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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
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12V Input current required for Inverters
My old inverter worked flawlessly. It's rated at 300 watts (Peak), which
means it's really 150 or 200W. A local second hand store had a 400W (RMS) inverter. The store owner said he's not sure if it works, and he told me to take it out to my car and plug it in. I plugged it in, and the moment I turned on it's power switch, it blew the 15A fuse to the cig lighter in my car. (Nothing was plugged into the 110VAC output). The store owner knows me, and he told me to take it home and see if I can get it to work, and if it does, give him $5, if not, just bring it back. I put a multimeter across the 12V input leads, and get around 500 ohms, which rises over time. I opened it up, and found it has a 25A built in fuse. This makes me wonder if it requires 25A to work, even with no load????? My question is this: How much current is required for these inverters, depending on their wattage rating? I have never seen any of them with the required input amperage listed on them? While looking on ebay, I noticed a lot of then rated at 2000, 4000, and even higher wattage. In fact I saw one listed at 16,000 watts. Obviously these high powered ones need to be hard wired to the car battery (not using the cig lighter socket), but I can not see how any car battery or alternator could handle a 16,000 watt unit. I had no luck looking for a website that shows the rated input amps for inverters, based on their output power. |
#2
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12V Input current required for Inverters
On Saturday, 14 October 2017 23:20:12 UTC+1, wrote:
My old inverter worked flawlessly. It's rated at 300 watts (Peak), which means it's really 150 or 200W. A local second hand store had a 400W (RMS) inverter. The store owner said he's not sure if it works, and he told me to take it out to my car and plug it in. I plugged it in, and the moment I turned on it's power switch, it blew the 15A fuse to the cig lighter in my car. (Nothing was plugged into the 110VAC output). The store owner knows me, and he told me to take it home and see if I can get it to work, and if it does, give him $5, if not, just bring it back. I put a multimeter across the 12V input leads, and get around 500 ohms, which rises over time. I opened it up, and found it has a 25A built in fuse. This makes me wonder if it requires 25A to work, even with no load????? of course not My question is this: How much current is required for these inverters, depending on their wattage rating? I have never seen any of them with the required input amperage listed on them? calculate from output load wattage assuming around 90% efficient will get you an approx answer. It'll be more than that offload though. While looking on ebay, I noticed a lot of then rated at 2000, 4000, and even higher wattage. In fact I saw one listed at 16,000 watts. Obviously these high powered ones need to be hard wired to the car battery (not using the cig lighter socket), but I can not see how any car battery or alternator could handle a 16,000 watt unit. real watts or chinglish microwatts? I had no luck looking for a website that shows the rated input amps for inverters, based on their output power. NT |
#3
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12V Input current required for Inverters
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#4
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12V Input current required for Inverters
On Sunday, 15 October 2017 02:04:20 UTC+1, rickman wrote:
wrote on 10/14/2017 6:19 PM: My old inverter worked flawlessly. It's rated at 300 watts (Peak), which means it's really 150 or 200W. A local second hand store had a 400W (RMS) inverter. The store owner said he's not sure if it works, and he told me to take it out to my car and plug it in. I plugged it in, and the moment I turned on it's power switch, it blew the 15A fuse to the cig lighter in my car. (Nothing was plugged into the 110VAC output). The store owner knows me, and he told me to take it home and see if I can get it to work, and if it does, give him $5, if not, just bring it back. I put a multimeter across the 12V input leads, and get around 500 ohms, which rises over time. I opened it up, and found it has a 25A built in fuse. This makes me wonder if it requires 25A to work, even with no load????? You are probably looking at a surge current to charge caps somewhere. If they aren't directly on the input, the unit won't draw much current until it sees enough voltage to power up. Then it starts drawing a surge to charge the caps and pop goes the fuse. I know appliance fuses come in slow blow and fast blow, but I don't think I've ever seen a fast blow automotive fuse. They have a lot less thermal mass to heat up. All the automotive fuses I've seen had fairly fat links. My question is this: How much current is required for these inverters, depending on their wattage rating? I have never seen any of them with the required input amperage listed on them? While looking on ebay, I noticed a lot of then rated at 2000, 4000, and even higher wattage. In fact I saw one listed at 16,000 watts. Obviously these high powered ones need to be hard wired to the car battery (not using the cig lighter socket), but I can not see how any car battery or alternator could handle a 16,000 watt unit. Do you believe everything you read? 16,000 watts is 21 horsepower. Really? 21 horsepower in an inverter? Is it as big as a suitcase and have a big fan to keep it cool? From 12 volts that would be 1,333 amps. Yeah, right! May as well just connect the batteries in series to get 120 or 240v. If you want ac, just swap the leads over really fast NT |
#5
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12V Input current required for Inverters
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#6
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12V Input current required for Inverters
In sci.electronics.repair, on Sat, 14 Oct 2017 21:04:16 -0400, rickman
wrote: wrote on 10/14/2017 6:19 PM: My old inverter worked flawlessly. It's rated at 300 watts (Peak), which means it's really 150 or 200W. A local second hand store had a 400W (RMS) inverter. The store owner said he's not sure if it works, and he told me to take it out to my car and plug it in. I plugged it in, and the moment I turned on it's power switch, it blew the 15A fuse to the cig lighter in my car. (Nothing was plugged into the 110VAC output). The store owner knows me, and he told me to take it home and see if I can get it to work, and if it does, give him $5, if not, just bring it back. I put a multimeter across the 12V input leads, and get around 500 ohms, which rises over time. I opened it up, and found it has a 25A built in fuse. This makes me wonder if it requires 25A to work, even with no load????? You are probably looking at a surge current to charge caps somewhere. If they aren't directly on the input, the unit won't draw much current until it sees enough voltage to power up. Then it starts drawing a surge to charge the caps and pop goes the fuse. I know appliance fuses come in slow blow and fast blow, but I don't think I've ever seen a fast blow automotive fuse. They have a lot less thermal mass to heat up. All the automotive fuses I've seen had fairly fat links. My question is this: How much current is required for these inverters, depending on their wattage rating? I have never seen any of them with the required input amperage listed on them? While looking on ebay, I noticed a lot of then rated at 2000, 4000, and even higher wattage. In fact I saw one listed at 16,000 watts. Obviously these high powered ones need to be hard wired to the car battery (not using the cig lighter socket), but I can not see how any car battery or alternator could handle a 16,000 watt unit. Do you believe everything you read? 16,000 watts is 21 horsepower. Really? 21 horsepower in an inverter? Is it as big as a suitcase and have a big fan to keep it cool? From 12 volts that would be 1,333 amps. Yeah, right! That's not difficult if you have a 10,000 Ahr battery. |
#7
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12V Input current required for Inverters
On Sat, 14 Oct 2017 22:17:24 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote: wrote: My old inverter worked flawlessly. It's rated at 300 watts (Peak), which means it's really 150 or 200W. A local second hand store had a 400W (RMS) inverter. The store owner said he's not sure if it works, and he told me to take it out to my car and plug it in. I plugged it in, and the moment I turned on it's power switch, it blew the 15A fuse to the cig lighter in my car. (Nothing was plugged into the 110VAC output). The store owner knows me, and he told me to take it home and see if I can get it to work, and if it does, give him $5, if not, just bring it back. I put a multimeter across the 12V input leads, and get around 500 ohms, which rises over time. I opened it up, and found it has a 25A built in fuse. This makes me wonder if it requires 25A to work, even with no load????? 400 W requires 33.33 A at 100% efficiency. So, it could not possibly be a 400 W inverter. But, maybe 400 W peak, for a very short peak. My question is this: How much current is required for these inverters, depending on their wattage rating? I have never seen any of them with the required input amperage listed on them? While looking on ebay, I noticed a lot of then rated at 2000, 4000, and even higher wattage. In fact I saw one listed at 16,000 watts. 16 KW? That will need 1333 A at 100% efficiency. No WAY would anyone ever build a 16 KW inverter that ran off 12 V DC. More like 120 V DC input. Obviously these high powered ones need to be hard wired to the car battery (not using the cig lighter socket), but I can not see how any car battery or alternator could handle a 16,000 watt unit. I had no luck looking for a website that shows the rated input amps for inverters, based on their output power. You don't NEED a web site! Watts / V = current! VERY simple calculation, (when ignoring efficiency.) Jon It says on it, 400 Watts continuous, 800 Watts Peak. Your calculation matches the formula you posted. In that case, if it needs 33.33A to operate at full load, that built in 25A fuse wont handle it. But I connected it to my car with NO load. Why did it blow the 15A fuse in my car? Obviously it's not dead shorted. My multimeter shows around 500ohms on the 12V input, (which climbs over time). Since I posted this message, I connected it directly to a car battery using jumper cables. It threw a large spark (with power switch turned on), as I touched the cable to the battery. Then it appeared to work. I did not attach any 120VAC device to it yet, because the weather is too rainy to mess with it outdoors. But the LED indicator showed it to be working. |
#8
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12V Input current required for Inverters
wrote:
------------------------- It says on it, 400 Watts continuous, 800 Watts Peak. Your calculation matches the formula you posted. In that case, if it needs 33.33A to operate at full load, that built in 25A fuse wont handle it. But I connected it to my car with NO load. Why did it blow the 15A fuse in my car? Obviously it's not dead shorted. My multimeter shows around 500ohms on the 12V input, (which climbs over time). Since I posted this message, I connected it directly to a car battery using jumper cables. It threw a large spark (with power switch turned on), as I touched the cable to the battery. Then it appeared to work. I did not attach any 120VAC device to it yet, because the weather is too rainy to mess with it outdoors. But the LED indicator showed it to be working. ** Likely an "inrush" surge with the first cycle of drive to the output transformer. You said it was "old" so I bet it's heavy too, using an iron transformer to produce 120V AC output. When 12V DC is applied, the drive circuit applies it directly to the low voltage primary causing the core to briefly until steady AC drive conditions arrive. ..... Phil |
#9
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12V Input current required for Inverters
On Sunday, 15 October 2017 05:25:29 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2017 22:17:24 -0500, Jon Elson wrote: wrote: My old inverter worked flawlessly. It's rated at 300 watts (Peak), which means it's really 150 or 200W. A local second hand store had a 400W (RMS) inverter. The store owner said he's not sure if it works, and he told me to take it out to my car and plug it in. I plugged it in, and the moment I turned on it's power switch, it blew the 15A fuse to the cig lighter in my car. (Nothing was plugged into the 110VAC output). The store owner knows me, and he told me to take it home and see if I can get it to work, and if it does, give him $5, if not, just bring it back. I put a multimeter across the 12V input leads, and get around 500 ohms, which rises over time. I opened it up, and found it has a 25A built in fuse. This makes me wonder if it requires 25A to work, even with no load????? 400 W requires 33.33 A at 100% efficiency. So, it could not possibly be a 400 W inverter. But, maybe 400 W peak, for a very short peak. My question is this: How much current is required for these inverters, depending on their wattage rating? I have never seen any of them with the required input amperage listed on them? While looking on ebay, I noticed a lot of then rated at 2000, 4000, and even higher wattage. In fact I saw one listed at 16,000 watts. 16 KW? That will need 1333 A at 100% efficiency. No WAY would anyone ever build a 16 KW inverter that ran off 12 V DC. More like 120 V DC input. Obviously these high powered ones need to be hard wired to the car battery (not using the cig lighter socket), but I can not see how any car battery or alternator could handle a 16,000 watt unit. I had no luck looking for a website that shows the rated input amps for inverters, based on their output power. You don't NEED a web site! Watts / V = current! VERY simple calculation, (when ignoring efficiency.) Jon It says on it, 400 Watts continuous, 800 Watts Peak. Your calculation matches the formula you posted. In that case, if it needs 33.33A to operate at full load, that built in 25A fuse wont handle it. But I connected it to my car with NO load. Why did it blow the 15A fuse in my car? Obviously it's not dead shorted. My multimeter shows around 500ohms on the 12V input, (which climbs over time). Since I posted this message, I connected it directly to a car battery using jumper cables. It threw a large spark (with power switch turned on), as I touched the cable to the battery. Then it appeared to work. I did not attach any 120VAC device to it yet, because the weather is too rainy to mess with it outdoors. But the LED indicator showed it to be working. Invertors aren't 100% efficient, so 37A draw is more likely at 400w out. A 25A fuse will pass that for a fair while. NT |
#10
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12V Input current required for Inverters
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#11
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12V Input current required for Inverters
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#12
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12V Input current required for Inverters
On Tuesday, October 17, 2017 at 12:33:46 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I sort of thought the same thing. But when I connected it directly to a battery, using auto jumper cables, as soon as I touched the POS cable to the battery, I got heavy sparking, so I pulled the cable off the battery. That's when I noticed the inverter's switch was in the OFF position. With the battery still disconnected, I flipped the switch on the ON position, and the LEDs on the front of it, lit up for a few seconds. Thus, some capacitor became charged up, and it's stored charge, caused the LED to light. With all due respect - does the phrase "danger to yourself and others" have any meaning. As described: a) This thing blows a 25A fuse on contact. Even instant fuses will handle an overload for some period of time which is a function of load and duration.. So in instant failure = Dead Short. b) Sure, an LED taking a micro-current might light from residual current stored somewhere along the current path. But that does not suggest that the system is functioning properly. c) Who knows what part of the system is being switched. It is *VERY* unlikely that the actual switch you are using is handling either the 25A input at 12V or the 400-700-watt output, but rather some relay that is capable of handling the current. It is very likely that what you have is toast. http://www.electroschematics.com/wp-...c-inverter.jpg is a very basic schematic for a very low output device - but the principles are the same. You can see multiple opportunities for a short. Cutting to the chase - either you have a mechanical problem with some part shorting to the case. Or you have a component failure that will require replacement. With your well-proven skills, it is unlikely that you will be able to diagnose the failed part correctly, or if you find *A* bad part, you will not be able to discern whether it is the primary cause or a secondary cause. In any case, given the cost of a NEW inverter of sufficient capacity to manage your load(s) and not either drain your battery or melt it down - get a new inverter. And, design the proper connectors to use it safely. I have seen installations with hard-wired inverters installed with the proper switches. No overheating, no stray wires, no fires. You might consider that option. Get it done by a professional, however. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
#13
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12V Input current required for Inverters
"using an iron transformer to produce 120V AC output. "
What other kind is there ? /something like stacked Dickson converters ? Or have they found a way to go SMPS with it ? |
#14
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12V Input current required for Inverters
On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 05:45:40 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: With all due respect - does the phrase "danger to yourself and others" have any meaning. As described: No danger was involved. It was laying on the lawn outside, I connected the jumper cables to my farm tractor battery and made sure to tap the jumper cable to the voltage, not just clamp it on. After the initial sparks, it attempted to operate. I since tore it apart, and found the main 12V POS wire was crammed between the board and the case, and it's insulation was seriously crushed between the case and the board. But the case is plastic so I cant see how it would short to that. Anyhow, I taped the wire up, moved it, and turned the inverter on. For the first 5 minutes it worked fine, with no load on the output. I then connected a small 120v fan to it, and the fan worked fine. However, when I unplugged the fan from the inverter, the inverter red light began flashing and the buzzer began beeping, and it no longer produced any AC output voltage. Even after disconnecting it from the 12V battery and letting it sit for 24 hours, it still just flashes the red light and beeps. I have given up trying to repair it, and bought a new inverter. Because it has SMD devices inside, I wont even try to repair it at this point. It's now in my junk box, intended only to be used for parts. The case will come in handy for some project, it's small internal fan may be used, along with the switch and a few other parts. The circuit board will likely just go in the garbage, because who knows what parts are fried on it. But for now, I didn't feel like ripping it apart again, so the whole thing went in my scrap box. I have read several websites that say this is a common problem with this model, and it's not highly rated. Cobra has been known to produce quality CB radios, but apparently this inverter is has a lot of problems. I wasted enough time on it. Now it's parts ONLY. |
#15
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12V Input current required for Inverters
On 10/17/2017 2:54 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 05:45:40 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: With all due respect - does the phrase "danger to yourself and others" have any meaning. As described: No danger was involved. Famous last words, "I know what I'm doing." I wasted enough time on it. And ours. -- Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi http://www.foxsmercantile.com |
#16
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12V Input current required for Inverters
Foxs Mercantile wrote on 10/17/2017 4:26 PM:
On 10/17/2017 2:54 PM, wrote: On Tue, 17 Oct 2017 05:45:40 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: With all due respect - does the phrase "danger to yourself and others" have any meaning. As described: No danger was involved. Famous last words, "I know what I'm doing." I wasted enough time on it. And ours. He couldn't help himself. You were volunteer labor. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998 |
#17
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12V Input current required for Inverters
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#18
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12V Input current required for Inverters
wrote:
"using an iron transformer to produce 120V AC output. " What other kind is there ? ** The most common is a full bridge, mosfet output stage producing a "modified square wave" output. More expensive units use a similar stage running is a class D to produce a good sine wave. In both cases, the 12VDC input is stepped up to 170V ( or 340V ) DC to power the output stage. ..... Phil |
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