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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
Posted to comp.mobile.android,alt.internet.wireless,sci.electronics.repair
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Google admits it tracked user location data even when the setting was turned off
He who is nospam said on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 17:55:51 -0500:
you were *so* sure you had blocked google's ability to track you, going to such extreme lengths as changing your google id every few weeks. many people told you that you were still being tracked, but you blindly dismissed it. now you know. You would love that to be the case, but, you're jumping to conclusions out of confirmation bias (i.e., you *wish* it were true). I looked and I don't think it's the case for me since I don't see (yet) anything called "Firebase Cloud Messaging" on my Android 4.3 phone. Time will tell which phones were affected, but this is a good one for Google to get sued on, as it certainly will take some 'splaining why they captured unique cell tower IDs when Location Services were disabled. All we know, so far, is that it started in January of this year, and that it used "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services - whatever that is. I googled it, and I don't think it's even on my phone - but it's too early to tell just yet what's going on. Google apparently immediately said they'd terminate the practice of capturing cell tower unique IDs - so, it doesn't appear to be something they sanctioned (because they wouldn't likely have agreed to terminate the practice so quickly if they had their legal ducks already lined up). Time will tell which devices are affected - but I don't even see the app on my phone - which is rooted - so I can delete it - if I can find it - but it doesn't seem to exist. To other android users: Q: Do you see a process for "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services? |
#2
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Google admits it tracked user location data even when the setting was turned off
On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 23:48:55 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
wrote: To other android users: Q: Do you see a process for "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services? It's not an app. It's service: https://firebase.google.com/docs/cloud-messaging/ https://firebase.google.com/products/cloud-messaging/ You download the API and link it into your application. It runs on a variety of platforms including Apple IOS. Mo https://www.google.com/search?q=Firebase+Cloud+Messaging -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#3
Posted to comp.mobile.android,alt.internet.wireless,sci.electronics.repair
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Google admits it tracked user location data even when the setting was turned off
He who is Jeff Liebermann said on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 19:26:10 -0800:
It's not an app. It's service: https://firebase.google.com/docs/cloud-messaging/ https://firebase.google.com/products/cloud-messaging/ You download the API and link it into your application. It runs on a variety of platforms including Apple IOS. Mo https://www.google.com/search?q=Firebase+Cloud+Messaging It's still early on since the news came out today, but it behooves us to figure out then which apps incorporated the Firebase service. BTW, I think this recent "mashable" article is dead wrong in that they minimize the outrage by saying the unique cell tower ID was encrypted and discarded. "Nope, your Android phone's not secretly tracking your location when you tell it not to" http://mashable.com/2017/11/21/google-android-location-tracking-services-turned-off/ The mere fact the cell tower ID was *transmitted* to Google servers is the breach of trust, IMHO. |
#4
Posted to comp.mobile.android,alt.internet.wireless,sci.electronics.repair
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Google admits it tracked user location data even when the settingwas turned off
harry newton wrote on 11/21/2017 6:48 PM:
He who is nospam said on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 17:55:51 -0500: you were *so* sure you had blocked google's ability to track you, going to such extreme lengths as changing your google id every few weeks. many people told you that you were still being tracked, but you blindly dismissed it. now you know. You would love that to be the case, but, you're jumping to conclusions out of confirmation bias (i.e., you *wish* it were true). I looked and I don't think it's the case for me since I don't see (yet) anything called "Firebase Cloud Messaging" on my Android 4.3 phone. Time will tell which phones were affected, but this is a good one for Google to get sued on, as it certainly will take some 'splaining why they captured unique cell tower IDs when Location Services were disabled. All we know, so far, is that it started in January of this year, and that it used "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services - whatever that is. I googled it, and I don't think it's even on my phone - but it's too early to tell just yet what's going on. Google apparently immediately said they'd terminate the practice of capturing cell tower unique IDs - so, it doesn't appear to be something they sanctioned (because they wouldn't likely have agreed to terminate the practice so quickly if they had their legal ducks already lined up). You would love for that to be the case, but you're jumping to conclusions out of confirmation bias (i.e., you *wish* it were true). There are the legal issues involved, but just as important if not more important is the public image perception. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998 |
#5
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Google admits it tracked user location data even when the setting was turned off
He who is rickman said on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 23:53:06 -0500:
You would love for that to be the case, but you're jumping to conclusions out of confirmation bias (i.e., you *wish* it were true). I'm the one *reporting* the issue here, not you, for heaven's sake. I'm the one intimating Google can get *sued* for this, perhaps. I'm the one asking for more information, for heaven's sake. I'm the one who said Mashable errantly minimized the danger. Not you. Not nospam. Me. All I'm saying are facts. All you've said, is nothing of value. I'm asking others to look on their phones for these reputed "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services. My phone is jailbroken where I can delete anything I want, where I *looked* for anything on the phone remotely resembling a "Firebase Cloud Messaging" service. I have plenty of root-only apps which seek out such things, but I haven't seen it yet. Admittedly, my phone is ancient, where the articles specifically mentioned only the newer Android phones were updated in January of this year to send the unique cell tower ID to Google servers. So I'm the one asking *you* (and everyone here) what *they* have on their phone that resembles "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services running. Where's the value YOU added? |
#6
Posted to comp.mobile.android,alt.internet.wireless,sci.electronics.repair
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Google admits it tracked user location data even when the settingwas turned off
harry newton wrote on 11/22/2017 12:05 AM:
He who is rickman said on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 23:53:06 -0500: You would love for that to be the case, but you're jumping to conclusions out of confirmation bias (i.e., you *wish* it were true). I'm the one *reporting* the issue here, not you, for heaven's sake. I'm the one intimating Google can get *sued* for this, perhaps. I'm the one asking for more information, for heaven's sake. I'm the one who said Mashable errantly minimized the danger. Not you. Not nospam. Me. All I'm saying are facts. And speculation... "it doesn't appear to be something they sanctioned (because they wouldn't likely have agreed to terminate the practice so quickly if they had their legal ducks already lined up)." All you've said, is nothing of value. I think there is value in distinguishing between the facts and your speculation. So I'm the one asking *you* (and everyone here) what *they* have on their phone that resembles "Firebase Cloud Messaging" services running. Which has nothing to do with reporting facts. Where's the value YOU added? Pointing out your speculation which is *not* fact. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998 |
#7
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Google admits it tracked user location data even when the setting was turned off
He who is Jeff Liebermann said on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 19:26:10 -0800:
It's not an app. It's service: Do you know how to tell, definitively, if any given phone is running this compromised service? I don't see it running when I look using these instructions: https://www.howtogeek.com/258300/how-to-access-androids-list-of-running-apps-in-6.0-marshmallow-and-above/ However, it could be running *inside* an app that linked to the API. When I check it with adb, I get the following error: $ adb shell service list error: device not found I can check with "ps" though: $ ps | grep -i service Returns about a dozen services such as: org.simalliance.openmobileapi.service:remote samsung.clipboardsaveservice com.sec.android.inputmethod:ACService etc. But: $ ps | grep -i firebase Returns nothing At this point, I see no evidence (yet anyway) of firebase services on my Android 4.3 phone. Do you? |
#8
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Google admits it tracked user location data even when the setting was turned off
He who is rickman said on Wed, 22 Nov 2017 00:32:39 -0500:
Where's the value YOU added? Pointing out your speculation which is *not* fact. Fair enough. Do you know how to tell, definitively, if any given phone is running this compromised service? I don't see it running when I look using these instructions: https://www.howtogeek.com/258300/how-to-access-androids-list-of-running-apps-in-6.0-marshmallow-and-above/ However, it could be running *inside* an app that linked to the API. When I check it with adb, I get the following error: $ adb shell service list error: device not found I can check with "ps" though: $ ps | grep -i service Returns about a dozen services such as: org.simalliance.openmobileapi.service:remote samsung.clipboardsaveservice com.sec.android.inputmethod:ACService etc. But: $ ps | grep -i firebase Returns nothing At this point, I see no evidence (yet anyway) of firebase services on my Android 4.3 phone. Do you see evidence of it running on yours? |
#9
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Google admits it tracked user location data even when the settingwas turned off
On Tuesday, November 21, 2017 12:40AM, harry newton wrote:
He who is Jeff Liebermann said on Tue, 21 Nov 2017 19:26:10 -0800: It's not an app. It's service: Do you know how to tell, definitively, if any given phone is running this compromised service? I don't see it running when I look using these instructions: https://www.howtogeek.com/258300/how-to-access-androids-list-of-running-apps-in-6.0-marshmallow-and-above/ However, it could be running *inside* an app that linked to the API And at what point are you to assume that additional hidden in-house billing or update-service programming (that can't be turned-off) automatically reveals a phone's location at an un-announced time? |
#10
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Google admits it tracked user location data even when the settingwas turned off
For What It's Worth
Buffalo Springfield (1967) There's something happening here What it is ain't exactly clear There's a man with a gun over there Telling me I got to beware I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound Everybody look what's going down There's battle lines being drawn Nobody's right if everybody's wrong Young people speaking their minds Getting so much resistance from behind It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound Everybody look what's going down What a field-day for the heat A thousand people in the street Singing songs and carrying signs Mostly say, hooray for our side It's s time we stop, hey, what's that sound Everybody look what's going down Paranoia strikes deep Into your life it will creep It starts when you're always afraid You step out of line, the man come and take you away We better stop, hey, what's that sound Everybody look what's going down Stop, hey, what's that sound Everybody look what's going down Stop, now, what's that sound Everybody look what's going down Stop, children, what's that sound Everybody look what's going down Not much has changed. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
#11
Posted to comp.mobile.android,alt.internet.wireless,sci.electronics.repair
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Google admits it tracked user location data even when the setting was turned off
On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 05:40:42 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
wrote: At this point, I see no evidence (yet anyway) of firebase services on my Android 4.3 phone. Do you? I dunno and don't have the time to check. Since it's probably buried the application code, I doubt if I'll find anything. However, all this begs another question. Assuming that Wi-Fi is also turned off in Airplane mode, what the hell is Google doing TRANSMITTING anything? Unless its buffered, to use the phone for location tracking would require transmitting the tower ID's when they are heard. I would think that the airline companies would take a dim view of this as Google's transmitting anything in an commercial airliner in flight could interfere with aircraft navigation, which is the purpose of having the Airplane mode. If some airliner falls out of the sky due to a navigation error, Google's tracking trickery could easily be deemed responsible. Incidentally, there's quite a bit more information available that could be used for location tracking than just the tower ID. The big one is the propagation delay (ping time) between the handset and the cell tower, which defines a location radius. Two or three such delays would obtain your location quite accurately. However, Google could just as easily transmit the GPS location or the individual satellite delays in order to obtain a location. It's odd that they would transmit only the tower ID's, as there so much more available. I should probably fire up the spectrum analyzer, turn off the wi-fi, and see if my Samsung S6 is belching anything in Airplane mode. However, tomorrow is the Day of the Turkeys and I have other plans. Happy Day of the Turkeys. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#12
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Google admits it tracked user location data even when the setting was turned off
He who is Jeff Liebermann said on Wed, 22 Nov 2017 09:32:54 -0800:
I dunno and don't have the time to check. Since it's probably buried the application code, I doubt if I'll find anything. That's understandable. It was reported only yesterday, so, the pundits need to dig deeper for us. However, all this begs another question. Assuming that Wi-Fi is also turned off in Airplane mode, what the hell is Google doing TRANSMITTING anything? Unless its buffered, to use the phone for location tracking would require transmitting the tower ID's when they are heard. The code, as I understand it, only activates when you're connected to the Internet (via either cellular data or WiFi). Nothing else is required. * no sim card * factory defaults (i.e., no apps) * location services turned off https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locations-even-when-location-services-are-disabled/ "Devices with a cellular data or WiFi connection appear to send the data to Google each time they come within range of a new cell tower." Slate.com also said the information is sent the moment two things happen: 1. You're on the Internet (using WiFi or cellular data) 2. And you're "in range" of a cellular tower http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2017/11/how_to_stop_phone_from_tracking_location_android_l atest_to_prove_you_should.html I would think that the airline companies would take a dim view of this as Google's transmitting anything in an commercial airliner in flight could interfere with aircraft navigation, which is the purpose of having the Airplane mode. If some airliner falls out of the sky due to a navigation error, Google's tracking trickery could easily be deemed responsible. I think the transmission only occurs if two things are simultaneous: 1. You're in range of a cell tower, and, 2. You're already on the Internet If the SIM card is out of the phone, then the only way you'll be on the Internet is with WiFi (or maybe also reverse tethering, I suppose). Incidentally, there's quite a bit more information available that could be used for location tracking than just the tower ID. The big one is the propagation delay (ping time) between the handset and the cell tower, which defines a location radius. This is very interesting, as you always know the details that are juicy. Where we both live, towers aren't necessarily close, but if, say, for example, I'm staking out those pot farmers in Boulder Creek who were arrested for shooting at suspected pot thieves during that fire a couple of weeks ago, then I don't want ANY information about my proximity to ANY cell tower to be transmitted. Here's what Google was quoted as having said in the QZ.com article: "In January of this year, we began ... using Cell ID codes as an additional signal to further improve the speed and performance of message delivery" Two or three such delays would obtain your location quite accurately. This is good information to know. Well, actually, it's bad information to know. But you know what I mean. However, Google could just as easily transmit the GPS location or the individual satellite delays in order to obtain a location. It's odd that they would transmit only the tower ID's, as there so much more available. They *are* getting *more* than the unique cell tower id. 1. MCC 2. MNC 3. CID Google provided this quote to Gizmodo: "To ensure messages and notifications are received quickly, modern Android phones use a network sync system that requires the use of Mobile Country Codes (MCC) and Mobile Network Codes (MNC). In January of this year, we began ... using Cell ID codes as an additional signal to further improve the speed and performance of message delivery. ... MCC and MNC provide necessary network information for message and notification delivery and are distinctly separate from Location Services..." https://gizmodo.com/your-android-phone-has-been-sending-location-data-to-go-1820639889 I should probably fire up the spectrum analyzer, turn off the wi-fi, and see if my Samsung S6 is belching anything in Airplane mode. I think airplane mode might still be working - except on some iOS devices with the older OS's (which some of mine are on). |
#13
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Google admits it tracked user location data even when the setting was turned off
On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 09:32:54 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: However, all this begs another question. Assuming that Wi-Fi is also turned off in Airplane mode, what the hell is Google doing TRANSMITTING anything? Unless its buffered, That seems likely, along with timestamps on everything to facilitate correlation. to use the phone for location tracking would require transmitting the tower ID's when they are heard. I would think that the airline companies would take a dim view of this as Google's transmitting anything in an commercial airliner in flight could interfere with aircraft navigation, which is the purpose of having the Airplane mode. If some airliner falls out of the sky due to a navigation error, Google's tracking trickery could easily be deemed responsible. Ever since most airlines have started allowing personal wireless devices to remain on throughout commercial flights*, it's probably no longer a big deal. *Supposedly, not during take-off and landing, while the aircraft is below 10,000 feet, but I travel very frequently for work and I can't remember the last time I noticed anyone complying with that request. As far as I know, there's no evidence to suggest that personal wireless devices actually interfere with aircraft navigation or operation. The whole thing, from the start, was done out of an abundance of caution, not as a result of any specific test results. |
#14
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Google admits it tracked user location data even when the setting was turned off
On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 09:32:54 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: However, all this begs another question. Assuming that Wi-Fi is also turned off in Airplane mode, what the hell is Google doing TRANSMITTING anything? I've been working too hard and have screwed up. I somehow assumed that it was Airplane Mode that was turned off, not Location Services. They're quite different. Just ignore me. Maybe a turkey overdose will help. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#15
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Google admits it tracked user location data even when the settingwas turned off
On 11/22/2017 5:43 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 09:32:54 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: However, all this begs another question. Assuming that Wi-Fi is also turned off in Airplane mode, what the hell is Google doing TRANSMITTING anything? I've been working too hard and have screwed up. I somehow assumed that it was Airplane Mode that was turned off, not Location Services. They're quite different. Just ignore me. Maybe a turkey overdose will help. Here's a video showing all the travel the phone owner did, his voice messages, many things. He shows how to stop it and if you want to stop all of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xgLhjTLn7Q Interesting video, Mikek |
#16
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Google admits it tracked user location data even when the settingwas turned off
On Tuesday, 28 November 2017 18:36:41 UTC, amdx wrote:
On 11/22/2017 5:43 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 09:32:54 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: However, all this begs another question. Assuming that Wi-Fi is also turned off in Airplane mode, what the hell is Google doing TRANSMITTING anything? I've been working too hard and have screwed up. I somehow assumed that it was Airplane Mode that was turned off, not Location Services. They're quite different. Just ignore me. Maybe a turkey overdose will help. Here's a video showing all the travel the phone owner did, his voice messages, many things. He shows how to stop it and if you want to stop all of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xgLhjTLn7Q Interesting video, Mikek I've not seen it so far, but do you really think a large organisation co-opted into providing 'data' on its users would really turn that off just because you ask them? Do governments usually work that way? |
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