?

Of course it has to be safe for the circuit board and components too. I
use the 91% isopropyl alcohol, so it evaporates quickly and leaves
little water residue behind. (Then leave it dry well before use).


My sovereign cleaning method for this is to use a very strong concentration of baking soda mixed into distilled water. About a tablespoon of soda into a teaspoon of water to make a paste. This will neutralize any corrosives from the batteries - but the material is highly conductive in its own right. So, after application with a

small toothbrush or spiral brush, rinse again as yo have with distilled water, then alcohol to displace the water.

If severe, and the alternative is landfill - I have been known to run an entire chassis through the dishwasher (one without an exposed Calrod), or use a bit of lye-based oven cleaner on a cotton swab - again rinse carefully when done. Needs must when the devil rides.




As most of the batteries used in portable devices are some type of
alkaline the baking soda is the opposit of what should be used. White
vinegar is what you should be using to neutralize it.

I am not sure what the very old carbon zinc batteries used, it may have
been a from of acid. I know the car batteries use acid and the baking
soda is good for that. Just not good for the newer smaller AA,C,D type
batteries.

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On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 7:51:25 AM UTC-5, wrote:


If severe, and the alternative is landfill - I have been known to run an entire chassis through the dishwasher (one without an exposed Calrod)


Back when projection TVs were plagued with coolant leaks, I used to soak the entire circuit board in an ammonia and soap solution. But *first*, everything that can trap water must be removed. Back then, that meant SMPS transformer, HOT and flyback XFRs, inductors,etc. A lot of work but it fixed stubborn symptoms and no call backs.

In a transistor radio, this means removing the IF transformers, audio transformer, and even removing the gang tuner is a good idea.

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Default Removing battery corrosion

On Sunday, 11 February 2018 10:53:57 UTC, wrote:
I got an old AM-FM pocket transistor radio which looked good and clean
till I opened the battery compartment. Very corroded carbon zinc
batteries were in it. After removing them, I cleaned off as much of the
corrosion as possible by scraping with a plastic stick, and scrubbing
with q-tips and rubbing alcohol. That got rid of most of it, and I was
surprised to find the battery clips are not badly damaged, but I had to
use a fingernail file (sandpaper strip) on the ends of the springs.

Better yet, the radio works perfectly.

But there is still a little of that battery corrosion still in there. In
all the years I've worked on electronics, I have never found a perfect
way to clean up leaked batteries. Is there some sort of spray or a
chemical that will dissolve or deactivate that crap?

Of course it has to be safe for the circuit board and components too. I
use the 91% isopropyl alcohol, so it evaporates quickly and leaves
little water residue behind. (Then leave it dry well before use).


I did one yesterday, got what I could off some bent flat strip with a screwdriver, got the remainder off with a grinder. A dishwasher is more often the suitable treatment, but as has been said there are some parts definitely not dishwashable. Speakers, unpotted relays, variable caps, paper caps, transformers, some other stuff.


NT


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Default Removing battery corrosion

Ralph Mowery schrieb:

[...]
As most of the batteries used in portable devices are some type of
alkaline the baking soda is the opposit of what should be used. White
vinegar is what you should be using to neutralize it.


Full ack!

Regards

Reinhard
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Default Removing battery corrosion

On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 10:23:41 AM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:

As most of the batteries used in portable devices are some type of
alkaline the baking soda is the opposit of what should be used. White
vinegar is what you should be using to neutralize it.

I am not sure what the very old carbon zinc batteries used, it may have
been a from of acid. I know the car batteries use acid and the baking
soda is good for that. Just not good for the newer smaller AA,C,D type
batteries.


LeClanche cells are acid-based (Ammonium CLoride) with an acidic pH (depending on the age of the cell) from about 6 (nearly dead) to about 4.6 (fresh). Hence the pointer to baking soda.

Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) is about pH 8.4 when dissolved in water. Household vinegar is pH 2.4, and will tear copper apart.

The neutralizing agent wants to be slow and mild. Vinegar (acetic acid) is pretty strong.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 20:35:56 +0100, Look165
wrote:

Since this layer is alcaline, the best to use an acid ; vinegar for
instance.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_battery#Leaks
Yep. The white stuff from an alkaline cell is potassium carbonate and
has a pH of about 11 in water:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_carbonate
Vinegar works, but citric acid (lemon juice) smells better. If the
cleaner produces gas bubbles, it's working. However, I don't think it
matters much. I use 409 household cleaner which has a pH of 9 to 11.5
depending on concentration:
http://www.gjfood.com/pdf/msds/79_820040.pdf
It produces some bubbles, does a good job of cleaning, and smells ok.

The white stuff that leaks out of carbon zinc battery is the zinc
chloride electrolyte:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc%E2%80%93carbon_battery#Durability
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_chloride
Zinc chloride in water is very acidic with a pH of 2.0 to 3.0
depending on concentration. It's very soluble in water so any water
based alkaline cleaner, such as houshold ammonia, should work.



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On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 14:35:43 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

The white stuff that leaks out of carbon zinc battery is the zinc
chloride electrolyte:


Oops. Zinc chloride is the crud that leaks out of the battery. The
electrolyte is ammonium chloride.

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On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 04:51:20 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

a very strong concentration of baking soda mixed into distilled water.


This makes sense, but I have to ask why regular tap water wont work V/S
distilled water? I know that adding water to a car battery should be
distilled, (so it dont have any minerals), but in this case, it would
seem that any clean water would work.

But maybe I am missing something. Yet, I do try to eliminate unnecessary
expenses, and distilled water adds to the cost, not to mention an extra
trip to a store, since it's not something I keep on hand.

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On 11/02/18 23:38, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 14:35:43 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

The white stuff that leaks out of carbon zinc battery is the zinc
chloride electrolyte:


Oops. Zinc chloride is the crud that leaks out of the battery. The
electrolyte is ammonium chloride.


Zinc chloride actually attracts so much water that it dissolves in it,
as I found out when I tried to crystallize the stuff.

Jeroen Belleman
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On Mon, 12 Feb 2018 00:31:54 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
wrote:

On 11/02/18 23:38, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 14:35:43 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

The white stuff that leaks out of carbon zinc battery is the zinc
chloride electrolyte:


Oops. Zinc chloride is the crud that leaks out of the battery. The
electrolyte is ammonium chloride.


Zinc chloride actually attracts so much water that it dissolves in it,
as I found out when I tried to crystallize the stuff.

Jeroen Belleman


What were you trying to make? Soldering flux (usually a mix of zinc
chloride and hydrochloric acid)? Don't use it on electronics as it's
conductive.

--
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150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
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Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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Default Removing battery corrosion

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2018 00:31:54 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
wrote:

On 11/02/18 23:38, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 14:35:43 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

The white stuff that leaks out of carbon zinc battery is the zinc
chloride electrolyte:
Oops. Zinc chloride is the crud that leaks out of the battery. The
electrolyte is ammonium chloride.


Zinc chloride actually attracts so much water that it dissolves in it,
as I found out when I tried to crystallize the stuff.

Jeroen Belleman


What were you trying to make? Soldering flux (usually a mix of zinc
chloride and hydrochloric acid)? Don't use it on electronics as it's
conductive.


Nah! Just part of a high school chemistry course 45 years ago.

Jeroen Belleman


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On Mon, 12 Feb 2018 08:38:22 -0000, Mike Coon
wrote:

In article ,
says...

But maybe I am missing something. Yet, I do try to eliminate

unnecessary
expenses, and distilled water adds to the cost, not to mention an extra
trip to a store, since it's not something I keep on hand.


What do you put in your steam iron? That's where most of my
distilled/de-ionised water goes...

Mike.


Steam iron? Do they still use those things?
I recall my mother using one in the 1950s and 60s....

Either way. blue jeans and flannels shirts dont need ironing...
That's about all of us rural folks wear, aside from our camo hunting
clothes.

I did once hear of a guy trying to iron his birthday suit, after
drinking a lot of shine.... Luckily his wife ironed his head with a cast
iron frying pan before he damaged too much of his birthday suit. and she
then sent him to bed.

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Default Removing battery corrosion

"Back when projection TVs were plagued with coolant leaks, I used to soak the entire circuit board in an ammonia and soap solution. But *first*, everything that can trap water must be removed. Back then, that meant SMPS transformer, HOT and flyback XFRs, inductors,etc. A lot of work but it fixed stubborn symptoms and no call backs. "

I had a different technique. I washed it in hot water, then alcohol, then acetone with a brush and then blew dried it on hot to evaporate everything. And then sprayed with spray solvent to make it cold. That squeezes the **** out of the board, which is quite porous. Repeated about 4 times. The last time left the acetone or alcohol on it, heated it up with the blow dryer and waited a while until you could not smell it anymore.

The worst part was when it corroded the copper traces. Can't solder to them, must get all the way to the point where it is no longer dark and add a jump[er.And also extra clean that area because there is more conductive **** in it. It is actually in the board and you can see bubbles when you heat it..

I remember old AA and AB GE chassis bubbling under the solder on the gripletts which impeded their soldering. And those were about 90 % of the problems with those sets.
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On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 17:41:13 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:


What were you trying to make? Soldering flux (usually a mix of zinc
chloride and hydrochloric acid)? Don't use it on electronics as it's
conductive.


That's acid plumbing solder for copper pipes.

But you brought up a question. Electrical solder is rosin. What exactly
is roisn and how does it work for a flux? Is it the same thing used for
playing a violin, which as far as I know, is made from pine tree sap?

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On Monday, 12 February 2018 10:41:52 UTC, wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 17:41:13 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:


What were you trying to make? Soldering flux (usually a mix of zinc
chloride and hydrochloric acid)? Don't use it on electronics as it's
conductive.


That's acid plumbing solder for copper pipes.

But you brought up a question. Electrical solder is rosin. What exactly
is roisn and how does it work for a flux? Is it the same thing used for
playing a violin, which as far as I know, is made from pine tree sap?


that's what it is. Just take pine resin & heat to drive off the volatiles. You can get 25-50kg resin per tonne of wood pulp, but only from pine. Spruce gives less.


NT


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On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 5:40:36 AM UTC-5, wrote:
"Back when projection TVs were plagued with coolant leaks, I used to soak the entire circuit board in an ammonia and soap solution. But *first*, everything that can trap water must be removed. Back then, that meant SMPS transformer, HOT and flyback XFRs, inductors,etc. A lot of work but it fixed stubborn symptoms and no call backs. "


I had a different technique. I washed it in hot water, then alcohol, then acetone with a brush and then blew dried it on hot to evaporate everything.. And then sprayed with spray solvent to make it cold. That squeezes the **** out of the board, which is quite porous. Repeated about 4 times. The last time left the acetone or alcohol on it, heated it up with the blow dryer and waited a while until you could not smell it anymore.


Seems like a lot more work than a one step soak. We received a bulletin from RCA about coolant leaks, and they suggested ammonia based detergents as the most effective way of removing the coolant and it's associated contamination. I had a PTK195 that would do all sorts of very intermittent weird things in the vertical circuit even after a regular cleaning. I found a product called Parson's Sudsy Ammonia and used that diluted in a parts washer. The board were spotless and even glossy after drying.



I remember old AA and AB GE chassis bubbling under the solder on the gripletts which impeded their soldering. And those were about 90 % of the problems with those sets.


My brother (the hero) used to hard wire those GEs through the griplets but I used to just solder the bottom, solder the top, then resolder the bottom again and give it a good spay of Flux-Off (the original stuff). That took less time than it might seem and they never came back.
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On Mon, 12 Feb 2018 03:00:35 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, 12 February 2018 10:41:52 UTC, wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 17:41:13 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:


What were you trying to make? Soldering flux (usually a mix of zinc
chloride and hydrochloric acid)? Don't use it on electronics as it's
conductive.


That's acid plumbing solder for copper pipes.

But you brought up a question. Electrical solder is rosin. What exactly
is roisn and how does it work for a flux? Is it the same thing used for
playing a violin, which as far as I know, is made from pine tree sap?


that's what it is. Just take pine resin & heat to drive off the volatiles.
You can get 25-50kg resin per tonne of wood pulp, but only from pine.
Spruce gives less.
NT


Yep. I've made my own rosin flux. Lots of instructions online for
both paste and liquid flux:
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+make+rosin+flux

However, things went awry when I tried to use my home made flux for
reflow soldering a BGA chip. It was too thick and too difficult to
clean after resoldering. When I dissolved it in some alcohol to thin
out the solution, I had a small fire. It also disappeared long before
the solder melted. I ordered "reflow flux" which is designed for
reflow soldering, which worked much better:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=reflow+flux
Such fluxes are either active or mildly active. Such rosin fluxes
contain abietic acid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abietic_acid
which acts as an oxidation inhibitor. Other additives break down when
heated and produce hydrochloric acid or ammonia for the same effect.
You could mix your own formulation, but I suggest buying the
commercial product when dealing with anything that requires
temperature control (such as BGA chips) or thorough board cleaning.

--
Jeff Liebermann

150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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On Mon, 12 Feb 2018 08:38:22 -0000, Mike Coon
wrote:

What do you put in your steam iron? That's where most of my
distilled/de-ionised water goes...
Mike.


I use tap water and let the lime accumulate until I can see it. Then,
a rinse the iron with 75% water and 25% white vinegar. Let the iron
get hot, and push some steam through the plumbing. Also, I empty the
old water from the iron between uses.
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+clean+a+steam+iron

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150 Felker St #D
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It's *almost* not worth it. More than once, when the iron starts spitting out precipitate, we've thrown it away and bought a new one. I've cleaned them too, but it doesn't work 100% and pretty quickly builds up again.

We've bought new irons for as little as $12.

And you get to salvage a nice heavy duty cord for another project.

Distilled water does work really well of course, if you are religious about using it... at 89 cents a gallon I can't see where it adds to the cost of anything. A gallon goes a long way, in an iron or in cleaning electronics.

De-ionized water is a very different animal.
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On Monday, 12 February 2018 20:54:14 UTC, Terry Schwartz wrote:
It's *almost* not worth it. More than once, when the iron starts spitting out precipitate, we've thrown it away and bought a new one. I've cleaned them too, but it doesn't work 100% and pretty quickly builds up again.

We've bought new irons for as little as $12.

And you get to salvage a nice heavy duty cord for another project.

Distilled water does work really well of course, if you are religious about using it... at 89 cents a gallon I can't see where it adds to the cost of anything. A gallon goes a long way, in an iron or in cleaning electronics.

De-ionized water is a very different animal.


water from a/c is free


NT
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On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 5:37:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, 12 February 2018 20:54:14 UTC, Terry Schwartz wrote:
It's *almost* not worth it. More than once, when the iron starts spitting out precipitate, we've thrown it away and bought a new one. I've cleaned them too, but it doesn't work 100% and pretty quickly builds up again.

We've bought new irons for as little as $12.

And you get to salvage a nice heavy duty cord for another project.

Distilled water does work really well of course, if you are religious about using it... at 89 cents a gallon I can't see where it adds to the cost of anything. A gallon goes a long way, in an iron or in cleaning electronics.

De-ionized water is a very different animal.


water from a/c is free


NT


And FULL of nasty biologicals. No thanks.

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On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 5:37:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:


water from a/c is free


If you are writing of condensate water - that is, perhaps, some of the least 'healthy' water on the planet.

a) It condenses on (mostly) aluminum that is exposed to (typically) 90% return/10% fresh air. The return air is freighted with whatever is in the house/building/whatever that passes through typically very coarse filters. So, dander, dust, bacteria, grease, and whatever virus is in circulation. The fresh air could have very nearly anything in it.

b) Whatever corrosion exists on the fins becomes part of it.

c) And it drains via channels and/or tubes that could be 'growing' in their own right. Even if anti-mold tablets are utilized, *THAt* chemical is no fun either.

Perhaps over-use of condensate water might explain a great deal in your case?

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

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On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 15:41:37 UTC, wrote:
On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 5:37:06 PM UTC-5, tabby wrote:


water from a/c is free


If you are writing of condensate water - that is, perhaps, some of the least 'healthy' water on the planet.

a) It condenses on (mostly) aluminum that is exposed to (typically) 90% return/10% fresh air. The return air is freighted with whatever is in the house/building/whatever that passes through typically very coarse filters. So, dander, dust, bacteria, grease, and whatever virus is in circulation. The fresh air could have very nearly anything in it.

b) Whatever corrosion exists on the fins becomes part of it.

c) And it drains via channels and/or tubes that could be 'growing' in their own right. Even if anti-mold tablets are utilized, *THAt* chemical is no fun either.


so in summary an ideal water source for irons that boil it in use.


Perhaps over-use of condensate water might explain a great deal in your case?


I'm not the one engaging in gratiutous insults.


NT


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On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 10:56:03 AM UTC-5, wrote:

so in summary an ideal water source for irons that boil it in use.


Perhaps over-use of condensate water might explain a great deal in your case?


I'm not the one engaging in gratiutous insults.


No, but that was a question, not an insult - and the need for an answer is clearly demonstrated by your summary. Broadcasting fungicides, concentrated allergens and other nasty stuff not deterred by boiling, much less embedding same in one's clothing seems to me to be a poor practice.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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On 2018/02/11 4:51 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 5:53:57 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I got an old AM-FM pocket transistor radio which looked good and clean
till I opened the battery compartment. Very corroded carbon zinc
batteries were in it. After removing them, I cleaned off as much of the
corrosion as possible by scraping with a plastic stick, and scrubbing
with q-tips and rubbing alcohol. That got rid of most of it, and I was
surprised to find the battery clips are not badly damaged, but I had to
use a fingernail file (sandpaper strip) on the ends of the springs.

Better yet, the radio works perfectly.

But there is still a little of that battery corrosion still in there. In
all the years I've worked on electronics, I have never found a perfect
way to clean up leaked batteries. Is there some sort of spray or a
chemical that will dissolve or deactivate that crap?

Of course it has to be safe for the circuit board and components too. I
use the 91% isopropyl alcohol, so it evaporates quickly and leaves
little water residue behind. (Then leave it dry well before use).


My sovereign cleaning method for this is to use a very strong concentration of baking soda mixed into distilled water. About a tablespoon of soda into a teaspoon of water to make a paste. This will neutralize any corrosives from the batteries - but the material is highly conductive in its own right. So, after application with a small toothbrush or spiral brush, rinse again as yo have with distilled water, then alcohol to displace the water.


No, no, NO! Sorry Peter, you missed this one. And your advice is
normally spot-on!

Batteries use an AKALAINE (a base not an acid) so using another alkaline
product (baking soda) will only exacerbate the problem.

To neutralize a base (alkaline battery leakage) you need to use a mild
acid. Get some white vinegar and mix with distilled (if your water is
hard) water 50:50 and use that solution to wash the residue away and to
stop incipient leakage from continuing.

I wrote up a page back in the late 90s after talking with an engineer
from EverReady about battery leakage:

http://flippers.com/battery.html


If severe, and the alternative is landfill - I have been known to run an entire chassis through the dishwasher (one without an exposed Calrod), or use a bit of lye-based oven cleaner on a cotton swab - again rinse carefully when done. Needs must when the devil rides.


Um, again you are recommending using a base to try and arrest the action
of another base... Lye is a strong base, and bases are what are used to
etch circuit boards, eh?

Running circuit boards through dishwashers can be fine, just skip the
detergent! Seal DIP switches, pots, relays, etc. first...


Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


John :-#)#

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Default Removing battery corrosion

This is a vintage transistor radio, likely using a carbon-zinc battery (LeClanche Cell). They use an acid-based electrolyte. As carefully detailed. Latter-day batteries *tend* to use alkaline-based electrolytes - making most of the discussions herein accurate. But - not in all examples of all cases.

I try to advise based on good chemistry based on the data as presented.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


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Default Removing battery corrosion

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 8:40:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:


Legionnaires bugs are killed by heating above 60C.


And, were Legionnaires' Disease the only issue (it is not), then condensate water might be just fine. But it is not. Again, impregnating one's clothes, sheets, and so forth with concentrated allergens, concentrated fungicides - or the actual spores of same - and various other materials, easily avoided, is simply stupid. Advocating such behavior repeatedly in the face of obvious evidence otherwise is both stupid, and possibly criminal. What you do in your own house with only you as the victim is up to you. But visiting such idiocy on others, friends, family and so forth, is *NOT* up to you.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

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